Announce post #3128: The future of Classleads

Autoposter · August 2020

8/3/2020 at 1:18
Tiur, the Gnosis
Everyone
The future of Classleads

The next round of classleads is being skipped as we switch to a 6-month format, with the first round starting in January. During this time we will also be considering other options available to us. Regardless, I'll be handling decisions a bit differently, as I'm a lot more data driven. Closer to classleads there will be a post made outlining the changes in requirements. Expect to require numbers to explain your point!

As Keroc mentioned, Nalus is now the primary contact for any of your combat concerns. We'll be taking a zero tolerance approach regarding vitriolic or otherwise inflammatory messages, so please take time to consider how best to air your concerns before you message them.

-T

Penned by my hand on Gosday, the 5th of Lleian, in the year 489 MA.

Nisavi · August 2020

While I think it's clear that there was unjustified vitriol towards Keroc and I think most have a good idea of what inflammatory is, you may want to express identify what constitutes inflammatory by the administration at large. That being said, I have a concern:

With classleads moving towards a six month basis, how are we going to tackle the most recent changes? Will I need to use reports to submit proposals to undo them? Is the administration still working on them with Keroc's departure? Are they being kept the way they are until further notice?

Oonagh · August 2020

To those who know....

You know what to do.

Koda · August 2020

Oonagh said:
To those who know....

You know what to do.

Is this some kind of weird cryptic threat or something?

Oonagh · August 2020

Koda said:

Oonagh said:
To those who know....

You know what to do.
Is this some kind of weird cryptic threat or something?

Drinking game, I lost.
I don't drink though, so I am having some hibiscus tea with strawberries....such a lush!

(As a note...it was if @Nisavi would be the first one to put in their two cents on a classlead related thread....since I don't want to be cryptic)
(Further notes: We bet on the amount of time it would take to make said comments, and if they would reference reverting all the prior changes)

Alix · August 2020

If nothing else, speaking as someone who works in a customer facing role, I can very much appreciate a manager who has the backs of their staff and won't tolerate abuse towards them.

Lin · August 2020

If you have to be told what "inflammatory" means you probably just shouldn't talk about the person at all.

edit: hello forum readers from the future, if for some reason you're coming across this post don't worry i totally get it now

Tetchta · August 2020

Lin said:
If you have to be told what "inflammatory" means you probably just shouldn't talk about the person at all.

Normally I agree with you about stuff like this, but I think Nisa is insinuating that there are times when merely being critical or even just holding your ground (even if done so civilly) is construed as inflammatory or disrespectful by people who don't give benefit of the doubt that they otherwise should. It's fair to ask for clarity in regards to what constitutes inflammatory and/or vitriol when the producer says there's a zero tolerance policy, to be honest.

Czcienn · August 2020

I think it's a good thing in the long term for there to be a perception that it's not one person making all the decisions (i.e. decisions should be written using "We" rather than "I").

I also think we'd save everyone (both admins and players) a lot of headaches if we had some more direction about what roles/play styles some classes are supposed to fill, rather than people just making a lot of reports in the hope of getting something to stick.

Nisavi · August 2020

Lin said:
If you have to be told what "inflammatory" means you probably just shouldn't talk about the person at all.

Because the playerbase needs to be expressly told, otherwise they'll take a mile when provided the inch. It's best, in my honest opinion, to be clear on what is considered inflammatory when there is a zero tolerance policy. Though to dispel any potential insinuations, I did not talk about Keroc in a derisive or derogatory manner, nor would I ever do so. He's a good person.

As for the drinking game and on me commenting on how long it would take for me to comment, my opinion on the changes has been known many times over. I'd stop asking the same questions if I knew the answers from the administration, as the answers impact how much trust I have (and I'm sure many others have) in promotions moving forward, as well as the general state of balance. I was not one of those individuals that was vitriolic towards Keroc, nor would I ever be. That being said, I am allowed to criticize decisions made and I feel that both myself and many others feel justified in wanting to receive an answer to these questions. We just recently had a massive promotion in which relics were offered that just had their value directly impacted, we've had major balance changes now seemingly (by my subjective perception and from admin responses given thus far) left half-finished, and said changes have had an impact on how well server-side curing handles them and require a fair amount of changing on client side systems as well. If I come off as relentless, it is because I'm pretty passionate about these changes, and I do not want them to simply fall by the wayside. Edit: I'll add that many of us play the game for different reasons, thus leading for some folks to be have been less impacted than others depending on what their priorities are in the game. I say with certainty that I am not the only one that has lost the drive to play from these changes, and I know two other notable long-time combatants who feel the same and have not wanted to play for the same reasons.

