EQ Crown

24

Comments

  • EmirEmir Member Posts: 124 ✭✭✭
    Why should anyone be mad about not getting a refund on it? I think you're looking at it wrong.

    You paid for a 7% speed increase.

    Crown gets deleted and abilities adjusted to compensate.

    The end result is you still have your 7% speed increase you paid for. Just now everyone has it. Assuming retirement value was fixed for compensation, everything is more or less the same but better, the economy isn't impacted (either negatively or positively) due to 850 bound cr coming in and future magelings and fireflies and sparklebats don't have to live off of Ramen for a full month to be on even ground with those of us who bit the bullet and made that sacrifice.

    You're literally losing nothing. Any bitter feelings about it is like when my grandpa use to tell me how he had to walk to school up hill both ways in the snow while I was getting on the school bus in the mornings.

    Don't get me wrong, deletion without a refund isn't my preferred solution either, but it is a solution that I feel is viable.
    (Web): Toz says, "Emir's Express Evacuation and Existence Eradicator, Every Experience is Explosive - Experience the Entirety of your Existence!"
    AishiaSeirJensenXavin
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 1,821 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That'd be an instant like, cancel subscription, consider quitting move for me. Really would breach my trust.




  • IlyonIlyon Member Posts: 746 ✭✭✭
    Emir said:

    The end result is you still have your 7% speed increase you paid for.

    I doubt many would see it that way, sorry. People get artifacts in order to get an advantage over others. You can dislike it, but, that's the way it is.

    Lin
  • DaegonDaegon CanadaMember Posts: 84 ✭✭✭
    I see what you mean Emir. But if I had to bite the bullet to get the artifact then everyone else should have to too. I'm all for helping novices prosper and the like. But if I had to come up with a way to buy the upgrades to be better in combat then so should others to come. Doesn't seem fair that I have to pay for someone else to get what I got for free.

    As an example. A homeless man asks me for money. Do I give him any? Sadly no. Not because I'm a dick, cause I've been homeless before, but because I worked my arse off to get what I have and i need every penny for the things I need/want. Now the story would be flipped if I was rich. My aspect on giving g the homeless money, and everyone else my artifact perk would be different. But it isn't, and I'm not. So I'm against the idea.
    'Those that do not attempt are those with the least stories to tell.'
    Satomi
  • KalakKalak Member Posts: 151 ✭✭✭
    Artifacts are good for business, but in the long run bad for the health of a game. Because when the bar of entry into PvP gets higher and higher, people start to feel that kind of activity is futile or unnecessarily demanding on their finite resources. Now dealing with EQ crown....will that suddenly make the game full of PvPers, everyone at each others' throats, rejoicing the change by a trail of piked heads? Absolutely not. But that will be definitely a right step towards lowering the bar.

    Of course this will not deal with the power creep which seems to have accumulated over years, but a dent within the armor could be the opening required to deal with the issue.

    (( Also I would suggest positioning maluses/bonuses for the game too (to prevent 70-armed men obliterating enemies one-by-one issue), but I do not wish to derail the thread. If a balanced idea occurs within my mind fitting to Aetolian combat, I might share elsewhere. ))
    Emir
  • SatomiSatomi Member Posts: 225 ✭✭✭
    edited April 23
    Grandpa walking uphill both ways in the snow is more closely related to my saying that PK used to involve actual button clicking instead of just turning on your AI. Being told that the credits/money I dumped into an artifact that is now gone, with nothing in return or any compensation upon its deletion is more like when I bought Guild Wars 2, and when Heart of whatever came out, they lumped GW2 and the Expansion together for a single price, telling previous owners that they have to pay full price just to get the expansion while everyone else pays the same to get both game and expansion.

    On one hand, yeah, the people who had it enjoyed GW2 the entire time. On the other hand, the company didn't even offer some form of recognition or perk or discount for owning the game, which pissed a lot of people off (myself included).

    I did end up buying the expansion for GW2, but it took me like.. 1-2 years before I even bothered to get it and play the game again. Now, I don't play much GW2 (used to play it constantly)
    Post edited by Satomi on

  • RhyotRhyot BloodlochMember Posts: 180 ✭✭✭
    Honestly, and this is my cold harsh opinion.... everyone needs to man up.

    Artifacts get nerfed or deleted as time goes on. In my time here alone I've seen the Syssin charm get nerfed, the Bloodborn artifacts (tablet/phial) were deleted, the wings/amulet were changed to a % hp limiting factor to run, Blackout artifact (Clarity) was nerfed, and the golden wrought hand was deleted. Those are just artifacts that I remember off the top of my head. There are dozens, dozens more if I chose to spend the next month and half combing through 2,676 announce posts.

