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RP environment - outguilding
Teani
Shadow MistressSweden
I am all for consequences in this game, as I have mentioned quite a few times before this. I am perfectly fine with characters being punished for their actions, whether this is mechanical or through RP, and I also think that death is more of a nuisance these days than something to be feared. What I don't like, however, is that outguilding is used as a threat of punishment for anything other than the more extreme cases, like "You betrayed our entire guild and fought alongside the enemy to kill your brethren!" Even that feels like it would be more likely that the person already has a foot out the door and should be contemplating leaving anyway.
Guilds, as they are now, are less consequential, since the focus is more on the cities. If someone has put effort into a guild, then they should be treasured. They chose to join that part of the game for a reason, and they have probably worked quite a bit for it in order to rise in rank. Some people even put in a -lot- of work, building a reputation, or helping out with making the guild a more fun place to be. Outguilding as a punishment will essentially throw all that hard work out the window.
I find it incredibly disheartening to know that there are players in this game who fear this so much that they don't dare to play out their characters' struggles the way they would want to. The reason being that they break the norm and that might be seen as bad by people with that dangerous outguilding privilege. This mentality makes it even more difficult to create some tension and conflict between tethers, as there are people in the game that are so hell-bent on preventing cross-tether RP that other players shy away from it completely.
That they do this out of fear that their character's actions might be misinterpreted, or incorrect assumptions are made, which subsequently leads to an outguilding, is even worse. That is not the right way to foster a good RP environment in this game.
The option should always be to interact about all aspects of the issues at hand, creating a solid foundation for all decisions made during the process. Instead of making an assumption about a situation, confront and interact. Instead of keeping the RP with only the person connected to you/your guild/your tether, bring in the other party to get all sides of a story. If that is not your character's inclination, threaten with death! If there is cross-tether tension, and this struggle is allowed to be played out with all parties involved, it opens up for a world of possibilities that would be otherwise locked away if one party is simply blocked from all interaction.
No one should ever be allowed to dictate how someone else plays their character.
If they want to play a Carnifex that struggles with the concept of Slaughter, because the bunnies are far too cute, let them! Are they Carnifex material? Maybe not to you, but time will tell! Allow them to play that concept out in their own time. Allow them to enjoy it to the fullest until they are ready to make a decision, without clamping down on them and forcing a change too quickly.
If they want to play out the struggle of switching tethers, let them. If they want to play a slow learner, let them. If they break the law, RP about it and punish accordingly, but keep away from blowing that punishment or the threat of it out of proportion. If they want to struggle with emotional issues, let them. If you want no part of it, back away. If they see that you are not interested in that kind of RP arc, they will find a different audience, or drop it as they choose.
Enforcing a "higher standard" for certain people in the game, or forcing people into boxes or categories, will only hurt the environment in the end, because it leaves no room for nuance, no room for natural mistakes. This is especially true if people are not allowed the time to work through them in their own time afterwards, or if they have that underlying fear of a disproportionate punishment, like outguilding.
In short, don't threaten with outguilding, because you risk doing more damage than good for the game as a whole. It should be a last resort, if used at all. Try to help make the game more enjoyable to people by fostering the RP environment rather than shoot people down for doing something outside the norm.
Guilds, as they are now, are less consequential, since the focus is more on the cities. If someone has put effort into a guild, then they should be treasured. They chose to join that part of the game for a reason, and they have probably worked quite a bit for it in order to rise in rank. Some people even put in a -lot- of work, building a reputation, or helping out with making the guild a more fun place to be. Outguilding as a punishment will essentially throw all that hard work out the window.
I find it incredibly disheartening to know that there are players in this game who fear this so much that they don't dare to play out their characters' struggles the way they would want to. The reason being that they break the norm and that might be seen as bad by people with that dangerous outguilding privilege. This mentality makes it even more difficult to create some tension and conflict between tethers, as there are people in the game that are so hell-bent on preventing cross-tether RP that other players shy away from it completely.
That they do this out of fear that their character's actions might be misinterpreted, or incorrect assumptions are made, which subsequently leads to an outguilding, is even worse. That is not the right way to foster a good RP environment in this game.
