PK

Angwe · October 2013

The true strength of Dex bashing is getting balance back fast enough to duck out of the room when your health drops below 50%. Resist the urge to go for one more hit and you'll be fine.

Ezalor · October 2013

I feel like Dex could stand to gain a point of con, not much reason it should be squishier than Wise.

Saybre · October 2013

So, since my name has been dropped enough times here. (Yay popular!)

I'll say this:

Whether using Sacrifice or NOT, I have to -always- watch myself when bashing anything in the range of elemental. Whether this is because of damage scaling to my artifacts moreso than Ezalor's Templar (I have +3 Sip, +3 Con, +2 Con), it's ridiculous.

Weirdly enough, most often I survive -better- using sacrifice, because I kill things faster, have better chance to crit and get them done with before I get a random 3k+ elemental spike of damage.

I currently have : Templar, Lycan, Monk, Syssin.
Lycan, Monk, and Syssin all bash easier for me than Templar. Tiyen is primarily cutting/blunt, so in that regard Templar is beast because of fullplate, that I fully 100% agree.

The reason that I see why my other three classes are better, is because of the -way- they mitigate damage. Audits be damned.

Lycan - Cornering (Dodge), has weathering, thick fur, etc. Can also howl health back.
Monk - Transmute(GOD I LOVE TRANSMUTE), Vitality, Kai defences (since game is down, I don't know them off the top of my head).
Syssin - Weaving (Dodge) - This is probably the biggest thing, I can just manage to avoid hits enough it doesn't matter.

Templar - Healing Aura (+2 Con, passive healing) <- I -have- to run this, or I'll die guaranteed. I have tried with Protection aura, it doesn't work for elemental, since it's only Physical + Magic. I miss Resistance aura so much, and as I've said many times. I would kill to just have Weathering back.

When it comes to PvP, Running defensive auras for every offense tactic is ridiculous. I focus on Maces for rupture damage, so I need Purity for the strength boost (we used to have MIGHT for strength, rather than an aura, that worked well to have defences). Again Protection aura is handy as a blessing, but the AURA bonus is not enough to warrant taking it over increased offensive capability..ever.

When it comes to Affliction fighting, I agree with @Ezalor regarding Pestilence Aura, the hidden part only messes up newbie fighters, and even they can adapt easily enough to it. If I'm doing standard lazy retribution, it doesn't even matter, because I roll that with a team. If I'm going for an actual affliction kill, then I still run purity, because my entire point is to get withering stuck and kill via damage (Yay Withering!) - This doesn't mean that's the 100% way to do it, but it's worked for me.

Brings to mind the old saying 'The best defense is a good offense' I can become Turtle-Mode Templar and get literally nowhere, but maybe survive for 30 seconds longer, or I can bring my A-game and actually get somewhere.

Irruel · October 2013

Ezalor said:

I feel like Dex could stand to gain a point of con, not much reason it should be squishier than Wise.

Wise is two (maybe three) statpacks rolled into one. It isn't only the 'dex' statpack of the equilibrium world. It is all of them at the same time.

I don't necessarily disagree with you; I'm just not sure if you are considering wise to be the herculean equivalent as well as the dexterous equivalent.

On the other hand, please give me more health. These new bashing places hurt, despite having much the same arti-set as Missari, and I seem to be making a habit of picking up squishy classes that encourage dex statpack. (Excepting shamans).

Azton · October 2013

Sorry for going back to why this thread was made in the first place.. but I dont see WHY Lifers can complain about not having numbers and suchs for fights as I've been trying for the past week/or three to get into lesser fights with them but keep getting knocked back at every chance... (on my alt) .. So I'm unsure how you get novices involved in such things..

