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Some questions from an other-IRE player.
I wasn't sure whether to put this in newbie or here, but it seemed a little more in-depth than the typical newbie section thread, so I figured I'd try here! Can be moved if it's the wrong section.
Hello! I've played most of the IRE games, and have spent most of my time over in Achaea. I decided to try Aetolia out because it's supposed to be much more RP focused, but I have a few questions I had trouble finding answers to.
1) Is Aetolia much more RP focused than Achaea, or the other IRE games? I read some comments about how OOC clans and webs (whatever those are) are where a lot of the interaction happens, and in that case I'd just be in the same boat as in Achaea, really, except without an established character.
2) Is there a way to be a Teradrim that's actually alive? I realize that's kind of the opposite of what the guild's motto is, but I figured it was worth asking as slim a chance as it is. Teradrim is one of my absolute favorite flavor in a class I've seen in years, but I have a mild aversion to playing characters that aren't living in games and Bloodloch isn't exactly my cup of tea. I wouldn't, of course, expect to play a light-aligned Teradrim, just maybe a bit of a flunky that can't commit or something!
3) Barring Teradrim, the only other class that immediately catches my attention is Shapeshifter. However, I have a few concerns with it. First, it doesn't count at all for multiclassing, even if I put actual lessons to it, does it? So if I tri-trans it, I still can't pick up a second class the easy way, and would have to join a guild to do it rather than being an apprentice or the like? Secondly, I've read it has absolutely terrible defenses, and I always play squishy classes so it'd be nice to play something tanky for once. How squishy are they? Also, finding a pack seems like something more complicated than joining a guild, so is it a bad idea to be a shapeshifter primary without an established network first?
4) I love serpent in Achaea, so I've been eyeing Syssin tentatively too. But how different is Syssin from serpent, really? I'd prefer if they weren't 100% identical (or even 90%). Is it here or Imperian where you can kidnap people into phase, for instance? I completely forgot, but that would be a cool difference as an example.
5) If not one of those three classes, what classes would you guys recommend that are completely unlike anything in Achaea/the other IRE games? Indorani/Cabalists don't seem very different from old occultist, Sentaari I'd assume are the same as monks, Ascendril I assume are identical to old mages in Achaea, not sure how Templars/Luminaries are compared to Paladin/Priest. Shaman looked interesting too, but I'm hesitant to try an affliction based class since I'm not a fan of static affliction curing order. I'd want to try a bit of PK, at least, but it's not going to be my focus most likely since I already do that in the other games.
6) How bad is the recent bashing gold nerf going to affect new characters? I understand it is recent, and being worked on, but am I going to be unworkably behind the 'old rich' so to speak meanwhile?
7) What is the balance of power in the game right now, roughly, and how static is that? Are shadow/light relatively even? Which cities are biggest and most likely to find me interaction?
Hello! I've played most of the IRE games, and have spent most of my time over in Achaea. I decided to try Aetolia out because it's supposed to be much more RP focused, but I have a few questions I had trouble finding answers to.
1) Is Aetolia much more RP focused than Achaea, or the other IRE games? I read some comments about how OOC clans and webs (whatever those are) are where a lot of the interaction happens, and in that case I'd just be in the same boat as in Achaea, really, except without an established character.
2) Is there a way to be a Teradrim that's actually alive? I realize that's kind of the opposite of what the guild's motto is, but I figured it was worth asking as slim a chance as it is. Teradrim is one of my absolute favorite flavor in a class I've seen in years, but I have a mild aversion to playing characters that aren't living in games and Bloodloch isn't exactly my cup of tea. I wouldn't, of course, expect to play a light-aligned Teradrim, just maybe a bit of a flunky that can't commit or something!
3) Barring Teradrim, the only other class that immediately catches my attention is Shapeshifter. However, I have a few concerns with it. First, it doesn't count at all for multiclassing, even if I put actual lessons to it, does it? So if I tri-trans it, I still can't pick up a second class the easy way, and would have to join a guild to do it rather than being an apprentice or the like? Secondly, I've read it has absolutely terrible defenses, and I always play squishy classes so it'd be nice to play something tanky for once. How squishy are they? Also, finding a pack seems like something more complicated than joining a guild, so is it a bad idea to be a shapeshifter primary without an established network first?