    If the artifact was nerfed, you didn't get a refund or a message saying "Oh we're so sorry, did you want a refund on this artifact because it doesn't do what it did originally when you bought it?" Instead, you got mad/upset and moved on with your life but kept your artifact anyway. However, there's a huge difference between all those artifacts and the crown....

    The crown is a LITERAL NECESSITY TO FIGHT! PVP should not be 'You NEED this fight.' Artifacts are a "Oh look. Shiny! This will help me survive more!"

    Every other class in the game doesn't have an absolute NEED for any artifacts to fight. But if you want to play as an EQ Class (Lumi, Shaman, Prae, Mage), you NEED the crown to even be competitive. Otherwise we get to unicorns laugh at you and tell you how stupid you are for not being dual eq-enhanced.



    My take: Get rid of crown. If I get burned 850 credits, so be it. It's not ideal, but so be it. I would much rather see more people getting into the PK game than not.


    Solution: Change the way the enhancements work. 7% balance or 14% eq. That way, everyone has pretty much the same access to the eq speeds across the board.

  • SatomiSatomi Member Posts: 225 ✭✭✭
    I wasn't even asking for a refund. I don't know how the other artis were handled but I would at least expect to get the 50% or w/e return for turning in the arti, if it is going to be straight up deleted. I get that you're okay with just losing 850 credits, but the minimum expectation, I would expect from the majority of people who don't care for that idea, is to get the turnin value of the crown.

  • TrikalTrikal Member Posts: 129 ✭✭✭
    Chu talkin about Rhyot? I got a refund on charm, feather boiling pot, golden hand.
  • JensenJensen Corruption's Butcher Member Posts: 1,808 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm already heavily considering retiring my character.  If it was a no refund delete, I'd probably full retire from IRE.  I'm all for deletion, but not removal of my $$$ investment in the game.
    image
  • LinLin SMASHER/DEVOURER MASCHINEKLASTMember Posts: 1,560 mod

  • TozToz Member Posts: 2,153 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ok but again, that was sort of an example and a real far-fetched one. There have been like 10 ideas that involve balancing the artifact that isn't 'delete and don't refund', including 'the last time we did this it didn't ruin everything, so delete and refund'.

    +bal/+eq, doesn't stack with enhance, 800cr per +speed? Seems golden to me. You can keep your extra hp, making it like an extra 6% hp/mp artifact (which would be super helpful), then speed up all eq stuff by 7%.
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "I'll still never forget the first time I saw Toz throwing hammers."
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "I freaked out and thought they had somehow managed to pull me into them."
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "So I tumbled away from my team and into theirs."


    FezzixSatomiEmir
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 1,821 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Or just fix the classes that NEED~ it apparently. Speed up dwhisper speed but give it a set max speed.




  • TozToz Member Posts: 2,153 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Okay I did some math on page 1 that shows literally every class ~NEEDS~ it. Like, if you think you can get by 7% slower than everyone else, come fight me as neutral balance Carnifex. Or go fight @Emir as +eq (no crown) mage. It's just...that's such a huge, massive, DEMANDED thing to balance around.
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "I'll still never forget the first time I saw Toz throwing hammers."
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "I freaked out and thought they had somehow managed to pull me into them."
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "So I tumbled away from my team and into theirs."


  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 1,821 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'd like to see proof that a class can't make a kill route work without it. I know Shaman can. I'm pretty sure most other classes can. Not saying it's not a huge disadvantage. Not sure it makes a difference until you get to top tier levels, and then there are plenty of artifacts that are going to throw a fight one way or the other if one person has and the other doesn't. If a kill route has timing that just wont work without it, and it's the intended way a class will function, point out that specific set of skills, not just make vague statements about math.




  • TozToz Member Posts: 2,153 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 24
    @Aishia I...vague statements? I did the math on the first page, in the first 2 posts, showing things. If it's a huge disadvantage (as opposed to a crippling one, to clarify), can you name one artifact that you HAVE to have other than crown because it's a huge disadvantage to not have? EQ crown is the only artifact in the game that means you do 7% less hp damgae/mp damage/afflictions- Shaman CAN kill without EQ crown, but having played both with and without? It's way easier with. The same for mage. The same x100 for vampire, and people are saying it's the same for Lum. So it's every EQ class has this huge issue, and it's because the basic principles of math say that 7% worse is not equal.
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "I'll still never forget the first time I saw Toz throwing hammers."
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "I freaked out and thought they had somehow managed to pull me into them."
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "So I tumbled away from my team and into theirs."


  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 1,821 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm just asking for specific examples where a route won't work without it. Your examples seemed to all be BAL class examples.