In any event, I do believe and I have always been a strong advocate of treating one another with respect. It's a game, and people should remember that many in the Pools do what they do vastly out of a labor of love. I just don't want criticism or disagreement to be viewed as potentially inflammatory, as Tetchta said.

Aloli · August 2020

Nisavi said:

Because the playerbase needs to be expressly told, otherwise they'll take a mile when provided the inch. It's best, in my honest opinion, to be clear on what is considered inflammatory when there is a zero tolerance policy. Though to dispel any potential insinuations, I did not talk about Keroc in a derisive or derogatory manner, nor would I ever do so. He's a good person.
...
I just don't want criticism or disagreement to be viewed as potentially inflammatory, as Tetchta said.

Hello Nisavi,

It's great that you're seeking clarification on something that might confuse you. That is always a good first step, to understand something before being punished for it. That being said, please do not include me in your generalized definition of "playerbase" as I do not need to be told what inflammatory behavior means. We're all grown up enough to know not to teeter technicalities.

Nisavi · August 2020

Hi Aloli,

I debated at first on whether or not to respond to you, but I wanted to extrapolate my reasoning in order to avoid further misconceptions and begin by saying that my post wasn't targeted at you or anyone in specific. Let me give an example of what I mean, and why I am cautious about specifically desiring what Tiur means by inflammatory:

I'm going to preface this by pulling stuff from my work, but here goes: Human beings have something inherent to our psychology and how we're wired called "bias". Our biases are molded and shaped by past experiences, how we were raised, where we were raised, how we've interacted with people, our morals, our faiths (or lack thereof), but most importantly in this case: how we've interacted with specific people in the past. Biases are one of those things that we can subconsciously act upon and not even realize the how or why of it. Much of this is likely common enough knowledge, or might be known already so it begs the question: "Why did I preface this?"

Because both players and admins can be biased, and I don't mean in the "X is biased for Spirit/Shadow" sense. I mean in the, "things can be perceived differently on the Internet due to a lack of tone, inflection, and intonation and we may assume a negative when there isn't one". Something can be registered as inflammatory by someone else if the "someone else" has a history or has potentially rubbed a person the wrong way in the past.

To summarize, I want what constitutes as inflammatory to be defined by the administration because players will toe the line if its not defined (as they have with many other in-game related examples in the past), it's subjective, and can be abused. A lack of tone, intonation, and inflection can mean that something innocuous could be potentially perceived as inflammatory solely based on the source. I am not saying that this has happened in Aetolia, but I am saying that it CAN happen and I've seen happen before across IRE.

All and all, I'm well aware of what inflammatory is defined as and I'm aware as to the general gist of what Tiur is stating. What I'm concerned about is legitimate criticism potentially falling under being inflammatory based on the source of who it is coming from.

Sibatti · August 2020

Man it's like this community never learns its lesson with how y'all treat each other.

Oonagh · August 2020

@Nisavi impact wise of changes.... I feel that and yes I made the game knowing your questions had not been answered so it was relatively predictable....

To that end I quit the Syssin class over these changes and ended up picking up Luminary.... since syssin was effectively broken by the changes.... with no real reason other than “an experiment” so I agree with you in that regard and I have heard plenty of people airing grievances like it’s festivus.

Plus I know you can take a joke so I tagged you in it big guy.
Overall still wondering about goggles and the changes as well.

Ehtias · August 2020

WITNESS ME

Naos · August 2020

Honestly, how long are we all going to sit here getting upset with one another, poking at each other, and inadvertently insulting our peers. This is getting ridiculous.

@Tiur is the one person capable of ending all of this, but that requires ACTUAL communication. I do not believe we are asking for too much, and it’s become painfully obvious that the lack of any response is only fuelling the consternation across the multiple threads we’ve seen now.

Please provide more insight into the problems that have been shared over the past week with more than a few tapped ‘Agree’ buttons.

Fezzix · August 2020

My in game organizations and my entire tether are exhausted over the changes. @Nisavi explained it well enough to where I won't repeat it, but I'll say this much:

We're tired to the point some of us (including normally high energy players) are losing faith in the game entirely. We can only take so much of this before we quit.

The anger and vitriol comes from the sunk cost fallacy. How many thousands of dollars and tens of thousands of hours have some players spent on this game just to have a controversial admin decision pull the rug out from underneath us?