4) I love serpent in Achaea, so I've been eyeing Syssin tentatively too. But how different is Syssin from serpent, really? I'd prefer if they weren't 100% identical (or even 90%). Is it here or Imperian where you can kidnap people into phase, for instance? I completely forgot, but that would be a cool difference as an example.
5) If not one of those three classes, what classes would you guys recommend that are completely unlike anything in Achaea/the other IRE games? Indorani/Cabalists don't seem very different from old occultist, Sentaari I'd assume are the same as monks, Ascendril I assume are identical to old mages in Achaea, not sure how Templars/Luminaries are compared to Paladin/Priest. Shaman looked interesting too, but I'm hesitant to try an affliction based class since I'm not a fan of static affliction curing order. I'd want to try a bit of PK, at least, but it's not going to be my focus most likely since I already do that in the other games.
6) How bad is the recent bashing gold nerf going to affect new characters? I understand it is recent, and being worked on, but am I going to be unworkably behind the 'old rich' so to speak meanwhile?
7) What is the balance of power in the game right now, roughly, and how static is that? Are shadow/light relatively even? Which cities are biggest and most likely to find me interaction?
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You CAN be a living Teradrim. I did it, I'd know. There's no mechanical limiter on you being a living Teradrim, but I wouldn't expect the guilded Teradrim to be very thrilled about it. Monk is monk is monk. Buy some str buy knuckles auto bash ppl to death.
I remember, involve me and I
learn.
-Benjamin Franklin
For the living Teradrim, if it's mechanically doable, how likely is the guild to allow it? How did you manage it?
You'd have to ask someone else whether the changes achieved the intended goal though. I've been away from here for a long time.
Shapeshifter is less squishy than people say, especially in pvp.
For roleplay environment and ooc clans (webs are just party chat, btw)
There are ooc clans, including official ooc clans linked to each city, usually under the purpose of discussing combat, and/or organising combat. And of course they aren't always on topic.
In a way though, this means that the in-role channels (org channels, says and tells) are strictly always in role. There are some amazing RPers in Aetolia, and the way people use the expanded emote system is really nice. Left to my own devices, my RP mostly ends up just being me staying in role, and occasionally stirring up trouble for fun. When others start up with the beautiful emotes though, it encourages me (and I think others) to step up the game a bit.
I think the shadow side of the game is consistently bigger and stronger, given that our dark classes are a draw for many players. I'm less familiar with Bloodloch, but Spinesreach has consistently active roleplay. As someone who plays on the spirit side of the game, though, I feel obligated to say that we have our fair share of strong combatants and can certainly hold our own; I can't speak for Duiran, but Enorian has a significant number of active roleplayers who will quickly engage, also.
"The smell of dusty fur, sweet smoke, waiting and patience, a thing that time cannot kill. The moth that candles won't burn."
The replies are being pretty helpful so far, thanks guys!
Templar is DWC knight. It's basically exactly the same, except retribution instead of damnation for an instant kill and DSB isn't really a thing. Heck, you can even do that dumb Runie mana drain thing if you want. Static cure orders means that aff stacking and locking is a lot more reliable but also means that's what we balance around so it won't be super duper easy too (but not because you don't know what affs they have, but because of hinder/more active|passive curing).
Luminary vs. Priest -
Lumies are like more flexibly offensive priests that don't have Healing to be absolutely immune to affs. Their mana damage output is probably a bit less too.
Syssin vs. Serpent -
@Ishin's pretty wrong here. I've read some more up to date Serpent logs. They're p much exactly the same as Syssin, except you can't illusion mid-combat. Sleights don't have anywhere the sort of tactical versatility, sorry, and are almost entirely just compliments to your dstabs, same as your illusions (fire them off, and hope they do something). Your Hypnosis is also stronger and you can suggest and stab at the same time. But, you pretty much have all the same toys, right down to a pinshot analogue (backstab). Dstab, suggest, snap, lock, fail, repeat until you succeed. Oh, and you have voidfist.
Monk vs. Monk -
The same but not really. Pre-restoration makes limb classes way diff. from the prep and wombo of Achaea, along with a ton of other stuff (parry when prone). It becomes a game of out-guessing parry and gaining salve advantage by pushing out more limb damage than they cure. No mind scythe (sry). Kai choke and mind crush way nerfed.