  • LeharLehar farmMember Posts: 64 ✭✭✭
    edited April 24
    Luminary use BAL(shield) and EQ(chasten) on almost every attack round, except for a few specific attacks that you cannot. If I didn't have crown, my entire rotation would be 7% slower because I'm gated by EQ. EDIT: To show numbers, chasten with is 2.56. Chasten without is 2.75. That's .19s difference, every round - which is half the time that the confusion affliction would raise the time by.

    The same could go for Carnifex, who use soul attacks on an EQ basis. It may not be as often as Luminary or Monk, but it is a slowdown.

    Monks who use telepathy after their combos - with EQ crown it lines up perfectly.

    The comment of 'Not sure it makes a difference until you get to top tier levels' is somewhat unnerving. Everything is balanced around top tier, with everything available to you. This includes crown and suitable enhancements for +bal/+eq - if Keroc, or past liaisons, feel that classes NEED crown ( aka how skills are balanced ) to be at their maximum potential, what point are you trying to get across? The only discussion that should happen is top tier.

    Post edited by Lehar on
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 1,821 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Is it a matter of "weaker" or "won't work"? Just wondering about specifics. Like it is technically too slow to outpace curing without crown?




  • SatomiSatomi Member Posts: 225 ✭✭✭
    edited April 24
    I think any class can kill anyone, with enough effort, time, and skill.

    That being said, if I were fighting @Toz as an EQ class, and he had the ability (and I'm sure he's a lot better than this) to guarantee a kill on me 1 minute after the fight started, consistently, then the only way I could beat him would be to either hinder him hard enough that I can stay alive, or to outpace his combat with my own ability. If it took me precisely 1 minute and 3 seconds to kill someone, including Toz, well, I still lose 100% of the time because he beats me by 3 seconds. Buying a crown would net me roughly 4 seconds of speed towards my kill route. That leaves me at 59 seconds. Now I beat Toz 100% of the time.

    I understand that PK isn't as cut-and-dry as that, but my understanding of the argument for/against crown is that simple fact.

    If two identical Magi are battling one another, the one with Crown has a default advantage because his kill route is, say, 45 seconds while the other's kill route is 50 seconds. If they were using the same exact system and activated it at the same exact time, the one with Crown should, logically, win 100% of the time. (taking out variables like lag, system breaking, individual thought, etc etc)

    It's not that it doesn't work, it's just that the playing field is, by default, skewed by a $$ paywall that has people up in arms.

    Praenomen are a fringe case (I know that Old Praenomen was a bit on the side of screwed, cause no matter how good you are, 3.75s recovery time is just too slow to outpace curing)

    The equivalent for a balance class is, effectively, finding someone to forge you the perfect weapons, which is just time invested and gold spent. The Weapon Rune is nice, but diminishing returns is enough of a nerf for weapons, and it isn't necessary to be a fighter. Definite perk, though.

    Anyway, my take on it. tl;dr Most every EQ class can kill, just a skewed playing field with a $$ entry fee just to be potentially equal to everyone else. (People who actually play EQ classes will have to speak for the classes themselves.. like Toz.. and Rhyot.. Trikal!))

  • KalakKalak Member Posts: 151 ✭✭✭
    Aishia said:

    Is it a matter of "weaker" or "won't work"? Just wondering about specifics. Like it is technically too slow to outpace curing without crown?

    Imagine a neutral (not even enhanced) eq class without the artifact. The class will be 14% slower. While that might not seem too much it will pile up as the fight goes on. Even 7% difference as stated several times, will make a difference in offensive pressure. Also earlier in the thread I mentioned that "you could literally kill a person with 1 skillset as a Mage in MKO and you need less supplementary skillsets", to make a comparison for PvP barrier. Here you already have to invest in a lot into skills just to survive PvE/PvP, then you have to reach awesome Endgame and then you should have to do something about your sub-par speed. My whole reason to support anti-crown camp is to lower this draconian PvP barrier a bit.

    Of course this is not a chess game and there should be differences among people with artifacts and no-artifacts, just I strongly believe that attack speed should not be one of those differences.
  • TrikalTrikal Member Posts: 129 ✭✭✭
    Going to have to agree with @Lehar here, why would even discuss balancing scrub tier PK. If you balance for that, I'm going to wreck everyone, because I'll just be broken OP when I figure out how to use a class at it's full potential.

