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"Econo-me? You Hardly Know Me!"
Rhyot
Bloodloch
I've been thinking a lot about this.... and I think I've come to this conclusion.
Questing/Fishing is the way the game is being pushed to in order to gain anything. When a newbie comes into the city or any organization and they ask, "How do I get to Azudim/Tekal and how do I make gold?" It used to be, "Hey, let's go bash together. We'll teach you how to hunt and where to hunt." People would get together in groups and go hunt Tiyen, Xaanhal, Forgotten Dome, Shastaan Warrens, Arbothia, etc. Now when people ask that, the immediate response is, "Well, you'll need to turn on your quest CONFIGs and then run around the game and learn the quests. Or additionally, you could spend 100 credits and go fishing." No longer do people help out the newbies with map exploration because why should you? The only thing you need to do is point them in the direction of Esterport, tell them to buy a fishing license and then have them explore rivers/lakes/oceans/etc. That requires little to no help.
Additionally, people are being punished for actually wanting to perform in the PVE realm. This wasn't a huge issue a couple years back. Gold drops were good, you were able to gather your own curatives, people hunted together to take on larger areas. Things were good. Suddenly, gold drops were destroyed, the curative system changed and is now EXPONENTIALLYexpensive, and now if you die you'll lose 1% flat out. This screams to me that PVE is no longer a desirable avenue for people to actually enjoy because it's more stressful than fun. You can't make any income because all of your gold will go to pills/elixirs being created and if you make a mistake, lag out, get disconnected, or get hit harder than you were expecting and are killed.... you lose 1% of experience. For most people, this probably isn't too difficult. At level 100, you'll only lose 300k xp. Ok, that's 20 minutes of work, at most. At level 130, you'll lose 1.4M xp. That's about an hours work of bashing. At level 205, you'll lose 5.3M. That's about 3 hours of work. All for what? So "death feels like it has punishment"?
In the end, I feel like the way the game is going is to essentially eliminate PVE entirely as it's no longer productive by any length of actual means. Questing/Fishing is the only sure fire way to actually (positively) gain anything. So if this is the case, why not just remove the PVE element entirely? Get rid of it. If the goal is to push the questing system and fishing system to new heights, then force people to do it.
If this is not the case, why are there such high punishments for PVE? Why not bolster it? Increase the gold drops by a hefty portion that could allow an individual to get some modicum of an income even after spending an extraordinarily amount of gold on curatives. Decrease the amount of xp lost to a mob so that we aren't losing literal hours of work that we just accomplished.
Questing/Fishing is the way the game is being pushed to in order to gain anything. When a newbie comes into the city or any organization and they ask, "How do I get to Azudim/Tekal and how do I make gold?" It used to be, "Hey, let's go bash together. We'll teach you how to hunt and where to hunt." People would get together in groups and go hunt Tiyen, Xaanhal, Forgotten Dome, Shastaan Warrens, Arbothia, etc. Now when people ask that, the immediate response is, "Well, you'll need to turn on your quest CONFIGs and then run around the game and learn the quests. Or additionally, you could spend 100 credits and go fishing." No longer do people help out the newbies with map exploration because why should you? The only thing you need to do is point them in the direction of Esterport, tell them to buy a fishing license and then have them explore rivers/lakes/oceans/etc. That requires little to no help.
Additionally, people are being punished for actually wanting to perform in the PVE realm. This wasn't a huge issue a couple years back. Gold drops were good, you were able to gather your own curatives, people hunted together to take on larger areas. Things were good. Suddenly, gold drops were destroyed, the curative system changed and is now EXPONENTIALLYexpensive, and now if you die you'll lose 1% flat out. This screams to me that PVE is no longer a desirable avenue for people to actually enjoy because it's more stressful than fun. You can't make any income because all of your gold will go to pills/elixirs being created and if you make a mistake, lag out, get disconnected, or get hit harder than you were expecting and are killed.... you lose 1% of experience. For most people, this probably isn't too difficult. At level 100, you'll only lose 300k xp. Ok, that's 20 minutes of work, at most. At level 130, you'll lose 1.4M xp. That's about an hours work of bashing. At level 205, you'll lose 5.3M. That's about 3 hours of work. All for what? So "death feels like it has punishment"?
In the end, I feel like the way the game is going is to essentially eliminate PVE entirely as it's no longer productive by any length of actual means. Questing/Fishing is the only sure fire way to actually (positively) gain anything. So if this is the case, why not just remove the PVE element entirely? Get rid of it. If the goal is to push the questing system and fishing system to new heights, then force people to do it.
If this is not the case, why are there such high punishments for PVE? Why not bolster it? Increase the gold drops by a hefty portion that could allow an individual to get some modicum of an income even after spending an extraordinarily amount of gold on curatives. Decrease the amount of xp lost to a mob so that we aren't losing literal hours of work that we just accomplished.
2
Comments
I was staring at all my chocolates after my wheel spins though and I think the reason it feels so lackluster right now is there are a LOT of bashing buffs that drop, but absolutely no reason to bash. XP is worthless to me, I gain more xp pking than I do bashing. I don't really want racial skills either, and havens are sort of out of favor so I don't want to spend points on that either. And the gold drops don't FEEL really 'there' for the risk/reward ratio (and cost), either. But, I want to gather some numbers before I really throw in hard on the 'bashing is literally garbage' bandwagon, because maybe it isn't!
