guild vs guild feuding: keeping it small-scale

Irruel · January 2014

I don't know if this will be an issue or not. Just say I'd had an idea for a rp conflict between whoever in my guild will listen to me, and another guild. I think it could be a whole lot of fun, and it will definitely turn into plenty of pvp.

I'm worried though, that orders, cities and other guilds will all want to join in once the pvp begins, and it will be ruined.

Is that a legitimate worry these days in Aet? I vaguely remember a discussion touching this a couple of months ago.

Jensen · January 2014

I always worry that when one group starts losing they'll call in all bored fighters. Could be fun though

Riluo · January 2014

I did this with vampire Houses twice. In one case for pk only, and the other was a predefined agreement for rped with another house leader and we made a few jabs at each other to spice it up via shouts, channel debates. I researched city laws found loopholes and started to publicly call the other house out. Needless to say "certain" alts logged on and cried to the then city leaders and members of other guilds joined in for a pk fest. I was made an enemy to said guilds and city laws got changed, I was jumped for ages after it by people not even linked to the houses. When all we wanted was pk/rp to stir up activity in our houses. In the end we cut our rp short with the other person publicly shouting they submitted to my might, and I beheaded them at the crack. Which screwed it for us both -sigh-

All I can say is make it very clear from the start who is involved so as to cut out the idiots.

Piper · January 2014

It seems to be a bit of a worry, yeah. I remember there being one event Macian tried to start up between his guild and another and it became a big fiasco or something. At least, I read about him not appreciating the overall turnout.

Teani · January 2014

I'd say it all depends on how it's handled. The game needs conflicts, but if there's a constant fear of allies always jumping in when things seem less than balanced or whenever there's a deathmessage, then I'm afraid people will shy away from starting one. It would be great if things could be kept small though.

Say the Shamans decide to fix the Aureliana desert, thus going against Ivoln. A Shaman dies by the hand of one of Ivolns people for defending the forest they just created by removing sand. If the allies are unaware of the little conflict thing that has been created between the Shamans and Ivoln, the deathmessage is likely to be followed by one of the following things:

- An ally combatant rushes to their aide without asking what it is about. Their excuse? It's a friend/ally/they were bored and thought it was a PK feast/the person who died is not really a combatant, so they'll go save the day/<insert other possible reason>

- An ally combatant asks what is going on, getting told it's a conflict about the forests, and decides they want to join in because "hey, as a member of Duiran I protect the forests too!" ignoring the fact that it might be something they should not get involved in (fights are fun!).

As a leader of one of the involved organizations it's important to

- communicate to the entire guild what is going on, so that everyone is aware.

- take note of anyone feeling grief or being unwilling to participate so a small note can be slipped to the other organization (ex: person A is a noncom and won't participate in conflict.)

It's equally important that -anyone- from another organization that joins in is told off right away and asked to leave things be even if it looks like their allies are losing. Sometimes a fight is lost, the org members can hang their heads for a while, then get going on a new project or a new approach, while the winners get to gloat for a little while.

Amberlea · January 2014

Starting conflict RP between guilds is great. Make sure you make news posts and shouts so everyone about knows exactly why you are killing each other. It can definitely cut down on random, nonsensical intervention if people know ahead of time to expect some deathsights and reason to believe it might not be any of their business.

On another hand, and not just to play devil's advocate, but I really feel this way: If you are killing each other, or RPing some event that characters outside of your intended scope care about, I think it is entirely legitimate for them to become involved. To provide an example, building off of Teani's Aureliana example: Maybe there is some sentinel for whom the Aureliana forest is important for whatever reason. They've spent huge amounts of time in game roleplaying just how important the place is to them. They see this conflict suddenly crop up between the shaman and Ivoln's order. Assuming that their RP had been consistently congruent with the aims of the shaman now working in the area, wouldn't it be pretty stupid and bad RP to not get involved because of some arbitrary 'but this is my guild thing' reason?

Does it make sense to tell a player they cannot participate in something their character would totally participate in because of what guild they are/aren't in? Should we tell other characters what they do and don't care about because of their affiliations? If a player enthusiastically wants to participate, and it makes sense for their character to do so, is it good for the game to tell them they can't because they don't belong to exclusive group X?