The option should always be to interact about all aspects of the issues at hand, creating a solid foundation for all decisions made during the process. Instead of making an assumption about a situation, confront and interact. Instead of keeping the RP with only the person connected to you/your guild/your tether, bring in the other party to get all sides of a story. If that is not your character's inclination, threaten with death! If there is cross-tether tension, and this struggle is allowed to be played out with all parties involved, it opens up for a world of possibilities that would be otherwise locked away if one party is simply blocked from all interaction.
No one should ever be allowed to dictate how someone else plays their character.
If they want to play a Carnifex that struggles with the concept of Slaughter, because the bunnies are far too cute, let them! Are they Carnifex material? Maybe not to you, but time will tell! Allow them to play that concept out in their own time. Allow them to enjoy it to the fullest until they are ready to make a decision, without clamping down on them and forcing a change too quickly.
If they want to play out the struggle of switching tethers, let them. If they want to play a slow learner, let them. If they break the law, RP about it and punish accordingly, but keep away from blowing that punishment or the threat of it out of proportion. If they want to struggle with emotional issues, let them. If you want no part of it, back away. If they see that you are not interested in that kind of RP arc, they will find a different audience, or drop it as they choose.
Enforcing a "higher standard" for certain people in the game, or forcing people into boxes or categories, will only hurt the environment in the end, because it leaves no room for nuance, no room for natural mistakes. This is especially true if people are not allowed the time to work through them in their own time afterwards, or if they have that underlying fear of a disproportionate punishment, like outguilding.
In short, don't threaten with outguilding, because you risk doing more damage than good for the game as a whole. It should be a last resort, if used at all. Try to help make the game more enjoyable to people by fostering the RP environment rather than shoot people down for doing something outside the norm.
7
Comments
A guilds law and RP isn't set in stone, I appreciate that, however it still falls within a certain remit. If a person wants to run completely contrary to that, then that's their decision. However, you can't expect an entire organization of people who are in that guild specifically for its RP to want to see it changed for the sake of one person.
I do agree that outguilding should never be a direct threat to people or a cudgel to bash people over the head with however, if individuals want to repeatedly cause trouble or act in a manner that brings them into conflict with the guild they're in, they have to accept that it is a potential and likely consequence. To deny that is to essentially give anyone free reign regardless of their behavior.
You also single out guilds but leave cities alone, however, guilds exist within cities and are not sovereign territory and are answerable to the city they exist within. Using the original example, if I as the GM of the Templar allowed the slaver to continue in order to 'not dictate his RP' as you put it, I'd be firstly, putting myself at the mercy of the rest of the Templar who wouldn't and don't agree with the behavior and also the dissatisfaction of Enorian and its citizenry.
If an individual persists on pursuing a course of action that brings them into conflict with both the spirit and the laws of the guild they're a member of, despite numerous RPs and warnings etc then they shouldn't be surprised if they do get outguilded.
TLDR: The Indorani guild would beg to differ.
If you are not aligning with the guilds ideas/roleplay....why are you in the guild? Is it purely to make an uncomfortable and stressful place for other players who are logging in to try and make an enjoyable place. The idea of multiclassing is so that you can play a Carnifex, but exist in your scientific brain, wanting to study bunnies as an Archivist. Or be a weaponmaster Templar who loves plants as a Shaman...embracing the bunnies and their spirits. We are given a diversity that allows us to be what we want to be while playing what we want to play.
We should want to be in an organization because we align and desire to cooperate with their style of gameplay, and work to help the organization grow. Me as a player, I have strong opinions on many things, but Oonagh wouldn't bring them into the game or his style of play....with the exception of memes, but honestly those stay in THINK commands....sorry @Desidora lol.
Anyways, I think it is fine and perfectly within reason to remove people from an organization who are detracting from its growth, causing infighting and a toxic environment because they choose to be adverse to the goals and missions of an organization. I think we should 100 percent hold people accountable for their behaviors. I did as Archmage, and I had roleplay reason to do so, and I was never unreasonable in my approach, offering mediation, discussion and opportunity to remedy issues.
TLDR, dont be a dick, and people wont be dicks back.
I agree. I don't think it would be right to have a Slaver Templar, but a former Slaver who joins the Templar might not be a perfect example of a Knight straight away. If they want to play out the slow transition to their new situation, why is that so wrong? I'm not saying they should remain that way, because they obviously joined for a reason, nor am I saying that punishment shouldn't exist if said Templar decided to buy a slave. By all means, punish away, because there should be reasonable consequences.