Stats: - Neutral bal - 21 con - 8809 hp - Arti shield - 32.92% level 123 Audit: +-- Resistances ------------------------+-- Avoidance -------------------------+ Cutting | 30% 0% 87% 60% Dodge Chance | 10% 13% Blunt | 30% 0% 87% 60% Divert Chance | 34% 34% Magic | 30% 24% 0% 47% Divert Block | 21% 21% Fire | 50% 24% 0% 62% +-- Miscellaneous ---------------------+ Cold | 40% 24% 0% 54% Experience Bonus | 190% Electric | 40% 24% 0% 54% Crit. Chance | 49.23% Poison | 30% 24% 0% 47% Celerity | 4 r/ps Psychic | 30% 24% 0% 47% Health Drain | 0 Asphyxiation | 10% 24% 0% 32% Mana Drain | 0 Spirit | 15% 0% 0% 15% Willpower Drain | 15 Shadow | 20% 0% 0% 20% Endurance Drain | 9 +------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ Buffs: - Blue/red/yellow/green orb - Green amulet - fudge chocolate - almond chocolate - hazelnut chocolate - caramel chocolate - mint chocolate - strawberry chocolate - vigor sip 0 mists in gauntlet full fluidcache of health + full vial Glancing into the cache, you see: -------------------------------- Pills --------------------------------- [1712] amaurosis [1835] anabiotic [1296] antipsychotic [1209] coagulation [1522] depressant [1438] euphoriant [1244] opiate [1494] paste START TIME 7:20 PM END TIME 8:20 PMAt the end of my trip:
Stats: - Neutral bal - 21 con - 8809 hp - Arti shield - 47.47% level 123 Audit: +-- Resistances ------------------------+-- Avoidance -------------------------+ Cutting | 30% 0% 87% 60% Dodge Chance | 10% 13% Blunt | 30% 0% 87% 60% Divert Chance | 34% 34% Magic | 30% 24% 0% 47% Divert Block | 21% 21% Fire | 50% 24% 0% 62% +-- Miscellaneous ---------------------+ Cold | 40% 24% 0% 54% Experience Bonus | 190% Electric | 40% 24% 0% 54% Crit. Chance | 49.23% Poison | 30% 24% 0% 47% Celerity | 4 r/ps Psychic | 30% 24% 0% 47% Health Drain | 0 Asphyxiation | 10% 24% 0% 32% Mana Drain | 0 Spirit | 15% 0% 0% 15% Willpower Drain | 15 Shadow | 20% 0% 0% 20% Endurance Drain | 9 +------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ Buffs: - Blue/red/yellow/green orb - Green amulet - fudge chocolate - almond chocolate - hazelnut chocolate - caramel chocolate - mint chocolate - strawberry chocolate - vigor sip 0 mist (turned in) 139 sips of health consumed Glancing into the cache, you see: [1711] amaurosis [1774] anabiotic [1288] antipsychotic [1204] coagulation [1417] euphoriant [1224] opiate [1494] pasteMy slain tracker (hastily cobbled together...):
{ ["a blackened darkwalker"] = 15, ["a gnarled spirit"] = 21, ["a Spellshaper Archon"] = 7, ["a miasma-wreathed electric eel"] = 24, ["Tirahl the Necromancer"] = 1, ["a supply officer"] = 3, ["a Spellshaper Adept"] = 28, ["a misty apparition"] = 21, ["a Nazetu crossbowman"] = 10, ["Lieutenant Gharvoi"] = 1, ["a mutated kelki ravager"] = 22, ["a five-tentacled octopus of jade"] = 30, ["a taint-infested shark"] = 16, ["a vile kelki prowler"] = 21, ["a Nazetu cook"] = 1, ["Commander Marakhi"] = 1, ["a Nazetu necromancer"] = 7, ["a bestial, two-headed canine"] = 2, ["a savage shade"] = 16, ["a sleek black rojalli"] = 24, ["a bound shade"] = 17, ["a crazed Nazetu cutter"] = 4, ["a Nazetu halberdier"] = 20, ["a Nazetu captain"] = 4, ["a gibbering kelki reaver"] = 7, ["a deformed kelki ravener"] = 23, ["a Spellshaper Master"] = 18, ["Quartermaster Kuius"] = 1, ["a savage rojalli"] = 6, ["a Nazetu provost"] = 8, ["an ethereal, scarred jellyfish"] = 22, ["a deformed Nazetu priest"] = 4, ["Ghorahel, the kelki abomination"] = 1, ["a rot-infested swordfish"] = 15I apologize for the data being kind of all over the place, I wasn't sure what I needed to track ahead of time (and had a window of free time for once so I grabbed it!)
Also as a disclaimer, I did not do any quest turn-ins whatsoever with the corpses, despite bashing 2-3 areas with them. That would supplement my income for sure, but I was curious what JUST bashing would look like.
As you can see, I went on a chocolate-powered rampage and earned like 15% xp at 123 in an hour. So my XP gain is good, I guess. I made 5078 gold in an hour, counting gauntlet turn-in and not counting expenses but I spent a significant amount of resources on buffs (artifacts/chocolates/etc) and bashed high tier areas for this- risk of death wasn't there because I stayed the heck away from Tcanna, but it's still pretty awful return on investment.
If my hour is anywhere close to how bashing is (and I was WAY souped up on stats, dealing almost 2k damage every 2.5) for normal people, then once you hit level 100 there is no reason to go bashing except for personal enjoyment, or wanting a specific racial skill/accumulating haven points. And pre-100, you're just bashing for level 100- and I think you're better served showing up to a lesser (that your side gets kills in), because the 3x PK experience winds up netting you several hours worth of bashing per kill.
