IC / OOC

Claire · February 2013

Let's talk about some paradoxes for a moment- or more appropriately let's talk about some inequities. As a society we have seen a large number of disenfranchised beings. Women, homosexuals, lesbians, 'witches', people of any ethnic origin not white Angelo Saxon, anyone who was different in any way has been abused, not just personally by individuals but by society as a whole. Being paid less for doing the same work, not being able to use the same restrooms, being forced to the back of the bus, not being allowed to vote- or buy property or- well you get the picture.

It is a shameful fact that the history of the United States of America, and many other countries, is riddled with these incidence of prejudice and hate. Now why, you ask, would I possibly put something like this on the forums of an online roleplaying game? Because although this is a roleplaying game and yes, everyone does have a different place where they draw the line between IC / OOC, there is still some personal responsibility that should be present.

Calling a woman a whore, or a cunt in shouts and or tells? Not cool. Especially if the character is not one that is a whore. We all know what the definition of a whore is. Someone who sells themselves for money- traditionally a person who sold their own body (i.e. sexual favors for money)- alternatively someone who is indiscriminate in their choice of lovers. The sticky part of this is that the double standard still exists. If a man is promiscuous he's a 'pimp' and he brags about his conquests and is patted on the back and praised- if a woman does the same she is labeled a slut and a whore and looked down upon.

When those words are applied to women in the context of “You annoy me and piss me off so I am going to call you a whore even though your character doesn't mudsex” it rings of the shameful misogyny that tarnished so much of our collective history no matter where our ancestors hail from. It is abusive and hurtful and goes over the top. If a female character in this game pisses you off call them a bitch, call them a pain in the ass, but if the character -IS NOT- a whore don't for pities sake call them a whore.

Eleanor · February 2013

Roleplay characters can be misogynistic too.

Claire · February 2013

That they can, but when it is used so excessively and blindly that it completely looses all IC meaning beyond "Hey you piss me off and you happen to be female" that's just going to far.

Luna · February 2013

Eleanor said:

Roleplay characters can be misogynistic too.

Roleplay characters can also be abusive antisocial twats. It's no excuse for harassment, sexual or otherwise.

Alastair · February 2013

Any time you allow a word or phrase this sort of control over you, you are losing the fight you are posting about.

Just a thought.

E: Not that I'm condoning any sort of derogatory term usage, but this is something that anyone learns pretty quickly when the term in question is applicable to them.

Illikaal · February 2013

I'm...not seeing the argument here.

Aetolia is a roleplaying game in which you create a character to have whatever attitude, morales, and values that you want. You are 'playing' the ROLE of your CHARACTER. If I make a character that's a 5'2" homosexual who enjoys cutting himself, does that mean that I myself behave in the same manner? Absolutely not. If a woman called my character a bastard, the definition of which A person born of parents not married to each other, then does that make him so? Nope. Should that offend -me- as a player? That varies from player to player. Calling a woman a whore IG, or OOC for that matter doesn't make her so simply because someone said it. Sticks and stones and all that. We live in a world in which people toss the insults out such as that to be exactly so. Insults. Does it make them true? Nope.

All i'm seeing is someone getting offended by taking the actions of someone's character and taking them to an OOC level. If you get offended by the actions of said players, then we have an administration that you can talk to that will help you with your problem. However, if everyone in this game posted about a particular insult that was said to them, we'd be seeing several threads titled: "I"m not the end of a rectum." "I'm not a female dog." "My parents were married when they conceived me." "I'm not a man's sex organ that was somehow combined with a waffle."

No player should take the actions of any character to an OOC medium, or even respond to them OOC at all, unless the player in question specifies otherwise, which is stupid because that'd be metagaming. End of story.

Edit: I didn't say that to say that the term is 'okay' to say. The main point is that you shouldn't be taking a character's actions/feelings OOC, because they may not reflect the player's attitude at all.

Lin · February 2013

Ooh boy. If words are going to hurt you you might wanna back out of Aetolia.

We have comfort women, by the way.

Daingean · February 2013

I'm a universally accepting person, irl.

I do my best to leave my own prejudice inside my head where it belongs, and allow myself to be open to the ideas and feelings of others when related to their life. That means that if someone makes their living as a comfort woman, or some guy is in charge of clerical oversight of said individuals and possesses a selection of zoot suits, well.. that's not my business, and I leave them be.

