Class Viability pt. 2

Keroc · April 2021

Hey folks!

Some of you might remember this being done previously, but for those that don't, I've prepared a questionnaire that you can answer and impart your thoughts about how each class is performing. The old thread is here for those curious.

If you have some time, jump in and submit your thoughts for us to look over. It can help us identify classes in need of help or shape our opinion on who needs what.

Click here for the form.

The form does require you to sign into a Google account so that responses remain unique, however I cannot see your username or anything like that. It is anonymous upon submission.

Once we get a fair number of submissions, I'll average up the scores and post them here.

That's all!

Illikaal · April 2021

Question. Are we meant to take into accountability how a class functions during team combat as a whole including utility, or are we focusing strictly on raw effectiveness in an ongoing teamfight?

Edit: Nevermind, I got to the bottom of the form.

Keroc · April 2021

Alright!

We've hit 31 voters, and I don't think there's likely to be anymore. So here is the tally! I've also included how each class has moved compared to their previous position.

SOLO TIER:

S Tier:
Sciomancer = 1 x 21, 2 x 5, 3 x 1, 4 x 1 (3) = 1.35 [+C]
Luminary = 1 x 21, 2 x 4, 3 x 3, (3) = 1.36 [+A]

A Tier:
Wayfarer = 1 x 17, 2 x 8, 3 x 2, 4 x 1, (3) = 1.54 [+B]
Indorani = 1 x 10, 2 x 13, 3 x 3, 4 x 1, (4) = 1.81 [==]
Teradrim = 1 x 11, 2 x 11, 3 x 2, 4 x 1, 5 x 1, (5) = 1.85 [+B]
Praenomen = 1 x 2, 2 x 13, 3 x 9, 4 x 1, (6) = 1.96 [+C]

B Tier:
Sentinel = 1 x 7, 2 x 12, 3 x 4, 4 x 1, 5 x 1, (6) = 2.08 [-A]
Shaman = 1 x 7, 2 x 11, 3 x 8, 4 x 1, (4) = 2.11 [-S]
Archivist = 1 x 3, 2 x 15, 3 x 7, 4 x 1, (5) = 2.23 [-S]
Zealot = 1 x 6, 2 x 10, 3 x 7, 4 x 1, 5 x 1, (6) = 2.24 [+C]
Syssin = 1 x 9, 2 x 10, 3 x 3, 4 x 5, 5 x 1, (3) = 2.25 [-S]
Monk = 1 x 7, 2 x 7, 3 x 7, 4 x 2, 5 x 1, (7) = 2.29 [-A]
Carnifex / Warden = 1 x 2, 2 x 18, 3 x 3, 4 x 2, 5 x 2, (4) = 2.41 [==]
Templar / Revenant = 1 x 4, 2 x 11, 3 x 10, 4 x 2, 5 x 1, (3) = 2.46 [-S]
Shapeshifter = 1 x 4, 2 x 8, 3 x 11, 4 x 5, (3) = 2.61 [==]

C Tier:
Ascendril = 1 x 1, 2 x 6, 3 x 8, 4 x 7, 5 x 3, (6) = 3.20 [==]

TEAM TIER:

S Tier:
Luminary = 1 x 20, 2 x 7, 3 x 1, (3) = 1.32 [==]

A Tier:
Monk = 1 x 16, 2 x 8, 3 x 4, 4 x 1, (2) = 1.66 [-S]
Sentinel = 1 x 13, 2 x 11, 3 x 5, (2) = 1.72 [==]
Shaman = 1 x 11, 2 x 14, 3 x 4, (2) = 1.76 [-S]
Carnifex / Warden = 1 x 12, 2 x 10, 3 x 6, (3) = 1.78 [+B]
Ascendril = 1 x 12, 2 x 6, 3 x 9, 4 x 1, (3) = 1.96 [==]