Ascendril vs. Mage -
Noooo. Not at all. Vibes, yes. Everything else, no. They're basically an affliction class at the moment. You have something like destabilize in current mage in the form of tones which you can use for free on cooldowns and that combos with a damage/bleed dealing one aff attack.
Shaman vs. ??? -
Uhhhh. I'm struggling for a comparison here, but I can't really think of one. It's a lot of hidden aff spam. Lots of loki. Lots of hidden affs. You're aiming for a specific set of 3-4 affs that let you build up a damage spike and then you use it.
Shapeshifters -
Werebears aren't squishy, everybody else is pretty squishy. You don't really have a problem about squishiness if you play Shadow, since Spirit classes don't put out the same sort of raw physical damage pressure that Shadow classes do (barring whomever has Tekura). If you play Spirit, play a werebear or else you're going to feel the pain since the bulk of Shadow classes put out large amounts of physical damage. I don't understand your concern regarding multiclass, so I won't comment on it.
Teradrim -
You can be a living Teradrim. You shouldn't be a rogue though. You give people PK cause if you involve yourself in ylem-based conflict as a rogue, and the city ylem perks are really really good.
RP/OOC -
Shadow traditionally has more of an OOC vibe going on. They have a giant web set up that everybody's on and shoots the breeze and stuff. Spirit is more fractured.
Power balance -
Bloodloch is like Mhaldor. All the artifacted PK whores and the edgy, 'bad guys' go there. You can imagine what that means. Spinesreach is like... IDK, Ashtan. Duiran is an old people's retirement home. I guess you could also compare them to Cyrene. You go to Duiran when you don't want to get bothered. Mostly. Enorian is Targossas.
Shadow players are usually more laid back. Spirit players are usually more tightly wound.
Most of the artifacts are in shadow right now, specifically Bloodloch. Shadow will frequently deploy people with more artifacts individually than the entire Spirit side in a fight. Shadow has more mid-tier combatants than Spirit does (who have almost none). Depending on the time of day, one side usually sees more numbers than the other side, and the quality of fighters will vary. Sometimes Shadow has 3 people and Spirit >10+, and sometimes it's more even, in numbers if not in sheer damage output potential.
I couldn't tell you where you'd find the most interaction. I'm pretty out of touch with that.
Priests in Achaea are actually offensive powerhouses right now with afflictions, so I'm not sure if you mean luminaries are even more offensive than that, or more offensive than old priest.
For what it's worth, affliction illusions in Achaea should in theory do nothing since serverside curing ignores it. Of course, some people are still on older systems, but I prefer to not consider them something for getting ahead of salve balance. Achaean serpents stab well under two seconds and have a lot of options other than locks, though, so that might be pretty different from here?
What's pre-restoration refering to? Just applying resto before you expect a limb break and expecting it goes through when it breaks? Or is it something completely different that's not in Achaea?
My concern regarding multiclass was that from reading the help files, if I'm duo-trans or 3 virtuoso or whatever it is, I can just pick up a second class without going through apprenticeship/a guild, right? Do shapeshifters count for this, since they're a special case? I know you c an pick them up whenever, but can you go the other way, from shapeshifter into instant other class?
Wasn't planning to be a rogue Teradrim, I was hoping for an option like being a Spinesreach Teradrim or something. Still unclear on how difficult it'd be, though, or what the requirements would be, I don't really get the Aetolia class system very much.
Shame about Duiran, I was hoping they wouldn't be identical to Eleusis.
If it makes it different, it's only that Syssin have LESS options than serpents, since you don't have illusions (sleights are just curing balance knocks) and your non-lock routes aren't as strong because of static curing and way more prevalent passive/active cures. Sunlight_allergy kill isn't as viable for example, since it's a 1 minute timer and it's always the aff cured on the ginseng cure tree behind haemophilia. It's pretty much lock or bust, though they do that really really well.
You can apply to cure limb damage whenever, not just when a limb breaks, in Aetolia. Each limb class has ways of getting around or otherwise taking advantage of this. Broadly, it's either: A ) take advantage of the resto window to apply mending affs you can capitalize off of, or B ) you poop out so much limb damage at once that you can break anyways even through pre-restore. This means though you can't like, do the Achaea thing of prep run prep run prep run prep run prep run prep finished unleash hell.