Daingean is unabashedly racist. He's not sexist, as far as I know, but he's racist without even the slightest attempt to hide it. He's also not above demeaning someone based on their choices - whores, duiranites, scantily clad men and women all over, anyone with 'emerald' in their description, anyone he believes to be wrong [read, anyone who doesn't agree with him] and a whole bunch of other things.

This is a role playing game. I often make concessions for the second part of that phrase - game. I do things and allow Dain to do things that he probably shouldn't do, on the understanding that this is a game, and people's first interest is having fun. I've given people zealot class that Dain maybe wouldn't have [Hi, Fenrir] have, and I've kept his mouth closed when he'd rather retort because I sense that it's going to 'that' place where it becomes less fun and more harmful. That does not mean that I feel various avenues of characterization are invalid because I personally abstain.

I think you've got to get your lines in place. Also, don't be afraid to reach out to people on an ooc level when they're harming your direct experience - this means, if they call -your- character a name or slur that you feel harmful. Not if they do it to mine. That's for me to deal with - most people in Aetolia are super understanding and totally willing to work with you, the player. I've had to tell a lot of people that I don't mudsex oocly, despite the fact that Dain might be in the right frame of mind to carry a relationship to that level, and I've never had anyone get mad at me for it. I have a feeling it'd work just as well to get them to pull back the speech patterns of the character interacting with yours.

Arbre · February 2013

Daingean said:

Daingean is unabashedly racist. He's not sexist, as far as I know, but he's racist without even the slightest attempt to hide it. He's also not above demeaning someone based on their choices - whores, duiranites, scantily clad men and women all over, anyone with 'emerald' in their description, anyone he believes to be wrong [read, anyone who doesn't agree with him] and a whole bunch of other things.

Holy crap, you just completely described Arbre. I need to go find an excuse to RP with you now.

Daingean said:
This is a role playing game. I often make concessions for the second part of that phrase - game. I do things and allow Dain to do things that he probably shouldn't do, on the understanding that this is a game, and people's first interest is having fun. I've given people zealot class that Dain maybe wouldn't have [Hi, Fenrir] have, and I've kept his mouth closed when he'd rather retort because I sense that it's going to 'that' place where it becomes less fun and more harmful. That does not mean that I feel various avenues of characterization are invalid because I personally abstain.

I think you've got to get your lines in place. Also, don't be afraid to reach out to people on an ooc level when they're harming your direct experience - this means, if they call -your- character a name or slur that you feel harmful. Not if they do it to mine. That's for me to deal with - most people in Aetolia are super understanding and totally willing to work with you, the player. I've had to tell a lot of people that I don't mudsex oocly, despite the fact that Dain might be in the right frame of mind to carry a relationship to that level, and I've never had anyone get mad at me for it. I have a feeling it'd work just as well to get them to pull back the speech patterns of the character interacting with yours.

I always say that making the game fun (for you or others) is way more important than staying in character. I've asked people to back off before, and if someone asked me to back off, I would.

Claire · February 2013

I have watched a number of aetolians do exactly what you and Dain just described- and you guys are awesome! It's the few rotten apples that I was talking about in this post. The ones that take something and beat it like a dead horse until the player they are doing it to leaves, and that is not cool, nor is it okay, and no I am not talking about anyone doing that to any of my characters. FYI Claire's my second endgame char but this new forums confuddled me and I couldn't get signed in with my other login ect. My other char is Brynn.

Maybe you guys (Arbre and Dain and the other awesome folks like you) have me spoiled and my expectations are too high, who knows? I just felt like something needed to be said to make us all -think- about where we draw the line and where others draw the line and respecting each other. Not that I'm lilly white in that category myself. There are a handful of people that I have said some horrible things to and about out of sheer frustration. But not month after month after month, repeatedly. Loosing your temper sometimes happens, but when you allow it to continue to the extent I'm talking about maybe some therapy would be a good idea.

Illikaal · February 2013

Claire said:
That they can, but when it is used so excessively and blindly that it completely looses all IC meaning beyond "Hey you piss me off and you happen to be female" that's just going to far.

Again, using that kind of logic indicates taking IC thoughts and feelings of a character and assuming they are motives of the player. If there were a black character in Aetolia, and good ole Daingean goes "Get out of Enorian cause you're black and im racist." Does that make Daingean a racist? Hell yeah. Does that make his PLAYER racist? It doesn't, at all. Despite the fact that his player may or may not be indeed racist, or particularly "hateful" towards one person or group does not give anyone the right to make baseless accusations about the player of a character.

