Aban at a Lesser!

A few of you were angry today when Aban took part in a Lesser! Let me address that real quick.

Under old Aetolia rules Abhorash did that once or twice. Aban has too. It's been a long time so it passed out of memory. As old as it may be, I never changed that rule. (And there is a rule, they get graced when they die and moved somewhere else)

The bad look here is that an admin took a side. We never want bias, so that's hardly what we were going for. We just felt like Spirit might appreciate some bolstering and rah-rah, a little admin attention. Things have clearly changed, so I'll amend the rule and you won't see this sort of thing again.

Let's make this a learning moment. What's your opinion? Is it better if the Adminchar dies instead of the grace stuff? Can this be done without frustration? The goal was to blur the line between NPCs being animated and never helping, or Gods just throwing lightning and blowing people up. Note, I ask this for education, not that we're going to make binding decisions with quick consensus here.

Other thoughts:
Is it okay if there's no XP loss?
Events only?
Do we need to make sure someone is active on both sides?
RijettaCaynAloli
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Comments

  • I need more time to cool down before I make any further comments other than this question: why would characters like Aban or Abhorash care about ylem or any other minor conflicts?
    Rijetta
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee
    Probably would bother people less if it was some sort of conflict mechanic or event the NPC itself initiated and not just day to day power struggles.
    RijettaIazamat
  • RijettaRijetta Nowhere Important
    Aban has been critically wounded and forced to retreat by Rijetta.

    That as the deathsight, automatic teleport to the temple of the gods, and make him use a player skillset like zealot or templar with some special buffs to represent his unattainable badassery and I'd be perfectly happy to try and pop that deathsight. Woundsight. Whatever!

    Also I don't want anyone on shadow side. If abhorash shows up I'll kill him myself.
    A low, sultry voice resounds within the depths of your mind, "I look forward to seeing your descent."
    StineKerocAloliIesidTeani
  • I understand why people are not happy about this. In fact, I was a bit uncomfortable with him coming as well. It's not that I don't appreciate the sentiment, but if it was the other side who had an admin character joining I'd probably be pretty frustrated too.

    I think there are other ways for the admins to show both sides support without actually doing anything that would tip the scales directly. I actually feel similarly when I see the Shadow gods favouring the Shadow cities as often as they do, especially when in the last two months where I've been here it feels like Spirit has had it much, much less. I can count maybe twice where it has happened.

    Perhaps another way of looking at it is to ask why you guys feel the need to give Spirit some bolstering. I'm not saying there is any admin bias here, but the truth is that it seems like Shadow -does- get more attention just because their gods have been more active in general. I think if both sides had at least the perception of the Gods being active on a similar level then we wouldn't be in a situation where you might feel there is a need to use measures such as this.
    IazamatStineRijettaAeryxRhineDrystinCaynBenedictoAloli
  • TiurTiur Producer
    Iazamat said:

    I need more time to cool down before I make any further comments other than this question: why would characters like Aban or Abhorash care about ylem or any other minor conflicts?

    It was more about rallying the troops than ylem. I think I speak for a lot of volunteers when I say that there is some frustration about the lack of a middle between doing nothing and hosting an event.
    RijettaOonaghRhineAeryxZailaAloli
  • edited December 2019
    Honestly, let the players kill an admin controlled character. If he is not Divine, and is able to die...
    We are always talking about IC repercussions for IC actions, SEE: Indorani

    Let this kind of stuff upset the balance and have IC repercussions. Shells should not be immune to the repercussions that players face.
    The bias has nothing to do with tethers as much as it has much to do with failures to drive the story in a meaningful and impactful manner, which is important.

    Seeing a powerful Akkari fall in battle...would be an amazing RP plot point that could be utilised in storytelling for the volunteer/admins to use to bolster or empower through grief/loss.
    Immunity and avoidance of repercussions, has little story driven meaning and only causes bad feels.

    StineIesidRhineDrystinCayn
  • RijettaRijetta Nowhere Important
    As an aside to my earlier post, I have the distinct honor of having been directly pked to death, willingly, by both abhorash and aban. When abhorash showed up and didn't throatrip me, actually gave me a chance to fight back, even though it was impossible for me to win, I felt energized, noticed, special.

