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Behavior like this just muddies with discourse with your inability to accept that people are different. Xarian is making the conversation about this because it is a real issue in your tether's culture that turns people off from interacting with any of you. That you are outright dismissive of it makes you part of the problem. 'Bro that's just politics, stop' is not a valid response when these are issues that make people not want to interact with you directly because you are permissive of the behavior that drives them away.
If you make a kingdom of dirt or sand, don't get mad when it is blown away by stiff breezes. Nobody wants to interact with you on roleplay subjects the require empathy from audience and writer alike because you're displaying, right here and now, that you might lack the empathy necessary to tackle sensitive subjects in a way that everyone can derive enjoyment from.
Only one tether seems to have this issue. I can tackle the topics of genocide, violence, slavery, bigotry etc just fine in public venues in Spirit. It's probably because our community doesn't have the latent feeling of the writer behind the screen ignoring the evil or harm of those topics - or at least ignoring the audience's feelings on the topic.
You want a selfish Roleplay Environment where only you derive enrichment. That's okay. Just say that and don't be mad when you don't have anyone who wants to enrich you.
There's a clear distinction between both tether cultures ( thanks @Iesid ), and I'd like to think we don't tolerate any type of slurs on our webs or combat clans, but I'm not so naive to think this doesn't happen on more private webs or OOC clans.
Edit: This sounded too demonizing of the entire shadow tether. There's select players that made the shadow web toxic and the atmosphere wasn't great for my mental health.
Tell me how I'm doing!
What's the point trying to be made? That I should have the right to impose this RP on these people? That they shouldn't get to stop me from forcing them into a room to RP with me?
Or is it that people are OOC mad at you for doing something away from them in your RP? Is that a thing happening? It doesn't happen in my circles, or even the wider circles in Spirit side, at the very least. Aisling still does questionable things, and while I've received backlash IC, which was fair and fun to handle, I've never had someone try to apply those OOC to me.
Are you guys sure it's not a reflection of OOC stuff? I've had alts in Shadow, I see slurs in webs, I see real nasty stuff being said about players OOC, including that "noose that f*****" comment. That's not RP, and it's not IC. Really consider if you guys are the people involved in these exchanges and if that may be the reason why there's some backlash or general avoidance of you OOC because of it.
I haven't seen anyone be OOC mad at characters for being pro-slavery and pro-torture IC. I've seen characters be mad at them for that, which is fair play, and you can avoid this experience by avoiding the characters that'd clearly have an issue with it. I've seen players be mad OOC because other players are being intensely cruel to other players for stuff like sexual orientation, color, gender, etc. I can't blame them for avoiding players that do that stuff. Surely, you'd want to avoid players that do it, too.
As for the Bamathis thing, the player of the God himself said that it wasn't stepping away due to backlash. This is all speculation on our parts. It was in poor taste, in my opinion, though I'll repeat a point made earlier.
The same players being very defensive over the matter are the players I've personally seen be comfortable with slurs in webs, and saying some real nasty stuff OOC. Maybe consider how these things mesh together.
RP is a group activity, it's a social activity. It's never going to be just what you want to do, and it's always going to involve other people, with their own tastes and feelings. Having fun, fulfilling, engaging RP fully depends on being aware of who you're with, if they mesh with you, and if they want to play ball with you! If they don't want to play ball with you, you cannot force them. If it feels like the entire game is struggling to "delve deeper into darker RP", consider why it is that no one else wants to play ball with the darker RP you're putting out, and what might be causing this from both an IC and OOC perspective.
- Ignore it.
- Laugh at it.
- Actively play defense for the people who engage in it
- Dismiss criticisms of it as people just being snowflakes
Then this behavior will, at best, only continue to exist and further target the marginalized, and at worst it'll get a lot worse. I think it's great that the administration takes a pretty hard line on stuff IN the game (seen Nazis get pretty solid swipes on the nose for Nazi stuff), but if the burden falls on us to police our community outside the game, we are doing a bad job at it, and could do a lot better. And while I personally wish the Admin would act on stuff said in community-adjacent discord servers, I know why they don't so I don't really hold it against them.Can you provide an actual example where you wanted to pursue something that falls under this so-called "darker theme" and you were unable to do so? Or are we just talking some theoretical / nonexistent scenario? Where, exactly, have you been prevented from exploring your imagination to its potential? Where has someone stood in your way?