What I am saying is that it's not up to you to decide how quick said transition should be. Perhaps the Slaver has to come to certain realizations first, and keeps struggling this out in smaller RP sessions over time. Perhaps he makes a few mistakes along the way, and gets punished, and then makes some new ones, and gets punished. However, if the threat of outguilding for making further mistakes looms overhead, it might cause undue stress and hamper people from actually getting to the point they wanted to see before making that turn. This is the part I think is the most important, if outguilding is ever an option. However, that has not always been the case, and there are players who still fear this being used unfairly. Even if it is never stated that someone might be outguilded doesn't mean they might perceive that as a threat. I just think people should be more careful with it, and make sure that others know that it's not going to be used lightly or as a quick response to something that just happened. That is my main reason for bring that up. Players with the privilege to outguild need to know that there is are good ways to approach it, and players who fear it happening need to know what to expect before that becomes a risk.
So. First thing I'm going to refute is that the general tone of the post makes it seem like when it comes to guilds, guild RP, and the possibility of being outguilded. I think you forget that although guilds are a large part of the game, they're Entirely opt-in. Every org in the game has laws that are publicly visible. When you join a guild, or even afterwards, reading these laws are often a requirement. Why? So you know exactly what you're getting into and what the guild RP entails. In joining the org, you're agreeing to subscribe to the RP, though some guilds are far more strict about how much homogeny they have in terms of the kinds of personalities there are, but that's an entirely different story. Anyway. Guild RP and expectations are usually VERY clear, and if you don't like it/don't agree with it/don't want to play ball with it even a little, that's probably more a problem with you than the org itself because everything is right there in writing in front of you.
Decide to go against em anyway while you're still a member of the guild? Well. Hate to say it, but they kind of have perfectly good reason to outguild you. Why? Well, like I said, everything is spelled out in writing for you in regards to expectations, and you willingly go against it anyway. Outguilding is a bit extreme for a single offense, and most people in leadership will give you a chance. Repeated rule-breaking, though, you can't claim ignorance, and you can't blame the org for 'ruining everything you've established' - you kinda did that yourself.
To use kind of use a more relevant example: you're a member of a Spirit org that bans worship of Bamathis, but heck, you wanna worship Bamathis, laws be damned! ...and then someone finds out, you get caught, and you get upset when the org punishes you for breaking the law?
Don't like the policies or RP of the org you're with? Buck up and find one that actually DOES gel with you and suits your RP style and needs. Seriously. A big thing I've noticed with some players is that they get super complacent or really adamant about their character 'belonging' to a specific org, but are unwilling to change their RP to fit their environment and either just wallow in misery the whole time or just go against laws because they don't agree with it or it inconveniences them. When you become part of an org, you're making a conscious choice to meld at least a little with the role they've defined.
If you really want to be able to do whatever you want and interact with whoever you want without much consequence, well, there's always the option of going rogue. Don't want to give up your ranks, titles, reputation, or whatever? Well, that's kind of the hard choice you have to make. What's more important to you?
Outguilding should never be used because of a personal dislike of someone or because they disagree with leadership. Even with breaking laws, kicking someone out is typically a last resort rather than a first one.
As for the whole, 'orgs crushing cross-tether RP' argument... Hoo boy. Where to begin? I see cross-tether RP happening all the time. Even when I've been a member of Spirit orgs, I've never had a problem finding it, and I've never felt stifled. If you feel like RP is being denied, well. That depends on the kind of RP you're talking about, and this 'issue' only pops up in a VERY few circumstances, though there's two specific ones that I've seen it come up most often.
There's the whole divine worship thing I previously mentioned, with Bamathis being the most recent. I've lost count of how many times I've heard "Man, I wish I could follow Bamathis while being a member of Enorian".