B Tier:
Sciomancer = 1 x 10, 2 x 10, 3 x 4, 4 x 2, 5 x 2, (3) = 2.14 [-A]
Praenomen = 1 x 7, 2 x 13, 3 x 3, 4 x 3, 5 x 1, (4) = 2.19 [==]
Wayfarer = 1 x 7, 2 x 12, 3 x 7, 4 x 2, 5 x 1, (2) = 2.24 [==]
Shapeshifter = 1 x 5, 2 x 13, 3 x 9, 4 x 2, (2) = 2.28 [==]
Indorani = 1 x 8, 2 x 9, 3 x 7, 4 x 3, 5 x 1, (3) = 2.28 [-A]
Templar / Revenant = 1 x 5, 2 x 11, 3 x 9, 4 x 3, 5 x 1, (2) = 2.45 [-A]
Teradrim = 1 x 4, 2 x 12, 3 x 8, 4 x 2, 5 x 2, (3) = 2.5 [-A]
Archivist = 1 x 6, 2 x 8, 3 x 8, 4 x 2, 5 x 4, (3) = 2.64 [==]
Zealot = 1 x 1, 2 x 10, 3 x 9, 4 x 3, 5 x 2, (6) = 2.8 [+C]

C Tier:
Syssin = 2 x 4, 3 x 10, 4 x 8, 5 x 6, (3) = 3.57 [-B]

I'll do a little commentary like I did before, so here's a quick take-away from this.

TOP AND BOTTOM DOGS:

The new champion Sciomancer (solo) has risen, taking the mantle from what I thought would likely be either Luminary or Wayfarer. This isn't too much of a shock to me, they have a lot of powerful forks and some of their best afflictions cannot be cured by random means. They also have great defensive means.

Luminary (team) takes the cup in over all other classes when it comes to teams. No other class stands in its tier. They have a huge variety of powerful team skills and a great ability to fortify their teams position. They're also pretty tanky and can pop a number of skills to live for longer. It's pretty hard to think of what they don't do well.

Ascendril (solo) sits at the bottom despite being a relatively new class. There were some things that were cut from the affliction side before release, as the limb side of things seemed really strong. Perhaps its time they got some of the missing skills.

The position of Syssin (team) isn't unexpected. As an assassin class their theming and feel is supposed to be attractive to those who enjoy the lone wolf style of play. Having said that perhaps a few new tricks up their sleeve for teams couldn't go wrong.

INTERESTING POINTS:

There was a lot more people this time around who chose unsure as an answer. A little surprising, but with more voters compared to last time, I think its safe to say that just happens when more people chime in.

Templar had one of the biggest drops from S to B tier, despite their solo ability not really being touched much. Shaman and Archivist had similar drops, but they have been altered in their solo capacity.

Praenomen jumped up in solo, from C to A tier. The biggest change for them is likely the loss of a healing malus at low blood thanks to the Sanguine ability. The minion is also harder to outright kill. Sciomancer also rose but they are a completely new class compared to last time.

Teams mostly remained the same without too much of a shift. Less S tier classes however.

Finally, there was 13 voters from shadow, 14 from spirit, and 4 from both.

Tetchta · April 2021

Yo can we get a version of this for PVE because I have opinions!

Keroc · April 2021

Tetchta said:
Yo can we get a version of this for PVE because I have opinions!

For most, I'd say probably Carnifex at the top? I'm not really certain though.

Elene · April 2021

Am I not surprised about the Team tiers being almost all of Spirit classes. >_>

Saidenn · April 2021

I am curious, @Keroc, is this survey mostly informational or does it also spur deeper investigation or review of classes, synergy, and viability? I know I left a lot of commentary on the survey, is that taken into account for anything behind the scenes?

The limited classleads of the past year have many of us (or at least me) wanting more opportunities to provide and see feedback implemented, and this felt like an opportunity for that. Will that be the case?

Rijetta · April 2021

Dang, I missed voting. I can't say I agree with some of these - I think there are probably a lot of misconceptions on some of the A ranks in both categories, and some opinions swayed by mob rules, and lack of seeing things in action. If we could get two good fighters in every class I think we'd see a lot of shifting.

Keroc · April 2021

Rijetta said:
Dang, I missed voting. I can't say I agree with some of these - I think there are probably a lot of misconceptions on some of the A ranks in both categories, and some opinions swayed by mob rules, and lack of seeing things in action. If we could get two good fighters in every class I think we'd see a lot of shifting.