    I would deeply hate to lose the potential for that interaction, because it provides me with an eternal carrot: if I win, I'll be unicornsing legendary 
    A low, sultry voice resounds within the depths of your mind, "I look forward to seeing your descent."
    StineIesidAeryxRhineDrystin
  • I am going to be harsh here, because you asked for feedback:

    I think it was fine and people that offered complaints are just bellyaching. I think you shouldn't take the incendiary reaction from Shadow as indication that this should never happen again. You should look at how you can improve the experience instead of saying we can never have it. Here's some feedback I'd give after fielding a few discussions with players on the other side (thank you for your civility @Rijetta and @Bulrok ) ...

    1. Don't let them participate in conflict that clearly matters. I might be in the minority, but lessers as a conflict mechanism are old enough where they possess much the same quality as Who's Line does: the rules are made up and the points (ylem) really do not matter. This means don't let Aban show up to majors or orrery or anything else with discernible rewards that aren't a pointless tallying of a resource we don't really care about accruing these days.

    2. Tune Aban, Abhorash, or other shells to not be an absolute pain to fight. If you want them to be a little extra powerful, cool. What I've heard from other people is that Aban is not fun to be hit by or fun to hit. Every complaint that I seem to hear comes down to the fact that Shadow decided to try hitting him and couldn't, wasting valuable rounds where we went through Shadow's team like a hot chainsaw through butter.

    3. If an NPC shell dies, make their death be a 'narrow escape' and then we rely on Aban's pilot to respect scout's honor and not come back. Woundsight, as @Rijetta said! I would love to see Shadow players gain fame lines like 'She bested the Hand of the Il'ahji in combat.' for bringing those characters down. I could definitely see this then becoming a really cool and rare collectible. 'Spiritbane' comes to mind as an example title for such a neat fame!

    4. I'm of the opinion that it is getting tiring to hear NPCs prattle on about the importance of their values and then expect PCs to be the ones to back up those claims. Aban actually showing up is a force multiplier for the relevance of Duamvi as a Spirit concept.

    The problem with Aban showing up to this specific lesser is that the first fight was an exceptionally strong lineup on Shadow's end of the field and Spirit was, as usual, a ragtag crew of lower-end players who are just trying to get their guild progression done or their city points tallied. The moment Aban volunteered to come help out, Spirit felt galvanized because of this: the only time Spirit gives a shit is when the narrative forces them to. If you can capture that specific lightning in a different bottle, maybe do that... but really, what I notice about the psychographic profile of Spirit players is that they don't want to participate in something unless they know it is admin generated. We have finally come out of a wintry environment recently where none of us really roleplayed with one another and were trapped in our own personal bubbles; the only thing that ever popped that bubble before (and sometimes still) is a god shoving their way into Spirit's comfort zone and bodychecking them out of it.

    More than anything, I must reiterate: do NOT take the extreme path here. Do not take the potential of this experience away. This was a terrific experiment and you can make something fantastic by incorporating feedback in a way that doesn't entail ruling out doing this again.
    StineIazamatAeryxRhineDrystinHawaCaynBulrokBenedictoAloliXavin
  • AeryxAeryx Docking Nipsy's pay
    So, when this happened earlier, I was leading the lesser from our side. This lead to me getting an OOC tell complaining about Aban, and someone who wasn't even at the lesser complaining at me on Discord in a DM. Like the others said, yes, I understand the frustration. I was even told by one of these people that 'maybe you should have told him not to come'. I really don't see any world where I would tell someone who is in fact finally giving us attention that they can't come. I also don't really find it appropriate for people to be complaining at me inparticular about it. Though again, I sympathize, because I too probably shouldn't DM someone on discord whining about getting bad beats in pk either.