Tetchta · August 2020

Aloli said:
...as I do not need to be told what inflammatory behavior means.

Are you 100% sure about that, sis?

edit: YES, RATE ME OFF TOPIC MORE, MOMMY, I AM FUELED BY IT

Kanivara · August 2020

A definition of what is considered "inflammatory" is required if you want individuals to approach with any form of concerns whatsoever. As it stands right now, I know of at least five who have no intention any longer of informing the staff of problematic individuals lest they face punishment for being inflammatory.

Bulrok · August 2020

Dw admin Aetolia will figure it out by trial and error, and whenever a message is misread the sender and their friends can jump into their echo chamber and reaffirm their beliefs that x admin is biased towards y tether.

Naos · August 2020

Edit: Nevermind, it’s just not worth it.

Iazamat · August 2020

Welcome to Aetolia, where the PK is made up and so are the administrations' responses.

Iesid · August 2020

Losing Keroc as combat head is a tremendous blow. His attention was part of why I even came to Aetolia in the first place, as Imperian's combat changes have always been slow and counterintuitive. I wish we had been a better community, as someone else said.

I am definitely not excited for the next classlead round being "data driven", because data is pointless if you don't have the field experience to apply it properly. Hope you find a new combat head soon.

I think this thread is a master class example in why IRE can't seem to keep hold of amazing volunteers or paid help.

Oonagh · August 2020

Tiur · August 2020

What we are looking for with our zero tolerance towards vitriolic and inflammatory messages is for everyone to be treated as a human being.

This means no:

- name-calling
- cursing
- threats
- degradation
- belittling
- condescension
- hyperbole

This is not an exhaustive list, as it would be counterproductive to the point: that being, we want you to think and respond from a cool-headed place when communicating. We understand that you will not like every change, and while this is natural, please remember that we do not make changes arbitrarily without an eye to the longterm health and functionality of the game. We are all human beings, and we would all like to be treated as such.

Finally, I would like to reiterate that I won't be making any changes at this moment. That is not to say that these things are set in stone, rather that we will be making data-based changes as necessary instead of as a knee-jerk response. Currently I am only looking at the cooldown on backstab perhaps being overlarge.

Nisavi · August 2020

Tiur said:

Finally, I would like to reiterate that I won't be making any changes at this moment. That is not to say that these things are set in stone, rather that we will be making data-based changes as necessary instead of as a knee-jerk response. Currently I am only looking at the cooldown on backstab perhaps being overlarge.

Thank you for extrapolating and explaining. I figured that is what you meant, but I wanted to double check. However, as for the rest of your post:

I would say your changes have had the opposite effect if your goal has been the long-term health and functionality of the game. Look, I'm not going to sit here and tell you that, as Producer, you should listen to everything that is controversial in terms of dissenting opinion, but the dissent here is pretty overwhelming from the playerbase at large (especially from your active combatants). Data is going to be difficult to gather when you've deterred a lot of said active combatants from fighting because of the changes, primarily because relics and artifacts that were just put up on promotion have had their value impacted, client side systems were drastically impacted, firstaid still can't reasonably handle the changes, and Syssin have been pretty severely shafted without a classlead report. Shortening the cooldown on Backstab is a band-aid at best, because it still ignores the fact that Shadowslip is pointless now as a skill, Hide is difficult to maintain without Camouflage, etc.

I also don't like that the onus is on us to provide data, because shouldn't these changes have been made similarly with testing and data prior to them being implemented? I'm not going to assume what testing goes on in the Pools, but given the amount of issues that stemmed from these changes like Firstaid not being prepared for them, artifacts not being adjusted to accommodate, etc... that there likely wasn't any data involved, and if there was, it was minimal.

I appreciate that you're taking the time and effort, but some things don't require time and effort. Sometimes, it's best to just accept that a mistake was made and revert the changes, because frankly the refusal to do so at this point just comes off as spiteful and akin to a "don't you people have phones!?"-esque response. I'm not saying that you can't revisit these ideas in the future, but it's best to have a complete idea and proposal on how you're going to change things, make the playerbase aware of the incoming changes, and allow for feedback as necessary prior to implementation when they're as wide-ranging and sweeping as they are.