Haven · January 2014

Create more conflict avenues and this won't be as much of an issue if at all as people, for the most part, will be off doing their own thing.

Teani · January 2014

In general, people are starving for a conflict, which is why they tend to jump in on everything if they get even the slightest chance. I agree with @Haven, create more and it's less likely one will be disrupted.

@Amberlea: I don't think it's a bad thing if said person gets involved, but perhaps that person should go through proper channels rather than barging in, maybe?

All in all, I wish that some players would take a moment to think before rushing into a conflict, see if help is welcomed or not. Some people are actually out on tasks, so doing the task for them won't really be helping.

Ferrik · January 2014

Teani said:

I wish that some players would take a moment to think... before rushing into a conflict

Yes well that's a tall order for some.

Once the opportunity pops up, people will rush in - simply because it has been so long for a chance to. It would take quite a lot of conflict at the start for it to die down and start dividing itself. This is simple human Aetolian nature. "Something going on? Oh I want in on this!" Bork bork. We'll ask questions later.

Amberlea · January 2014

Teani said:

...
@Amberlea: I don't think it's a bad thing if said person gets involved, but perhaps that person should go through proper channels rather than barging in, maybe?
...

What are the proper channels when you walk into a room where a bunch of people are attacking each other? Sounds great on paper, but waiting for permission to roleplay your character from someone who is trying desperately to avoid a vlock, amidst insane combat spam, doesn't exactly sound practical.

Teani · January 2014

@Amberlea: First off, how would the Aureliana-loving person know that it is about saving the forest without asking someone about it?

Second, in my scenario, which is what you were using as an example, someone had died, so them getting involved would be a reaction to that. Waiting to ask questions when said person return from the Halls would be appropriate, I think?

@Ferrik: I know it's asking a lot, one could wish though, right?

Rashar · January 2014

If a companion of mine died, I would be moving far faster than it took them to return from the halls.

Just saying, and ICly of course. It doesn't always work that way in reality.

Moirean · January 2014

You don't get PK cause just because someone killed your pal. This basic rule seems to be forgotten a lot lately.

Ashmer · January 2014

Moirean said:

You don't get PK cause just because someone killed your pal. This basic rule seems to be forgotten a lot lately.

This is a lot of where trollfests happen, and people get resigned about PK and conflict as a whole. It really does require a "with great power comes great responsibility" kind of mindset.

Also, a lot of this can also be generated with polite conversation between two players, entirely OOC, about the conflict they just started - not necessarily before, but once you've started to go down that road, you can take a time out and discuss how y'all want it to proceed. Player-to-player communication here, I've found, is generally very weak, with a lot of communications I've received being rude or even downright venomous. Strong communication is -critical- to creating a plot collaboratively.

Teani · January 2014

@Rashar: That mentality right there is what some of us have been trying to get away from for ages, because it blows all minor conflicts out of proportion. You are far from the only one rushing in because a friend died.

Yes, you don't get PK reason if a friend of yours is killed, but most will just claim they're aware of the consequences of opening themselves up to PK for interfering. And that, of course, is how it all begins. I can understand someone defending a friend who is being jumped while they are in the same room (and I'd really like for that to not spread PK reasons because it's a natural reaction even if you don't want to get involved in further conflict), or if someone is being jumped for no apparent reason and calls out for help.

The latter is more about PK rules than Org-conflicts, but yeah, some people won't be able to hold themselves back because "OMG PK/conflict - I want in!!"

Irruel · January 2014

I understand the desire to get in on a bit of action. I was guilty of that not too long ago - that weirdness between Slyphe's order and (was it Chak's order? I never really got it straight. @Ashmer was involved by the time I stuck my ugly head into the middle of it).

To be honest though, it's not nearly as much fun when you're the outside trying to push in.

Part of the problem was that everyone involved seemed to be my ally or enemy, but no one was able to tell me what it was about. For all I knew, if I didn't join in I'd get in the shit later for not helping.

Taelin · January 2014

In general, people are starving for a conflict, which is why they tend to jump in on everything if they get even the slightest chance. I agree with @Haven, create more and it's less likely one will be disrupted.

Think of it like a soldier gone to battle and hasn't seen a woman for months. He is gonna be thirsting for that first opportunity for release, regardless of from where it comes.