The score totals are all really close. For the most part I'd say A and B tiers are close enough that they're probably about the same in power level.

Iesid · April 2021

The data for it seems fairly close to this point anyways but I do think Sentinel belongs in S tier for teams.

The only thing it doesn't do that well is tank and it still has vitality, chainmail, etc.

It has tools to support every general strategy in some capacity, brings a still solid insta, has traps for entrenchment, has ranged options in the very rare opportunity those are useful, etc. If we had a 2v2 bracket, I would struggle to find a better partner for several classes.

Xavin · April 2021

I sort of feel like Ascendril is maybe a bit high in teams. Don't get me wrong it's definitely good but I think some of the perception is down to most of the regular team Ascendril being quite heavily kitted out with artifacts for damage output.

Mazzion · April 2021

Teradrim is too high, that evaluation above is pre nerfs.

Illikaal · April 2021

Rijetta said:
Dang, I missed voting. I can't say I agree with some of these - I think there are probably a lot of misconceptions on some of the A ranks in both categories, and some opinions swayed by mob rules, and lack of seeing things in action. If we could get two good fighters in every class I think we'd see a lot of shifting.

Hard agree with this. I definitely believe Sentinel to be at least A tier, for example. I think Prae deserve B, if not a C for reasons that are obvious to those that know how they badly they struggle with locking vs competent curing, for example

Wayfarer to me is a hard egg to crack because I feel as if should absolutely roll over any class without fitness due to its fast afflicting, ignoring of rebounding, immunity to clumsiness, and use of exhaustion to bolster accuracy while simultaneously creating a fork in curing which is dangerous for the first mentioned reason when they can already push things like lethargy/paresis/clumsiness. Even then, fitness classes aren't that much more difficult to deal with against them either. Is there like an A+ tier?

Edit: Do keep in mind this is the perspective of a class with the dreaded Elder Shaman + Tranquility. The problem in the wayfu matchup is because of how you can't ignore clumsiness because of how fast they throw, setting you up for ez lock with slaughter + muddled. You have to often prio paresis or paralysis because panacea will not work with the former and tranquility will not work with the latter. Once you are locked with paresis, which is easy, you're pmuch done.

Bulrok · April 2021

Wayfarer was hard for me to judge in 1v1. Pre punished arms nerf it would be hard to convince me that it wasn't the best class in the game, especially since you could (and still can) open the fight with punished arms immediately and unavoidably. The RNG makes it, well, RNG.

Alela · April 2021

I literally didn't see this poll until today, and it was apparently closed after a day, without even bumping it first. RIP my extremely important opinions.

Bulrok · April 2021

Groups:

A year ago I would have hands down agreed that spirit had the better team set up, but no one on shadow uses half of their abilities, instead opting to play in inoptimal ways because that's what they find to be more fun. You can load a person up with Eradicate suggestions and snap them once the fight starts, while an Indorani tosses Fool/Priestess on them to make them damn near unkillable. There's Ethereal from Archivist, Absorb from Archivist, shielding from a few classes, etc, but all of it goes completely unused and ignored. I even hard coded it into Rime and people still wouldn't use it. It's not even a question of whether it's effective or not, cause they do work and help change the flow of a fight. So I couldn't give an honest assessment of Shadow's abilities either.

Eradicate alone is probably the most broken ally support skill in the game because it's prepped before hand, but you know, that'd be effort and stuff.

Benedicto · April 2021

Bulrok said:
Groups:
A year ago I would have hands down agreed that spirit had the better team set up, but no one on shadow uses half of their abilities

I've been thinking of some way to say the same without being called out for being partisan or whatever. I cannot agree enough.

