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Sect season and rating - a request
I would like to make a humble request. They do not know I am making a request, nor have I talked with anyone about it. So, al little background below.
The sect change requiring your accuracy of 4 or more. First, I think this is a very good change. I like what is being done with sect overall, seems cool. Keep it up!
I am not sure if the top 8 have to fight, or just they are listed on the plaque and just the #1 gets the honors line, or if of the top 8, the winner gets the honors line. I can see both ways as a cool thing. Maybe even separate honors lines. One for #1 rating, one for winning the sect tournament (if there is one).
I don't know how much the ranking system for sect has been tweaked, but it used to be a massive loss of points to lose to a "new" sect member, even if they were a top ranked combatant who just happen to join the system. I would love for it to be looked at a bit more. If the #1 person has 2000 points, and they have 50+ fights logged in sect, versus say a 1500 point person and 5 fights logged, a 200 point drop shouldn't happen. Nor a draw shouldn't drop massive points. Smaller increments seems a better draw. That will result in way more matches. Maybe a loss is maxed out at 30 points, and gains to X points? I don't know, but that
would result in way more fights and less worrying about a single loss taking you out of a potential top 8.
We all know how easy it is also to not be killed in Aetolia. If someone really wants to not die, there is lots they can still do to make this happen. Yes, it still happens. This ties into the draw rating noted above. While typing, I did think of something that could also help with people who avoid fights. Either the collapsing room mod, or if after 20 (X) seconds of not being in the same room, your are transported together in some kind of single room. I don't know.
Request: End the current season as-is, with no requirement of accuracy. I think it would be a huge detriment to the small fighting community we have to make that change in a current season. The reality is, in my opinion, I think @Mjoll has properly earned that rank/honors line already. With the new change, she will not be eligible. Along the same lines, @Jezreth and @Valeria both would not be in the top 8 as well. That also is a dis-service to them. They have definitely earned their spots in the rankings. Put in the new scoring system with the new year.
Some may say, just have her fight, get back the accuracy rating. Sure, sounds easy on paper, but with how the outlined issues above about a single loss, and the starting expectation of how sect was rated, I just don't see it as being fair.
On a side note, I also think the season could be shortened. I am not even sure how long the full season is (6 months or a year?) Maybe make it quarterly or no more than six months, if not already. That would also draw in more fighters. Longer seasons create more stagnant stances to the sect system.
Thank you to the team (especially those who work with combat, I would guess a majority still being @Keroc) for making the experiences very very good, and the continued hard work you have been doing. It is noticed, and I hope you take my suggestion into consideration.
Respectfully,
Mazz
The sect change requiring your accuracy of 4 or more. First, I think this is a very good change. I like what is being done with sect overall, seems cool. Keep it up!
I am not sure if the top 8 have to fight, or just they are listed on the plaque and just the #1 gets the honors line, or if of the top 8, the winner gets the honors line. I can see both ways as a cool thing. Maybe even separate honors lines. One for #1 rating, one for winning the sect tournament (if there is one).
I don't know how much the ranking system for sect has been tweaked, but it used to be a massive loss of points to lose to a "new" sect member, even if they were a top ranked combatant who just happen to join the system. I would love for it to be looked at a bit more. If the #1 person has 2000 points, and they have 50+ fights logged in sect, versus say a 1500 point person and 5 fights logged, a 200 point drop shouldn't happen. Nor a draw shouldn't drop massive points. Smaller increments seems a better draw. That will result in way more matches. Maybe a loss is maxed out at 30 points, and gains to X points? I don't know, but that
would result in way more fights and less worrying about a single loss taking you out of a potential top 8.
We all know how easy it is also to not be killed in Aetolia. If someone really wants to not die, there is lots they can still do to make this happen. Yes, it still happens. This ties into the draw rating noted above. While typing, I did think of something that could also help with people who avoid fights. Either the collapsing room mod, or if after 20 (X) seconds of not being in the same room, your are transported together in some kind of single room. I don't know.
Request: End the current season as-is, with no requirement of accuracy. I think it would be a huge detriment to the small fighting community we have to make that change in a current season. The reality is, in my opinion, I think @Mjoll has properly earned that rank/honors line already. With the new change, she will not be eligible. Along the same lines, @Jezreth and @Valeria both would not be in the top 8 as well. That also is a dis-service to them. They have definitely earned their spots in the rankings. Put in the new scoring system with the new year.
Some may say, just have her fight, get back the accuracy rating. Sure, sounds easy on paper, but with how the outlined issues above about a single loss, and the starting expectation of how sect was rated, I just don't see it as being fair.
