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Aetolian Combat

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  • I guess I might have a flawed sample, but any time I asked any capable PKer a mechanics question, I got a decent answer. Unless they happened to personally hate me. And I always, to the best of my ability, provided an in-depth answer to mechanics questions. I have a hard time imagining this has really changed and people became information misers, but I guess anything is possible.


    And I know there's a huge barrier to entry. I kind of started with those words. I also said you can't drop that barrier without gimping the game's highest paying customers and turning combat as a whole on its head. If anything, Imperian bravely took steps in that direction, so that's where I'd look for guidance. But in no way is it a simple issue. The fact remains that you CAN learn and that it's not really harder to get into combat now than it was in years past. It might not be as easy as it should be in order to generate more new PKers, but this complexity is the same thing that originally drew the current PK cadre in.

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  • An idea might be more emphasis on good server-side curing. That way you would end up with people only worrying about offensive stuff or your active defensive things - defense upkeep, use of active defensive skills, etc. That would remove a large portion of the entry barrier without overly gimping...well...anything, really. Your artifacts would still be worthwhile, since the vast, vast majority of them center around passive defensive things, stat boosts or outright damage enhancement, with the outliers being things like the torc of telepathy, which would still be very useful.

    HavenOrusMoireanAldricMalokAlastair
  • EzalorEzalor Emperor D'baen Canada
    Oh I guess I remembered wrongly about the Paris thing then. In any case there have been tons of improvements put in that level 100 is still ridiculously easy to reach.
    Xavin said:
    An idea might be more emphasis on good server-side curing. That way you would end up with people only worrying about offensive stuff or your active defensive things - defense upkeep, use of active defensive skills, etc. That would remove a large portion of the entry barrier without overly gimping...well...anything, really. Your artifacts would still be worthwhile, since the vast, vast majority of them center around passive defensive things, stat boosts or outright damage enhancement, with the outliers being things like the torc of telepathy, which would still be very useful.
    The admin actually made some comments about this. It's floating on the forums somewhere, probably in a thread/discussion about Firstaid.
    image

  • Xavin said:
    An idea might be more emphasis on good server-side curing. That way you would end up with people only worrying about offensive stuff or your active defensive things - defense upkeep, use of active defensive skills, etc. That would remove a large portion of the entry barrier without overly gimping...well...anything, really. Your artifacts would still be worthwhile, since the vast, vast majority of them center around passive defensive things, stat boosts or outright damage enhancement, with the outliers being things like the torc of telepathy, which would still be very useful.
    While I agree with this, the way its implemented has to be carefully considered.  If you make it  too good, you throw class balance to the wolves and end up with  time bombs required for all classes.  That's not super fun to fight.  You make it too bad, and it will just never be used, which invalidates the work.

    If you can find that middle ground, I bet you'd see a lot more people active and involved in combat which would be good. 
  • I seem to remember hearing something about it, though I don't know if they were considering ramping up first aide.

    Anyway, @Ezalor, you're very much right about the whole endgame thing. These days there's so many ways to get double or triple experience gain - chalices, xp_gain artifacts, yellow ylem orb, great hunts/double xp promotions, xp increase from various other promotions, higher xp gain areas (like xaanhal and tiyen esityi)...the list goes on. Then there's the things that make getting kills easier - red ylem orb and amulets, the ylem amulet that increases all of your stats by 1 but doesn't stack with artifacts and blue ylem orb for additional defense.

    Really, getting to level 100 is easier than it has ever been and will likely keep getting easier.

    AngweAlastair
  • @Xavin Don't forget Elite, the most underrated xp gain of them all.
    AngweRivas
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight School
    Pretty sure Paris did achieve endgame status by age 19. I recall her celebrating on AIM/MSN/clans extensively about finally being able to sleep again.
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    Edhain
  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotion
    Getting endgame isn't difficult any longer. I did it before Xaanhal, Tiyen, etc. It was even harder before I did it. No complaints, slackers.
  • AngweAngwe I'm the dog that ate yr birthday cake Bedford, VA
    I bashed casually and often exclusively for gold (for credz) and got endgame by like 26. With a three week break. Endgame is easy as shit now.
    image
  • @Hadoryu I couldn't agree more.