The second instance I've seen the cross-tether RP crushing argument pop up has been in regards to cross-tether relationships. Specifically romantic ones. Most Spirit orgs have some level of fraternization law with romantic relationships being forbidden across the board. As I've mentioned previously, everything is there in writing, and yet people still do it. You want to romance or boink anyone you want and not worry about someone higher up putting their foot down and stomping on that RP? Go Shadow or go rogue. Don't act upset or surprised if you try the whole forbidden relationship thing and it's forced to end - you knew what you were getting into. If you're really hell bent on it, either side-hop or go rogue. If you're unwilling to do that, that's kind of your hangup.
Long story short: for the most part, most orgs are pretty responsible about kicking people out and having restraint in using that power (except a few notable cases where it's definitely been abused). You CHOOSE to opt-in to the org's RP and the role they've constructed for themselves when you join it. Since classes aren't so strictly tied to guilds anymore, you're really free to pick whichever org suits your play style and ideals. If you're really that set on being in a particular org, you do have to play ball with the rules they set. Yes, you're forced into a mold. To an extent. But you're making that informed choice. If the rules an org sets really bother you, then you'll have to think about what it is you really want out of the game and your play.
However, choosing to do so inherently exposes your character to risks and consequences that you must be willing to face. I won't say that you aren't allowed to play a flawed character with personality traits that might run counter to the guild/city/tether you've decided to join - it makes for interesting development, after all - but how far you decide to push that facet probably also determines the impact you'll feel.
Eventually, though, you are still expected to integrate into your organisation and fall in line with their ideals. At the very least, I always strongly believe that such developments of the character's story arc should also follow a natural progression towards it.
Basically, what Elene and Benedicto mentioned. That is my general opinion on it, and there isn't too much I can add to make it better.
There is the factor of people's RP. Some people RP highly emotional characters, I am sure. Some RP highly logical characters, and there is a wide set of people between that. While I don't advocate for lasting, harsh punishments from people RPing dicks, consideration has to be taken into account that if such a person were the one doling out punishments, it could very well be more harsh than you would find reasonable. Just like a gentler character might be more kind in their punishments.
You have to also take into account a character's history. If someone has a history of switching guilds or swapping tethers every couple months, you can expect people to not be as open and free with information, or as invested in that person's performance.
If someone RPs as a thief, but claims that they aren't one and that that behavior was when they were in their 20s. Regardless of how old they are, if someone remembers that reputation they had, they'll be a bit more paranoid about their belongings.
If I decided that Tomi is now a refined, classy lady, people are going to be confused because the last time I heavily RP'd her, she was an erratic, excitable, chompy bug.
These sorts of things influence punishments, behaviors, and consequences.
But yeah outguilding as a form of punishment for failure to match up with a guilds mission or laws is completely acceptable in my opinion anyways. Not as a first or even second offense perhaps but further down the line yes.
i would just like to add that is the point of the punishment. If the punishment doesn't hurt in some way, it's not a punishment.
Besides, everyone in the Fex knows that Rabbits can sometimes be pretty vicious!
Again, I was not saying that someone should be allowed to freely play completely contrary to a guild's mindset or ideology, nor was I claiming it should be a process where the extreme contrast is displayed for decades on end. The time it would take to change would naturally depend on how much baggage there is, and end with something that feels like a natural product. I was saying that they might want to play out a transition period and savor that as a character-building change, rather than just hop and drop. Making someone feel like they need to fit the mold perfectly almost from the get-go is what I take issue with, almost as much as people suddenly deciding to trust someone immediately upon converting.
As someone smart told me, though, I suppose you are setting yourself up for a bit more struggle if you decide to join a guild immediately, rather than simply starting out with a city to get a good feel for it. That might give you more time to transition properly.
Edit edit:nevermind, I can't read
I do understand that everyone has a hierarchy of orgs that they would be devastated if they were kicked out of, for right or wrong reasons, and the more egregious examples of this seem to end with admin intervention... as Tetchta said.
It didn't affect me as badly as, say, getting randomly ousted from the Carnifex would have, but it can be incredibly frustrating and demoralizing. The only real consolation I could offer is that this game is long term. You could be ousted by the current leadership, then return to the Guild at a later date, or move to a better one. At the very least, if you are invested into Aetolia, it will force you to evaluate your character. How much of their actions are dictated by the guild they are in versus their ideals and morality. Being in a Guild helped me establish my character, but after a certain point, she had a personality. The Guild was basically a chat room/loose goal-creator after that.