Elene · April 2021

Bulrok said:

Groups: A year ago I would have hands down agreed that spirit had the better team set up, but no one on shadow uses half of their abilities, instead opting to play in inoptimal ways because that's what they find to be more fun. You can load a person up with Eradicate suggestions and snap them once the fight starts, while an Indorani tosses Fool/Priestess on them to make them damn near unkillable. There's Ethereal from Archivist, Absorb from Archivist, shielding from a few classes, etc, but all of it goes completely unused and ignored. I even hard coded it into Rime and people still wouldn't use it. It's not even a question of whether it's effective or not, cause they do work and help change the flow of a fight. So I couldn't give an honest assessment of Shadow's abilities either. Eradicate alone is probably the most broken ally support skill in the game because it's prepped before hand, but you know, that'd be effort and stuff.

Would agree that there's quite a few skills that goes unused or unexplored, and that Shadow strategies are uninventive compared to Spirit's, but you have to understand not everyone uses Msys or Rime + there are stubborn mindsets as well. The ones right now who come to lessers are those who can barely code themselves and rely heavily on darkside and sunder (and lol Zmud). We work with who we got, unfortunately.

That being said, I still do think we have far less skills to play with than Spirit does, especially with room setups, and I would also like more access to that, or abilities to counter them. Mirrors do this nicely.

Bulrok · April 2021

When I said I coded it into Rime, I meant that people using Rime still didn't use these abilities. >.>

Seurimas · April 2021

I mean, I'd love to give Eradicate a real try sometime, but I have trouble seeing how a mental aff cure every 5 or so seconds is going to turn the tide of any battle. Most mental aff heavy offenses are shadow based, I think. At best you break a full lock by hitting anorexia, but, at that stage, asthma is probably buffered so maybe you can eat opiate and escape. If you don't have a broken leg by then too.

Bulrok · April 2021

Pretty massive, is how. Their group kill routes are pretty decent, they don't waste time affing affs they don't need if a sentinel is present. Which means it's not padded. Which means any eradicate proc that cures anything has an incredibly good chance of hitting Imptiance or Confusion. Either cure probably means Confusion is cured or the lock is broken and they can cure another Spinecut aff. This means the Sentinel spends a round affing instead of spinecutting. Maybe delaying the Sentinels spinecut a turn means the Sentinel dies before they get the spinecut off. Then it's 5v4 in Shadow's favor before it's 4v5 in Spirits favor. The main target is probably going to die anyways, sure, but delaying that time means you're keeping everyone else alive longer.

Also, I even stated this before: because it's prepped before hand. You don't need to code any special stuff in to use it. You could add more stuff in to make your snapping more efficient (snapping the person getting hit vs. just snapping everyone). Its power lies in its ease of use. You set it up before the fight, fire it off once the fight starts, forget about it. You get to keep doing your offense while passively assisting your allies. And it if doesn't work, and it doesn't save anyone? Then it's like you didn't use it. All it requires is the syssin to just hit 2-3 important targets on their team while they're waiting on other people to gather, and getting shadow to do this is impossible.

Every little bit helps. If you don't think it does, then don't use it. I don't care. I've used it. I've seen it in action. I've seen the difference it makes. Shadow refusing to even try to do anything beyond the mindless is why I don't care to participate in group PK at all anymore. It's reminiscent of when I begged and pleaded people to start using disperse. A lot of opinions stated as facts with 0 testing, all theory crafting, that I eventually proved as wrong as I got more people on board with using it.

Seurimas · April 2021

I remain firmly unconvinced, mostly because I rarely die from spinecut these days. The Spirit offense de jour is more limb-dependent damage based. Heck, as a mostly non-artifacted player, I mostly just get chunked down to 0 at an alarming rate. Getting spinecut would be a surprising treat.

I'm in no way saying there's not more Shadow could be doing in group fights but Spirit tools being easier to use is still a point in their favor. Not to knock the incredible effort and coordination that goes into their group combat (because I definitely see it), but their group options are just easier to use than the active or semi-passive cures that only sometimes counter their strategy. How can that actually compare to the powerhouse that is the Luminary class? Or the simple efficiency of Spinecut or BBT? Maybe similar things exist for Shadow, but Eradicate is not it.

Bulrok · April 2021

God I hate talking with Aetolians about PK. Do I really have to point out how Spirit not using Spinecut does not take away the validity of the power of Eradicate? Like, really? This isn't a debate club. You can win the argument by attacking the specific example all you want, but it doesn't change reality. If it's not meta, then don't use it in the meta. That doesn't mean it's not strong when it's usable.