Final thoughts on this rambling post, why are there so many bashing buffs as rewards for wheel spins etc? Fishing is going to be far better on the gold side of things, and chocolates don't help very much for PKing (if at all), so it seems a little unfortunate to me that the Wheel rewards bashing buffs so heavily (blessings/chocolates/relic pieces) with bashing being in the current state, and while I accept the risk of gambling (and love it), I'd sure rather have $100 worth of credits than miss x10 on the Wheel and get buffs for bashing that will only earn me 5-6k an hour (or maybe 10-15k an hour) when I could go fishing at no curative cost/risk to myself and out-earn without needing ANY buffs.
IMO, bashing gold drops being dropped 90% (I'd have made ~50k before? Math sucks) is an absolute massacre to both player bottom line and Aetolia's. If I want gold/credits, I'm not going to bash for it. And not bashing for it means I'm not going to be buying your buffs (chocs/relic pieces/compendium pages/etc.) because they don't help me acquire anything of value. And then, in turn, because nobody is buying those things, promos that rewards those things won't draw near the attention.
30kish for an hour worth of bashing might be a more reasonable number, especially with cure prices going up, but I don't know how that will jive with the rest of the economy (or if, as @Jensen pointed out in another thread, we can even HAVE an economy when people can just dump credits for sale to amass wealth without doing any work), but I can't imagine a world in which bashing is good for anybody except people wanting to rank on the board. And there are obviously not that many people who do, because nobody is buying chocolates but @Rhyot and newbies wanting to level.
But yeah, I'll be reading what you guys come up with. I need to go run some comparisons, myself (we have commands for bashing analysis), but I think part of the problem is that we split the PvE style and no one caught up. Hunting sentients is harder, but gets gold. Hunting animals is easier, but doesn't get gold. You're supposed to have to decide what you do with your time, gold or better exp. It might not be expressed as well as it could be, which is a valid complaint... we could use some higher level sentients. But bashing Tcanna all day and saying you got no gold... well, yeah. That's the idea.
Before, the overwhelming amount of gold being brought in was the gauntlet you nerfed (which was needed), I think - we still have bashing monsters who will reel in massive amounts of gold if left unchecked but that's...also really not a bad thing. More gold there means they can spend it on all these people who keep winning chocolates- call it Trikal-down economics?
Also, it is vaguely state of the game-y in that if I can only make 5k gold bashing in an hour, that newbie whose guild reqs say 'buy 50k gold worth of gear' is utterly screwed without some player taking pity on them and giving them stuff for free, in which case why have an economy if we're supposed to all be Communists?
99 Areas:
- Forgotten Mausoleum: ~35 gold*
- Tiyen Nazetu: ~35 gold
- Forgotten Dome: ~33 gold
- Shastaan Warrens Kelki: ~35 gold
- Xaanhal (Above): ~40 gold (Named guy and his harem)
- Xaanhal (Below): ~11 gold
90 Areas:
- Arbothia angry types: ~32 gold
- Ayhesa: ~30 gold
85 Areas:
- Fengard: ~30 gold from ogres
80 Areas:
- Tarean Ice Caverns: ~32 gold from elementals (are these sentient?)
- Ollin Nazetu: ~32 gold
- Drakuum: ~20 gold (apparitions sentient?)
70 Areas:
- Lich Gardens: ~20 gold (cabalists)
- Salma: ~19 gold
60 Areas:
- Bihrkaen: ~30 gold (bihrkaen)
*They drop gold both times you kill them. Which is...a bug? I bugged it. It's confusing for sure though! Did I double-mug that dwarf?
These are napkin numbers, too. I'm killing like 3-4 things in an area and taking the highest number.
It looks like there's not quite enough room for proper variance, and maybe that the less often something is killed the more GOLD it acquires too? I'm kind of iffy on that mechanic, if it exists, myself. I also think that, at present, anyone wanting to make gold from bashing is pushed towards low level outliers, as Tiyen I could bash as a level 80 Sentinel and Forgotten Mausoleum threatens to kill me buffed up as I am, if I let bleeding stack too high or mismanage something.
Also it looks like it encourages big bashers to go smash weak areas with sentients for their sweet, sweet gold drops and 0 damage/attacks. Seriously I could regen more health than Bihrk does and I one-shot a ton of them, all for 30 gold when they drop? That's way better than spending 100 gold of pills/almost dying to kill a dwarf in Forgotten Mausoleum for 5 extra gold.
Fixes I suggest so far:
- Aligned villages with lots of bashable human mobs for each city. Torston/Tainhelm for Enorian, El'Jazira/Vilimo? for BL already exist as potential fits. I don't think Duiran protects anywhere, and I know Spinesreach protects 3 Widows but that's a questing hotspot so giving it to us as defendable and encouraging others to bash there might be iffy. Maaaybe the Minotaur village/Tasur'ke. Either way, one aligned village for lowbies (Torston) that rewards maybe 20-30 gold if gold drops. Make it beat ratting, at least, for gathering their newbie gold. No afflictions, maybe a unique mechanic or two. Not open to attack from anyone from the city whose turf you're bashing on, because people would farm the babbies. The second aligned village for high tier bashers (Tainhelm) that rewards 100-200 gold if gold drops. Afflict/damage at ~Tiyen level, maybe a little lower. Open PK to anyone from the org aligned to the area AND ONLY THEM. No Duiran rolling in to kick your teeth in for Tainhelm. This will (hopefully?) encourage some minor kerfuffles that can't get wildly out of hand, and let people also raise some gold doing 'conflict-y' stuff.