On a side note, I also think the season could be shortened. I am not even sure how long the full season is (6 months or a year?) Maybe make it quarterly or no more than six months, if not already. That would also draw in more fighters. Longer seasons create more stagnant stances to the sect system.
Thank you to the team (especially those who work with combat, I would guess a majority still being @Keroc) for making the experiences very very good, and the continued hard work you have been doing. It is noticed, and I hope you take my suggestion into consideration.
Respectfully,
Mazz
12
Comments
Sect says fair play is expected of everyone, moving the goalpost for the top reward late in the season isn't fair play.
This is a good change but it would be wiser to implement it on a fresh season than at the end of the current one. I can appreciate and understand a desire to implement changes that will raise the standards of competition but doing it in the final quarter, ad-hoc, tells me as a player I should not trust the content or competitions presented to me and a healthier expectation would be that the game exists and functions on a day to day level.
There is zero reason this couldn't have waited or a season reset couldn't have happened. And being told that it was "out of your hands" or "it couldn't wait" reads as a copout to avoid responsibility and avoid addressing the matter in a suitable way to avoid hurt, especially when the decisions were entirely in your hands. Do better, Aetolia.
This entire thing strikes me as another example of a bad/unpopular change (or in this case, a change that was made at a really bad time) that was made with little (or the wrong kind of) forethought about the impact to the community. The kinda thing that happens, the blowback occurs because the obvious problems arise, and then heels are dug in because reversing a bad decision that is also unpopular is viewed as untennable because it might empower the masses to keep making demands when things are changed in the future. But, like, this is just...not the right call. It was the wrong call to drop this change mid-season. And it really fosters bitterness from the playerbase when this sort of thing happens and, instead of going "ope, my bad, yeah, I didn't think of that," changes are forced through anyway in an effort to not appear weak/easily bullied. In the end, it costs us players who are passionate about the very thing that these sorts of changes are meant to advantage. It blows.
And, yeah, lots of changes will drive players away, even good ones; the thing is, it was clearly a not-good decision to drop these changes when they were, and the cost of pushing the change for the start of another season is essentially zero. The cost of doing it this way is a greatly embittered playerbase and a Mjoll.
sucks man
edit: wanted to make it clear I think the timing of the change is bad, as well as how it was rolled out, not the change itself.
Yes, this is why the system needed changed, but this is also how it was unfair to present these changes in the middle of the season. The last time Keroc explained this to me, lack of activity meant a much more drastic swing in your rating upon a loss.
This is not the same as a mechanic change via class leads or one of Keroc's bender nights where he just changes things out of season. This put anyone with a high ranking but low accuracy due to inactivity on the backfoot immediately.
Another question, how many fights over the course of a year did the top people have to do to maintain their ranking? I am sure it must be a grueling amount to maintain such a high ranking.
Sorry if this is all common knowledge. I just could not find good documentation.
It's also worth listing the current top 8 at 4* and up: Dourif, Tina, Almol, Valorie, Saidenn, Sheryni, Rinata, Taj. Newly unlisted would be (for low accuracy) Mjoll, Jezreth, Mazzion, Valeria, Azami, Rhyot, Raskalov, (for not being top 8, and only top 20 as was previously shown) Bulrok, Lim, Meltas, Jhin, and Feirenz.
Starting with Mjoll, she's had a good year, just based on what I could find on the #game discord channel. This is not a perfect source, as Discord's search function could have missed something or the bot(s) involved could have dropped a deathsight. Still, the picture this paints of Mjoll's season is pretty good:
10/16/2021 Mjoll defeated Jeromy in the Sect of Blades.
10/10/2021 Mjoll defeated Legyn in the Sect of Blades.
10/10/2021 Mjoll defeated Amyie in the Sect of Blades.
09/04/2021 Mjoll defeated Amyie in the Sect of Blades.
07/19/2021 Mjoll defeated Amyie in the Sect of Blades.
06/03/2021 Mjoll defeated Amyie in the Sect of Blades.
02/04/2021 Mjoll defeated Jezreth in the Sect of Blades.
01/31/2021 Mjoll defeated Almol in the Sect of Blades.
01/06/2021 Mjoll defeated Jhin in the Sect of Blades.
01/03/2021 Mjoll defeated Jeromy in the Sect of Blades.
01/01/2021 Mjoll defeated Taj in the Sect of Blades.
12/30/2021 Mjoll defeated Khelzya in the Sect of Blades.
12/23/2021 Mjoll defeated Meltas in the Sect of Blades.
01/01/2021 Tina defeated Mjoll in the Sect of Blades.