If I myself were as violent as Illidan is for example, or enjoyed causing people harm over the most petty of incidents, I'd have been in prison a long time ago.

Tza · February 2013

Personally, if I insult someone ingame I always try to make it clear that I'm meaning the character and not the player. Like for example using the terms "bloodsucker" or "fangface" for a vampire. Or as a vampire making snide comments about the inferiority of the other due to being alive. I can't imagine how either of that could be taken personally irl.

However, there will always be people who can't properly separate between their characters and themselves. It just happens. And it happens in every online game, RP or no. (And usually you know very well if they just tried to insult your character or -you- the player.) From my experience I can tell you one thing: It's your choice whom you interact with.

Mastema · February 2013

Glad my generation got over this whole gender thing. As for insults from people, well its just that and you can let it get you down or laugh it off. I know I mostly just sigh at the stupid misandric or misogynistic comments of others. After all if that is how they were raised then good luck to them.

Ezrax · February 2013

Someone told me recently that she had quit playing because people were calling her a whore and a slut as OOC insults to her. She's a pretty tough girl, but got wore out from the constant slander and hate towards her for being a character.

I told her to issue them, but she's jaded to the point where she's of the opinion the admins don't care enough to act. What's everyone's thoughts on this (particularly the authorities)?

Tza · February 2013

Ezrax said:

Someone told me recently that she had quit playing because people were calling her a whore and a slut as OOC insults to her. She's a pretty tough girl, but got wore out from the constant slander and hate towards her for being a character.

I told her to issue them, but she's jaded to the point where she's of the opinion the admins don't care enough to act. What's everyone's thoughts on this (particularly the authorities)?

I can tell you of a personal experience of mine concerning the whole "the admin don't do shit" thing. This all happened years ago in another IRE (tl;dr at the bottom):

There was one player who was a total pk-whore. Not the good kind of whore either. He went after newbies, he went after the same people again and again and again. He slandered people (mostly in tells, directly), especially when he happened to lose to them in pk (he was good at the time so it didn't happen often though). He slandered them behind their backs on clans to everyone he knew (he made sure to keep this behaviour off city- and guildtells though). The best part? He was high ranked in city, guild and order. ICly you couldn't do anything against him, -no one- would (dare) do anything against him either or icly support you if you tried.

It was always obvious this wasn't RP either. None of it. He made it clear from the beginning that he never RP'd at all (he even stated so publicly on the forums). If you sent him a tell (in game, in character) and asked him for something he would answer "Not today. I might have time on Wednesday or Sunday.".

That he would call you a 'slut' and a 'whore' if he didn't like you was the least of it. A friend of mine who happened to be Jewish he told he 'should get blown up by Hezbollah'. Everyone knew about this, no one did anything, including the Administration.

So one day I happened to rant to an Admin about it, asking why the hell nothing was done. The guy was actively driving people away from playing the game. That couldn't be in the interest of the game or the Administration. His reply? They couldn't do anything because apparently no one had ever issued the guy about it. Not. a. single. issue. At which point he encouraged me to finally issue this guy.

Long story short: Eventually I did issue him. His reaction was immediate and my character suffered for my ooc decision to issue. Great isn't it? Anyhow. He ended up with a permanent IP ban. (It was later, quite a bit later, reduced to 6 months on appeal or something. However, he never got that strong icly anymore and to my knowledge he never (?) went back to active play.).

TL;DR Version: How do you expect anything to happen if you NEVER tell anyone? Especially the administration? Try to talk to the person. If that fails (and there are people where it will definitely fail), then issue them. Collect logs and issue for harassment. Don't ever let such a twit drive you out of a game.

In all my years of playing IRE games, this was the only case where I have ever seriously issued another player. Looking back, I don't understand anymore why it took me that long.

Illikaal · February 2013

If things are aimed directly and blatantly at a player as far as insults go, then they can take it up with the administration. Also the whole thing about a woman being called a whore and men being called pimps is a double standard. Guys get insulted as much as girls do, but guys and girls alike should brush the insults off and move on. Women deserve to be treated equally, and don't take this the wrong way because I mean it in the least sexist way I possibly can, but sometimes it really feels like some women enjoy being victimized, or playing a victim, or something. Of course it varies from person to person, but im sure many guys and girls in Aetolia have been insulted, yet didn't quit the game because someone called them a name. Men and women alike should have tougher skin.