- Double current gold drops.
- Scale gold a little better with difficulty.
I know there's a TON on your plate though, with all the things stacking up, and auditing this stuff won't be easy/would require further work, so I at least am not screeching for a fix, and I'm happy to gather numbers/test stuff/evaluate difficulty of bashing areas/whatever as time permits, just let me know how I can help out further.
Thread name ideas:
- Got Your Gold
- Gold Digging 101
- Midas' Bad Touch
- #OccupyRhyot
- The Game Is On Fire And Its All Your Fault
- Thanks, Tiurbama
- Bashing Evaluation
- Gold Drop Evaluation
- Why Is Mass Murder So Expensive
- Every Life Has A Price And It's Mostly Too High
- Think Of The Children I Mean Newbies (can you do a strikethrough in a title?)
- Who Wants To Be A Millionaire?
- Questing Is Hard
- Killing In The Name Of (Gold)
- Wake Up Sheeple
- Econo-me? You Hardly Know Me!
- I Went Bashing And All I Got Was This Lousy Copper Coin
- Minimum Wage
- A Living Wage
- $15/Hr
- How Much Gold Would NPCs Drop If NPCs Dropped Gold?
- Buff Carnifex Please
- "Literally Unplayable" - IGN
- Bashing Subsidies
- I Need Gold To Pay For New Eyes, Thanks @Antehe 's Mod Colors
So if we want to talk numbers, I'm quite ok with that. I started bashing at 1100 this morning (so about 6 hours now). I've died 3 times today. Which is about 7.5M xp lost (because starburst is significantly less than a full death and one death was a full death). I've now only gained a net of +876k xp and roughly 46k gold in those 6 hours. Now, this is bashing a handful of end game areas in circuits, to include the Shattered Vortex.
The areas I bash, all drop gold with the exception of one of them. Roughly 25-35 gold if it drops. Mind you, I have a 210% xp bonus almost at all times and it still takes me about 3 hours to regain the 5.4M I lose upon death. Now imagine someone else who doesn't have the advantages I have. Getting back even 1M xp would take them an hour, give or take. And that's if they don't die again.
When I do my runs tomorrow in the Vortex, I'll track my usage (much like @Toz did) to give a highly accurate image of what I'm using and how much I'm gaining. I don't really think stating how PVE is being negatively impacted by a lot of changes is really bad of a reason to call it State of the Game as it does seem to have a larger impact outside of PVE (see questing/fishing). Also, I'm pretty sure Spiral gives gold drops too, will verify later.
Also, I don't mind a change to the title, I just wasn't sure what else to title it.
I only know of one place that is questing-based that gets me gold faster, and I have a chance to die from aggro mobs there, so it is not worth it, depending on which class I am running. (Maybe two places), but those places have cooldowns. I can almost fish endlessly if nobody else is hogging my spots, and not have to pay attention while doing it, and not spend any curatives or resources beyond buying a couple buckets, a fishing hat, and a couple rods.
Three places if you include vermin.
My anabiotic usage could have been a lot worse, but I have my anabiotic usage set to only eat when I'm below 35% hp or below 80% mp, and I can only handle that because of my plethora of level 3 artifacts that boost how much health/mana I sip/eat for. I also don't utilize coagulation pills when I'm hunting because otherwise I'll eat them probably as much as I eat anabiotic because it seems everything gives vomiting. This was not turning in any demons/quests within the Vortex and just purely bashing (not that I could anyway as I'm enemied to both sides). From a low players perspective, gaining 3528 gold for an hour of bashing an area that is supposedly meant to be high risk/high reward, you primarily gain nothing of use. Sure in this instance, gold gain wasn't bad, not everyone has the artifacts I have, especially newbie/casual players so they would have to use a lot more curatives than someone such as Toz or myself which vastly increases their cost of replacement. Now, 3.2M in an hour with a 345% xp bonus is incredible, even for an endgame player so the experience gain is fine. It's the gold drops and curative costs, along with the threat of losing 1% on death that is the destruction of PVE. The primary problem with PVE is entirely that its punishing a player who WANTS to perform in the PVE environment as the cost to replace all the pills/poultices/elixirs far exceeds that of what you make anyway. Additionally, 1% xp loss on a death for something happening that could be out of your hands or even something you overlooked is incredibly punishing. Especially if you don't have all the buffs to obtain a 345% xp bonus, because then you're gaining far less xp in the same amount of time. Sure, experience means nothing more than just haven points, levels, and overall rankings... but some people enjoy that. But we're at a stage where PVE is only performed to get endgame with the assistance of other people and then ignored because questing/fishing is far more productive, easier, and less risk with supremely high rewards. If PVE is meant to be something that is promoted, it needs to be updated. Change the way drops work so that every sentient mob drops gold and double the gold they drop. This would help it entirely as bashers would be able to afford the ever changing costs of curatives and have a basis of income as well. With all the bashing buffs available, as Toz has pointed out, PVE needs to be enhanced better instead of seen as a stressful/wasteful time. Additionally, dying to a mob shouldn't be so punishing that you'll lose hours of work (regardless if you're level 105 or level 255). The more damage done to PVE, the less people will want to do it besides because they have better means of experience/gold gain than through mass murder.19.31 to 103
110% XP boost
+-- Resistances ------------------------+-- Avoidance -------------------------+
Cutting | 44% 0% 22% 50% Dodge Chance | 0% 0%
Blunt | 34% 0% 22% 41% Divert Chance | 30% 30%
Magic | 30% 0% 0% 30% Divert Block | 9% 9%
Fire | 30% 0% 0% 30% +-- Miscellaneous ---------------------+
Cold | 40% 0% 0% 40% Experience Bonus | 110%
Electric | 20% 0% 0% 20% Crit. Chance | 47.23%
Poison | 20% 0% 0% 20% Celerity | 3 r/ps
Psychic | 20% 9% 0% 27% Health Drain | 0
Asphyxiation | 10% 0% 0% 10% Mana Drain | 0
Spirit | 20% 0% 0% 20% Willpower Drain | 0
Shadow | 10% 0% 0% 10% Endurance Drain | 0
+------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Resistances: Defences, Miniskills, Armour
Avoidance: PvP, PvE
+------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Elixirs
[ 50] levitation [ 34] immunity [ 6] frost
[ 46] antivenin [ 43] health [ 44] mana
[ 38] speed
You are carrying 3 empty vials.