    As for a solution, I think it would be fantastic to see these NPCs at lessers or majors again. With the caveat that they only fight each other. In that way, they're maybe locked in combat with each other and used as a thematic or flavorful approach instead of a mechanical approach. Whichever NPC 'wins' a fight with the other would be dictated by whatever side wiped out the other side, etc. Hell, you all could even schedule when you want to do these by having said NPCs be the ones to discover the lesser(while spawning it with admin commands). Maybe you could even tie a fame line to it if your side wins. 'Aeryx stood side by side with Exarch Aban as he slew Meanieface Bob' or something.

    There's a lot of potential for fun stuff here, I hope everyone sees that once they cool off.
    Childhood's over the moment you know you're gonna die.
    DrystinHawaCaynBenedictoAloli
  • Eh... imo I would like to see more of this, not less. The only thing about this I dislike is that he couldn't be killed or at the very least forced to flee as was previously suggested. I'm sure I'm in the minority but I've had only a tiny handful of interactions with divine and  it bugs me that they're so inactive. Sure, balance it out but I won't cry about dying in this situation. Why would I? Little wounded pride, a quick chat with that windbag Varian at the soul mirror and it's no biggy.

    Give me Dama and Bama at each other's throats, let it get physical and go beyond just emotes. As long as the players are able to hurt said divine or NPC or whatever and make an actual difference I don't see the problem.
  • Drystin said:

    Eh... imo I would like to see more of this, not less. The only thing about this I dislike is that he couldn't be killed or at the very least forced to flee as was previously suggested. I'm sure I'm in the minority but I've had only a tiny handful of interactions with divine and  it bugs me that they're so inactive. Sure, balance it out but I won't cry about dying in this situation. Why would I? Little wounded pride, a quick chat with that windbag Varian at the soul mirror and it's no biggy.

    Give me Dama and Bama at each other's throats, let it get physical and go beyond just emotes. As long as the players are able to hurt said divine or NPC or whatever and make an actual difference I don't see the problem.

    I just imagine Damariel being like that vine kid with "GoD AnD AnimE on HiS SidE"
    DrystinHawaCaynRhine
  • ArbreArbre Arbrelina Jolie Braavos
    Why -can't- he be killed? I mean, PCs get killed all the time, visit Varian, and are returned good as new, as Drystin said. Why not let Aban be REALLY FREAKING DIFFICULT to kill, but POSSIBLE, and when he dies give a short timeout while he's at the mirror then he returns to the party wherever they're grouped, just like any other PC. I wouldn't ever use him to LEAD the raids though, I don't know why that seems dodgy to me. Maybe I'm missing some lore here though.
  • RazmaelRazmael Administrator, Immortal
    edited December 2019
    Honestly, it's been well over 3 years since Aban has properly been used. He has some coded things that none of us even know are there anymore.

    The 'unkillable' part is one of those. Last time he was out and attending lessers he actually did get killed once or twice. I am looking into why he can't anymore, my guess is it was something temporary for an event that was later forgotten about.

    That rebounding bal knock sounds like it might just be a bug, I'll take a look into it.
    RijettaDrystinBenedictoAloliXavin
  • since i wasn't online at the time - and i don't intend to read the fight logs - i won't touch on what the experience or potential pay-off of fighting Aban may've been like. let me say something much more general, though.

    the complaints i hear from spirit RE admin attention generally fall into one of two categories: 1) lack of general interaction with gods, and/or 2) lack of blessings/boons (from gods). neither of these complaints is addressed by giving spirit a win button in a pvp (player-versus-player) conflict. have spirit gods just turn up to chat with people more often and give out blessings/boons. doesn't have to be big ol' events all the time - whichever volunteers play shadow gods seem to have had that figured out for ages. address the specific problem with specific (and tbh, the obvious) solutions rather than reinventing the wheel. whether or not this was "fun" or "fair" for both sides, it simply doesn't address the problems it was apparently intended to solve, and so in that regard, it's a failed attempt.
    (Congregation): Iosyne says, "I made a cup."

    Horkval are a feature...
    CaynIazamatMoxieBenedicto
  • edited December 2019
    @Iesid You had my civility until I read this thread. I don't appreciate the comment saying shadow players are 'just bellyaching'. I want to forget the past just as much as anyone when it comes to grievances with players and admin alike, but it's hard to do that sometimes. You're hand waving our rightfully earned paranoia about this. This is probably more infuriating, for me, than the events that actually took place. I've spent an hour at my keyboard trying to come up with a way to calmly and reasonably explain why this is uncool, and regretfully it's just made me more mad about it all. Maybe just don't, in the future? You can't thank someone for their civility while being uncivil yourself.