    I lost my system like a year or two ago, and had to rewrite it at the end of December/Start of January. In addition to doing things more efficiently through the use of GMCP instead of you tracking your herb balance and the like. The affliction view system lets you do a lot of nice things easily. With like 25ish triggers, you can have a complete curing system if you really do your scripting right. I put together the core of my curing in like a few hours, which beforehand for writing up everything was a pain. You now see limb damage as it hits you, instead of having to guess the limb damage values or the like. 

    @Bloodborns they're not really that bad, as long as you're actually afflicting them back too. In terms of pressure they can put a lot on you, but that's pretty much as good as it gets for them since they only have one passive. In terms of power, I'd say they're one of the most powerful classes on the dark side if not the, a good counterpart to the Luminaries IIRC. However, I don't know how they've nerfed/buffed the current day Luminaries. If it wasn't an entire hurl up of Xiuhcoatl's RP of killing, eating, and breeding, I would most likely grab Bloodborn class ASAP. 

    Somewhat of my own opinion and I'd like to see other people's impressions. However, IMO, there's only like a few classes that from my stand point should be able to kill someone: Bloodborn, Luminary, Lycanthrope, Monk. All the other classes I've seen played and played, this excludes Shamans, Cabalist, and Teradrim, seem that their offense is entirely hinged upon too much of the person you're fighting being bad or unable to handle a certain aspect of your offense. Sciomancer is the perfect example with retardation. If you can't handle retardation your system is going to break, if you can you can vlock a sciomancer in it and then proceed to damage kill them within a short span of time if you're an affliction heavy class. 
  • IllikaalIllikaal Pray Area
    Except, retardation produces a huge problem to any class that is reliant on a slow buildup offense. The only two classes in the game that could probably feasibly deal with a mage in retardation are Syssin and Templars. Even then, it'd be hard due to the high passive affliction output that mages can produce, which leads to an almost permanent state of transfix with little to no reprieve. 

    Sadly, Ascendril have no way of capitalizing on Transfix, which makes using the skill effectively pointless for them. Unless your goal is just to be the biggest troll you can be and make no attempt to kill your opponent, and instead to annoy the piss out of them, well then, Sciomancer/Ascendril are definitely the classes you want to pick. 
    "And finally, swear to Me: You will give your life to Dendara for you are Tiarna an-Kiar."
  • edited April 2013
    (if an ascendril can keep you transfixed, you'll die to voyria eventually thanks to plague)

    (though that's not really a viable kill route)

  • IllikaalIllikaal Pray Area
    Don't get me wrong, you can easily tumble out of vibes/transfix/retardation. But that completely defeats the purpose of fighting anyone at all if you just literally can't get anywhere with them because of unrelenting hinderance. 
    "And finally, swear to Me: You will give your life to Dendara for you are Tiarna an-Kiar."
  • Xavin said:
    An idea might be more emphasis on good server-side curing. That way you would end up with people only worrying about offensive stuff or your active defensive things - defense upkeep, use of active defensive skills, etc. That would remove a large portion of the entry barrier without overly gimping...well...anything, really. Your artifacts would still be worthwhile, since the vast, vast majority of them center around passive defensive things, stat boosts or outright damage enhancement, with the outliers being things like the torc of telepathy, which would still be very useful.
    The exemplary serverside autocuring system in Imperian is everything firstaid wants to be, but injected with grizzly bear adrenaline. It had EXACTLY this effect. There is now a static baseline for defense, that the classes are effectively balanced around, and it has done absolute wonders for the entry level for combat. More pk'ers now, either just for the occasional shardfall (Imperian equivalent of a lesser foci) or guys with minimal credit investment that can at least compete, if not dominate, in the higher echelons of combative prowess armed with a few credits, and capable knowledge of pk mechanics.