Or is the question more that there's some strange disconnect between what you feel is "valid" darker themed RP - i.e. it has to show up in a world event or a mechanic for it to have meaning? Because if that's the real question being asked, that's a framing problem.
Look at this another way. You are the one telling your character's story - not Aetolia. Not the so-called snowflake who won't do things your way.
What are you doing to further your character's story? Not "who's holding you back". What are YOU doing?
Things, for me, came to a head when I found out there was a concerted, OOC effort by a (small) handful of people to make my online playtime about as miserable as possible. And, as much as I don't like to admit it, it definitely worked. It's not the only reason I took the exit ramp from Aetolia, but it most definitely made me put my foot harder on the gas.
Kinda like Xarian's meme, there's definitely been some sketch RP out there; people laundering bullying and harassment through "RP," as well as people finding ways to insert their own bigotry into the game through a carefully calibrated filter. That was a thing way back when, and I'm glad that the community seems to be at least somewhat aware of that now. But I would be remiss to see this thread continue on without it being brought up that we've totally overcorrected on this, and it seems to me that any sort of controversial RP, no matter how organic and well-motivated, is (at least in the Shadow tether) met with an extraordinarily amount of IC and OOC pushback that makes it catagorically unfun to play that sort of character.
Okay I'm really logging off now. Have fun, kids!
edit: jk lol why do i never proofread
Jhin doesn't want real life politics in Aetolia. One of these "real life politics" that is undesirable is "Joe Bidens agenda". I wouldn't mind having more strict examples of exactly what Joe Biden's agenda is and how it is in Aetolia, but let's ignore that for now.
Slaves are a sensitive subject in America, but exist in Aetolia. Why are slaves a sensitive subject in America? Does it have anything to do with the history of slavery in America? The fact that the country was split apart and had a war over slavery? The fact that the history of slavery is still having real world implications on American politics today?
Really, Jhin's statement could have been this: Slavery is an inherently political subject. The whole reason why it is a sensitive subject in America is because of it's political implications. Stating you don't want real life politics in your fantasy game and stating that it is ok to have slavery in your fantasy game is contradictory. You either do want real life politics in your fantasy game or you don't. If you want slavery in your fantasy game, then you want politics in your fantasy game.
So let's look at the politics that Jhin doesn't want in their fantasy game. Except let's change a specific portion of the statement to prove a point. Why should it be ok for you to come to the forums and claim that you dislike seeing Joe Biden's agenda in Aetolia, but then other people are being told they are blowing things out of proportion when they say they don't want to see Hitler's agenda in Bamathis' theme? Especially when there were quite a few posts showing how the militarism, nationalism, and us-vs-themism of Bamathis was similar to nazism/fascism, but we didn't really get any examples of Joe Biden's agenda in Aetolia besides the broad generalization that Aetolians are all snowflakes nowdays? The same reason why you don't want to see Joe Biden's agenda in Aetolia is the same reason why people didn't like Bamathis' theme. They don't want to see those real world political attributions in Aetolia.
And let's be honest with ourselves for a second here. The reason why people were able to point out Bamathis' fascistic themes was because they understood how fascism functions. People that don't have the same understanding couldn't comprehend the comparisons and likely even disagreed with it. If Jhin is seeing Joe Biden's agenda in Aetolia, then he has a deep understanding of whatever Joe Biden's agenda is, and that is why he is seeing it in Aetolia. I have no idea what Jhin thinks Joe Biden's agenda is, but if it's something like making people use preferred pronouns, then yeah I guess that is a part of Aetolia now, since people can change their genders in the game.