    As far as Aban himself? Fix the bugs. I'm not aware of the abilities, but apparently he does damage through rebounding. With a weapon. Keep him tied to lessers and other skirmishes that are meant to be fun and nothing else. Could use him and Abhorash both as a sort of equalizer to encourage resistance when one side outnumbers the other. Since it's controlled by a player, you could make informed decisions about when to offer that help, too! If it's Benedicto and 7 level 30 novices (or 30 level 7 novices???) vs. Shadows A Team, sure, bring him out.

    I think the idea is fun, but the implementation wasn't right this time. You guys seem to have this big deal where if something goes sideways on the first go, you just don't do it again. I'm supporting this to hopefully break you guys of this habit.
    Copperhead of the Third Spoke says to you, "Intelligence matrix in moniker Bulrok reveals above average results when compared alongside proximal presence."
    DrystinIesid
  • I'm not very invested in the struggle of Spirit vs Shadow, despite being pretty active in Shadow. I also wasn't able to get to the lesser where he showed up. I'm also pretty cool with losing for a lot of reasons most people would get upset with.

    Point is, maybe I'd feel differently if any of those things were different, but I would be pretty happy with Aban as an occasional presence at lessers. Not as a balancing act, though maybe Shadow deserves an equally occasional Divine touch of their own, but just as a little extra spice. Lessers are getting stale. Everyone says it. Everyone knows it.

    That said, Aban showing up at a Lesser ought to be a call to action for both sides. There may need to be some sort of extra reward related to his participation to make it interesting. I'm not sure how or why Aban is so special, but him being in play should mean something besides the Spirit side getting an extra buff +1. Either super charge the lesser with Aban's special sauce or make Aban some sort of loot pinata. I want to be able to say to Shadow "Aban's there, we've gotta go". Counterplay is half the game, guys.

    All that said, it was an unfortunate oversight to put Aban in play without more testing and warning. It's an easy mistake to make, when you have the NPC basically waiting to be used, but a little restraint would have avoided a lot of sourness. It sounds like the Pools have recognized this and are taking steps to correct it, but I just hope they're the right steps. Knees probably feel very -jerky right now, but I trust cool heads will prevail and the result will be a better game for everyone.
    Didi has expressed her esteem of you for the following reason: Smart organized leader.
    Experience Gained: 47720 (Special) [total: 2933660]
    Needed for LVL: 122.00775356245
    DrystinZaila
  • BenedictoBenedicto Tentacles Errywhere!
    edited December 2019
    I think that this is a healthy discussion to have. In the moment, it might not have been the best of ideas to have Aban at a lesser due to the various issues it produced, but if the end result of that is that we're having this discussion and positive developments come as a result -- well, I'll chalk that up as a win.

    I'm going to echo some of the sentiments of @Iesid, @Mjoll, @Rijetta and @Bulrok;

    As the longest running Spirit leader in terms of combat, I can agree with what Iesid said about Spirit's apathetic attitude towards anything they feel isn't an admin event.

    Regarding admin involvement across tethers currently, there is an incredible difference in levels of interaction between players when there's an admin possessed shell saying 'Let's do something' as opposed to someone like me saying 'Could do with some help!' If there is something that can be done to improve those levels of involvement, I'm all for it. It is also highly depressing to know that you're fighting against Shadow folks who are rocking, in some cases, as many as three different blessings and all the benefits that those blessings provide to stats/damage resist/etc. Just having Aban around recently has prompted a much higher number of RP engagements both within the city and without. It's been nice to just know, if nothing else, that we're not being left completely in the wind.