Amberlea · January 2014

Teani said:

@Amberlea: First off, how would the Aureliana-loving person know that it is about saving the forest without asking someone about it?
Second, in my scenario, which is what you were using as an example, someone had died, so them getting involved would be a reaction to that. Waiting to ask questions when said person return from the Halls would be appropriate, I think?...

Because the Tsol'aa Aureliana loving sentinel saw the Ivolnite shout about how the forest will never be cleansed just after her husband got drained by a pack of vampires in the forest.

The spirit of PK rules is obviously to prevent griefing, not inhibit roleplay. Even a seemingly random instance of someone charging blindly into a conflict might have a whole lot more backstory than you are aware of. I'll give an example of myself: Several weeks ago Amberlea was off visiting her mother and a friend at a bar in Delos. After a while of hanging around a bunch of deathsights start going off, including at least 3 of her father killing people. No shouts, no posts, nothing. Now, me as a player, I figured it's probably a lesser. Amberlea as a character had, at that point, been waiting for a long time to avenge her mother's death at her father's hands (

@Akirash he's one of my BFF's, it's just an RP thing. He knew I was looking for us to have a showdown, and it's something we had RP'd about ). Suddenly he's out actively killing people? Now's Amberlea's chance. Yep, she burst into the room, where there was a big fight in progress. Without asking anyone if she could play too, and without joining any web or coordinating at at all, she goes for Aki's throat. Akirash goes down in the fighting and moments later I die too. Later, Amberlea gets enemied to Chakrasul because, apparently, it was some order thing or something. This then opened up some more RP opportunities with some of the others involved.

So, am I doing it wrong? Is it realistic for me to completely disregard my RP up to that point, and not do what Amberlea would totally have done? Is this the ideal future we are dreaming of?

Haven · January 2014

Amberlea said:

Teani said:

@Amberlea: First off, how would the Aureliana-loving person know that it is about saving the forest without asking someone about it?
Second, in my scenario, which is what you were using as an example, someone had died, so them getting involved would be a reaction to that. Waiting to ask questions when said person return from the Halls would be appropriate, I think?...

Because the Tsol'aa Aureliana loving sentinel saw the Ivolnite shout about how the forest will never be cleansed just after her husband got drained by a pack of vampires in the forest.

The spirit of PK rules is obviously to prevent griefing, not inhibit roleplay. Even a seemingly random instance of someone charging blindly into a conflict might have a whole lot more backstory than you are aware of. I'll give an example of myself: Several weeks ago Amberlea was off visiting her mother and a friend at a bar in Delos. After a while of hanging around a bunch of deathsights start going off, including at least 3 of her father killing people. No shouts, no posts, nothing. Now, me as a player, I figured it's probably a lesser. Amberlea as a character had, at that point, been waiting for a long time to avenge her mother's death at her father's hands ( @Akirash he's one of my BFF's, it's just an RP thing. He knew I was looking for us to have a showdown, and it's something we had RP'd about ). Suddenly he's out actively killing people? Now's Amberlea's chance. Yep, she burst into the room, where there was a big fight in progress. Without asking anyone if she could play too, and without joining any web or coordinating at at all, she goes for Aki's throat. Akirash goes down in the fighting and moments later I die too. Later, Amberlea gets enemied to Chakrasul because, apparently, it was some order thing or something. This then opened up some more RP opportunities with some of the others involved.

So, am I doing it wrong? Is it realistic for me to completely disregard my RP up to that point, and not do what Amberlea would totally have done? Is this the ideal future we are dreaming of?

@Amberlea: I think you're misunderstanding what some of the others are saying. It all boils down to there being communication and transparency on some level between players, not necessarily the characters. Which is what they're advocating, at least some of them. The part I highlighted in your post seems to suggest that there has been some communication between you and your friend about the ordeal on some level, so I think the situation you described is perfectly appropriate.

Moirean · January 2014

Waiting for another time or place to get your revenge isn't disregarding your RP. It's being considerate and not dogpiling in to a team PK situation.

Elyni · January 2014

Getting a random killing blow, during a group fight that you're not even a part of is considered avenging a death?