Edit: In other words, this thread feels like it's a lot less about "Someone got insulted, lets try to respect each other more." and more like, "A woman got disrespected, and it's not okay BECAUSE it's a woman." It SHOULD be the former, because feeling bad simply because it's a woman is in fact a double standard. What if a guy got upset and made a post because someone called him an a**hole or a d-bag? Would we still be having this conversation? But again, this conversation is being had is allegedly about what went on between characters in the game. At the end of the day, the beef about who got insulted, whether it was a man or woman tossing whatever insults back and forth between characters should stay in the game.

Konnorn · February 2013

The thing is, there are plenty of players in Aetolia that just don't care if they insult someone or put someone down. I have tried to solve issues with some people both icly and oocly. The responses icly has been "I don't want to talk to you, leave me alone or die." The responses oocly has been "I don't want to talk to you, leave me alone or I will issue for harassment." (and then ignoring me). I have been called every name in the book by these people, I have felt extremely harassed by them and I have issued about it, but nothing ever comes from it. It's come to the point that I DO believe the admins don't care, because these are well-known players/chars that they are either buddies with or they fear. Simple as that.

I do agree that you have to put up with some insults icly, but never oocly. We are all people here and as a community, we need to respect one another. We don't have to like eachother, just accept and respect as far as possible. Sure, there will always be some people that we won't respect either, but at least make sure you have a reason for it and not just "you are weak and annoying". Seriously, this gaming community scares me to no end when comparing to others and I often find myself lacking hope of seeing mutual respect between players.

Claire · February 2013

Illidan said:

What if a guy got upset and made a post because someone called him an a**hole or a d-bag? Would we still be having this conversation? But again, this conversation is being had is allegedly about what went on between characters in the game. At the end of the day, the beef about who got insulted, whether it was a man or woman tossing whatever insults back and forth between characters should stay in the game.

Absolutely, if it were a man and it had gone beyond IC and into straight up harassment then yes we should definitely be having the same conversation.

Let me also be clear that I am not talking about a one off, someone lost their temper and started ranting ICly / or OOCly or both. What I am talking about is a situation where if the person shows their face in any kind of a PK situation they get ranted at. Repeatedly.

It is also pretty clear when someone is letting things stay ICly and when someone is only claiming "Oh it's just IC! It's just a game! Don't be so sensitive." If it IS just a game, and it IS just IC then it should not ever reach the stage of griefing. Don't hide behind the IC / OOC line when it is clearly being crossed.

Illidan said:

If things are aimed directly and blatantly at a player as far as insults go, then they can take it up with the administration. Also the whole thing about a woman being called a whore and men being called pimps is a double standard. Guys get insulted as much as girls do, but guys and girls alike should brush the insults off and move on. Women deserve to be treated equally, and don't take this the wrong way because I mean it in the least sexist way I possibly can, but sometimes it really feels like they enjoy being victimized, or playing a victim, or something. Of course it varies from person to person, but im sure many guys and girls in Aetolia have been insulted, yet didn't quit the game because someone called them a name. Men and women alike should have tougher skin.

Agreed, completely agree. In this situation though for the insults to be equitable we would have to go back and rewrite history to never have women be subjugated. It would be the same if the insults were being directed at a homosexual, a person of colour, or any of the other groups that have had it rough over the years. Let's say we have someone jewish playing (Hi Kiyo!) and another player starts repeatedly making off color remarks about Nazi ovens. That is NOT OKAY.

So if you have a beef with a female character don't let your insults stray into that black area that no one should tread. Call her a Bi***, call her an a**h**e but don't tailor your insults to attack her gender. That is what is so unacceptable.

Illikaal · February 2013

In that case, I'm not seeing what the difference is between calling a woman a B****, or a W****. They're both derogatory terms for a woman. They're both insults. Why is one so much more effective than the other?

Being a black man (contrary to the african american stereotype) i don't care if you're white, black, brown, puerto rican, or asian. The word that oddly happens to be an anagram for ginger, despite it meaning 'ignorant' is commonly used as a racial slur towards african american people. A surprising amount of black people will say "Lol it's okay to say it because we're black." What sense does that make? Regardless of who's mouth it's coming out of, the word still has the same meaning. It's intended to be an insult and is used as such.

So -why- is it that you're implying that it's okay to call a woman a bitch rather than a w**** when they're both intended to be demeaning to a female?

