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Vaguely knowing the situation this thread is alluding to, we're talking about what is probably one of, it not, the least tolerant guilds on the scale by design. And even so, it was a very specific line that was crossed, and a choice made by the individual to conform rather than continue crossing that specific line and bringing more trouble (not even outguilding, afaik).
I think this is RP working as intended.
Even if some of this is connected to something very recent (which people have been alluding to in their posts), it is not the isolated incidence they seem to believe it is. I know of several people who have had this feeling, and felt like they've had to tiptoe around certain people because of it.
Once again, I am glad to see that there are good examples of leaders who don't use this method, but it remains a problem that people need to be aware of; there are players out there who fear this might happen to them. If the community can't see that this is a problem, I don't know what else to say. All I can really ask is to make sure there's always an open line of communication, and that people around them know that it's alright to speak up about it.
I just wanna bang @Saybre in his armoured suit as he whispers to me sweet-nothings about Sir Cluck and his fantasy of wanting to own and mount a c... hicken of his own too.
I WILL NOT BE STOPPED!!!!
If this is what the conversation distills into, there will always be something you want from the other half of the game, and you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. Consequences give meaning to what you do, and barriers give challenge to the game, that's a game. Embrace the game.
I have actual opinions on the outguild button though. As explained in HELP 8.7:
While a Guildmaster may, at his or her option, choose to expel a guildmember, the Gods prefer that some leniency is given, especially for young members.
Kicking someone from a guild should happen never. If it does happen, the event should be well documented with a clear reason why it happened and what would be needed to allow said exile back into the guild. There is never a reason to permanently ban anyone, and no exiling should last longer than a real life year. Enemy status should not be maintained for longer than a year, though I'm completely cool with requiring that the exile ask to have enemy status actually lifted.
What situations demand a boot? If you can ISSUE the person, and you think you will win, you can probably go ahead with the boot. There are 0 other reasons to destroy someone's rank, put into question their works, destroy their ability to vote, remove their sanction privileges, and remove access to stuff within a guildhall for less. The room for abuse is huge.
https://twitter.com/TastyArts
Probably listening to this.
I agree that there's probably a conversation to be had regarding despotism and what to do about it (if anything), but overall that seems like a different conversation than this one was originally.
You get your story arc told without those consequences coming into play? Spicy, you pulled off something major.
You told your story but had consequences? Character building, avenue opening, rerouting options ahead.
Which I think is a great thing to have. If the game is too heavily regulated by the admins to be a storytelling experience, rather than being one in which where you can feel you are making a difference that's taking away from the potential of RP experience for me.
So yes, consequences are great. I hope those people feel like they left their mark on the game and their decisions mattered. Because honestly, what more can you ask for from a fantasy world?
The outguild button has meaningful mechanical use that can easily be abused, and you're either disagreeing with the importance of the values I'm stating (GR, plagiarism/disrespecting volunteer time, influencing elections and referendums, sanction privs, guildhall), or disregarding them because whatever vision of your guild you're defending is too important to give people every opportunity to play the game and ingratiate themselves into eventual leadership responsibility. Or, you're being lazy, a prick, an elitist, or a combination of these things. Punish your errant guild members in other ways. I'm missing any posts here that describe another reason it's okay to outguild, regardless of my take where I expect book-keeping and due process.
Ultimately, if people don't want me around, I don't want to be around. This is a social game and people don't want to social, I'm not going argue with them. Half my reservations about engagement are the stated fear that I can arbitrarily (ego, preference, w/e) have all that engagement wasted by not even the guild master's privs. And even if I somehow win an issue and get back into the guild, why stay? The same people that wanted me out still want me out, and will eventually kick me again for something else just as arbitrary. It's a huge loss-loss unless you're ruining the clique-in-charge's day.
https://twitter.com/TastyArts
Probably listening to this.
https://twitter.com/TastyArts
Probably listening to this.
edit: Pre-emptively saying I deserve all the off-topic ratings I get.
I'd consider that valid grounds for an outguilding.
A complete and outright counter to the RP is a different case. A templar who murders children and sleeps with vampires should probably get one warning or directly kicked out for those actions. Sometimes it's obvious you don't belong somewhere. Every guild/org has laws/oaths/rules and I think people don't really let them sink into their RP aspirations.
The process would probably be the same for dealing with conflict, guild leadership would have a talk with the person, let them know that they should really try to get in line with the others. Or not. How are people who roleplay differently (Not directly opposite) from a guild's roleplay any different than members who do absolutely nothing, are completely silent, and contribute nothing to the organization?