I would also like to take a step back and ask if we're supposed to be ok with slavery in the game, but not ok with Joe Biden's agenda in the game, then where else should we draw our arbitrary lines? Do you think it would be fun for Spireans to be forced to deal with a refugee crisis as a result of Bloodloch's imperial wars in the Festering Wastes and Mhojave Desert? Would a fun event for Enorian be dealing with a homelessness crisis because all the rich Enorianites have bought up all the property and leaving homes empty while the poor Enorianites can't afford rent and get evicted? Maybe Duiran should be dealing with a group of eco-terrorists using suicide ylem-bombers to blow up half the city because they believe the laissez-faire approach of eat or be eaten doesn't do enough to protect the wilds and Dendara?
For me, the real question being asked in this thread (or I guess two questions) is if Aetolians want real world politics in their game, and if Aetolians are mature enough to handle real world politics in their game.
The initial post directly states that it doesn't want politics in the game, but also contradicts itself by stating one political theme as unacceptable while another as acceptable. To me, that alone answers both questions.
Unfortunately, it doesn't really matter what we want or if we're able to handle it. And I suppose for some people it's nice to attempt to live an apolitical life, but I'm reminded of the phrase "You might not care about politics, but politics certainly cares about you". Politics and culture and philosophy is in everything we do and a part of our everyday lives, even if we don't want it to be. It's in pretty much all the video games you play and movies you watch, even if you don't recognize it. And in a mock reality driven by both player-created and admin-created storytelling, you can bet your ass your going to see politics in Aetolia. That includes Joe Biden's agenda and slavery.
For me then, the better question to ask ourselves is how much of those politics should be shoved into our face and played out by our characters, and how much of it should be some loose theme that exists in some corner of the game that doesn't really have much to do with anything? Some people have discussed Aetolia being a fantasy game and using our imaginations. So why are we hung up on real-world evils? Shouldn't we be embracing the fantasy aspects of Aetolia, instead of putting forth real-world evils as necessary parts or main portions of Aetolian storytelling? Why aren't more people complaining about how the evils in Aetolia should be about necromantic magic or evil god-like beings? This was the "joke" I kept telling myself in my head while reading this thread:
Chud malintented darkie rper: We should be ok with slavery in Aetolia.
Chad evil Shadow rper: I want to summon the Shadow Mother.
I would also like to mention that the irony of claiming to not want politics in Aetolia while calling Aetolians snowflakes (a politicized term), and then turning around and agreeing with a post that basically states there should be more safe spaces for PK, is absolutely not lost on me. Bravo, really.
So idk in conclusion I guess uh, politics will always exist in Aetolia because real people play the game and generate those politics. But instead of having them be main themes they should be shoved to the side, made mostly unimportant, or even mostly removed/ignored so we can pursue more fantasy based themes like Shadow Mommies.
And one final point to make since no one else has made it: Aetolia is a business. It exists to make money, or at least it exists because it makes money. If Aetolia makes the most money by having Joe Biden's agenda in the game or placating to all the snowflakes by making more safe spaces for PKers, then that is what Aetolia will do to keep making the most money. If you don't like that Aetolia has made that turn then you don't really have much to blame except capitalism. I mean, you can call it "woke capitalism" if you want, but that doesn't actually exist it's literally just capitalism it's companies making money by any means necessary including pretending to care about what customers think so they can keep making money. You can blame 'culture' or 'snowflakes' all you want, but like most things, you've always gotta follow the money.
Re: Bamathis - Whether it hit too close to home or not, I respect the feelings of the people that got upset by the imagery. And while I personally don't agree with them, I do like that they got to exercise their right to complain to the admin and actually got a public response and clarification on the issue. (https://forums.aetolia.com/discussion/3537/recent-concerns-regarding-bamathis/p1)
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Is the discussion about "the lack of dread or exploration of dark themes or the diminishing prevalence of villains" in the Midnight Age? Because between the sparse events, player resistance to various types of conflicts, the general monotony and staleness that can arise from just doing Ylem conflicts, I can see the merit behind the concern but maybe it's a little misplaced. I think the issue there revolves more around player agency and opportunity than it is about exploration of dark themes. The gradual restriction of player agency without developing another productive outlet is perhaps the biggest mistake Aetolia has ever made in my opinion. Exterminations, Fires, Wars, Ciem were player agency mechanics that should have been expanded upon and refined, not removed. The tools that we -do- have (Order Wars, Caravans, and most recently troops) could use more love to shake things up and be more fun/engaging.