That is 16 duels and 15 wins. That's very nearly undefeated. She has even defeated several top-20, including Jezreth (#2/1*), Almol (#8/5*), Taj (#15/5*). Mjoll sits at a ranking of 2013, with 2 stars accuracy for her efforts.
Contrast that with Dourif, who has also had a good year (based on similar sources). I do not have a quick and easy breakdown of win/loss or who he faced. This is because he has been pretty prolific at times in Sect, racking up ~306 Sect spars. He has also defeated several top-20, including Jezreth, Valeria, Tina, Almol, Rhyot, Saidenn, Raskalov, Sheryni, Rinata, Taj, Meltas, Jhin, and Feirenz. Dourif sits at a ranking of 1735, with 4 stars of accuracy for his efforts.
Is it particularly fair that Dourif - who has fought 20 times as many duels this year, has bested all but one of the top duelists at least once, and has fought ~30 of those spars since the announcement two months ago - is behind Mjoll, with only 15 wins to her name this year? I would not say that is particularly fair.
If my data is flawed in some way, I'd appreciate being corrected.
Experience Gained: 47720 (Special) [total: 2933660]
Needed for LVL: 122.00775356245
Sent By: The Sect of Blades on 25 Nov 2021, 12:52
Hello Blade members! Once the current season comes to an end (10th Ios), the next season will be the final rating period and a Champion will be crowned! This year only the top eight with an accuracy of four stars will eligible for Champion and to be honoured upon the plaque within the Hall. I wish you all luck with the final season approaching soon! - Founder, Samahi Zorashust.
1432 The Sect of 9/26/2021
Hello Blade members! With the end of current rating period not too far away, please note that
unlike other years, we will be only including the top eight upon the plague within the Hall. As a
requirement to be part of the top eight, you must have an accuracy rating of at least four stars.
Without this, you will not be eligible for the plague, including the fame of being number one. There
is still plenty of time yet to come for the current rating period, so do not worry to much, you
should have plenty of time. Thank you!
It's worth noting there was more than 12.5 days notice.
Experience Gained: 47720 (Special) [total: 2933660]
Needed for LVL: 122.00775356245
But that isn't really what the issue is - it's about competitive expectations. If you set the rules of the game for something that has stakes, you generally don't change the rules 3/4ths of the way through. Look at League of Legends for an example - all their major changes take place during an off-season. Traditional sports, as well.
The argument here is that any changes to the rules of the system should take place after the season ends. Not during it. Especially when you change the winner by going 'oops the last 9 months of you being in first place were a lie.'
This probably is also an argument for it being a much shorter period of evaluation for the fame line.
Quick edit note to make sure I'm being clear: I think we all agree that this is a GOOD change, just that it should have waited until the start of the next season.
I think people need to step back and realize that at the end of the day, it's just a fame line. Everyone says this is a good change going forward, so the sole complaint is who gets the fame line this one year. It sucks to be the one who is affected by this. I get it. But the game just got a new producer who is working to right all the things people have been complaining about (including this). I don't think it's reasonable to assume he is out to get anyone, and this change was announced rl months ago - it's not reasonable to expect it to be reversed now, and cause a different player (likely Dourif) who would have been #1 to lose out on it.
The goal is to make the line more meaningful by stopping people from "cheesing" it. But if everyone agrees that it will be more meaningful under the new system, why is having this last instance of "winning" under the old system so important?
I truly do not want Mjoll to feel hurt. I wish I could help, but it seems like bringing out the pitchforks at the admin for trying to improve a broken system is not the right way to go. Just my two cents.
Especially when it had been the same way for years.
And yet, Aetolia is not a competitive sport, and does not endeavor to be. Rules regularly change in the form of Classleads and other combat changes. When there is something that is wrong with the game (an overpowered class, for example), changes happen. This has been the expectation in the game forever. When there is something that is wrong with Sect (like the top combatant being startlingly reclusive), changes should happen.
Experience Gained: 47720 (Special) [total: 2933660]
Needed for LVL: 122.00775356245
However, now that I am involved in sect, I can understand someone feeling absolutely bummed and screwed if they were so close to winning and then the rules changed. I def think the season should just end early.
Where's the line on when changes should come to Sect? If it's at the new season then what about the other things that have been implemented in regards to combat balance?