Also, @Saybre you shouldn't say stuff like "I have to -always- watch myself when bashing anything in the range of elemental" as Powerful Sapivi Vampire with like 60/60audit I have to watch myself bashing Elementals, Elementals are meant for Group combat as said many times on the forums.. not trying to be B'itchy just you should range it on Tiyen, Xaanhal or that lovely forgotten place, Servants/Villagers (unsure how to spell its name!lol)) but yeah not trying to pick at you .. so Do apologise if thats how you take it

Saybre · October 2013

To clarify, by 'elemental' I wasn't referring to elemental mobs. Elemental damage types: Fire, electric, Magic, Cold, etc.

Angwe · October 2013

Azton, what do you mean by 'knocked back'? Do you mean you're having a hard time getting others to enter or attempt combat?

Azton · October 2013

Angwe said:

Azton, what do you mean by 'knocked back'? Do you mean you're having a hard time getting others to enter or attempt combat?

Having a hard time to participate in helping! Only so many times You can hint at wanting to do combat/help ... before it gets soo boring... IF I said half the stuff I've been saying in Spines/loch Org's I would have been thrown in straight away!, I wouldn't have even have to do all this asking that I have been..

So maybe thats half of the issue with lifers group combat.. You might say you are willing to take anyone but when push comes to stuff.. you make it difficult for others to help!

yes might be a --beep-- post but I'm seriously not trying to be just trying to point out the diffeerent minds sets on such things..

Stathan · October 2013

Numbers aren't really the issue in most cases. It's artifact boosted damage (doppy decay spam) or coordination. Simply put there are small groups of Lifers that have PK set ups with 2 or 3 people because they fight with them often enough.

An example of this is not to long ago I remember running a Lesser with Dato and 2 or 3 other people. And it's left like that, no names, because I honestly couldn't tell you who it was, but at the end of the fight Dato commented "Well Stathan and I have practice together" and at one point during the fight I believe he said "Stat and I are going to be doing (skill combo) because we have practice with it" and we still ended up getting trounced because we had 2 small 2 man groups without any coordination or followup from all parties involved and that is something that could be changed.

Hell now I have it set up to list afflictions I batter on my target and have it set up to announce when I use Kai-Cripple. But that only goes so far, and it would likely require people coding that into their trackers to be effective. I do it on the off chance that it will help someone else (Dato has it in his tracker to track my web announced batter afflictions) and possibly further the combat scene for the lifers. I have admittedly been absent recently though and I'd rather not go into details, but the short version is stress sucks.

@Azton, I'm going to guess the issue you've been having is higher up people telling you to back off the lesser or just not showing up to help and leaving you there to get thumped. I dealt with that for a while when I was missing a few select people when they were logging in, but when I get around at the right times we try but the general mentality "We're going to get jumped by X person and backup, why bother?" Admittedly I've fallen prey to saying that at times because well, for a while there if Ezalor was involved in the Lesser fight I was first target, 95% of the time, and one of those times Dask and a few other bigger name people were there. I may have egged him on by joking around OOC about feeling special but I know he did it because Kai Banish is just that annoying and I was the only monk in the group.

On a side note:

The last time I invested time and effort into a class as much as I'm invested in Stathan right now was a Sentinel, some 5 or 6 years ago, during the last war. And I fought as Resilient, because he's not even 80 yet, with metamorphosis and weaponry and did exceptionally well. (You can ask Haven what happens when you lunge a Sentinel sometime <.<) But with the changes to the class, IE Dhuriv, changes to traps, upcoming changes to woodlore (which I believe are mostly QOL changes to make skills work with Dhurives) I just can't really be bothered to go learn it again even though it was my all time favorite PK class. For some of us (as an example) that spend time away and come back to severe changes, it dissuades us from getting back into PK with a class we could probably do good with in favor of finding a class that bashes easy (monk in my case) and just dabbling in PK.