    That being said, I had to make my own healing here from the ground up and I found that to be its own rewarding experience. I can't really say what is the best, but autocuring, or something like it, a baseline standard universally available, will surely increase the amount of true newbies that you retain that are interested in pk.
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  • Alastair said:
    Xavin said:
    An idea might be more emphasis on good server-side curing. That way you would end up with people only worrying about offensive stuff or your active defensive things - defense upkeep, use of active defensive skills, etc. That would remove a large portion of the entry barrier without overly gimping...well...anything, really. Your artifacts would still be worthwhile, since the vast, vast majority of them center around passive defensive things, stat boosts or outright damage enhancement, with the outliers being things like the torc of telepathy, which would still be very useful.
    The exemplary serverside autocuring system in Imperian is everything firstaid wants to be, but injected with grizzly bear adrenaline. It had EXACTLY this effect. There is now a static baseline for defense, that the classes are effectively balanced around, and it has done absolute wonders for the entry level for combat. More pk'ers now, either just for the occasional shardfall (Imperian equivalent of a lesser foci) or guys with minimal credit investment that can at least compete, if not dominate, in the higher echelons of combative prowess armed with a few credits, and capable knowledge of pk mechanics.

    That being said, I had to make my own healing here from the ground up and I found that to be its own rewarding experience. I can't really say what is the best, but autocuring, or something like it, a baseline standard universally available, will surely increase the amount of true newbies that you retain that are interested in pk.
    As much as I love Garrynbot (The server-side curing system everyone has) it pretty much KILLED affliction classes.

    There are other issues that exist like several DIabolist nerfs and such and how affliction combat has a higher learning curve (y'gotta understand the stacks, mon) and how tracking is difficult in Imperian compared to Aetolia (things don't cure in order and only some have third party messages), but on the whole affliction combat is rare, unelss you're tossing out 2 venoms every 1.54 seconds like a few Wardancers I know.
    Alastair
  • ZunZun
    edited April 2013
    Why move further along the path to perfect server-side curing, and thus affliction redundancy, and not backwards away from affliction creep (for extreme cases, see Lusternia) and millisecond combat?

    With a .250 second lag and no artifacts, I've never flirted with the idea of being good at one-on-one PvP (though there will be cases out there of people having been competitive, I'm no outlier), so as strictly an outside looking in, the whole idea of server-side curing seems absurd to me. If the barrier for entry is too high then lower it, don't give everybody a bloody step ladder.
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  • One other thing that there has been talk of in the past was doubling the timers/speeds of everything. So that 2.5 second attack is suddenly a 5 second attack. your 9 second behead is now an 18 second behead and so on and so forth.

    This would allow for slower user systems and, supposedly, help mediate the disparity that can be caused by different locales having different amounts of lag.

  • While I think the idea might have merit for combat... wouldn't it make everyone fall asleep while bashing?
  • I read somewhere a discussion on calculating curing speeds--which was fascinating--and the idea of speed in relation to curing against offense came up. What struck me as the issue with lag is that I was seeing numbers discussed in the milliseconds being the difference between a viable affliction build and a great, big failwhale, while my own lag was far, far higher than the numbers being discussed. Taking just my lag alone into account, it'd be nearly impossible for me to run an affliction offense. But then on that logic, other players could launch one against me with my curing being just as slow, meaning it'd be nearly impossible for me to run an affliction defense as well.

    I can see doubling the timers helping, but it only reduces the 'gap' by a factor of two. But the gap remains, and I think there's a strong argument to be made that the size of the gap is almost irrelevant. You're either fast enough to get a lock or a kill, or not.
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  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotion
    Imperian is kind of suffering and succeeding at the server-side curing bit. I've been playing there from time to time.

    Affliction classes are actually suffering at the moment because of the server-side curing being incredibly fast and near perfect in many aspects.

    It's successful in that many people that weren't previously involved in combat are, but I think people aren't realizing that you'd still need to throw together an offense to compete and IRE isn't going to code a server-side offense for you. Just like any system, it can help you survive. Citadel certainly helps me survive and I don't have to worry about it crapping out on me but I still had to modify/update my Sentinel offense, create my Lycanthrope offense, and I'm still working on my Syssin offense.

    Good curing isn't the only entry into combat, you'd have to code an offense too.
    Alastair
  • Both of those things are important points to keep in mind. I don't think that there's one single cure-all for the situation with aetolian combat. But then again, I don't think that the issues are exactly game breaking, if that makes sense.