    In terms of admin involvement in combat, I think as long as the mob is killable, has to retreat from battle and isn't wildly OP in a fight, I see no problem with them being involved in things like lesser combat. I saw earlier someone say why would Aban/Abhorash be interested in resources like ylem/orrery. I can't speak for Abhorash but Aban and the rest of the Duamvi rely on Enorian for protection/shelter. It's just as much their home as it is any other character or NPC who lives there. He would have a vested interest in making sure that Enorian has the resources to remain strong and capable of defending it's walls. Ylem plays a part in that.

    Rijetta's point about how badass would it be to get a 'killing' blow on one of these guys is something I wholeheartedly agree with. I love the fame lines that people have where it tells people they got the final blow on someone. It could also be something that actually helps/encourages people to turn out, like they do for big eld in majors, when they think there's a fame line to be had! Also also, it just adds a really interesting RP point to what is usually just PK mechanics driven event.
    image
    StineAloliIesid
  • Finding new ways to keep the recurring conflicts fresh and different is important to keep players invested. For myself personally yes, the fun of lessers wore off a long time ago. Even fights are rare, and exciting things happen equally rarely. It's normally one side getting stomped, and it varies and doesn't matter which side that is. It's still boring, both ways at least for me. Doing the stomping and being stomped. It is difficult to keep the same level of enthusiasm they first had. So the sentiment behind all this and trying to find new ways to motivate people and take part in them, that's good.

    But we can't rely on admin RP'ing with us for it all, set up new systems but it needs to be things players can manage themselves. We need to be able to drive the incentives, and when things are released run them ourselves. Treat them as something important, teach the novices about them, explain why it is important to win them. RP around them, there are things I can think of to motivate spirit to wanting to keep ylem out of the hands of shadow. The death of Niuri could be a good teaching example for them, about the greed of shadow and how letting us control the ylem en threatens all of existence. How we are greedy and would abuse it, and even our own gods would turn against us to save creation from our greed. Plenty of other examples too, there is a lot of lore to build around to motivate people to fight shadow for them. But it needs to be organized and presented from the leaders to everyone, and built into the culture.

    On a final note, I'd offer advice to stop using the term LOW-TIER combatants, and presenting it like they don't matter or don't count. Everyone helps. Even if they show up to just spam a bashing attack, or are just there and soaking up attacks, it helps. Discounting them, making them feel like it doesn't count, calling them low tier, will discourage involvement far more than anything admin can do or not do. No one will want to come or help or try, if they get put down for doing it the first few times they try. That kind of attitude would scare me right out of a game. Or at least out of trying to do any PK or conflicts. Every bit helps, and you shouldn't be negative about having inexperienced people helping, or call them low tier. They are the next batch of your top fighters, they should be encouraged, and if you have a bunch of them showing up that's a good thing, it means the next generation wants to get involved and come up. Teach them, help them, support them, stop calling them low tier. I can't think of something more unhealthy for the future of an organization than demoralizing everyone that's not super experienced, and discourages them from ever getting there.
    IazamatRebraAeryxMoxieHawa
  • I simply can't agree to admin-controlled characters showing up to ylem conflict, no matter how inconsequential some find them. As lessers/majors remain our only form of regular world conflict with any stakes (orrery is scheduled, pointless, and largely despised as a conflict system), I don't want admin interference in one of the few things we have available for duking it out. Even more so when one considers it's the only outlet for PK some have. It doesn't matter how fair or balanced the admin-driven shells might be.

    If we had any other regular means of world, player versus player conflict, I might relent to these shells showing up to lessers during the odd blue moon. I'm also perfectly fine with people wanting to go 1v1 with the shells, but Aetolia is not currently in any state to handle what was attempted here, especially not after multiple scenarios of perceived bias (that never found resolution, had players lied to, and are still clearly being felt now by both tethers). I'm glad that people think it's cool, but it doesn't change the fact that it's wildly inappropriate and only engenders hurt feelings from the side that doesn't get the advantage, nor does it teach a side to improve, only rely on the admin to bail them out. Emir used to claim that we had a problem of the playerbase waiting on the admin for everything, this only further reinforces that notion.

