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Teradrim (Re)Elections
Lin
BlackbirdThe Moonglade
This discussion was created from comments split from: Ankyrean Anguish - Aetolia-based RAGE.
The subject of this thread is sensitive. You may discuss it, but be warned that off-color comments, attacks, or other forms of abuse will be punished.
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[spoiler]readlog teradrim 0 6
2013/01/17 05:44:26 - Shinji > It has come to my attention that Caitlin still
has not been favoured to her next rank. So I hope we fix that soon.
2013/01/17 05:44:33 - Shinji guildfavoured Caitlin for: for above.
2013/01/17 05:45:11 - Shinji > ... hmm, it appears all she needed was one more
favour. Ignore the above then please.
(Caitlin went from GR 2 to 3. At this point he contested. Now we proceed to after the election.)
readlog teradrim 0 2
2013/01/21 01:39:00 - Wreton was inducted by Certimene.
2013/01/21 02:40:41 - Infin inguilded Haedyn.
2013/01/21 04:36:48 - Infin guildfavoured Macavity for: finishing his
requirements donations and gold to come next.
2013/01/21 04:37:44 - Infin > Needs Gr3 after election is over.
2013/01/21 04:38:23 - Macavity deposited 6000 gold at The Spinesreach Exchange.
2013/01/21 05:39:52 - Shinji guildfavoured Macavity for: for .
2013/01/21 05:41:36 - Shinji > Above.
2013/01/21 05:55:58 - Feichin guildfavoured Macavity for: rank.
2013/01/21 05:56:04 - Mephistoles guildfavoured Dalton for: for At the
Imperator's request.
2013/01/21 06:00:47 - Infin inguilded Shaye.
2013/01/21 06:39:25 - Sarita appointed Macavity as an aide to the novices.
2013/01/21 18:01:48 - Exayne deposited 5000 gold at The Blood Bank.
2013/01/21 18:56:31 - Haedyn deposited 1000 gold at The Blood Bank.
2013/01/21 18:58:17 - Infin > Haedyn needs to be favored to Gr2.
2013/01/21 21:18:27 - Sarita > My favour is too strong to make an Awakened a
Scion of Sand.
2013/01/21 22:22:32 - Austin was inducted in the introduction.
readlog teradrim 0 1
2013/01/22 01:36:02 - Infin guildfavoured Haedyn for: rank.
2013/01/22 01:47:55 - Infin inguilded Kiershu.
2013/01/22 04:45:46 - Shinji > Well done to Kiershu, they have passed both
their awakened and scion of sand requirements.
2013/01/22 04:46:18 - Shinji guildfavoured Kiershu for: for passing their
requirements, they will need to be favoured to the correct rank.
2013/01/22 06:54:14 - Shinji inguilded Paithan.
2013/01/22 07:55:47 - Infin inguilded Secora.
2013/01/22 11:04:20 - Alaron guildfavoured Kiershu for: Passing Scion of Sand.
2013/01/22 16:37:30 - Mephistoles guildfavoured Kiershu for: for passing her
Scion of the Sand interview.
2013/01/22 19:24:14 - Mankin was inducted in the introduction.
2013/01/22 22:00:43 - Frederick was inducted by Certimene.
readlog teradrim
2013/01/23 00:05:33 - Kajav was inducted in the introduction.
2013/01/23 01:18:22 - Sarita deleted file 'learning'
2013/01/23 01:18:56 - Sarita > The information contained there was both
outdated and more detailed in scrolls elsewhere.
2013/01/23 01:55:51 - Paithan deposited 1000 gold at The Blood Bank.
2013/01/23 01:59:02 - Paithan deposited 5000 gold at The Blood Bank.
2013/01/23 02:15:01 - Haedyn deposited 5000 gold at The Blood Bank.
2013/01/23 02:15:26 - Infin guildfavoured Haedyn for: Scion of Sand.
2013/01/23 02:15:52 - Shinji guildfavoured Paithan for: for above.
[/spoiler]
In summary, a total of four people were inducted in a span of two days and favored up to voting rank. Not long after, I receive this mistell from Infin and had the following short conversation.
[spoiler]
Infin tells you, "((that is if she will favor you so I can contest,,,."
You tell Prince Infin Quintus-Lunare, Blood Elder, "That was a mistake, I believe?"
Infin tells you, "((I had brackets you cant use it ingame against me."
You tell Prince Infin Quintus-Lunare, Blood Elder, "(Don't be a (slightly naughty word, because at this point I was a little annoyed.).)"
Infin tells you, "((its how it is))"
You tell Prince Infin Quintus-Lunare, Blood Elder, "(Because it's blatantly obvious anyway, but when you asked for a second chance, you got it. In spite of that, no one was able to name one specific thing they actually want to see changed.)"
Infin tells you, "((but It doesnt matter I have made up my mind))"
A contention for Guildmaster of Teradrim, #272277, has been voiced.