==============================[ Elixirs ]==============================
[ 400] an elixir of health [ 800] an elixir of mana
[ 1391] an elixir of levitation [ 1500] an elixir of immunity
[ 1391] an elixir of antivenin [ 1391] an elixir of speed
[ 1441] an elixir of frost
==============================[ Poultices ]==============================
[ 1500] an epidermal poultice [ 1350] a mending poultice
[ 1350] a caloric poultice [ 1500] a restoration poultice
[ 1350] a mass poultice
-------------------------------- Pills ---------------------------------
[ 300] acuity [ 298] amaurosis [ 344] anabiotic
[ 240] antipsychotic [ 230] coagulation [ 289] decongestant
[ 291] depressant [ 230] euphoriant [ 110] kawhepill
[ 213] opiate [ 281] ototoxin [ 308] panacea
[ 172] paste [ 308] steroid [ 171] stimulant
[ 322] thanatonin [ 150] waterbreathing
Buffs:
Wheel XP Bonus
Blue Orb
White Amulet
Start Time: 10:50 AM
End Time: 11:13 AM - Death to Nazetu Captain
Area Hunted: Tiyen Esityi
Starting Gold: 625
Ending Gold : 1868
Gold Gained: 1,243
Sips used: 243 Health, 11 Mana,
Pills used: 113 Anabiotic, 2 Coagulation, 2 Euphoriant
Ending XP: 25.91 to 103
Elixirs
[ 50] levitation [ 34] immunity [ 6] frost
[ 46] antivenin [ 28] health [ 33] mana
[ 38] speed
==============================[ Elixirs ]==============================
[ 300] an elixir of health [ 800] an elixir of mana
[ 1391] an elixir of levitation [ 1500] an elixir of immunity
[ 1391] an elixir of antivenin [ 1391] an elixir of speed
[ 1441] an elixir of frost
==============================[ Poultices ]==============================
[ 1500] an epidermal poultice [ 1350] a mending poultice
[ 1350] a caloric poultice [ 1500] a restoration poultice
[ 1350] a mass poultice
==============================[ Venoms ]==============================
[ 1100] the venom prefarar [ 1400] the venom oculus
-------------------------------- Pills ---------------------------------
[ 300] acuity [ 298] amaurosis [ 231] anabiotic
[ 240] antipsychotic [ 228] coagulation [ 289] decongestant
[ 291] depressant [ 228] euphoriant [ 110] kawhepill
[ 213] opiate [ 281] ototoxin [ 308] panacea
[ 172] paste [ 308] steroid [ 171] stimulant
[ 322] thanatonin [ 150] waterbreathing
56447 Shachalai a refill of an elixir of health 6gp x 6 = 36
56447 Shachalai a refill of an elixir of mana 6gp x = 6
56468 Lexen an anabiotic pill 14gp x 113 = 1582
56439 Kylan an euphoriant pill 11gp x 2 = 22
COAGULANT NOT SOLD IN ESTERPORT OR ENORIAN - No Information
Total curatives spent in Gold: 1646
Total gold made during hunt : 1243
Net loss of : 403
403 gold lost in 20 minutes of hunting
This is a typical hunting trip for me.
I an an unartifacted Ascendril, it was even worse before endgame.
I thought I would present this as an honest study against those who are posting who have artifacts to help benefit them hunting, this is the normal player, this is the person trying to get into the game and start to join our community, this is the struggle they face.
I appreciate your taking the time to read over this.
I also want to add, with my low health pool, as well as no artifacts to assist me...I have to set my anabiotic to a higher percentage for use, or my ability to hunt would be incredibly difficult, I already as you can see, can survive possibly an hour, in this case 20 minutes in Tiyen, with the fact that I only have a reflection pool of 3 reflections at a time, my survival is pretty much based on RNG, since I dont even put up a reflection unless my health goes into the red. It absolutely is not worth the risk vs ..really no reward to bash
As an example if you join Brotherhood of Steel, they will not give you their best power armor but you will get the base model, access to variety of energy weapons, plus a bed and their training. Perhaps this whole issue might be with the guild management and even city management. The leaders of the game are supposed to create jobs for their citizens and members. Create your own quests, give wages and stop making newbies feel like they are getting handouts.