Yeah, Eradicate is definitely not it if you're dying to damage. If only there was an audit boosting ability, a damage soaking ability, or a health restoring ability that could be used on allies.

Edit: I want to elaborate further on this debate club crap. Winning an argument/debate on the forums by hyper focusing on specific points and tearing them down doesn't actually do anything in regards to how mechanics work. Aetolians do this crap all the time, it's part of the politics that's ingrained into the culture. It's stupid, please quit it. Disproving one point with, what, circumstantial evidence? And hyperfocusing on it like Eradicate is all I mentioned? Do you think Keroc is watching the forums and going 'wow they won the debate I guess I better change the way stuff works to fit their narrative'? There's a whole plethora of skills being ignored entirely, not just Eradicate.

Seurimas · April 2021

What I'm saying is Eradicate counters narrow, specific strategies. If the enemy does not use them, it does not do much at all. And it requires considerable setup on the part of Syssin, more than virtually any other group option I can think of.

And I will counter the specific example because it's actually the only thing I'm taking issue with. Eradicate. Not that great. I wish it were, but I just cannot see it at all.

Edit: to respond to your edit, I'm not hyperfocusing on Eradicate to win. I'm hyperfocusing because it's what I know. I would love if Eradicate were everything you said it is, but it's not. If I'm going to spend 15-25 seconds per ally setting up a defensive hypno chain, I want it to be something more than a semi-reliable counter to a niche strategy. It's just not worth it. You're right, it's not fun.

Elene · April 2021

Come group PK with me, and we can get frustrated together!

Rijetta · April 2021

"I'm dying to spinecut!"
Why didn't you use eradicate?

"Well, I'm dying to damage!"
Priestess, Congeal + Shade, Soul Shield, Sand Shield

There. I've solved both. The point is we have things we aren't using to their maximum effectiveness. Spirit is using their deadliest tools to maximum effectiveness - whether theirs are easier to use than ours is irrelevant in this case.

Saidenn · April 2021

Bulrok said:

God I hate talking with Aetolians about PK. Do I really have to point out how Spirit not using Spinecut does not take away the validity of the power of Eradicate? Like, really? This isn't a debate club. You can win the argument by attacking the specific example all you want, but it doesn't change reality. If it's not meta, then don't use it in the meta. That doesn't mean it's not strong when it's usable. Yeah, Eradicate is definitely not it if you're dying to damage. If only there was an audit boosting ability, a damage soaking ability, or a health restoring ability that could be used on allies. Edit: I want to elaborate further on this debate club crap. Winning an argument/debate on the forums by hyper focusing on specific points and tearing them down doesn't actually do anything in regards to how mechanics work. Aetolians do this crap all the time, it's part of the politics that's ingrained into the culture. It's stupid, please quit it. Disproving one point with, what, circumstantial evidence? And hyperfocusing on it like Eradicate is all I mentioned? Do you think Keroc is watching the forums and going 'wow they won the debate I guess I better change the way stuff works to fit their narrative'? There's a whole plethora of skills being ignored entirely, not just Eradicate.

We have had this discussion before. As it has been pointed out, not everyone knows how to code beyond plugging in a system and hitting start. I think Shadow suffers more in that we do not focus our efforts to help each other but have our systems divided and kept to exclusive groups. It is the prerogative of the system makers to do that and I am not saying they should change how they offer access, but it does mean that the more publicly available stuff (Sunder and Darkside) has abysmal or non-existent shadow support.

As for support, it is underutilized, but just as the discussion before you miss the point of why people participate in the first: milestones. And you do not get milestones if you do not at least hit someone. This leads to most attempting to kill to make sure they didn't just "waste" their time. Winning is great, but winning without the milestones can feel like an empty victory.

And then I will echo @Elene. Come participate. Offer coding pointers or advice for our newer players. Help them improve or even learn how to code. Help improve what is more publicly available. Or, don't. And keep calling us all a bunch of collected idiots who all know less than you.