Caravans could be interesting content generators but it's hard to really say because very few players wish to engage in the mechanic. Many don't like that uninvolved Farmers suffer losses to their hard work and I'm not sure how to resolve that issue.
Troops have soooooooo much potential for content and story generation amongst the playerbase but there's a lot of player push back here that I don't quite understand fully.
I believe the game could stand to develop more meaningful conflict zones, mechanics and more abilities where players can exert their organization's dogma. This would go a long way to restoring player agency and allowing the story to be in the player's hands more regularly instead of the admin's. The zones don't even need to be PK centric at all to work! Guild missions similar to what the Templars have would be great if developed more to have some tangible effect on the game world. I'm always for more content and tools that allow players to enhance their story.
If the discussion is more about roleplay consent then I'd like to say that Aetolia already has a standard of roleplay that we all consent to whenever we log in. The game is meant to be a PG-13 gothic fantasy and provides the themes and setting it wishes for us to explore. Playing in that realm should not come as a surprise or be a big issue since we've all consent to those themes already. However, if you're looking to go above and beyond those themes and explore darker or erotic content, then yes, you must obtain their consent if you don't already know your audience's boundaries. It's really that simple. If you're not sure if what you're doing is beyond the scope of the main game, ask! Most people won't bite unless you want them to.
If the discussion is about player behavior and OOC accountability in relation to bigotry and political beliefs... I think that's a can of worms outside the scope of the thread. Maybe even the community.
The slavery in Bloodloch is a big nono, but we still have slavery in other places in the game. Should those be handled as well and if so, how? As examples, we have the Slaver's Isle, which is the introduction to the whole game. We have the slavers in that bashing area in Albedos I can never remember. And not to forget... Huanazeda, where you not only have slaves.. you have human trafficking, prostitution and drugs. What can/should be done with those places?
I thought the issue presented here is that players don't want to engage in darker RP, which seems to be a varying thing depending on who you ask.
I'm inclined to believe nothing should be done about those places beyond what the story and game dictates. If you buy and play a Grand Theft Auto game but do not like the shooting/killing aspect of it, should the game remove all iterations of violence on your behalf? No. If you only enjoy the driving aspect of GTA, the option to just do the driving parts is there if that's your preference. But ultimately, if it's not for you then it's not for you.
Aetolia is no different. You're introduced to a dark element of the game at the very beginning to help establish the themes and setting the game intends to explore. If you do not like said content, you can choose to ignore those aspects of the game to pursue other things you might enjoy. Alternatively, people can also choose to leave.
Does this count as an example?
Saidenn's personal roleplay does not lean too 'dark' in what most would consider. He is a moderate bookworm who doesn't follow any particular god or tenets of any particular god, is not unnecessarily cruel or savage and has only one public instance of savagery that was met with agreement from the other party. His themes don't run extremely dark usually, even though he does push for "any means necessary" in terms of the Archivists.
I will reiterate what I said, though: I would like to see more world conflict in general outside foci and orrery. Recently Saidenn was approached about caravans and raiding them. Fairly immediately I was met with a fair amount of backlash and worry of "If we raid theirs, they may raid OURS TOO". Which... yes, that's a risk. But no risk = no reward, and conflict generation is a valid risk. And outside personal RP that, honestly, doesn't usually have a mechanical risk (unless that personal rp is side-hopping), nothing really feels... risky.
I do have one very simple and brief example though where conflict and RP both tie into this. While I was still spirit I killed @Tetchta inside the fracture. When he came back to life he immediately sends me an OOC tell saying "fuck you". lol... this was the first 'conversation' I ever had with the guy and probably not the first impression he wants people to have of him but it just made me laugh. Lucky for you, there aren't consequences like this!
Aside from that example, there is another semi-recent one where I don't want to go into the details because I've forgiven the individual and we've moved on. To summarize though, the RP resulted in combat, the combat went in my favor, and I immediately got hit up in discord with a flurry of attacks on my skin color.