This is not communism at all. The very thinking that people give stuff in pity means something is wrong with the management of organizations. Imagine if you are volunteered to the army but get told that you have to buy your uniform, your arms and armor then proceed to pay for everything you eat in the mess hall while you are still a taxpayer...yeah no? So it is not communism to provide for your members, it is your duty as an organization.
Basically, any class that makes use of venoms, has high cost on their gear, or has a secondary cost (arrows and such). Especially if forgers stress those extra points in the cost of the gear (10k for a 180 speed dirk comes to mind).
Also, newbies don't start with anything in their rifts, so you have to take into account the cost of full pill/elixir/salve.
I'm pretty sure @Toz is talking about going from no gear to full gear (Academy might negate some of that cost, though)
Edit: Considering the amount of effort certain things require, specific items will not be discounted. Like the Fex, we subsidize weapons, armor, and uniforms. The rest? Eh. People with a closer hand on the shops can speak to that.
Also Also! We gotta take into account, the Brotherhood of Steel only give Knights+ Power Armor. Not everyone gets a suit. Hell, if it weren't a game, I bet you that reaching the rank of Knight wouldn't even guarantee you a suit of Power Armor, because that stuff is rare and difficult to replicate, at best!
Weapons and gear, though, that stuff is standard issue, I do agree.
As for the last... about the giving people jobs.. the difficulty there is that, as far as I know (and I could be wrong), there just isn't a need to give newbies jobs. I mean.. if Spinesreach got raided on occasion by bandits (just as a fun little thing that can happen), I'm sure we can have fun little bounties to throw at them and a reward for people who bring X bandit corpses.. but there just isn't any reason to do it unless you make something up. Again, doable, but this is why I'm not in charge of that.
Most of the stuff that the city 'needs' doing are things locked behind a paywall of acquiring tradeskills and such.
I suppose the most we'd need is ylem turnin reward-level stuff, and we already do things like that.
I'd be all for the admins letting us sell an endless supply of generic, trash weapons and field plate for free in the Guild Shop, or at the Shadow Keep for the Carnifex. That'd be awesome, because it's sub-optimal and still rewards forgers for supplying quality product. But god... I couldn't just give some newbie a weapon, for free, that it took me 5000 steel just to acquire 3 of. (pulling those figures as a semi-quote from a forger I know) The trash stuff, though? That'd be easy enough for me to give away.
Now back to Aetolia stuff... Magi classes can have their crystals practically for free unless they added the folding pearl mechanic back. There are enough rich Syssin players who can drown you in poisons and if the guild will not provide a modicum of poisons and teach how to utilize them...well...why it is a guild even? And most of those costs will be associated with PvP rather then PvE.
Ylem kind of systems are soulless and akin to fetch quests in single player games. They are radiant quests, quests that matter little.
By making jobs I mean acting like a single player quest giver. You provide a task and then reward the behaviour which may be important for the development of character or the guild. More detailed then a simple kill, fetch, acquire quest. For example, giving a "profiling" job to a Syssin initiate and then offering compensation for the written report is one example. While doing Spirean Gazette stuff, I for example pay good enough for a reasonable amount of effort. Do I absolutely need to do that? I can pretty much learn things around myself with an inquiry...but there is importance in offering different avenues. Sometimes though when I am away from the matters, that keeps me in the loop and actually a helpful thing.
Another example, why mercenary jobs or RP would not be profitable? Because of the current conflict system and PvP rules. Also people tend to issue first rather then exploring more commercial avenues. In a fantasy world, a merchant would hire mercenaries for the road or if someone goes to an expedition they would hire some muscle for the dangers ahead.
There are so many ways to create jobs and reward player participation, it is mind-boggling in my opinion.
By the way, it is a choice that you get 3 quality weapons from 5000 steel or a lot more trash ones for the same amount. It would not be harmful to have a trash weapon budget, I suppose. If necessary, put some damn taxes on citizens! They have been such freeloaders for a long while! For the good of the Republic, comrade!
When you state something as an issue which relates to economics, you have to think about the whole of the picture. You cannot just spout off some numbers and then make your case about that people ail from lack of PvE gain.
The MENTALITY that I am asking for handout is STUPID at best. If you are not able to cover your lesser members, creating avenues of commerce and gain then why are you even occupying leadership positions? You are clearly doing a bad job.
People are not punished for PvE. There are several PvE quests which give you enough gold. Killing the mob in Arbothia? Easy 5k. Leading the wife of the mob outside, easy 1k. Hunt some slavers for Olek in Helba? 3k just for capping 20 mobs. And if you add some quests here and there, you are getting a very rewarding outcome. Heck, if you are Spirean, you are eligible for 1k gold everyday. Just you have to move your ass over there.
You have every opportunity to make some gold and the game is good to you when you seize those opportunities. And that is by definition your duty as a leader to provide to less wealthy members of your organization.
TL; DR
Quit complaining and play the game. And make it better for others instead of asking HANDOUTS from Admin.
The problem with numbers is that they can be presented in such a way that one can either present a non-existent problem or mask an existing problem. Let us run numbers:
I can craft loads of pills: So my cost for pills is 0 in gold.
I do not need bashing buffs: So my cost in bashing chocolates is 0 in gold.
I need only health/mana refills along a lesser amount of other refills: So let us say per refill from 5 gold. I spent 1000/5 = 200 refills and 1k gold.
I bashed for 4 hours. Gained 25% experience and 1 Haven point.
HAVENS BUY POINTS
- It costs 200k gold per point for the first five points, then 400k
per point for the next five, then 600k for the next five and so on.