Azton · October 2013

@Stathan .. I would love for people to tell me 'to back off the lesser or just not showing up to help and leaving you there to get thumped.' but NO one has told him anything, or even told him about lessers/other combat things, Granted I already know about it all but seems STUPID as what if he was a true new who didnt know but wanted to help? is my point you guys need to welcome more people when they mention about combat .. (im going to stop after this post.. as I could write forever about this)

and No offence but you cant complain about dopplegangers, banishment kills that or shield.. granted the damage is really dumb but I guess thats something Admins will have to look into, doing 2k range I would rather take the templar 2k in room, as least we got a chance to stop them but thats where you bug a liaison to look into it or something...

But my last point, I've been in the lifers on Azton where I went to lessers 3 Vs just me! and after 10 mins of dragging them away from the foci had Serrice and illidan show up to splat them.. so them having more people means nothing in my books.. no offense! Death is entitled in PK its stopping them from extractiong/being a pain which is the fun! I once made Conner, Moi and another Carni last over an hour at a lesser because I was just angel beckoning them away..

Missari · October 2013

It's not fair ;-;

Angwe · October 2013

Ugh, I hate annoyance tactics like that. Please don't make that a thing.

Ezalor · October 2013

Well the thing is @Saybre the defensive effects far outweigh the offensive ones. Purity is indeed good for damage but you don't need damage if you have all their limbs broken and them unable to do anything. You don't need damage to retri kill people. If they made an offensive aura that increased speed or something it'd be worth using (plzno) but cleansing, meditation, protection, and accuracy are all situationally better than the offensive auras. Accuracy is actually very underrated imo and a dealbreaker aura/blessing against other venom classes; when coupled with cleansing (one as aura one as blessing) Templars get a huge advantage over most other aff classes.

Xenia · October 2013

@Staton One thing that happens in the Carnifex guild is that as recruits, because we have to help in a lesser to get to GR3, we are drilled on what things we can do to help in group combat and what to watch for. We aren't given the text lines unless we ask for them, but we're taught through the guild what attacks will be most helpful in a team situation early on. Additionally we are then trained in an arena room, where we can practice getting off our combos.

Lately, this trend has spread into Spinesreach. We practice together and learn what things work best with the other classes. A lot of times, in early combat, I was told your job is X. We will call it in web to you and you do X. This is all you are to do. At first it started with hooking to enable proneing, later it became skewer. Then it became razing shields. After a few months of this coaching I was able to assess the situation and respond on my own.

Perhaps taking time to do this and learning what skills one can do to enable other classes is a good way to change that trend.

Stathan · October 2013

Xenia said:

@Staton One thing that happens in the Carnifex guild is that as recruits, because we have to help in a lesser to get to GR3, we are drilled on what things we can do to help in group combat and what to watch for. We aren't given the text lines unless we ask for them, but we're taught through the guild what attacks will be most helpful in a team situation early on. Additionally we are then trained in an arena room, where we can practice getting off our combos.

Lately, this trend has spread into Spinesreach. We practice together and learn what things work best with the other classes. A lot of times, in early combat, I was told your job is X. We will call it in web to you and you do X. This is all you are to do. At first it started with hooking to enable proneing, later it became skewer. Then it became razing shields. After a few months of this coaching I was able to assess the situation and respond on my own.

Perhaps taking time to do this and learning what skills one can do to enable other classes is a good way to change that trend.

Going to guess you were talking to me and just misspelled my name.

1. As far as I know there is no other guild that -requires- helping at lessers to get GR3.

2. My entire offense is changed depending on who we are fighting in what class and what class we have with us. (That took a lot of time to work out by the way.)

3. Most people, in general in Enorian anyways, would rather RP, idle, or deal with city matters than work on offensive stuff. There are a few that you can always talk to -if- you track them down. That list includes @Saybre, @Daskalos, and @Belgarion just off the top of my head.

Now should the lifer guilds start requiring assistance at lessers to hit GR3 I'm quite sure there would be either a mass exodus to Spines/Loch or a crapload of new fighters on the Lifer side.

Also, speaking from my point of view. I may not know -everything- that a class does, or what skills are required for what, but generally after sitting down with someone that mains the class I can help come up with minor offensive changes. I don't have the skill to code it to save my life, but I have theorycrafting down to a science.