If I were to be kicked out of the Carnifex, I would be heartbroken.. but it wouldn't change who Satomi is. She would definitely be a salty little bug out to make someone's life miserable (as she vowed to do with the person who ousted her from Bouchard, despite the fact that he is no longer involved on that character).
Anyway, long post to essentially say tl;dr: If your character can only survive in a single guild/city/org, and being rogue in any of these parts is out of the question, then it is time to dig deep and figure out who that character is, and if it is worth investing into.
(Edit:) A lot of us who have been around a while have likely had an instance that feels similar to either being forced out, or just being straight up kicked out. In the instances where Admins didn't intervene, it was very much a "Time to move on" sort of response, if we stuck around. It can be demoralizing, depending on the level of investment you put into the org, but Aet always has another adventure somewhere over the next hill. Just need the drive to climb up that steep side.
My point here is, all guilds need a mix of people. Scholars and combatants, tradition and progression, soft and hard, and above all, all hues of grey. Not everyone is a hardcore combatant with a stone-face. Not everyone is a dusty historian who knows everything. Not everyone is a superb crafter. Does that mean those in the middle are not worthy? NO! We can bring just as much to the plate as anyone else. So please, for Varian's sake, let people play out insecurities or softer sides or slower transitions, because not everyone will change in seconds. I doubt anyone of you would be able to make swift changes like that irl.
Edited because of salt.
BUT.
You need to be aware of the potential consequences if you stray too far, if guild leadership isn't 100% on board with whatever you're doing, if your city catches wind of something and decides to act, or, particularly for organizations on the Spirit tether, if the admin catch wind of something bad enough and decide to step in.
For a long, long time a lot of orgs on Spirit side were headed by people taking a hard line on association even with the removal of formal association laws. Good or bad, they had their reasons. I don't think many, if any, of those orgs are actively looking to punish people for not fitting in the mold or cross tether rp. But they still have to be careful, they're still answerable to their guilds and cities and patrons. All sorts of characters can be valuable to a guild, that's very true, I don't think anyone would argue otherwise these days. But there's a risk/reward proposition for guild and city leadership allowing certain behaviors. Sometimes it's a hard call if the reward and benefit measures up to the potential risks.
They've gone back to a harder stance on this because of admin pushing the "Shadow is destructive" aspect. They don't want to risk the plane, especially after Severn nuked the Indorani guildhall with a droplet of pure extraplanar elemental Shadow.
It's not self-imposed, it's admin imposed, and it's moreso on Spirit side than Shadow side. The only time the admin have stepped in with regards to how a Shadow org is run has been with the recent NPC takeover of the Archivists, which was directly due to OOC toxicity in the leadership and had nothing to do with IC ideology or anything like that.
Boning the enemy is against the general guild/city mission and ideology of the Spirit Tether. You can be friends but even that gets side-eyed hard. Friendships don't get threats of outguilding. I'm aware of that thanks to the cross tether friendships my characters have; I do have a Spirit character.
If you want to take things to the next level and be closer than casual friends or family, you've gotta side hop. It's been that way for close to 2.5 yrs now.
Makes me realize that this could be a topic for the Leaders board - would/could/should we ask these questions in this fashion, it would be nice to have admin weigh-in before taking the reins and going somewhere in a direction that would be perceived as unacceptable.
This argument is not about the fear of getting outguilded because someone or a group of people in leadership don't like you. It's not about being worried about being kicked out for not fitting into a mold you're being forced into because as I've mentioned previously, guilds are pretty transparent with what they're about, what they expect, and in joining the org, you're opting into it. And even then? Most orgs are kinda lenient in how far you can stray from the mold, in my experience, and I say that as someone that plays a character that really pushes the boundaries kind of hard.
But no. What this is REALLY about is the handling of cross-tether relations. Which... Really isn't much of an issue with the exception of one scenario. So let me break it down a little. I've been in pretty much every org Spirit side, and I have frequently had cross-tether RP without issue. Hell. Phoe's got some pretty close friends Shadow side. This has not really been much of an issue because these days, I draw a pretty hard line. For the most part, this is the case for most people, and guilds and cities allow that kind of fraternization to an extent because its actually not that bad.