Claire · February 2013

In that paradigm what is the difference between calling a black person a Bas**rd versus calling them the N word?

I am talking about a character that has never exhibited behaviour that is 'whorish' by the traditional definition of the word. Calling her a whore rather than any of the myriad other words we have at our disposal is attacking her GENDER not her behaviour. Beyond that utilizing that word in that manner is taking advantage of the years of female enslavement in a patriarchal society and attacking WOMEN. Just like using the N word is taking advantage of the connotations that word has been imbued with over the decades of slavery that black Americans suffered.

Illidan said:

In that case, I'm not seeing what the difference is between calling a woman a B****, or a W****. They're both derogatory terms for a woman. They're both insults. Why is one so much more effective than the other?

Being a black man (contrary to the african american stereotype) i don't care if you're white, black, brown, puerto rican, or asian. The word that oddly happens to be an anagram for ginger, despite it meaning 'ignorant' is commonly used as a racial slur towards african american people. A surprising amount of black people will say "Lol it's okay to say it because we're black." What sense does that make? Regardless of who's mouth it's coming out of, the word still has the same meaning. It's intended to be an insult and is used as such.

So -why- is it that you're implying that it's okay to call a woman a bitch rather than a w**** when they're both intended to be demeaning to a female?

Periluna · February 2013

Uhm - I think the second censored word she used was a-hole

Illikaal · February 2013

Claire said:

In that paradigm what is the difference between calling a black person a Bas**rd versus calling them the N word?

They're simply insults of a different nature. One is derived from racial differences, the other is derived from...somewhere. They're both insults, intended to be used negatively towards a person. One word, at least in my case, doesn't have anymore impact than another. I understand that for a large number of people, this is different. They feel that the N bomb is a lot more derogatory than being called a bastard. In my book, no insult is greater than another. Insults are insults. To me, it's like holding a gun to someone and saying, "Do you want to get shot in the left kneecap, or the right?" Regardless of which knee you get shot in, it's going to have some serious impairment on how you walk from that point on.

Saying that it's okay to say "Hey, call someone a bitch instead of a w****" isn't acceptable to me. If you feel that calling them a w**** to insult them is unacceptable, then you should feel the same way about any other insult.

Aldric · February 2013

I've been called plenty of things ICly, but even after playing for 5ish years now, I can't say that I've even one time been insulted by a player in an OOC manner. Worst case I think was when somebody said I was fickle and not really worth talking to, then blocked me, but that's pretty mild. Never anything really in an attacking manner.

In-character? Yeah, definitely. If you're ever in a situation like that where you're uncomfortable, send the person an OOC tell saying, "Hey, I don't really like that, can you not do that around me?" and I'm 99% sure they'll happily oblige.

Lin, Edhain, and Arbre are a few examples that come to mind when it comes to this barrier. If they know you're not somebody who cares, they'll tailor their language around that. They'll be more likely to swear and all that happy nonsense. If, on the other hand, they don't know you, or they know you -are- sensitive to that kinda thing, they'll watch themselves or say other things. I think this is ideal, and is the model most people should use.

@Claire: in regards to the Nazi ovens thing, that's clearly an OOC reference, and if it's being made it's likely to be assumed as such. If it's said OOCly it's harassment, and should be issued over.

Personally, I don't get how you can say, "Oh, it's okay to call my character a B*, but not a whore." That's kind of a shaky line being drawn there. Maybe I've been brought up differently, but I don't know how somebody can have beef with the word 'whore' being used in a game, but have no problems whatsoever about reading a message wherein somebody slices open another's chest, rips their sternum out, then impales them into the ground with it.

Illikaal · February 2013

@Aldric Posted the same thing at the same time.

Claire · February 2013

@ Aldric and Illidan

There is a difference between insulting someone based on their behaviour versus what they are. i.e Black, female, jewish, homosexual, lesbian ect. Because of the anthropological and societal stigmas that are still placed on women calling a woman a whore is a double standard in and of itself. Our reaction to that as a society is negative when it is applied to a woman. Call a man a whore and you get smirks and back slaps "You get 'em boy!". It does not mean the same thing. Nor in this case is it insulting the character's behaviour. it is insulting the characters gender and the players gender.

That is the difference between calling a woman a whore versus calling her a Bi**h.

Veritas · February 2013

Ezrax said:

Someone told me recently that she had quit playing because people were calling her a whore and a slut as OOC insults to her. She's a pretty tough girl, but got wore out from the constant slander and hate towards her for being a character.