I wouldn't know about the multi-class thing. Sorry! Maybe a celeni can chime in.
That's fine. No one really cares much. You can always just go schmooze up some random person who doesn't care about RP if you're okay with that kind of thing on your conscience.
I compared them to Cyrene, not Eleusis.
Limb damage seems interesting here, makes me want to try one of those classes.
I wouldn't want to just ignore the RP of living Teradrim entirely, to be honest! If it's not a big deal, that's cool, but I figured there'd be a stigma or something. If not, well, that makes it easier I suppose.
I know you compared them to Cyrene, but Eleusis is sadly a lot like Cyrene for a large part of its population. If Duiran is even more directly just Cyrene, that's a shame. I had it in my head all the factions were pretty combative in Aetolia for some reason.
Here's the problem: the scripting barrier for Aetolian combat is very high, higher than in Achaea by a fair margin. Because of perfect tracking, at the very minimum if you play an aff class (most of them), you need to semi-automate your aff selection (press an alias, and it decides what you aff with -- monitored full auto is also possible. 100% full auto will get you killed). Certain mechanics on the defensive end of things means that you'll generally need some client side scripts to deal with priority changes and special cases (Adder Tarot pulling, hidden affliction check/heuristics, Feather fetish handling, parry and pre-restoration modes).
Added together, this means that it's difficult for the average player to get involved in Aetolian PK. The basic free system we have lying around will get your through group combat mostly, but won't work against most classes 1v1. This leads into not as many people being involved in PK. This further leads into not as many people who are interested in picking fights because they don't have the confidence that they'll be able to hold their own.
This is more acutely noticeable on the spirit side of things than the shadow side of things, but it affects both sides. Shadow wants to go pick fights but they have no one to pick fights with so they get bored and idle bash or whatever. Spirit gets picked on and whines but can't muster up the motivation to master PK because not many people want to learn a scripting language alongside the combat system itself (which is pretty dense, if you're not a PK vet already).
==
Limb damage is really the last bastion of thoughtful, old-style PK where you exploited timing windows and abused stupid little tricks to pull out wins, like timing your hits on restoration for old rapier speed knights and stuff like that. It's a thinking man's PK, since you /usually/ can't just slam one alias and win -- you need to gauge what their parry/pre-restore strategy looks like by exploiting it appropriately.
Which in turn means your scripts to take advantage of that information and choose the perfect attacks, also need to be perfect, and some classes are quite tricky to script for.
Choosing a class that has viable limb damage options (be it a dedicated limb damage class like monk/shapeshifter, or a hybrid such as the knight classes) is a good idea if you are not confident with your scripting ability (though tracking the target and choosing good attacks is still important).
Zealot - exclusively Tekura
Luminary - Not dedicated limb class. Uses limb damage to set up psuedo-prones for high damage attack.
Carnifex - Not dedicated limb class. Has a super powerful move that can be used on psuedo-prone to build towards salve based insta kill. Limb damage creates those prones.
Monk - Tekura + Kaido, permitting exploitation of resto windows
Templar - Not dedicated limb class. DWB or 2hb limb damage forces resto windows to push mending affs that lead to instakill. Can also use to set up super DSBs.
Teradrim - limb damage open up opportunities for grinding damage (impale, passives), or abuse resto windows to mask mending cures affs that lead to instakill
Shapeshifter - mending breaks can be upgraded instantly into resto breaks, limb damage forces resto to make mending breaks stick long enough for resto
You'll notice that though the script burden is less, you'll STILL need, at minimum, some way of tracking your opponent's limb damage and afflictions, particularly for the classes that use mending affs in conjunction with their limb damage.
Also, because Shapeshifter doesn't count towards your class limit, you don't need to trans it to get a new class. It isn't even considered when multiclassing comes into play.
For example, I have duo-trans/tri-trans for every shadow class, I'm full inept in shapeshifter. Still was able to pick up Cabalist (and Shapeshifter was the 4th? class I picked up.)
Classes that are mostly or entirely unique: Carnifex[*], Praenomen, Teradrim, Cabalist, Shaman, Templar[*], Sentinel[*], Lycan
- classes marked with asterisk are somewhat similar to knights (dual-venom attack + various extras), but have different extras
Classes that are somewhat unique (some things similar, some not): Ascendril, Sciomancer, Luminary, Zealot, Indorani
Classes that are mostly (though not entirely) the same: Syssin, Monk
- Syssin are basically achaean serpents without illusions, they main difference is that we have static curing orders here.
