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So do we have association laws, or don't we?
Here's the situation. I didn't create this character to troll. I didn't go into this intending to SPEND TIME WITH UNDESIRABLES and CAUSE TROUBLE. It'll be obvious to you that I've played this game before, and extensively, and I have. But none of that is the point.
My understanding to this point is that the administration have asked organizations to NOT make what are usually termed "association laws" - laws that dictate whom members of your organization may or may not be seen with, talk with, interact with, et cetera. The conclusion that I would draw from this - and I'm willing to be corrected on it - is that they would prefer a more fluid, open response to interorganizational contact. They would NOT like to place a hard barrier between the Spirit and Shadow sides of the game. And I support this.
I also support the attempts to POLICE such contact between factions. I absolutely agree that the "Lighties" should be suspicious of communication with "Darkies" except when attempting to save or convert them. It makes perfect sense.
However, I DON'T agree that players should attempt to circumvent the administration's ruling by effectively enforcing an association law that is not on the books. If you're told that you don't get to make a law vowing to kick people out if they talk to the other faction... that doesn't mean that you can still kick out those people and just not make a law about it.
The question is, how far is too far? How far can we go in policing the behavior of our own organizations, without giving new players the impression that they will be kicked out if they so much as tip their hat to anyone considered persona non grata? So I present this to you. Is this acceptable behavior? Is this amount of interaction with the opposite faction acceptable? Where should we draw the line? If we're drawing a line, should we make a law? Does this defy the administration's ruling against association laws, declared or undeclared?
Gentle is interrogated as to his past, being a 60ish-year-old who joined the Ascendril at level five - fairly obviously a forgotten character, to anyone with interest in suspecting his motives. He ends up speaking with a vampire and a Syssin in a bar OWNED and RUN by an Enorian citizen, this bar being intentionally run as a NEUTRAL location, and he is then further interrogated as to his intentions in that conversation:
http://pastebin.com/nDc46de1
Later, Gentle wanders through Four Corners and dares to greet Taygeta, which is apparently a crime for which the entire assemblage of citizens and council must interrogate him.
http://pastebin.com/1p3LmW4G
I recognize that there are moments in this and the previous log when I am clearly baiting people. I'm not as innocent as a true-newbie would be in this situation. But the fact remains that a ruling has been made against association laws, and yet we are still apparently enforcing them without the support of law. Personally, I don't really care what laws an organization wants to make. I don't care if an organization wants to RP being corrupt and completely countermanding the laws they have on the books, because that's the way they roll. Sure, that works. But when the admin tell you that you shouldn't do a thing... you don't really get to continue doing it so long as you don't talk about it. From what I understand, that's not really the intention of the ruling. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I'd have waited until my inevitable out-citizening to bring this to your attention, except that I don't actually INTEND to spend time with the opposite faction on this character, because that's not really what I made the character FOR. I made it to play, as I imagine myriad other people will do. I encountered an individual and was then subjected to hours' worth of browbeating as a result. I found it horribly unpleasant, and if I were new to this game and didn't have a certain amount of cynicism built up with regard to the playerbase, I would probably have not bothered to continue playing. This has been my perception of the treatment this character has experienced. I'm interested in your perspective. Let's hear it.
My understanding to this point is that the administration have asked organizations to NOT make what are usually termed "association laws" - laws that dictate whom members of your organization may or may not be seen with, talk with, interact with, et cetera. The conclusion that I would draw from this - and I'm willing to be corrected on it - is that they would prefer a more fluid, open response to interorganizational contact. They would NOT like to place a hard barrier between the Spirit and Shadow sides of the game. And I support this.
I also support the attempts to POLICE such contact between factions. I absolutely agree that the "Lighties" should be suspicious of communication with "Darkies" except when attempting to save or convert them. It makes perfect sense.
However, I DON'T agree that players should attempt to circumvent the administration's ruling by effectively enforcing an association law that is not on the books. If you're told that you don't get to make a law vowing to kick people out if they talk to the other faction... that doesn't mean that you can still kick out those people and just not make a law about it.
The question is, how far is too far? How far can we go in policing the behavior of our own organizations, without giving new players the impression that they will be kicked out if they so much as tip their hat to anyone considered persona non grata? So I present this to you. Is this acceptable behavior? Is this amount of interaction with the opposite faction acceptable? Where should we draw the line? If we're drawing a line, should we make a law? Does this defy the administration's ruling against association laws, declared or undeclared?
Gentle is interrogated as to his past, being a 60ish-year-old who joined the Ascendril at level five - fairly obviously a forgotten character, to anyone with interest in suspecting his motives. He ends up speaking with a vampire and a Syssin in a bar OWNED and RUN by an Enorian citizen, this bar being intentionally run as a NEUTRAL location, and he is then further interrogated as to his intentions in that conversation:
http://pastebin.com/nDc46de1
Later, Gentle wanders through Four Corners and dares to greet Taygeta, which is apparently a crime for which the entire assemblage of citizens and council must interrogate him.
http://pastebin.com/1p3LmW4G
I recognize that there are moments in this and the previous log when I am clearly baiting people. I'm not as innocent as a true-newbie would be in this situation. But the fact remains that a ruling has been made against association laws, and yet we are still apparently enforcing them without the support of law. Personally, I don't really care what laws an organization wants to make. I don't care if an organization wants to RP being corrupt and completely countermanding the laws they have on the books, because that's the way they roll. Sure, that works. But when the admin tell you that you shouldn't do a thing... you don't really get to continue doing it so long as you don't talk about it. From what I understand, that's not really the intention of the ruling. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I'd have waited until my inevitable out-citizening to bring this to your attention, except that I don't actually INTEND to spend time with the opposite faction on this character, because that's not really what I made the character FOR. I made it to play, as I imagine myriad other people will do. I encountered an individual and was then subjected to hours' worth of browbeating as a result. I found it horribly unpleasant, and if I were new to this game and didn't have a certain amount of cynicism built up with regard to the playerbase, I would probably have not bothered to continue playing. This has been my perception of the treatment this character has experienced. I'm interested in your perspective. Let's hear it.