I told her to issue them, but she's jaded to the point where she's of the opinion the admins don't care enough to act. What's everyone's thoughts on this (particularly the authorities)?

Without going into great detail, the innocence of the person you are referring to is questionable at best, considering that person's own past. That being said, I did go to great lengths personally to track down Issues of an excess of a year old because the complaint filed through a third party was "The words were used in Issues/Issue Replies and Admin just ignored it." I explained to that third party that over the course of three dozen issues I reviewed by or against this person, the only Issue regarding use of language was one filed AGAINST this person for using inappropriate/homophobic comments in tells, not the other way around.

So while I understand the initial point of this thread, judging it's time of creation with conversations that happened in game at the same time, I believe it is related to the person you are mentioning, and I'll just say that the majority of what this person told the player who filed a complaint on their behalf, was utterly untrue.

There exists within Aetolia two systems to get abusive language and conduct dealt with: The Issue system can and has, and always will be there to be used for the breach of LANGUAGERULES. Also, the IGNORE function can and has, and always will be there to be used to mechanically block unwanted communication. Neither were used in the case you mentioned, Ezrax. While I am not saying that this person was telling 100% false information, this person certainly wasn't bringing it to my attention to have it rectified.

Despite what some players may think of the Issue system and how I approach it and handle Issues, I have and always will take a very firm stance on harassment of PLAYERS. Please don't get that confused with IC actions taken against CHARACTERS, which context and circumstances will always dictate a proper response.

I typically try to respond quickly to Issues or messages that fall under legitimate harassment of a person in the form of language, sexual orientation, or outright sexual harassment. However, I am only a single person and I cannot keep an active track of every conversation and interaction going on at every second of a 24 hour day, every day. If a player, or another God does not bring something to my attention so that I can investigate it, I can't correct problems.

In any case, if any players are being blasted with uncalled for language they should IGNORE that person, file an Issue, and probably message me directly so I can deal with it. Help me, help you.

Angwe · February 2013

Men can be sluts, too. I've been doing it for years.

Edhain · February 2013

Once, I would have said that people should be able to roleplay what they want - a racist, a sexist, whatever - and consider it separate from OOC grief. I would make the example that Billy Joe Bob could say "I'm roleplaying a mean character" and have other people complain because "Billy Joe Bob was mean to me". Well, that is Billy Joe Bob's role. We have "evil" organizations in these games because people are precisely meant to be roleplaying "bad people". Bigotry is just another facet of badness that can be played in a roleplaying game.

However, after a long time observing society and online gaming, I've come to realize that we have a sort of responsibility here. Everything we do in life, as a part of any society, has an impact on that society. The same is true in online, roleplaying societies. If I roleplay a misogynist, and I do it well, it becomes sort of cool. Misogyny becomes cool. You might think it's not like that, but subconsciously that's how it works. We might say, heck no, misogyny is horrible and it's a plague on society and it must be changed at any cost... but in the back of our minds there's the knowledge that some misogynistic character was kind of cool. All that kind of demeans the problem of misogyny. It's like being a "feminist" who makes "women need to be in the kitchen" jokes. Yeah, they're sort of funny in a repetitive meme way. And yeah, you're being ironic. But you're still perpetuating a certain paradigm and it becomes impossible to defeat that paradigm while it's being perpetuated.

This might be hard for gamers to understand because it's hard for gamers to accept. But the fact of the matter is that virtual reality isn't different from reality in terms of psychological and societal "scientific laws" (let's call them).

So when you do bigoted things in the game, just remember that it's a society too, and your actions have a societal impact just as strong as they might in the real world. You can argue if you want, you can ignore this if you want, but the truth is that if you do you're just deceiving yourself in order to justify roleplaying whatever you feel like.

There might be some exceptions, for instance, maybe your character doesn't like Grooks. Grooks don't exist in real life, so what's the real parallel? You've not oppressing any societal faction by perpetuating the idea that it's kind of cool to hate on Grooks. But then again there was that April Fool's event where they subbed the n-word for Grook and somebody was upset. I thought he was kidding around and made fun of him a little at the time, but he was right. It equates an in-game race with a real race (as real as the concept of "race" is, at least) and draws a parallel between in-game racism and real-life racism. This means that when you perpetuate the idea of being racist at all it's basically perpetuating the validity of racism.