There you go. PvE is very rewarding by numbers game. Whether I can use those points or not is irrelevant because the number giving players have deliberately inflated the costs of PvEing and they have detached its relation to quests. Surely you will not get anything by bashing on mobs incessantly, but it is more then possible to gain both XP and gold by catching a mix of activities.
So in that sense, I find your numbers highly dishonest in presentation.
You also discounted the time time investment needed to make those pills, especially if you're not using ice or ash.
When I first joined the game, I was able to bash to get what I needed for the guild. To progress, I needed at least 3k for donations, I needed all my curatives, I needed a variety of weapons and armor (some for bashing, some for pk) I needed a uniform, and I needed to be able to keep fed, before I reached level 80. It adds up.
Nowadays, I make my gold via crafting, I don't care about leveling and the xp you gain from pk is more than enough to scratch my itch, but I'm far more concerned about newbies trying to gather gold. I give out gold to a lot of newbies and Enorian is getting a lot of them. So, yes, while I COULD waste their time by giving them some quest that might just end up with them dying and losing more xp that I was attempting to help them gain, more often than not? I simply give them what they need, especially Templar.
But new players shouldn't HAVE to rely on handouts, but then you have an armor/weapon based class that requires a lot of variety and a lot of venoms, you NEED to be able to make money and fishing also has costs to get in to. So what are we left with?
Well, we're left with newbies bashing and bashing, hoping to finally get a little bit of gold in their pockets, only to have to buy more curatives and lose it all because, again, commodities are still an issue. People are charging out the nose for them so, while you can make your own pills and it's not an issue for you? It's an issue for newbies.
Also? Most forgers I know won't sell shit that's less than ideal, because people rarely buy it. It's bad show to put out something that isn't up to snuff, and nobody wants one person to see their shitty wares up for sale and go "eh, won't buy from them if that's all they can do"
I'm also curious about fastest route to 5k/10k/15k- I was only getting 1 gold per from James in the Volcano per essence which was kind of a gut punch. With bashing turn in quests, how fast can you get to a goal amount or how far can you get in an hour?
Edit: also note if you're evil and bashing at night, we get a gold boost then.
Regardless, a guild providing arms and armor along some wages for other necessities is not a handout. A player running up to me and dumping 10k gold in my hands, now that is a handout and immersion breaking. Guilds are collectives with commercial strength and their members can generate enough wealth to kit their newbies in a RP-friendly manner.
Back then when I was still in Sciomancers, I would kit newbies out with necessities and make it appear as a standard procedure for the guild. So they will not feel obliged or something to me.
Ok, so take that argument away, say the novice gets all the gear they need initially to set them up to hunt and get going. And then they start hunting to get going. While we don't have any specific data that is showcasing the experience of someone who is < 100, what we have is @Oonagh showing his own experience as unartifacted player. To review his post and see his data, click the spoiler.
The point is, hunting has become expensive due to the economy of the game, which was tweaked to reduce the amount of gold in the game, and now provides minimal value to participate in if you want anything other than experience for the time.
This assertion is then made that promotions geared towards hunting should not be expected to do overly well here in Aetolia. I don't actually know what the numbers look like and if that's true or not. I know I personally am not inspired to buy into promotions when it looks like the majority of the rewards are hunting boons. The only thing hunting boons provide for me are a bank of stuff to give away to future players. This has value to me but not enough to spend anything other than gold earned in game.
I have way too many utility arties. I need a sip ring or something x.x
I'll add up the costs of buying all my gear (if I can even afford it, gawd. So poor. Might start with Sciomancer and Shapeshifter and grind some gold quest stuff to get starter funds).
Full disclosure, though, I'm lv. 125. Just super squishy/slow compared to you behemoths @Rhyot @Toz
Hi.
My personal favourites:
- Midas' Bad Touch
- Why Is Mass Murder So Expensive
- Think Of The
ChildrenNewbies!!- Econo-me? You Hardly Know Me!