Xiuhcoatl · October 2013

Just a suggestion, if you guys love transparency go to Star Citizen, but be prepared to get a new computer. Does requirements.

Aetolia by nature isn't going to be transparent, just because there's not enough people getting paid to be transparent. Not only that, if they released a 15 minute video or wrote a 2 page thing of what they did every week, EVERYWON would be bored. There simply isn't enough people playing this, paying money, and the rike to make things happen. I guess the most that happens is when people get uppity and buttmad at each other and the reports start flying left and right like hellsfire. I think we've all been there: I shouldn't have been killed, he's being a poopyhead, that's against the rules, that's unfair.

My problem with the liaison process is that it is entirely too slow. Combat gets boring after a while of the same old same old. I've PK'd as every class besides the new sentinels/shamans/teradrim. Out of those three, I already know the combat flow from fighting them enough times, reading logs, doing combat analysis, and going through skill speeds. Doing that for the past 6 years, gets boring yo.

Angwe · October 2013

Fairly certain combat requirements in lifer guilds would lead to mass revolts and coups.

Irruel · October 2013

Angwe said:

Fairly certain combat requirements in lifer guilds would lead to mass revolts and coups.

Fairly sure they wouldn't?
It's not a massive requirement, just "You must participate in one lesser."
Even someone that is only ever into rp and hates pvp... can and should rp it. And enjoy doing so.

Everyone else? Probably ought to expect it, and be surprised when they are not pushed into trying one out.

Honestly, focus battles are one of the easy ways to get people to try out world pvp. If you require them to participate in x number every week, you'll stir up a shit storm, but a one off to gain recognition in the guild? I'm repeating myself here, but that's RP.

Azton · October 2013

it mainly makes the person aware of combat/curing .. it beats YOU have to have x amount of cures and know how to cure x thing.. and who knows they might like it... plus the award of giving something to they city aswell as guild

Irruel · October 2013

It's an easy way to introduce people to pvp as well, because it isn't 'real' pvp. They tag along with a group and get told that all they need to do is kill eld when told to, touch shield when they are hurting, and use X skill (even if it's just trip or web or something) if players come to fight. They can happily do that with first aid doing their curing, so really, the only reasons they won't have fun are:

1. If the group they're part of is fully of overly ooc (or rude) idiots
2. If the group is led badly (aka the group gets wiped by elds)

Seir · October 2013

I have enough experience from other games to tell you that forcing people to participate in PvP never ends up well.

You have to encourage it, not enforce it.

Draiman · October 2013

Hey, sometimes eld spawn when you're off bal/eq and 1-2 shot the only person on your side who can shackle in the middle of a fight. Not that that has ever happened to me or anything.

Solaria · October 2013

I'll chime in again to agree with @Seir. I've been in enough guilds as a head of novices across three of the IRE games to know that, at least on the 'good' side of the world, you cannot force people to do PK. Some people just don't want to have anything to do with combat, which is fine - it is their choice. So, as @Angwe said, I've seen troves of lifers just being up in arms and quitting before moving forward to do anything PK related - man, at one point -I- actually did that (but the requirements were saying to WIN spars of equal might..and I am not capable enough for that). So, encouragement good - forcing usually bad.

Ciarelle · October 2013

I don't think this is a bad idea and I think it definitely warrents consideration - if you're a member of a guild that actively promotes how keen they are on fighting for whatever reason. I really cannot foresee myself, for instance, ever making it a requirement for promotion in Ascendril that you contribute at a lesser. The guild doesn't have any objectives that require you to be particularly good at fighting, it's definitely not described that way, and we consequently don't get that many people that are actively interested in combat. Furthermore, all of the established fighters who have joined more recently seem to not really give a unicorns about promotion.

We do have an optional requirement whereby you can claim merit points for participating in lessers, but this is one of a number of options and the only person who has ever claimed them, I think, is Teani.