In the end, this is part of why I downtoned my own character's homophobia and various racist prejudices and even his rampant sexism. The other reason is just character development towards maturity, but I decided on that because I realized what effects my character's behavior was having on other players.

I'm not saying that everyone roleplaying a bigoted character should immediately stop, or something. I just think these facts should be acknowledged and insulted parties shouldn't be constantly told to 'toughen up' or 'Aetolia's not for you'.

That sort of attitude is like a die-hard Texan (no stereotype intended) chewing his tabbacer and hefting his shotgun and telling those damn Mexicans to get back over the border and he'll call it like it is, they're stereotype this and stereotype that, and he don't want them round his daughter and this is 'murica dangnabbit he's got the freedom of speech to do so and dem slur here better harden up cuz he's got the right to preach the truth and political correctness and multiculturalism is all the rage with the youngsters but it's destroying our fine country.

If you're that guy, then OK, I understand why you think it's fine to exhibit that behavior in Aetolia too. But if you're not, recognize that you're still dealing with a human society even if it is online. At the very most, you could make an effort to show the bigoted facets of your character as flaws-in-progress, and not unique or interesting traits that make your character more three dimensional and cool/real.

Aldric · February 2013

But we're talking about IC here. If somebody drops the N-bomb on somebody, that's OOC and harassment since there's no record of that existing in Aetolia whatsoever. Same with Jew, etc. etc.

But you're judging based on the literal translation associated with a word, rather than it just being a generic insult.

One of your last lines there, "It is insulting to the character's gender and the player's gender."

That's an assumption. Lin, for example, is a female character played by a male player. Are you saying that it's okay to call Lin a whore, since she's not played by a female, or is it still just somebody trying to call the player a whore?

Like many so far has said, there's a barrier between IC and OOC. I'm not trying to sound harsh or anything, but Aetolia's known for having a more gritty, mature audience and environment. What's said to the character is not said to you, the player. If you, as a player, cannot differentiate that, then you may want to reconsider this game.

Again, 'whore' is considered sketchy and offensive, but violent gory messages are perfectly fine? Something just seems off with that to me, but again, we've got different levels of offense thresholds. If somebody pushes the boundary there, ask them OOCly to stop. If they refuse, it's harassment. End of story.

Ezalor · February 2013

It shouldn't be up to the "victim" to grow a tougher skin, it's up to the rest of us to stop being pricks. I absolutely, absolutely hate it when people like Destiny (SC2 streamer) say "well I use the word faggot but I don't mean it as insulting to homosexuals so it's just a word, get over it. I did nothing wrong." What does it cost you to stop using those words? Two seconds of time while you think of a more suitable insult. What does it mean for the target in question? It means they don't have to re-live very real episodes of abuse and bullying associated with those terms. In an ideal word sure these words have no power but it's not an ideal world and you -are- hurting people by using them, it costs you nothing to stop using them.

It'd be great if everyone could purely separate IC and OOC but the fact is some people are living vicariously through their characters and the things that their characters go through do impact them on a personal level.

@Daskalos calls Ezalor a "bloodsucker" for example. It's insulting to my character while it makes me chuckle OOCly and think "I'm going to have to go after him for it one day" fondly. It makes me want to go fight and interact with him more. On the flip side if someone was constantly throwing out "whore, f**kface, faggot, etc" and I didn't know them well prior to it, it's just natural for me to want to avoid them OOCly. I mean sure it's supposed to be purely IC but (rightly or wrongly) when someone gets that vehement right off the bat I get the impression that their player is a jerk and I don't want anything to do with them IC or OOC. It's a game, hearing those brutal insults hurled around lessens my enjoyment of the game. As much as my character is supposed to look down on and despise the living I'd still stick to using terms like sheep, weak, and fool. He dislikes Lunare greatly but sticks to calling them stuff like blasphemers, living-lovers, and so on. Be racist, misogynistic, loud, whatever but remember that it is a game above all and there's another player behind that screen.

It's a game guys. I'd love to be friends with all the lighters while Ezalor tries to eat them.

But I'll disclaim this whole thing by saying I haven't ever had a bad experience personally aimed at me. Maybe it's because I haven't put myself out to PK much yet but I think generally if you're being amicable to other people you'll receive the same in turn, even if your characters are diametrically opposed leaders of the hater's ball. If you're being bombarded with insults non-stop then chances are you aren't entirely faultless either.

Aldric · February 2013

Illidan said:

@Aldric Posted the same thing at the same time.

..Great ..minds?

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