Bulrok · April 2021

Rereading this, you're either intentionally gas lighting or unintentionally gaslighting. Either way this is all very hard to follow. Your first complaint was you don't see how it would change the tide of *any* battle. I listed an example of a battle it would effect. Then you attacked it by saying they're not using Spinecut. I didn't give the example saying it would work against damage?

I listed out effects that were all not being used. I said Eradicate was powerful and I said why (because it doesn't require a lot of code heavy work like fool/priestess/etc to be usable, it's fire and forget, etc etc). And you latched on to Eradicate. I just...what? Come on.

Rijetta · April 2021

Darkside still gets updated.

Seurimas · April 2021

Bulrok said:

Rereading this, you're either intentionally gas lighting or unintentionally gaslighting. Either way this is all very hard to follow. Your first complaint was you don't see how it would change the tide of *any* battle. I listed an example of a battle it would effect. Then you attacked it by saying they're not using Spinecut. I didn't give the example saying it would work against damage? I listed out effects that were all not being used. I said Eradicate was powerful and I said why (because it doesn't require a lot of code heavy work like fool/priestess/etc to be usable, it's fire and forget, etc etc). And you latched on to Eradicate. I just...what? Come on.

To be fair, you latched onto Eradicate, too. You said "Eradicate alone is probably the most broken ally support skill in the game because it's prepped before hand, but you know, that'd be effort and stuff." And you're right. On paper, Eradicate is an outlier of efficiency. In practice, it's just not that good. It takes a lot of effort on the part of Syssin, effort that is probably not going to be rewarded because it only sometimes helps with a few specific strategies. If they're not using Spinecut or done other mental aff strategy? It's a bunch of wasted effort. Even if they do go a Spinecut route, damage is still happening and it's still wasted effort. That's my point bringing up damage. Maybe I'm just shocked by how non-Syssin classes can just kill me with damage while also meating out a similar aff rate sometimes, but nothing in Spinecut route meaningfully slows down a non-Spinecut kill. Even in the Spinecut meta, you still die pretty quick.

Edit: Apologies. I don't drink often but I am a bit drunk. I will sign off for the night instead of continuing probably being incoherent in ways that seem malicious.

Bulrok · April 2021

Saidenn said:

We have had this discussion before. As it has been pointed out, not everyone knows how to code beyond plugging in a system and hitting start. I think Shadow suffers more in that we do not focus our efforts to help each other but have our systems divided and kept to exclusive groups. It is the prerogative of the system makers to do that and I am not saying they should change how they offer access, but it does mean that the more publicly available stuff (Sunder and Darkside) has abysmal or non-existent shadow support.

As for support, it is underutilized, but just as the discussion before you miss the point of why people participate in the first: milestones. And you do not get milestones if you do not at least hit someone. This leads to most attempting to kill to make sure they didn't just "waste" their time. Winning is great, but winning without the milestones can feel like an empty victory.

And then I will echo @Elene. Come participate. Offer coding pointers or advice for our newer players. Help them improve or even learn how to code. Help improve what is more publicly available. Or, don't. And keep calling us all a bunch of collected idiots who all know less than you.

Well, like I've already said, I've coded this stuff into Rime, and it's a nightmare to get even them to use it.

Also, I don't know if you had a character before Saidenn and just never saw it, but for most of my Aetolian life that's what I've done. I've taught, I've helped, I've even written code for people, I've shared previous systems, I've talked shop, brainstormed ideas for other peoples offense, it's just sort of what I did for the better part of my Aetolia career. I'm very much over it when most of it goes ignored, especially when it's ignored because someone 'feels' that facts aren't facts.

Milestones/participation - No. What? No. Milestones are relatively new. Lessers have existed for a long time. People fought then, they fight now. Milestones did not change that by any metric I have seen. Do not use that to retroactively justify peoples performance.

Me participating again: No. You're actually one of the big reasons I don't care to, after your flat out refusal to do anything more than make an alias, even if the code was written for you. I sort of just gave up after that.

@Seurimas Ok.

Edit: I didn't see the idiots part until after I had posted. - I wasn't trying to be hostile with any of this. I know I'm not great at that, but probably best you don't help me be any more aggressive than I am naturally.

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