(Teradrim) Election #272277 has just opened for voting.[/spoiler]
Blatant metagaming to win an election without any IC effort being made to improve the guild on either of their parts for IC -years-? I know we have vote weights now, and that helps, but in the last election, there were still only 23 votes made. That means that a small effort really can make a difference in an election. I would suggest things like cool down times before someone can be contested again, or weight times before new members can vote, but really, this is coming across as "If at first you don't succeed, game the system until you do," and any sort of mechanical things can be overcome or dealt with other ways.
I guess it's just the mindset behind the players that gets to me. I've seen or heard about this happening in other elections for other orgs. The Templar election comes to mind, as well as several more recent Spinesreach ones. I'm not sure if it comes down to personal vendettas, power-grabbing, or something else entirely, but constant elections seem to be more detrimental to organizations than a lot of other things. It makes it hard to do things because things DO stop while elections are going on and people are waiting for the results, and to some extent, activity in other organizations gets suspended too because others need to know who they'll be working be in the future.
Apparently a lot of people don't like you being the Teradrim GM. However you can't go around accusing them of metagaming. For all you know they all could have been buddies IG and plotted to usurp you. For all you know you just happened to intercept a conversation between 2 players about what was going on in the game at that present time.
-2- days have passed since that election ended. Let me repeat that. -48- hours.
There has been NO RP with the new people joining. Most of them don't know Sarita, and ICly can't possibly have seen too much of the inner workings of the guild since they just have not been there at all. That's where the notion of metagaming comes in.
Nothing is going to get better. It's not.”
― Dr. Seuss, The Lorax
Nothing is going to get better. It's not.”
― Dr. Seuss, The Lorax
The only thing we're missing is Not Amika.
I can explain part of the issue with the guild leadership since no one else wants too. Firstly, the scrolls are outdated, irrelevant and show no link between the old teradrim and the current changes. This is a easy fix and there is no excuse for not fixing them. Yet it still has not been corrected and has made it hard for those of us who are either new to the guild or reawaken into it. Secondly, the atmosphere is hostile and this is in part due to the current structure or lack of secretaries to converse with. If anything, it feels like a monopoly and this alone forces many new players to just up and leave the guild because there is no progression for them.
I could go on, but why bother trying to speak about it any further both in the game or out of character, as it just gets ignored. And yes it was brought up SEVERAL times in the guild and ignored.
I hope this at the very least explains what this is about from my point of view, as I can not speak for others in this matter.
As far as Aetolia rules go, it's not illegal - it's just considered bad for by the majority of the people in the game. As for whether or not it's against the -guild- rules, I can't say.
Yes promoting people DURING an election is bad taste. Thankfully people were inducted and passed their requirements BEFORE any election happened. It isn't that surprising that a player over 200 years old can pass a simple level, donation, skill level and lore based requirement list.
This is the key point that seems to have been forgotten, the players who passed their requirements are old players. Simple as that.
You know, what gets me is that from Az's short time in the Teradrim I haven't seen not a single person offer any help to get the guild turned around and get everything updated, including myself as I have been preoccupied with other endeavors. It's simply been ohz noz I hates you, contest contest contest.
Sarita is doing the best she can with what she has to work with. Folks can't honestly expect her to put a complete newb to the guild as HoN, yes Mac, I'm referring to you. You know that I have no issues with you or your character so I'm not meaning any disrespect. I'd be more inclined to think she was a crappy leader if she were to appoint someone to the position who's only been in the guild for 2 or 3 days. Just shows me that she's looking for quality help that knows the ways of the guild that can truly lead the newbs to guildhood...and given the brief RP that took place last night with the guild tutor proves that there are very few individuals who should be remotely worthy of the position.
It just seems to me that nobody thinks they can do anything to help the guild unless they're the GM...which is a horrid outlook. Scrolls can be updated by anyone, you notice something that is incorrect, work with the leadership, you don't have to be GM just to get things accomplished.
It's shameful that metagaming like this is taking place, and yes, it is what it is - to say otherwise is fairly ignorant. The use of the renown OOC parenthesis (( )) prove that it was just that and to blatantly note "You can't use this against me IC", yep, again, I'm sorry, but pathetic.
Bur I guess only Erzsebet and Ezrax get immunity to the metagaming card, right?
Its like if a sandwich falls in the toilet (why this would ever happen, I don't know), do you try and figure out which part didn't touch the piss? Likewise, the whole election has been invalidated and befouled by a group of unknown size. But that's really just my opinion.
1. On the issue of metagaming, Seir's post hit the nail right on the head. Maybe not everyone who was inducted and promoted was "in" on what was going on, but it was clear that Infin is, and he is the one who contested. I'm not going to point any fingers beyond that. Metagaming is, by definition, taking actions IC based on information you know OOCly that your character does not. Yes, having rational debates with people or explaining what you want to change in a guild is perfectly IC and legit. Calculating vote weights and inducting/promoting accordingly is not.