Um... Sounds like someone being bored, and getting involved where they don't belong to me, I don't know...

Amberlea · January 2014

@Elyni I Didn't get the killing blow and I didn't consider the death completely avenged, but that doesn't change the fact that it is exactly what Amberlea would have done.

As I mentioned, OOCly it was my belief that I was walking into a lesser, not some order event, so as far as I was aware I had every right to come and participate. The fact that there was someone there who I wanted to interact with just changed it from a lesser I might have blown off to continue the things I was already doing to something I was quite interested in showing up to. I didn't find out it was something else until Aki and I were talking after I got done at the mirror. I'd probably not have interfered if I had known it was some order thing, because the impression I got from our conversation was that the people I saw the deathsights for didn't have any reason to be there either, but in general I don't believe in ignoring the presence, words, or actions of other characters just because it is convenient, for me OR for them.

Elyni · January 2014

What @Moirean basically said, then... If you're unsure of exactly what's going on, then ask.

PS. Just because others may not belong there, doesn't make it any more right for you to jump in as well. Kinda reminds me of a recent event in Achaea which was supposed to be a simple debate between two factions, that ended in a random group of lolpkers jumping in and completely wrecking it. Ignorance sucks.

Amberlea · January 2014

Maybe being the ultra-popular kids you are, you've probably never had a situation where you asked what was going on only to sit in silence afterwards when nobody responds. The people I might have asked were dead anyways (see: Deathsights). I know I'm not going to stop attacking in the middle of a fight to respond to tells, and I don't really expect other people to, either. This is why I mentioned it being a good idea for people to shout and/or news about whatever conflict they are trying to arrange, because then you don't have to ask people.

Elyni said:
...

PS. Just because others may not belong there, doesn't make it any more right for you to jump in as well. Kinda reminds me of a recent event in Achaea which was supposed to be a simple debate between two factions, that ended in a random group of lolpkers jumping in and completely wrecking it. Ignorance sucks.

I'm just going to assume you didn't read what I wrote, or did not properly interpret that part of my message.

Periluna · January 2014

Okay ladies. You are both pretty.

Akirash · May 2014

Lol

Ambub. Akirash knew why you were there ICly, I didn't realize that was why you got enemied though.

Tina · May 2014

Aye, others who aren't part of the orgs will almost always join into the conflict. It's all some people live for, and there isn't much conflict going on outside of the lessers which the novelty of wore off a while ago. But it's not fair to just say people shouldn't join in, it also falls on the original org. Nobody likes losing, and I've almost never seen an org tell random allies who show up to leave, this doesn't concern them. They'll take the extra help to ensure they win.

To really keep it between the orgs, you'd need some kind of understanding were both orgs tell people that join in that aren't part of them to leave, or their allies will get in trouble/be attacked as well. Of course that opens up a whole new can of issues.

Multiple small scale things like that have been attempted for Chak and Indo, and they just never seem to pan out without others getting involved. Even when the other side didn't want aide too, seemed to naturally happen. Like with Slyphe, and with the Sentinels. I'm not really sure a way to keep the allies out, short of you policing your own allies and forcing them out, and being willing to deal with the fallout from that.

Tina · May 2014

And people need to be ok with their org losing. If you are in a conflict, and you are weaker then the enemy, or at least weaker at the specific time the conflict is happening compared to them, you should be ok with losing. When you don't, you get the situation where so and so was losing, now random people joined them and they are winning. They won't tell their allies to leave so they can go back to losing, which needs to happen. Then the other side starts losing cause of the unrelated allies, and they feel like they shouldn't lose cause the other side is cheating, so they bring in allies.

You gotta be ok with standing up and losing for your principles as well.

Toz · May 2014

(This thread is from January)

Rou · May 2014

(And these forums are from 2012.) Most of these concerns can be addressed with HELP PK and HELP ISSUES though.

Ishin · May 2014

We actually had a little beef with @Trager there when he snagged class(somehow*peer*), and for a while we would fight him. I'm not sure of the details, but I'm pretty sure that stayed Syssin vs Trager, and I don't even seem to recall us dogpiling him as a guild. Most of the fights were 1v1 that I knew of. It was pretty fun, and it was low-key, but that could just be because we're so secretive and stuff too.

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