- Monks are still monks with a couple extra stances, the difference is that we have pre-restoration (you can apply restoration whenever and it'll cure any limb damage that the limb currently has).
- Indorani are essentially occultists before Occultism - they still have necromancy here
Strongly recommend that you take your time and talk to people in game too. The people who are nice enough to bother to respond on forums may not necessarily represent the silent majority.
That leaves Shapeshifter, apparently, how's their bashing at least? I know someone said they're not that squishy in PvP, but they're still very squishy bashing, right?
You'll have to ask Irruel why he says shapeshifters are less squishy in pvp. He could mean that they have strong hindering in 1v1, which provides them some survivability. I think they're squishy in team fights. I think if anything, they might be less squishy in pve, since they can use healing howls. That said, my take is that they are squishier than most classes, regardless.
I assume he means they have good hindering, yes. Teradrim is extremely tanky compared to most classes, right?|
Shapeshifters have no armour, but receive boost to their blunt/cutting audit from Thickhide, of about 20%. The final result, however, tends to be lower than armour wearing classes from what I gather.
Depending on your animal of choice (Bear, Wolf, Croc, Boar) you'll also get another defensive bonus, and a miscellaneous bonus. Wolves get Cornering (defensive) which boosts their chance to dodge by about 3% and stealth which hides their entrance/exit from rooms. Bears receive Bracing (defensive) which, I'm fairly certain, further increase their physical audit, and Resting which helps boost endurance recovery. Crocs get scales which is a 5% boost to magic, fire and electric resistance, and Submerge which will hide, shroud and stealth them in watery locations. And Boars receive Vibrance, which boosts healing received from health/analeptic by 5% (I'm not sure if this stacks with artifact or not) and Stampede which increases movement speed of you and your allies.
As you go along Shapeshifters also become able to Vocalize healing effects, and echo them back onto themselves, giving a periodic restoration of health/mana/willpower/endurance or any combination of three.
So, long story short, Shapeshifters CAN be squishy, yes. But, they also are able to boost their strength (albeit at a hunger cost) for more damage, their attack speed is fairly quick, and have several other defenses which can be handy depending on where/what you're bashing.
tl;dr - Squishy, perhaps. But certainly not to the point of being incapable of bashing.
-Edit: As an aside, if you intend to focus on Shapeshifter as your main class, you might run into trouble later on down the road if you intend to multiclass. My understanding is that Shapeshifter may as well not exist for the purposes of Multiclassing. It doesn't count as either a class against your final total, or as one that you've mastered to be able to do so. Not trying to dissuade you from the class, just letting you know it might come up.
Cute-Kelli by @Sessizlik.
Either way, it is pricey. Unless they lowered the cost over the last 3 months.
I will say that between all the classes that I'd consider on the weak end of bashing, Shapeshifter isn't terrible. Their poor physical audit is compensated by being able to howl regens and such.
I believe bracing is 10% cutt/blunt defences, not miniskills or armor categories.
Oh, and if you want both of those classes, but can't get a grip of Teradrim, Shapeshifter is a perfectly valid option that you can use as a starting point to expand on.
it's 100. 200 etc when you get a new class slot if you already used your one free class slot game gives you
The flipside to shape-shifting squishiness is that they have relatively high dps when it comes to bashing, especially without artifacts (unless this has changed, but I don't think so).
PVP wise, I'd strongly recommend Teradrim instead of Shapeshifter. The latter still has some lingering issues that make it hard to perform at top tier (though this shouldn't be an issue for 98pct of the fights you get into - if you are into casual PVP, Shapeshifter is just fine).
In team fights quietus and quietus reprieve, if used liberally, encourage the other team to target you later. Pretty sure that hasn't changed. I've never seen anyone but myself use the ability though. Quietus is a feign death ability, FYI.
Neckdrag is a surprisingly helpful defensive ability too. You can contribute to your team by neckdragging specific enemies out of the room. This upsets the opposition and also removes you from the damage momentarily.
Having said all that, despite shapeshifter having been one of my favourite all time classes IRE-wide, I think Teradrim is much more fun these days.