    I challenge anyone to kill me as a mage without crown. @Eliadon care to try fighting me without it to determine if the class is just fine without it? Or, do you like everyone else I know who's ever had success with mage know that without it you're neutered. Classes HAVE to be balanced around the fact that I and many others own crown, otherwise they'll be busted OP.
  • IllidanIllidan Pray AreaMember Posts: 962 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think its pretty safe to say given Aetolia's history of top tiier PKers influencing major balance changes that it's extremely ignorant to assume that ANYTHING shouldn't be balanced around top tier. Saying "Oh well you can make it work at this level" is just plain stupid. That's like saying "Oh Shamans are ok because you can cheese blackout/reclamation". That doesn't make the class strong, that makes the person that keeps on dying to it an idiot.

    I sit here and wonder sometimes how did we ever PK back in the day when SO many things were just busted beyond comprehension. Old Paralysis, old Mind sapience, old lycan hardened bones, old tekura guard, just to name a small handful of things. It wasn't until people started abusing these things at top tier that forced the necessary changes. Essentially if those people never came along, this game would probably still be in that horridly imbalanced state. The ONLY way to balance things is around top tier. Period.
                                    
                 Faaaaaaaaaaabulous!                                          Adorable!                                                               UHMAYZING!

    Calipso has been slain by the divine might of Razmael, the Synthesist.

    Illidan said: You already knew that there's some dumb-as-unicorns attention mongering wanna-be troll going around and robbing people.
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    EmirLin
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 1,821 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just said I wasn't sure it would even make a difference UNTIL that point. No need to fixate on one tiny thing like that. Not even the main point. Could you beat someone you could usually beat with it, without it?




  • TrikalTrikal Member Posts: 129 ✭✭✭
    I think Eliadon's response is pretty telling that mage requires it. He can beat me with it at a reasonable rate, but without (pls no.)

    Also 7% isn't a tiny thing, it's a pretty big thing, especially when the balance and eq timings of combat are already pretty tight at top end, a single misstep or hit into rebounding can completely change a fight between myself and Eliadon, Emir, Fezzix, or any other close matchup.
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 1,821 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I guess Shaman is a lot more forgiving on the offense but a lot less on the defense. I am sure I have my class fixation bias.




  • TrikalTrikal Member Posts: 129 ✭✭✭
    Everyone you can beat you can always beat with or without crown? Time to come join sect and show us all where it's at then.
    Fezzix
  • TozToz Member Posts: 2,153 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I fought @Emir 's lil' Ascendril when he had no crown, using a Scio offense he wrote. I stomped him into the ground, despite his offense taking advantage of several skills mine didn't, though we were using basically the same curing system. He then rolled up on me as Emir, using the exact same offense, and blew me away. It wasn't even close, because his bleed+hp pressure+aff pressure+hinder was equal to mine, so the better offense clearly won. Before, his better offense couldn't do anything to mine simply because 7% is a Big Deal in Aetolian combat. It's yuge.

    Fighting as any EQ class with no crown is the exact same (hp pressure/mp pressure/balance used/aff rate/hinder/etc.etc.etc.) as fighting as a BAL class at neutral balance. Nobody fights as a BAL class at neutral balance, and crown makes 'neutral' balance for EQ at +1 EQ. 7% is a MASSIVE difference, especially since EQ classes tend to have longer attack times than the fast-swinging aff classes I purposefully picked to show how big a deal that time makes - mages attack slower than that, so 7% of a bigger number is a bigger slow-down.

    Even if all the other factors make it 'too hard' to get a gauge for what's fair and what isn't, imagine fighting as shaman vs shaman. Or mage vs mage. In a mirror match, 7% wins every time so long as they're even in the same neighborhood of skills. You cannot balance that either, because if you make the lower speed person 'balanced', then the faster one is now broken compared to other stuff. Nerf the class so the faster is fair, now the lower speed struggles to kill. I did all this stuff on the first page to prove this point, and I have provided a concrete test result after my math crunching - it's your turn. Can you beat people you usually beat as shaman without crown? Like, try @Fezzix or @Trikal or @Emir if his internet ever comes back, then take off crown and try again. You can feel the difference, and it is beyond significant.
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "I'll still never forget the first time I saw Toz throwing hammers."
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "I freaked out and thought they had somehow managed to pull me into them."
    (Oasis): Azzello says, "So I tumbled away from my team and into theirs."


  • KalakKalak Member Posts: 151 ✭✭✭
    Right now I am at that point where I should decide whether to get a Crown or not. And personally it is not a pleasant choice where I could definitely use that amount of credits elsewhere. Maybe I will wait out for this controversy to get settled.

    The earlier suggestion of allowing it not to stack with Enhancement and providing 7% speed-buff for eq across the board would be a good course of action. So again you are getting the benefit of speed as a Crown Owner but now without sacrificing an Enhancement slot and not losing 6% health/mana. Still a good deal and everyone would be satisfied more or less regarding attack speeds.
    Fezzix
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