    I'm trying to be fair here, I'm trying to convey why I see this as a negative experience, and to see my reactions called incendiary and knee-jerk while people proudly flaunt their tether tribalism is both hypocritical and upsetting to say the least. If the shoe had been on the other foot last night, I would have felt the same way and been extremely sympathetic of people's negative experience. The current dismissive reaction from some doesn't encourage people being heard, and in a game with with sub-100 regular, active players, we can't afford not to listen. We're not an MMO with a vocal minority that can be safely ignored.

    To answer the thread's questions:

    Is it okay if there's no XP loss?

    Yes. Exp means nothing and is, at this point, a largely outdated concept and poorly maintained system that's only served to foster specific mindsets (such as defeatism after a single setback).

    Events only?

    Yes. Whether that's a world versus some big bad or both tethers versus Daixomoth/Aban/Abhorash or even a single tether locked into mortal combat with the admin shell and his player companions, this will always be the better way to handle special NPCs and shells. If they show up, it should be because their presence means something and they have both a story and a purpose to advance for the game as a whole, not to "rally the troops". No side's apathy is going to be solved by an NPC showing up, it's temporary morale that will quickly be forgotten in the face of much deeper issues that need addressed by the players themselves.

    Do we need to make sure someone is active on both sides?

    It depends wholly on their purpose. If we're going to insist that they show up to world PvP outside of an event, then yes. You'll otherwise be dealing with accusations of bias and unfairness again. If they show up to events and players attack them/the shells are given sufficient motivation to attack players, then no.

    Honestly, I'm aware that I seem to be in the minority regarding the cool factor, fairness, and overall impact this may or may not have. I simply don't feel it's a worthwhile endeavor, especially because it puts the onus on either the admin to be fair about how often, when, and who they use these shells for or the players to put aside any negative feelings they may have when Abhorash shows up for the third time in a year and Aban hasn't been seen because he doesn't have an admin player.

    HavenRhyotBulrokHawaDrystinVasilissaBenedicto
  • I want to withdraw my support for this idea. Iazamat is right. It's Player vs. Player anyways. This will build into an unhealthy reliance on the administration for struggling orgs(tether?) when there are better avenues for the admin to take to assist. The first time this goes wrong one side will be filled with nothing but vitriol and hate for the admin and the other side. I wanted to be supportive for the sake of being supportive, but Iazamat provided a voice of reason I needed to hear.
    Copperhead of the Third Spoke says to you, "Intelligence matrix in moniker Bulrok reveals above average results when compared alongside proximal presence."
    IazamatAloli
  • edited December 2019
    I just want to elaborate on a point that a few of us have touched on. In this instance, it was an admin directly being involved in the fight by taking on a shell that did take part in the battle. However, it's actually not that different from when Shadow comes to fights with 3 blessings while Spirit come with none. Ultimately they are both mechanical advantages that bring to the fight that one side was not able to obtain through no fault of their own.

    This of course only focuses on the mechanical benefits of the perceived difference in activity between Gods of the two tethers, and doesn't consider the roleplay and non-mechanical incentives having active divine in organisations. For many people, seeing your own gods shouting, or even being on WHO, can be an incentive to engage in that aspect of the game. I've seen IRE orgs die because they had long periods of inactive gods, just to be revived very soon after one or two come back to being active.

    The perceived activity of Spirit gods versus Shadow gods is actually the crux of the problem. That should be fixed rather than trying to come up with new ways to give mechanical benefits to either side just so they feel appreciated.
    AeryxIesid
  • edited December 2019
    I'm a pretty new player, but just wanted to add my two cents to the discussion. I personally think that Admins should be in a supporting role, showing approval when their ideals are followed and such, but never directly involved. I think Czcibor's suggestion is quite reasonable (blessings given out every so often, so long as enough essence has been offered), along with gods simply being more active via shouts. I personally love it when Chakrasul speaks to her followers for instance, and I'm sure Spirit players would feel the same way about their gods.

    EDIT: I also think it would be quite interesting for Admin characters to show up in day to day affairs, but without being involved directly in combat. For example, appearing in person and giving people tasks to accomplish would be a pretty awesome way to use those characters!
    HawaAeryxCzcienn
  • RhyotRhyot Bloodloch
    edited December 2019
    So speaking historically, there has been a lesser back around 2013-14 time frame where Abhorash showed up and shadow side won by a hefty amount because of a godmob NPC that couldn't be killed. Spirit showed up with their A-team... Valingar, Aishia, Bene, Trager, Dato, Haven and some random people who weren't whales.... back then, Spirit tether griped and whined just as much then that it happened to them, that Shadow side is saying now "That was garbage, you have an admin helping you."