1. I agree that there IS a lot of snowflakiness in terms of people being too sensitive, and not wanting to rock the boat, especially where allies are concerned. People seem to complain extremely loudly not about why it's being rocked and how we can stop it, but simply because it is being rocked at all. These types of people strike a particular nerve with me, because it perpetuates the "I want conflict only when I want it, and only if it works out well for my agenda" attitude instead of just being able to take an L.
2. There's definitely a MASSIVE bleeding of OOC vendettas people have against others that they drag IC because they have no separation between the two, or simply choose to ignore it when it suits them.
3. A number of players like to say really nasty things about other players, make up outright lies about them for absolutely no reason, and then act surprised AF when they get called out for it and or the person starts behaving negatively toward them for it. There's also the culture of cliques seeing their own friends do something like this, and instead of putting their toxic, lying ass friend in check, they always defend their friend against the people they gaslighted to begin with.
4. I'm sure most people know that I'm a black man, and not that this is a qualifier (because it should not be), but never have I picked up a game or watched a movie that dealt with things like slavery, racism, facism, or otherwise negative things that often get attached to politics and thought "Wow, I really hate this movie/game and how dare they portray that here." I personally enjoy it when these avenues get explored, because to me these are relatable storytelling elements that you get to interact with and impact yourself. I'd never hold it against another player like @Elene doing something their Bloodlochian Overlord self would do, such as having a bunch of children murdered or your slaves whipped with salt rubbed into their wounds. Aetolia, to me, is easily one of the most adult-themed games you can play and if anyone expects anything less, idk what to tell you.
5. I think some of what's being talked about in this thread goes back to the post @Haven made a while ago about playing the game, vs winning the game. Some people feel as if because they aren't okay with darker themes, the rest of the game shouldn't be engaged in them, or in the very least, they personally should not have to be subjected to them. To me, this is unrealistic unless you just plan on buying a house and perma afking in it to ignore the reality of what's going on in the rest of the game.
6. I'm in shadow webs from time to time, but everytime I have been most people have been generally cool. I'm aware of the few people that tend to be in the webs that show sexually predatory behavior toward newbies and other players in general, but idfwt. Where spirit webs are concerned, I'd only seen one real instance of someone saying something that I found personally offensive which was them (A syssin) making 'I can't breathe' jokes while noosing/garroting people in the following weeks of George Floyd being murdered. It's hard to classify things like this as hate speech though without them seeming politically charged when the racism wasn't otherwise overt.
7. I've felt that (at least in the Shamans) they've been so wonderful and open to exploring the dark avenues that are available to the Guild. This isn't meant as a jab toward anyone but the Guild was dead for 7+ years until @Sibatti came around to facilitate the roleplay that she has and it's been WONDERFUL. While I understand the importance of GM/Admin driven stories/conflict, it's also important to understand that we as players can create these sorts of environments that people feel comfortable doing these things in a way that isn't harmful or toxic to others.
Definitely not a lie. Its still in my discord from when I shared it. Don't worry, I have a thick skin. You're forgiven.
But you know, it's the snowflakes ruining Aetolia, amirite?
My personal pet-peeve:
A few times someone would make it known that they were either uncomfortable or not interested in interacting with my character - and that's okay with me. My character wasn't created to bring out the happy feels in you. I could briefly step out of character to express my apologies, assure them I would no longer put them in a position to deal with the behavior that they seemed to have an issue with, and, to me, the entire situation would be settled. The annoyance came whenever those players would continue to try and interject themselves into Naos' life and his story, as if they assumed I was going to alter the character in some sort of fashion to him more appealing and/or acceptable to them personally.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's not appropriate to force your roleplay on another player, and it never will be. That being said, you have the power to remove yourself from situations that you might find uncomfortable. The entire game should not be responsible for tiptoeing around what YOU find unacceptable as a person. Forcing yourself into a position that you know is going to make you uncomfortable, and then raising the alarm when it happens is distasteful.
DON'T MAKE ME PULL THIS THREAD OVER, TOO. YOU SAW WHAT I DID TO THE WEB!