Tetchta · August 2020

Tiur said:

This means no:

- name-calling
- cursing
- threats
- degradation
- belittling
- condescension
- hyperbole

*reading list*
"Okay, I'm fine, I'm fine, that's fair, that's fair. Dig it. Yea--"

Seurimas · August 2020

Nisavi said:

client side systems were drastically impacted, firstaid still can't reasonably handle the changes, and Syssin have been pretty severely shafted without a classlead report. Shortening the cooldown on Backstab is a band-aid at best, because it still ignores the fact that Shadowslip is pointless now as a skill, Hide is difficult to maintain without Camouflage, etc.

I'd like to weigh in on a few of these points, as I'm one of the seemingly few still wanting to give these changes some room to play out.

Client side systems: how "drastically" are they really impacted? There should be an immediately obvious patch in most cases. Just use the "aff elixirs first" rule firstaid does. Unless you mean they were impacted at all, in which case, that seems fine. The game will change and systems will need to change alongside it. What makes this change any different?
Firstaid seems fine now, unless you're referring to the "aff elixirs first" rule. There's definitely some room for improvements there, but nothing that actually sinks these changes.
I agree backstab's cooldown is too large. That said, Camoflage seems like a silly thing to require for top-tier Syssin combat. I don't have the list of relics in front of me to check, but I can't think of any other class which almost requires a relic to excel. That Camoflage became an unofficial part of the Syssin kit because of interactions with backstab seems like a flaw, not a feature.
Shadowslip is pointless, yeah, but it doesn't need to be a huge part of the Syssin kit if backstab doesn't require hiding. I assume it will get a fitting rework at some point, but it doesn't seem like a big issue if that rework is a way's out while they feel out how stealth/Syssin combat is fairing after the Hide changes.

I also don't like that the onus is on us to provide data, because shouldn't these changes have been made similarly with testing and data prior to them being implemented? I'm not going to assume what testing goes on in the Pools, but given the amount of issues that stemmed from these changes like Firstaid not being prepared for them, artifacts not being adjusted to accommodate, etc... that there likely wasn't any data involved, and if there was, it was minimal. I appreciate that you're taking the time and effort, but some things don't require time and effort. Sometimes, it's best to just accept that a mistake was made and revert the changes, because frankly the refusal to do so at this point just comes off as spiteful and akin to a "don't you people have phones!?"-esque response. I'm not saying that you can't revisit these ideas in the future, but it's best to have a complete idea and proposal on how you're going to change things, make the playerbase aware of the incoming changes, and allow for feedback as necessary prior to implementation when they're as wide-ranging and sweeping as they are.

There's always only so much that can be done by testers before release. Trying to intuit effects on overall gameplay in a test server would require an extended QA period that might not be possible. Mostly because QA is often maligned and there's not necessarily a wealth of volunteer resources lining up to follow through on that testing.

I don't think that's selfish or short-sighted of them, but that does mean that the players are going to be guinea pigs often enough that some changes will be received poorly. On that note, there is something to be said for communication around these changes which has been lacking. I guess, as someone who hasn't been that strongly affected (besides the backstab change), I can just assume relics and artifacts will be refunded/reworked to some appropriate effect in due course. However, that's a luxury I have as someone who is not invested in those issues, so I am pretty disappointed in the poor communication regarding relics and artifacts. There should have been quicker reassurances about the prospect of refunds and why they're not available yet.

But, on the note of communication and switching to the topic of them seeming "spiteful", I think that's a poor characterization. The changes with the broadest unintended consequences (celerity) were rolled back pretty much immediately. The rest have been adjusted or fixed based on feedback, both on the forums and solicited directly. The delayed communication may not have been great, even beyond just concerns about relics and artifacts. However, I think it's worth it to take a step back and recognize there's a process being followed that might make for a better game in the long run. Design space is being explored and data is being gathered. There is value in keeping the changes in. I can't definitively say if the value outweighs the potential good will garnered through a rollback, but it's not spiteful to keep them in.

Drystin · August 2020

I get wanting hard data before making drastic changes. But what's being asked for isn't a drastic change. What's being asked for is to put things back the way they were -before- a drastic change was made so that we don't have broken/useless skills AND so that IRE didn't just rip off dozens of people in a recent promotion and act like they didn't. Just being honest here at this point.

For arguments sake though let's look at the data...

- A recent promotion was held (the most successful ever iirc) where a LOT of players obtained things that were rare at great personal cost and have been made far less valuable by these changes. (see: coldblood, salvage goggles, camouflage)

- The reception by the customers to these changes has been overwhelmingly negative and multiple people have asked for a rollback.