    If you are having trouble with getting players to rally to you and fight, that means there's more that you (as leaders) can and should be doing to get people interested to do so. You shouldn't need admin intervention to push you to do something. That's called an excuse and a crutch.

    While I understand that everyone plays a different game than everyone else, at the end of the day, you can't force people to go. No matter how awesome Benedicto is at leading his team of Spirit players, he's going to burn out and someone else will need to be as charismatic, convincing, and enabling as he is. I could say the same thing about Mazzion, Mjoll, Iazamat, and Bulrok on Shadow side. All of these people have ideas and get people to actually WANT to fight with you.

    Ultimately, I do not think that you need admins fighting your fight at any sort of PVP event because it will ALWAYS generate a bias. That perception of bias is clearly seen in multiple threads where Iesid claims that Shadow side gets more god love than Spirit side (despite the fact that this is only recent), but Tiur says that Spirit needed a pick-me-up. Our perceptions are everything. And ultimately, if the admins get involved, at some point there WILL be a bias because its in human nature to want to support the people you're closer to. Everyone likes to win. Our celani are part of our community, and as such, are privy to the fallacy of human nature.

    That said, my vote will be to not allow admins or admin NPCs to be involved in any form of PVP conflict, player generated, event generated, or otherwise.


    Edit:
    Re: Blessings
    Correct me if Im wrong, but I'm pretty sure that players that have the right order privs can give a boon to their order/city. So I mean, if people are running around without boons/blessings... That could also be seen as a player solved problem vs an admin problem.

    Edit Edit:
    Since someone decided to explain the difference between boon and blessing... if blessings really are that much of a complaint about not having them, perhaps figure out a way to allow the Order Head to give a blessing to their city or something. This would resolve any form of possible complaints about not having them.


    AloliVasilissa
  • However, it's actually not that different from when Shadow comes to fights with 3 blessings while Spirit come with none. Ultimately they are both mechanical advantages that bring to the fight that one side was not able to obtain through no fault of their own.


    It is actually quite different. For the record, these are the mechanically important parts of a blessing in regards to PvP:

    * Reduces 5% of all damage done to you. Stacking only adds 2% thereafter.

    * Adds one point to all stats. Does not stack with other blessings.


    Three blessings would be, if I'm understanding this correctly, 9% damage reduction. It's not insignificant, but it's also not the game changer some make it out to be (speaking as someone who, until recently, often went long stretches without blessings). Given the right strategies and team coordination, 9% damage reduction can absolutely be negated. A point to all stats is arguably the more important aspect here, and that can be obtained via milestone wares if necessary, though it's important to note that milestone stats and blessing stat boosts stack.

    Meanwhile, a shell like Aban not only adds another body to your total party count, it has (or had, depending on what changes are made) special mechanics and a unique class that people don't have access to for testing and creating system defenses for. It is, in my opinion, far stronger than a simple blessing or three, especially in the right admin hands.

    I'll gladly concede the final part of your statement, that it's ultimately no one's fault for these things being unobtainable, but comparing the two otherwise as bare mechanical advantages is like comparing apples and oranges and, while not your intention, is a little disingenuous.

    Edit Edit:
    Since someone decided to explain the difference between boon and blessing... if blessings really are that much of a complaint about not having them, perhaps figure out a way to allow the Order Head to give a blessing to their city or something. This would resolve any form of possible complaints about not having them.