As a side note here, no one was promoted during any of the elections. There were roughly two days (literally less than two IC months) in between when they all were.
2. Xavin's point on how little time there was between elections was a huge part of my initial "RAGE" with the entire thing. One of the very first things Sarita did after the last election was ask Shinji for more specifics on why he'd contested, what they could do to make things better, etc. She has asked other people ICly too. I did get some specific suggestions from one novice, but from people who will be voting in this particular election, the closest thing I got to an actual answer was, "I'll write you a list." Those never came. Even if they had, however, two days is an unreasonably short time to expect one single person to get everything done. This brings me to that last point I wanted to make.
3. The atmosphere of the guild right now. One of the big things I tried to do was use guild interviews, etc. as a chance to get to know the active players in the guild, find out if possible leadership/involvement things would be something they'd like to try, and so forth. Even before contesting initially, Sarita went out of her way to ask on GT on approach individuals who logged in regularly to see if they'd be interested in novice aide positions, learning shopkeeping, and those kinds of things. Whatever accusations there may be ICly, as a player, I think one of the worst things to do in an organization is keep people from getting involved. The single exception to this was when Macavity joined and a couple of days later asked to be HoN. No, I don't think it's in a guild's best interest to appoint someone who has only been there two days - especially when the guild has a terrible history of HoNs getting appointed and then abandoning the position. It's not a personal affront to anyone. Sarita immediately made him a novice aide and promised to consider him for the position after he had a chance to get to know the guild better, and she had a chance to see what he could do.
I am extremely well aware that it is difficult for one person alone to do everything - that's why I've been asking for suggestions, help, anything. The troubling thing about it all is that neither Infin nor Shinji made any effort at all to provide any of that before or (in Shinji's case) after contesting. Even when asked publicly by Sarita or others, there have been few answers or attempts to resolve things in any other IC way. Other people in the guild can and do see this. I've had people come up and ask why Infin contested (he took over a day to get around to writing one after contesting). I have watched other people asking what the problems are, and we haven't gotten anywhere. Judging from the little bit I've seen here and in game, the problem is that a select group of people don't like Sarita, and are deliberately making her look bad by not offering to help at all. I guess that's fine from the IC perspective, but OOCly, it's bad for an organization to go to those extremes. It's like Republicans and Democrats in the US Congress right now; individually many congressmen have high ratings from their parties, but overall approval ratings for the way they ran the country were terrible.
All that said, I know that no one's perfect, and there certainly are things I've tried or wanted to try fixing. I come name some of them, and I can even list potential solutions for some of them. I would be more than happy to discuss them right now with anyone in the guild. I would also be extremely happy to hear any problems you have, and see if we can work out solutions together. At least one problem that was brought up by Caitlin was a lack of IC information about certain topics. It got brought up over GT, and we were immediately treated to an IC discussion with the guild tutor, but even he said (ICly) that there were a lot of questions he couldn't answer. If those kinds of things are genuine IC concerns, then keeping it a secret still won't solve it. Election or not, there's just no way to write new GHELPs with information that the guild doesn't have. Vague references to other problems doesn't help the guild either. Saying that there's a problem, but not specifying what, confuses people and makes it impossible to actually work on solving something. To be very blunt, the best-run guilds I've seen in the game are ones where leaders actually work together rather than immediately work against each other. Elections, in those cases, are a last resort when other efforts have failed, or if a leader is stepping down. What bothers me as a player is that I have tried to work with everyone, and gotten nothing in return from the people who have contested. From what I've seen, it does lead to people picking sides, so to speak, and has the potential to start a vicious cycle of people not working together, resenting each other, and eventually contesting again and again.
But lets be honest, would Sarita have truly listened to ANYTHING Shinji said after the election? It is easy to say she would, but in reality she would not have. She was clearly upset by the election and confused why it even happen. THIS is not a attempt to insult Sarita, but any attempt to speak and express it was not a personal attack and had a reason were met with two or three words of a "HMFF!" nature. Which is understandable as said above.
In this Shinji spoke with others and we discussied what we felt were the issues, namely no attempt to update helpfiles to show what a novice had to do. No goals or tasks set for higher members besides jamming Shinji into the head of a clan that is barely used, asking him to repeat what he seen and did, namely with the event that happened. I seen after the election some shuffling of papers and an attempt to set up a contest with a short essay on strength. But that is really it. No time had passed for much else, I will admit, but why did we have to wait until after an election before something was done?
Is it so unbelieveable to understand that Shinji instead of making a list then and there, would seek out others and speak about what issues they had to later discuss as a whole?
Attempts to bring in more members have been now seen as a horrible horrible disguisting and shameful action that should be shunned and spat at, which is odd beyond simple words. It is a new guild of sorts, we have all seen members joining and in some cases leaving days later once they think they know everything.
Why this comes as a shock confuses me.