- Multiple skills have been not only negatively impacted, but made useless by these changes (see: hide, shadowslip, backstab)

- The stated objective of the hide change specifically which was to make it more useful was not met and in fact made it a 100% useless skill since it's not even required for backstab.

- The follow up change to backstab to bandaid the hide change actually just made matters worse (especially with group utility). Instead of being able to backstab at the start to slow runners and again if shadowslip procs, we have a huge static delay which isn't anywhere near to one backstab per target when you consider the pace of group combat. I'm sure only 1v1 was considered for this, but I'd argue that the previous version of backstab was balanced fine for both 1v1 and groups.

Nisavi · August 2020

@Seurimas: In order:

Client side systems can handle it with a patch, but it's an ineffective one in my honest opinion that can be taken advantage of in ways that I can talk to you about privately, as I don't really want to propagate potential gimmicks. Additionally, the impact means that classes like Ascendril and Sciomancer have an advantage in terms of passive def stripping. These defenses are effectively "set-and-forget" with little chance of a re-raise during the course of a fight. As it stands, you should never prioritize aff elixirs above health against most classes that can strip defenses. It's asking to die against a few of them.

Regarding why firstaid doesn't handle them correctly, it's more so that firstaid lacks any sort of customization on the this front, leaving individuals susceptible to the gimmicks that I spoke of in the first response. It's an issue. Not to mention that Firstaid is going to compete with you regarding elixir balance if you have client side defense handling. Unfortunately, there's little you can do on this front.

Backstab not requiring hide made it weaker and less flexible as a hinder. This, combined with its absurdly long cooldown, means it will see usage maybe once or twice tops in your average fight. If I see Backstab, I'm just going to turtle up because I know that the Syssin isn't going to be able to re-hide easily. Basically, it just means that what you're doing is going to be telegraphed pretty heavily. If you burn Backstab in order to escape, this cooldown means that's all you're going to be able to use it for. Normally, the Syssin could re-hide afterwards. I didn't really have an issue with this because a Syssin's offense is pretty much entirely active save for Hypno firing, but if Hypnosis hasn't been sealed, then the suggestions are going to fall off and the Syssin is going to lose momentum. The in-depth theorycrafting for Syssin is better left to Fezzix, but I'm already able to tell that this is was a pretty hefty blow to them.

Regarding whether or not Shadowslip will be getting a re-work. Yeah, sure, but how long will that take? Nothing against the administration, but when I am told that something will be "reworked eventually", there is usually nothing definitive in terms of how long that will take and whether it will come at all. Additionally, if it doesn't happen, why should you have to burn a classlead report to fix something that should've been fixed by their own volition nor something you or another asked for to begin with? I've seen enough evidence in the decade that I've played Aetolia that I am immensely apprehensive to the idea of "wait and see" in terms of reworks. Subjective experience, but I've been burned on that one many times before, as have others.

If Tiur and company want to explain the thought process behind these long term changes and what they're aiming to fix, I'm absolutely all ears. However, the lack of communication and the "why" has been sorely lacking in terms of explanation save for Celerity/Recovery. I disagree with some of the few notions put forward already as justification for some of these changes with ample reasoning as to why they do not fix that the administration is aiming to do. What I'm asking for, and this is a common request, is detailed transparency on the design process as changes made by the administration outside of classlead rounds can, and often do, have very large ramifications with no promise of being fixed in a timely manner if the change heavily impacts the class for the worse. Finally, I am not saying that Tiur IS being spiteful, but that is the appearance that this gives off without any other logic provided. I don't know what these were supposed to fix save for Celerity/Recovery, and I've already provided seemingly popular alternatives for what they could've done for Heatsight, Hide, etc. so I don't think it's worth rehashing it again.

For the most part though, @Drystin also captures my talking points in an even more concise manner. We had a very large promotion where items such salvage goggles, coldblooded, camouflage, and others were directly impacted -- and heavily at that. The reception has been overwhelmingly negative and the consensus at large has been to ask for a revert. I cannot imagine what kind of potential future changes have been worth creating resentment, mistrust, and animosity between the Pools and the playerbase at large, but I do not think it has been worth Keroc's sanity or the collective disdain/headache that all parties have had to deal with.

Stine · August 2020

On a slight tangent to the last few posts but still pertinent-

When can we expect the current set of classleads that are approved to be implemented?

When will the remaining reports submitted be decided on?

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Announce post #3128: The future of Classleads

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