I can understand all the angles and recognize this is a grey situation. I still think a change that directly impacts the rewards shouldn't come more than half-way through the season. I also understand what is being addressed here and why the choice was made. What I realize I want and need is an established standard of when to anticipate changes to come and affect competitive play. For me it's not a question of whether or not there was enough time to achieve the goal and more a looming concern of putting time and energy into competition and seeing a pattern of goal posts move. It becomes a question of personal boundaries with a game, and asking myself as a player how willing I am to engage competitively in something I can't predict or will require me to realign time and goals where there are multiple things to try and achieve.
Experience Gained: 47720 (Special) [total: 2933660]
Needed for LVL: 122.00775356245
Experience Gained: 47720 (Special) [total: 2933660]
Needed for LVL: 122.00775356245
75% of the race was over with. The finish line was shifted with 25% of it left. That is bad. You're over here saying 'oh it's not that bad'. You guys keep latching on to how terrible the system was. Yeah, we agree. We even pointed out other things that were terrible about it, like say, how #1 is forced into non participation if #2 becomes inactive. We even pointed out how the change coming in after 75% of the race was over with put #1 at a distinct disadvantage, and that was bad. But, no, we want to only focus on the one bad that justifies keeping the changes (which everyone wants implemented AFTER THIS ONE IS OVER), we don't care about the other bads that happened from changing it early.
Re: Xenia (mobile, quoting is hard)
I refered to League earlier because as it's a bit of a gaming-industry standard practice in long term competitive environments. Balance changes tend to happen all through the season, but major system-wide changes don't usually happen until end of season. That is the standard that I tend to view as golden, myself. (See: Overwatch, Apex, etc)
With that in mind, most of these games also have a much shorter season length than 1 year.
Does anyone else have any differing opinions/have anything else to add?
As game maker, certain public policy type considerations come to play that may not be intuitive to most people. For example, you don't change policy once people have expectations of the policy, unless strictly necessary (i.e. extenuating circumstances, extreme abuse, etc.). Because people hate uncertainty, work their lives/efforts around it, and when it gets changed, it pulls the rug from under you. Over time, this has the effect of creating distrust in the system, and leads to a lot of unhappiness because people don't know when the rug will be pulled out from under them again. That's why public policy changes tend to be prospective or takes time to kick in, in order to not affect the status quo. You'd see this as the best practice, for example, in how laws are made IRL - there is usually a delay/long run-up to a new law taking effect. Now, this is the case _regardless_ of how good the new policy is - because there are longer term considerations in play than just 'is this policy a good one'.
In this case, seems like sect has been cheesed for a long time. The question is whether to let it be cheesed for this one last season, or end it immediately. On one hand, it's wrong that players should feel entitled to their cheese. On the other, there are broader policy considerations that affect game running, long term. So that's a judgement call that's up to the admin.
(For added difficulty, and I think Tet raised this already: Keep reverting policy based on public outcry, and that sends the signal that you will revert policy when there is public outcry, which tends to lead to more public outcry. If players are responsible and only start crying out in legit cases - that's fine. But what tends to also happen is you'll see the beginnings of the 'squeaky wheel gets the grease' effect. Which is another form of bad. That's why another public policy 'best practice' is to be slow to revert policy, i.e. extenuating circumstances, extreme hardship)). As my dog likes to often say, it's 'ruff'.
Clearly. It is not a competitive sport, though, and not as rigidly structured as most other competitions. Half the people in this thread could not have told you the end-of-year structure. The end-of-year reset is not even explained in a help scroll, as far as I can see.
I heard the points that have been raised, and they have some merit. Despite accusations of contrarianism, I do understand the complaints being made and I'm not trying to dismiss them. Ultimately, though, I disagree with some points and the conclusions being made, and I will make my own points and try to demonstrate why your points lack appropriate context.
"Operating as it was intended to" is an interesting assertion and really gets to the heart of the matter. The ratings accuracy system has been in place for two and a half years. Clearly, it has never been intended that someone could be active for only half a season, or coast on early wins. And yet, that is what has happened in a slightly spectacular fashion. 16 duels feels like something you have to try at. With all respect to Mjoll, it feels like gaming the system. It was not "operating as intended", and I think we all know that.
Clearly the season was broken. "The season should have been ended or reset early" is basically full admission to that point. How best to address that problem then? Ending the season early is one option, but it is not the only option and it is an acutely poor option. If you give the #1 duelist the fame line for the truncated season, you've just rewarded the bad behavior while acknowledging it was bad. If you don't, well, we're right back where we started, aren't we?
Or maybe I'm not ignoring the things you want me to ignore, I'm making my own valid points instead, and I'm not interested in being shouted down by some overly loud clique talking unicorn about me.
Experience Gained: 47720 (Special) [total: 2933660]
Needed for LVL: 122.00775356245