If someone wants to roleplay slightly off-center from a guild's theme, but not directly opposed to it, and it passes the 'Not very destructive' test, I don't see why guild leadership needs to step in at all. To bring up the Carnifex, though, they're structured very much like the military, and not listening to orders is perfect grounds for punishment or discharge. I always imagine the Carnifex like every military bootcamp movie scene where they're constantly being verbally and physically beat on by leadership to toughen them up or break them entirely so they quit. I don't which other guild has such obvious consistent roleplay reasons for being strict about roleplay to remain in the guild.
tl;dr: RP is tricky. Leadership should try to include diverse voices if it doesn't harm the guild. If you're afraid your RP will get you kicked out, use that to change or come to a decision to get kicked out.
people who have had this feeling
felt like they've had to
there are players out there who fear
Sometimes people's feelings are just dumb, man. There's people who feel like all kinds of things, and catering to them all isn't going to help a soul. If you disagree with me, let it be known that I feel like disagreeing with me is equal to an acute attempt on my life, so please respect this feeling by not doing so.
Pretty sure any guild would oust you for PKing the leadership, regardless of why you PK'd them. Doubly so if they're military in nature.
Were a bit spoiled in aetolia because nearly all "consequences" here can be reversed over time. You have to fuck up really bad multiple times to not get back into a guild or city eventually. I've seen someone literally piss off every city on the entire mud and still the admin said they had to be allowed a path back in.
Just get over it, go grab yourself a soy beverage, listen to some emo 90s punk music and contemplate what you really want for your character's life. Then come back and go in that direction because really, no one is stopping you other than yourself.
- Selling guild secrets. Unless it's regarding an event happening right now, or OrgReq/divine/future stuff, I'm not impressed. If it is, admin will probably act before the guild will. Granted, you can probably cover the most egregious violations under...
- Stealing from the guild. Internal theft is an acceptable reason. I actually should have made an exception for it. I would temper this with what's actually being stolen, but in cases where it's a guild problem you're probably clear to do it. External theft, one of your members stealing other people's stuff, will probably get handled before the guild gets to touch it. I can't tell who allows or encourages it anymore.
- Killing guild members. HELP PK. If you can't ISSUE it, I'm also not impressed. Fights will happen, and a different punishment can be used for a single moment of conflict.
- Actively going against guild goals and ideals. This is dependent on the guild, and I'd rather discuss individual issues then make a blanket statement. There's few actions a player can take that so violate 'ideals' enough to actively harm the rest of the guild. What Elene is joking about is w/e to me. Pregnant vampires and undead are worse. Letting your ents get killed/harvested for... w/e, is much worse. Even if you let these deviants go from the guild, and get someone from the city to kick them too, they retain class and continue debasing precious lore for as long as they're interested in pursuing the character. I'd rather have the deviants in house so they can be more easily monitored and possibly guided away from being deviant. If the fan starts to stink even after, you'll probably see the person quit far before you ask them to leave.
Treason, as applied, is vague to me. I don't like making the exception for it alone. I'm going to instead provide a few more items that don't invite vagueness and abuse: vandalism (property, HELP scrolls, and clans); actively helping an enemy raid against the guild, its city, or its allies declared in a treaty; actively reporting GT, GWHO, or guild/clan news posts to outside individuals (alt abuse in general); and other stuff that'll probably end up as an ISSUE to get cleaned up. Which was my stipulation anyway.If you're also upset with the idea that a permanent ban is wrong Haven, I can't argue a feeling at length. Forgiveness should be possible, because shrubbing and lack of interest should be the only reasons not to play the game. Karhast has it.
Organizational health was mentioned. Are you referring the prior points as damaging overall the harmony of the org, or that this is some separate crime? As the former, I don't get it. As the later, this sounds like, 'People don't agree with ME and don't PK with ME and won't do quests and instances with ME and won't vote for ME and won't donate to ME so I'm going to kick everyone that threatens my milestones and shops and whatever else I think is important including the org I currently control.'
I am probably assuming a lot. What in particular am I assuming that's so wrong to you?
https://twitter.com/TastyArts
Probably listening to this.
Frankly, most of the rules fit this interpretation, and the Guild Leadership during that period of time use it as they will.
Just.. don't use the administration's guidelines as more than just basic MUD decency (that can be punishable) and pull a "This Guild won't allow me to kill whoever I want within it, but I'm not breaking the Help PK Guidelines so their laws/rules regarding this are oppressive and dumb."
Forgive me if I am misinterpreting your text, but that is the kind of dismissive take I got from this, and this entire thread is about how Guild Laws and the Guild's general code of conduct can affect punishments and decision making regarding said punishments.
Edit: Made it less directly confrontational with a word change. Silly me.
To me, the entire thread is about lifting your foot off the outguild pedal so characters can have the freedom RP. It's in the thread title. I tried to tl;dr with a joke for the 'actual' subject of the thread, but that didn't find an audience.
I'm also stupid. I admit it. I'm bad with people. It's why I'm not being vague when I address the forum. I have been affected by the outguild button. I'm being blunt and honest with where my head is, because it will probably be the only way I answer my questions. I might be dismissive of the importance of murder. I agree. The alternative is less tolerable and fun though, so... w/e. This probably tilts depending on vampire/undead or living. My point still is, I prefer leniency for something as trivial as a death.
https://twitter.com/TastyArts
Probably listening to this.