1
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Like you said, you are not a new player. Anyone checking your honours will know that. I don't think all these comparisons about "if you were new" apply here.
I don't know anything about association law rulings or whatever, but it seems simple logic that Enorian's leadership can and should act against citizens that entertain vampires. I only took a very quick glance at your log, since I am headed out in a few minutes, but I see why your character landed in trouble for that. Your character defied less than subtle suggestions to leave, sold blood to a vampire as payment and flirted pretty openly with her. Duiran might be a better fit for the character, tbh, if you want that route and still stay on the lightside. That, or make up some IC reason for talking to vampires.
Just my thoughts!
It's easy to undercut these interactions by saying that a "new" player wouldn't behave this way or wouldn't be in this situation, because that can't actually be proved. It's an ad hominem argument. The fact is that someone DID approach it this way, and this was the response. So how do you react to THIS response, under THESE conditions?
In this case, Enorian can't punish you for simply talking to a vampire, but at the same time, said interaction was more than just talking to a vampire. Letting a vampire feed from you as payment for anything as an Enorian citizen is kind of a violation of common sense, so of course they'd give you a hard time about it. And as far as I'm aware, they're within their right to do so.
And honestly, I see nothing wrong with what Enorian did there. If anything, they were being too lenient.
I'm genuinely curious as to what you think they should have done if not what they did. You've got a character that you've planted in Enorian, "a haven for all those that would protect Life and seek to end the Undead threat" and the Ascendril, a bunch of light Mages who, while admittedly probably the least extreme and strict of the Enorianite guilds, are still very much pro-Life and against the scourge of the big bad vampires. What did you think was going to happen? If you wanted a character that doesn't have to deal with that sort of thing, why have you put him where he is?
I get wanting to explore conflicts of interest, have your character know something about the "other" side, etc. If you're going to have more than passing contact with them, though - and yes, letting a vampire drink your blood is more than passing contact - it seems pretty reasonable to think that there are going to be consequences at some point and to be prepared to play along with that accordingly.
(Edited because I spotted a typo and wanted to fix it >> )
No, Gentle certainly hasn't been removed from the city or guild... yet. Had Taygeta remained in the guild over the past few weeks, I have a feeling that might have ended up a bit differently. But the point is that you create an extremely hostile environment with no actual support from the laws your organization has set down - because you CAN'T. Your organization has been BARRED from creating laws along the lines of those you wish to enforce, and yet you continue to enforce them with the defense that they "should be common sense."
What did I think was going to happen? Nothing, because I did not set out to troll or disrupt anyone. I ran into a person in a bar. I was very nearly removed from my city and guild for it. And the general conclusion is that this is entirely fair and to be expected. I believe I understand now. Thank you all.
No org can punish you for bumping into someone and having a conversation, and most don't, even in Enorian. They can, however, take action if they feel you're getting too friendly with people you really shouldn't be or doing things you shouldn't be.
In all my time as leadership of Enorian and\or the Luminaries, I have never once had an administrator or even an RP god tell me that association laws were illegal. For that matter, when the game was going through the polarization of Life and Undeath, I was encouraged to more strifctly enforce them to assist with the polarization. There is no rule against association laws, however, most of the player run organizations have moved away from them. In contrast to what Phoenecia said, an organization could have strict laws and enforce them heavily for bumping into someone and having a conversation. The Luminaries used to be that way, where we told our novii (hi, Kiyotan) that if you were in a room with a vampire trying to hold conversation, to leave. This was backed up by the Revelation, which was the guiding centerpiece of the guild. It wasn't until Macian became GM that we began to move away from that somewhat, and it's held true through mine and Aren's reigns as GM since.
tl;dr There's no divine decree against Association Laws, it's something players hated being so strictly enforced so the -players- decided to move against them, but there are still standards for which you must adhere if you're going to be in a 'Light' organization.
Message #17059 Sent By: Oleis Received On: 1/03/2014/17:24
"If it makes you feel better, just checking your artifact list threatens to crash my mudlet."
"To be awkward or unkempt, to talk or move wrongly is to be a dangerous giant, a destroyer of worlds...any accurately improper move can poke through the thin sleeve of immediate reality." - Erving Goffman
That being said, I've had RL -years- in which I've built up this RP to be able to cross the line while suffering minimal effects from it, and there are still lines I can't cross without getting into trouble. If I allowed a vampire to feed from me for ANY reason, I'd be gone, instantly removed from city, guild, and order.
tl;dr There are lines you can't cross - it's not association laws, it's RP.
I don't know why no one else noticed this, but for a purported new player we're running off with our dastardly association laws...
Gentle
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General:
He is 67 years old.
He was born on the 4th of Variach, year 315 of the Midnight Age.
He is ranked 753rd in Aetolia.
He is a Citizen in Enorian.
He is a Vagabond in the Fellowship of Explorers.
He is a member of the clan called 'The Ascendril Order'.
He is considered to be approximately 0% of your might.
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...67?
Message #17059 Sent By: Oleis Received On: 1/03/2014/17:24
"If it makes you feel better, just checking your artifact list threatens to crash my mudlet."
"To be awkward or unkempt, to talk or move wrongly is to be a dangerous giant, a destroyer of worlds...any accurately improper move can poke through the thin sleeve of immediate reality." - Erving Goffman