- "Literally Unplayable" - IGN
Relevant artifacts: Sip 2, Enhance 2, Con 2, Int 2, Mage Bash 2, Potence 1, Crit 1. Artifact shield. Protection. Antiquated Gauntlet Level 2 (offbal absorb, 10% chance of double mist) Permanent tree tattoo to reduce some cure usage. Health augmetics. 19 int, 16 con Audit: (Includes ceruleanorb) +-- Resistances ------------------------+-- Avoidance -------------------------+ Cutting | 44% 0% 46% 57% Dodge Chance | 14% 17% Blunt | 44% 0% 46% 57% Divert Chance | 30% 30% Magic | 30% 24% 0% 47% Divert Block | 3% 3% Fire | 45% 24% 0% 58% +-- Miscellaneous ---------------------+ Cold | 30% 24% 0% 47% Experience Bonus | 0% Electric | 20% 24% 0% 39% Crit. Chance | 49.23% Poison | 20% 24% 0% 39% Celerity | 3 r/ps Psychic | 10% 24% 0% 32% Health Drain | 0 Asphyxiation | 10% 24% 0% 32% Mana Drain | 0 Spirit | 20% 0% 0% 20% Willpower Drain | 0 Shadow | 10% 0% 0% 10% Endurance Drain | 0 +------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ Resistances: Defences, Miniskills, Armour Avoidance: PvP, PvE +------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ Anabiotic at 80% health because I'm not Rhyot. Location: The Shattered Vortex, only killing Aztob and Chaos Demons for the obvious reason. NO SENTIENT CRIT TEMPORARY ARTIFACT I chose the Vortex as Sentients were mentioned as being worth more gold. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Start Time: 11:46 Prior : Exp: | Idreth Lord of the 22nd Circle (122) | 7.72% (781870/10136013) | GOLD: You are carrying 45521 gold sovereigns. Cache: -------------------------------- Pills --------------------------------- [1923] acuity [1904] amaurosis [1173] anabiotic [1693] antipsychotic [1566] coagulation [1088] decongestant [1826] depressant [1523] euphoriant [1828] kawhepill [ 813] opiate [1812] ototoxin [1680] panacea [1603] paste [1896] steroid [1872] stimulant [1774] thanatonin [1782] waterbreathing Fluidcache: ==============================[ Elixirs ]============================== [ 2500] an elixir of health [ 1575] an elixir of mana [ 2101] an elixir of levitation [ 2338] an elixir of immunity [ 2197] an elixir of antivenin [ 1841] an elixir of speed [ 1562] an elixir of frost [ 1182] a purgative concoction ==============================[ Poultices ]============================== [ 1478] an epidermal poultice [ 2200] a mending poultice [ 1583] a caloric poultice [ 2392] a restoration poultice [ 2099] a mass poultice Vials: an elixir of frost 31 A an elixir of health 84 A an elixir of immunity 16 A an elixir of speed 97 A an elixir of mana 5 A an elixir of health 97 A empty 0 A empty 0 A an elixir of antivenin 58 A an elixir of levitation 94 A Gauntlet: Should have drained this before, but I can do the math for how much it added. An ornate venantium-chased gauntlet is storing: 8 coalescences of red mist. 11 coalescences of green mist. 5 coalescences of blue mist. 6 coalescences of yellow mist. 4 coalescences of white mist. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End Time: 12:40 Post: CORPSES (Non-Demons because I gave them all to quest NPCs:) 10 corpses of a petrified treant, 20 corpses of a reinforcement warrior of the aztob, 8 corpses of a Sciomancer mage, 65 fingers in 65 stacks, 20 corpses of a strained indorani, 21 corpses of a crazed indorani, 21 corpses of a warped indorani DEMONS: 84 total given to NPCs for a total of 1260 gold FINAL EXP: | Idreth Lord of the 22nd Circle (122) | 13.07% (1324021/10136013) | Gain of 542151 EXP FINAL GOLD: You are carrying 48441 gold sovereigns. Cache: -------------------------------- Pills --------------------------------- [1923] acuity [1904] amaurosis [ 997] anabiotic [1687] antipsychotic [1566] coagulation [1055] decongestant [1817] depressant [1506] euphoriant [1826] kawhepill [ 812] opiate [1812] ototoxin [1680] panacea [1603] paste [1896] steroid [1872] stimulant [1774] thanatonin [1782] waterbreathing Fluidcache: ==============================[ Elixirs ]============================== [ 2100] an elixir of health [ 1575] an elixir of mana [ 2101] an elixir of levitation [ 2338] an elixir of immunity [ 2197] an elixir of antivenin [ 1841] an elixir of speed [ 1562] an elixir of frost [ 1182] a purgative concoction ==============================[ Poultices ]============================== [ 1478] an epidermal poultice [ 2200] a mending poultice [ 1583] a caloric poultice [ 2392] a restoration poultice [ 2099] a mass poultice Vials: an elixir of frost 29 A an elixir of health 44 A an elixir of immunity 15 A an elixir of speed 54 A an elixir of mana 2 A an elixir of health 97 A empty 0 A empty 0 A an elixir of antivenin 57 A an elixir of levitation 93 A Gauntlet: An ornate venantium-chased gauntlet is storing: 9 coalescences of red mist. 15 coalescences of green mist. 9 coalescences of blue mist. 6 coalescences of yellow mist. 4 coalescences of white mist. Gain 1 red, 4 green, 4 blue, 0 yellow, 0 white. Gain in gold from Gauntlet including previous mists: 1530 gold. Approximately 35 gold per mist, so 280 gold from this run (give or take, each mist seems to be different value) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Consumed: 176 Anabiotic, 6 antipsychotic, 33 decongestant, 9 depressant, 17 euphoriant, 1 opiate, 440 health sips, 3 mana sips. 56468 Lexen an anabiotic pill 14gp 56447 Shachalai a refill of an elixir of health 6gp 56439 Kylan an antipsychotic pill 11gp 56439 Kylan a decongestant pill 11gp 56445 Tenshyo a depressant pill 9gp 56439 Kylan an euphoriant pill 11gp 56440 Katie an opiate pill 9gp Could get slightly lower prices shopping around, but people are already selling at a loss at these prices. Gold Lost: 2464 anabiotic, 52 health, 363 decongestant, 81 depressant, 187 euphoriant, 9 opiate, negligible mana = 3156 gold. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Summary: XP GAIN: 542151 GOLD GAIN: 1660 DROPS + 1260 DEMONS + 280 MISTS = 3200 gold GOLD GAIN: 44 gold overall.I may have been fine if I lowered anabiotic to 50%, but that gets really freakin' scary really freakin' fast.
Keep in mind, this is also an open pk zone, so lower level players would not necessarily be left alone while bashing it.
So, 44 gold and a resource I couldn't give less of a crap about (experience) for six minutes short of an hour's work.
Edit: I missed a few costs but don't have time to fix it right now, check elixir differences - I actually lost money, including speed sips and whatnot.