Intimate or romantic relationships are another story, which is what the crux of this whole topic really is. And yeah. I'm guilty of this myself. Like, seriously. Almost every Spirit org has laws specifically forbidding intimate relations or romantic relationships. And people go against it all the time. And they KNOW they're going against it. This isn't a grey area thing where you're trying to push the boundaries of the established mold. Haaaaa. No. You get found out? Most orgs will give you a chance to come back from it, but really. Stop and think about it. You willfully went against the org's established RP. Which you opted into when you joined. Who's in the wrong here?
If you really, REALLY want that little romance, the simplest solution is either go rogue or side hop. Don't get upset at orgs for having (honestly kinda reasonable) an RP stance they stick to. People will either go with their org's RP or if they don't like it or don't agree, find elsewhere. That's really the short of it.
And if you really don't want to leave your org, well. Like I mentioned previously, that's really on you.
Edit: So. My point has some elaboration on why in regards to Spirit side, friendships with Shadow side people are okay, but romantic relations are not. In my experience, both having been a participant and an observer, it really comes down to selfishness. Yes, you can argue that the whole forbidden romance thing is a compelling story and that enforcing org RP and restricting tether relations crushes that kind of thing. Allowing Shadow side friendships is pretty lenient, but romantic relations are that hard line. Crossing that line is ultimately a selfish decision, and kind of says you don't really care too much about the org's stance or RP.
Cross-tether RP is something that typically doesn't happen. Enorian isn't going to come up to Bloodloch and start trying to have a conversation with them because there's no reason to, unless the admin force this objective (Re: Nesventesh and Baelak). The same could be said of guilds. Why would the Templars dare talk to the Dominion or Carnifex unless it was to make a blatant threat of "You filthy dirty Shadow people. DIE!!!" More often times than not, most forms of cross-tether RP is blatantly frowned upon and will always lead to fighting, anger, vitriol, and ultimately is almost ALWAYS admin driven.
Interpersonal RP are those random moments where you specifically only interact with very specific individuals from the opposite tether. You have theological differences and different walks of life, but it's between you and this person. This is largely different from cross-tether RP because you are not involving your orgs or large majority of people from your two separate organizations. These RP arcs are almost ALWAYS player drive.
That said, interpersonal RP situations do have times where you have a to make a determination of what is acceptable by your organizations. The reason why this often gets misconstrued as cross-tether RP is because now a specific org is getting involved in the matter of interpersonal RP.
Personally, I don't quite care what guilds do to their guildmates. I've been in two guilds, one was destroyed by the Admins (RIP Bloodborn) and the second was well... yeah. In either case, all actions have consequences. Whether or not the consequences fit the crime is a different story, whether or not there's a way to mitigate said consequences is another story as well. In the end... people will do what people will do.
That's primarily what these types of laws try to address because, more often than not, many people will choose their significant other over their organization. Most organizations decided a long time ago that rather than deal with the drama and fallout that would naturally arise from such a conflict of interest, it better served the overall health of the org to just nix loyalty complications right out the gate. For whatever reason, these conflicting interests were more prevalent on Spirit side.
That said - this does not necessarily mean that you cannot have complex and engaging roleplay that pushes at boundaries. At the end of the day, this is more of an exercise of knowing your audience and understanding the value of secrecy. I don't believe there's anything wrong with wanting to explore grey or extremes of an organization's or person's values but also recognize and respect that as you peel back the layers of your onion, not everyone is going to appreciate the flavor or the tears that may follow whatever your intent. Actions have consequences.
There is nothing at all wrong with that. The scenario you are describing is very similar to my character's. Even since being knighted Drystin is fairly pragmatic in his beliefs and about as neutral as the rails in Aetolia will allow. There's nothing wrong with that at all because whatever his beliefs, his actions align just fine with the Templars. In my opinion it all comes down to actions.
If you're still -doing- all the things you did before which run contrary to an org. then you can't expect that org. which has an RP of its own to follow to bend and twist to adapt. Flexibility to a degree makes sense in the early stages of progression when a character is supposed to be in that process of change in the first place, but at least with the Templars there are higher standards to attain knighthood.
I can definitely see certain things holding back that progression though, as they should.
Hi.
Take it as a compliment!!
Which is making people make sweeping statements that don't seem to apply to the normal course of affairs outside of this one specific situation.