    We, as players, have suggested either auto-blessings or the ability to offer and bless oneself for 24 hours every 24 hours, but players and admin alike have balked at the idea in the past, and it's never been acted upon. I really think that if both tethers' gods can't be equally active and WILLING (this part is important) to bless, it's time to either ditch blessings giving mechanical advantages or make it possible for players to obtain the buffs on their own instead of relying on volunteers who all have their own rules and hang-ups around blessing freely.
    Hawa
  • +1 to the cardinal of the city being able to rotate through blessings from the divine on the advisory. It would give there some benefit to having a Divine on your advisory (still based on having at least x number of citizens in that order, I believe), and adds a bit more leeway to the Cardinal spot- perhaps they can only give a blessing from each god once a week, and have to decide which god blessing they use on which day. Even if a city manages to get active members in all 6 of their tether divine, they would still have to decide which day to short on that system. Granted, this would also require active Cardinals, and thereby active Divine patrons to appoint or replace one that isn't doing their job.

    It does add in the option for cities to try to actively recruit players from other orders that they don't have represented in their city, expanding on RP opportunities and possibly making cities work harder to try to get a certain mindset of people, and gives the added benefit of order membership having some sort of boost.


    Hawa
  • edited December 2019
    Iazamat said:


    comparing the two otherwise as bare mechanical advantages is like comparing apples and oranges and, while not your intention, is a little disingenuous.

    I disagree. A mechanical advantage is a mechanical advantage. If you don't agree, try fighting without your artifacts. It might not make a difference in every fight, but I guarantee you will feel it in many cases. That is what going into fights into a group of enemies all rocking 3 blessings when you have none is like.

    I'm not trying to justify Aban's involvement. I already stated that I am against it. I'm just pointing out that there is a good reason why many Spirit fighters might not be as sympathetic to the complaints about a mechanical advantage (admittedly in this case a large one) being given via divine means. This was one fight. The mechanical advantages Shadow gets through their blessings is almost every day.
    HawaDrystinBenedictoIazamat
  • AeryxAeryx Docking Nipsy's pay
    I'd like to note a few things about this as well that I haven't seen been talked about. Facts...in fact!

    1.) There were three battles at this lesser. The first battle we lost. The second battle, we won, because Aban came. Then Aban intentionally left, and told us he had to leave. Then the third battle happened, and we lost again. We lost 2-1 at this lesser, despite this 'insane advantage' we had.

    2.) Each side in this discussion is going to be inherently biased in one extreme or the other. There probably isn't much to be gleaned from this discussion, as such. I am 100% sure if this was flipped the other way in both sides cases it would produce the same sentiments on each side.

    3.) A lot of people who were 'inspired' to come to this lesser by the actions of Aban that wouldn't normally probably thought it was some event they wanted to attend. That's -typically- what NPCs are used for. We have no problem in most cases on Spirit side getting people 'inspired' to come to lessers.

    Really, I think losing 1 battle out of 3 at a lesser due to an admin played NPC and then saying that it will be the end of everything and cause people to 'depend on admin to fight their battles' is an incredibly exaggerated response, particularly when you take the history of anything like this happening in the past into account.
    Childhood's over the moment you know you're gonna die.
    IazamatHawa
  • edited December 2019
    Aeryx said:


    1.) There were three battles at this lesser. The first battle we lost. The second battle, we won, because Aban came. Then Aban intentionally left, and told us he had to leave. Then the third battle happened, and we lost again. We lost 2-1 at this lesser, despite this 'insane advantage' we had.

    Isn't this exactly the point?
    IesidStineHawaIazamat
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee
    Pretty much everyone has a good point, or at least no one has a bad enough one to roast them over it. Every side would probably be mad. It was kinda cool. We all want more attention. We hate feeling favored against. Don't screw with our meta unless you're screwing with our meta etc etc. I dony don this whole one. As much as I can boil it down to it's like: Sure, do this, but in it's own context instead of at routine things. Even if Aban like, tapped some sort of foci himself and was like I AM ABAN I AM TAKING THIS LESSER FOCI I TAPPED THAT NO NORMAL MORTAL COULD POSSIBLY FIND COME AT ME PUNY BROLINGS, I think the context would shift enough that people would be like. Oh... ok. I understand the appeal to admin to try to involve npcs in something that isn't just like A BIG WHOLE ENTIRE THING where they have to rewrite history or build a new area or something. Slice of life combat? I don't know.
    DrystinBulrokMjollZaila
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