A couple of other thoughts:

1) Lessers = city issues

Perhaps the guilds and the cities cooperate on this and that's great, but it doesn't always work so smoothly, especially when the guild's location and the citizenship of its members are at odds (I'm completely happy to talk about the latter point further in an OOC, constructive fashion either on the forums or in ((tells)) but let's not go there here?).

2) Character level is an issue.

A truenewb isn't necessarily going to be grinding through the levels pre-GR3. Maybe they will, maybe they won't, but different people have different priorities and even just killing the elds at lessers can be pretty rough.

3) Not everyone actually wants to PK.

This thread seems to be about attracting more people to PK but I think it's worth remembering when we brainstorm solutions to this that not everybody wants to join in. I think a lot of people find it daunting, a lot of people maybe want to but don't know how, but I'm honestly going to feel dubious about any suggestion that it's a requirement for X, Y or Z because it's only one aspect of the game. Make it more attractive, sure, but don't force people into it.

Edit: Clearly, I need to refresh before posting.

Mastema · October 2013

It all comes down to the philosophy and psychology of the player. The Carnifex attracts people who like the military style of rp and the more darker savagery of things. This alone means that the vast majority of its new players are already in the mindset of wanting to learn to fight from the moment they join. And the rp style of training and "real world" pk lessons form the bases of the guild experience they are drawn towards. Of course there will always be people who choose not to fight, but the option is there, and is nurtured when the opportunity arises. In other guilds the player psychology is not one geared towards fighting, violence or stringent codes of brutality and so they often gravitate towards guilds less incline to attract fighters. Having said that all guilds should find a way that fits their players philosophy of game play, otherwise they will lose those few who do desire to fight.

Teani · October 2013

I actually think adding a simple combat requirement for guilds is a really good idea. It doesn't have to be continuously, but rather participate one time to get a taste of it. Even Sessizlik, who is a semi-pacifist goes to them!

Areka · October 2013

That just needs to be paired with the guild's ability to offer combat support and guidance. That's one of the projects I've had the boys working on for Temps, how noobs with limited skills can be helpful in combat, so we can start working that in. The guides and tips are really awesome so far, I'm really happy with the work @saybre (who has really made some invaluable helps and knowledge base) and @cole have done. @izlude's also working on an overarching guide book, which will be a nice addition for the library.

Minarael · October 2013

There definitely needs to be stepping stones into combat. For folks who have never done it before, it can be intensely overwhelming. IRE does not do a good job of creating a tiered system for PK that lets people get their feet wet and learn gradually. You pretty much just throw yourself in the deep end and flail about till you work stuff out.

We can sort of, kind of mimic that easing by doing the things the Templar's have been working on. We are trying to provide avenues for entry into conflict that don't require someone to be tritrans/survival/vision/arti''d out the wazoo. Giving folks an idea of basic ways they can be helpful so they can jump in, offering them tons of advice and opportunities to learn in a less intense environment than a lesser or wartime conflict can help alleviate the initial flailing somewhat. Still going to be flailing, still going to be a game of who has the better coding skills/ability to buy better coding skills and artifacts, but it -at least- gets people the chance to participate.

While everyone may not want to PK, I think it's absolutely reasonable to expect that nearly everyone has at least a great enough understanding that they can at least -help- if they get the urge. I think a lot of folks desire to -not- PK has more to do with the learning curve and the general atmosphere that often surrounds it than with a desire to avoid pvp in general. The learning curve sucks, the coding isn't fun for a lot of us, and it is extremely discouraging to face negative attitudes when you are in the flailing state of learning.

I say this as someone who actually -really- enjoys pk, but didn't learn for years because my initial attempts were frustrating both on the player attitude end and the coding end, and I ducked out of active engagement in pk because of player attitudes (to be fair, in Imperian, which is an incredibly vitriolic place sometimes).