    One thing to keep in mind, though. Currently, the amount of combat spam is enough to grind certain clients to a halt unless you have a very powerful computer (I'm specifically thinking of zmud and cmud). I don't know how popular those clients are these days, but there was a time when they were the thing to use. Slowing down combat would also, theoretically, lessen the amount of streaming text a client has to handle, making client selection more an aesthetic or personal choice than 'well, this is what my computer can handle'.

    Moirean
  • Tza said:
    While I think the idea might have merit for combat... wouldn't it make everyone fall asleep while bashing?
    It would probably make people fall asleep in combat as well, honestly. Some slowdown wouldn't hurt, but doubling the timers would be excessive.

    Alastair
  • Xavin said:
    Both of those things are important points to keep in mind. I don't think that there's one single cure-all for the situation with aetolian combat. But then again, I don't think that the issues are exactly game breaking, if that makes sense.

    One thing to keep in mind, though. Currently, the amount of combat spam is enough to grind certain clients to a halt unless you have a very powerful computer (I'm specifically thinking of zmud and cmud). I don't know how popular those clients are these days, but there was a time when they were the thing to use. Slowing down combat would also, theoretically, lessen the amount of streaming text a client has to handle, making client selection more an aesthetic or personal choice than 'well, this is what my computer can handle'.
    On the point of it not being game breaking, I absolutely agree. My use case isn't common enough to justify reworking the combat system. But I think the idea of small amount of latency barring entry highlights this idea of a 'speed competition' and begs the question, "Why is this more important than something of greater tactical value?" We could do better to think of new ways of challenging combatants, such as having defenses be less 'stack up before battle' and more 'activate at the right time, with cooldowns,' as an immediate example. Heck, even offensive abilities with cooldowns to force combatants to switch out their 1-2-3 routines for more varied offenses.

    And that's a good point far as clients go. But as with my latency, you'd have to identify how many people client lag was affecting, and whether they were doing enough to optimize their systems.
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  • AngweAngwe I'm the dog that ate yr birthday cake Bedford, VA
    edited April 2013
    Coding an offense isn't really necessary, @Seir. There's such a thing as manualing.

    @Zun I feel your pain. My system is... not well put together, so even though my connection is fine, there's still a 2second lag after every other attack I do. That means that I either fight with no system or never lock anyone ever.
    image
  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotion
    edited April 2013
    Eh, you can manual but you're going to have a tough time using some classes doing so.
    Alastair
  • Honestly the offense side of things is like ~10-15% of the work of coding a whole system and that's talking about a really good, auto-supported offense with opponent cure tracking and team info and all related facets. It requires skill and know-how regarding the workings of combat, but it's not a lot of time/effort and it's not as off-putting as making a whole system would be to a newbie. Also, as Angwe said, you can get pretty far manually with the same skill and know-how as long as you're quick with the brain and the typing.
    Ilyon
  • Some classes certainly benefit more from an auto-supported offense as well, namely affliction heavy classes. I can't imagine trying to do Syssin manually without having good affliction tracking in helping me make active decisions on dstab, hypnosis, and sleights. 

    I do usually also make my offense able to be adjusted to try different methods of attacking with an easy swap so I'm never stuck to just one strategy as well. Even for non-affliction classes, my system will always respond faster and execute an attack than I would be able to do manually. Considering I'm always trying to beat balances, it seems like a necessity when fighting truly good curing.
    SeirXiuhcoatlAlastairTza
  • IllikaalIllikaal Pray Area
    Seir said:
    Eh, you can manual but you're going to have a tough time using some classes doing so.
    I've manualed Shaman, Monk, and Lycanthrope since the beginning of time. I'm a strong, independent manualer and don't need no automation. 
    "And finally, swear to Me: You will give your life to Dendara for you are Tiarna an-Kiar."
  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotion
    I don't automate either. I mean in the sense that you'll still have to code an aff tracker among other things for certain classes.
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander Portland
    I never really realized automated offense was a thing. I just thought people were joking when they talked about it. I mean, I made something to shout at Irruel when I've broken a leg with my handaxe or shout out for BBTs when I trip, but it sounds like you guys are talking about a lot more, things like coding in ways to vary stuff like poison applications based on what the target has? That sounds pretty clever. I am learning stuff! *the more you know*
    Alastair
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