I'm not going to name names, but I was told in absolutely -blunt- terms that any sort of tiered combat training program established within one of the guilds in Aetolia was 'hand-holding' and anyone who wanted that extra help to learn to fight was essentially a baby and didn't deserve to be coddled. That's almost word for word what was said to me. That attitude, right there, is why we have so many non-comms.

Edit - The fact that lots more people would participate if they had the chance is evidenced by the introduction of Whyte's system in Imperian. Whyte's is here in Aetolia in the form of the mudbot mapper, but in Imperian it was both a mapper and a pretty high quality healing system offered up completely for free. It had a few small issues, but it was a lot better than almost any other free system available. Plus, it was pretty intuitive and simple to use. Almost immediately, the number of people engaged in pk jumped. It -really- upset the old school pk'ers who felt that it was ridiculous that people could play in that aspect of the game without putting in the blood, sweat, and tears of curing coding. But! It did open up a whole new side of the game to a ton of people who -had- the interest, but not the coding chops or desire to learn or fork out credits. To me, it's pretty ridiculous that such a major aspect of the game is all but closed off to a pretty large portion of it.

Sessizlik · October 2013

Sessi, who refuses to harm any living being with two or four legs, does go to lessers whenever an opportunity arise. However, it's Always on her own terms. If she extracts a lesser on her own and the enemy comes, she runs as soon as she is hit. If she is in a Group, she uses the few 'non-harmful' skills she knows, like transfix, degrade, web tattoos, things like that. I want to make it clear though that it is Always on -her- terms. She will never be talked into actually doing physical harm with her staff. Sessi being a semi-pacifist is the best decision I have made since I started playing Aetolia. I can finally -enjoy- combat, without feeling any pressure of knowing exactly how things work or getting yelled at for messing up, because people now know that she doesn't really fight.

I made Sessizlik like this for two reasons.

1. Non-coms are less likely to be 'forced' into combat. If you are a known combatant, you will be asked to come help with fights, or help hold a position, or, as it were during the war system, spend hours and hours moving and protecting troops. I, as a player, don't find that fun. Ylem is fun, combat every now and then is fun, but to have it all the time, along with expectation to Always be available, it's just not for me.

2. Systems confuse the pit out of me. I can't code to save my Life. I know there are some great systems out there, both for free and for sale, but there's Always Changes needed to be made, or bugs needed to be fixed, or updates needed to be put in. Systems are hard work, which, in my Eyes, mean that being a combatant is hard work! I play Aetolia because it's a fun rp game, with loads of Amazing people who can make me laugh and cry and get angry (in a good way). I don't do it to study afflictions, or code, or miss out on things I do find fun, because I am too busy making that one trigger work that got me killed at a lesser.

When it comes to the whole "how some people treat other people" thing, yes. That happens. I have seen it on many of my alts, and mostly on the Light side. I Always get the impression that some people think they are better than others, because they have the bestest system and a few hundred artifacts (give or take <.<). It's not easy even trying when people belittle you, and that's why I sortof gave up on the whole thing.

This was probably a bit of derail, but I just wanted to get a few Points out there.

I do combat on my terms and would probably never ever advance if it was a requirement in a Guild, at least not with Sessi.

What makes most a good combatant is not only artifacts, but a smashing system, and systems require a lot to work properly.

Ylem is awesome for those who just enjoy spontaneous combat, like myself. I used to take dying really serious, before Sessi, but these days, I can die at a lesser without feeling bad about it.

People talking down to other people will make newbies/inept coders/inept fighters give up. Sometimes hard Words and hard work is just not Worth it in a game.

Stathan · October 2013

Sessizlik said:

People talking down to other people will make newbies/inept coders/inept fighters give up. Sometimes hard Words and hard work is just not Worth it in a game.

This all day long. Being "thick skinned" as it's been considered a few times about liaisons and so forth throughout this thread doesn't mean you have to sit there and take being berated because X person got killed because -you- didn't realize you could do Y attack and they suffered because of it.

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