PK

Seir · October 2013

I, too, was told (likely by the same liaison) that I know nothing about combat.

Arbre · October 2013

You both realize that even with hand-picking liaisons, it's not gonna be perfect, right? Don't be biased against an entire system just because one person is doing it wrong.

Seir · October 2013

We weren't basing the faults of the system on one person. It was merely an example. I made my case in an earlier post as to why the system doesn't work.

Oleis · October 2013

As much as I love transparency (and seriously, guys, it's something I swear by), I think there's a lot of grass-is-greener going on here. As someone very familiar with Imperian's classlead system, let me tell you that it has its very own set of issues. What I appreciate about our liaison system is that while there is most certainly subtle bias among each of the liaisons, I'm already aware of how I need to filter the opinions of each one. With the playerbase at large commenting, the ratio of helpful comments plummets dramatically.

Ultimately, we make our decisions based on what we think is best for the game, and the same principle is true of combat balance in all IRE games. The liaisons can say their piece, but we're making the final decision. Almost always, the thing we implement is a combination of the original report and liaison improvements, not a hard break in one direction or the other. In this most recent liaison round, I can't think of a single report where the administrative team's initial reaction was completely opposite that of the liaison team's, but I can name at least five where liaison discussion made the end result infinitely better with less trial and error on my part.

Areka · October 2013

Is there a code of conduct for liaisons/reports? I know I've been leery of submitting things, due to the uninformative and snarky one-liners previous reports were given.

Oleis · October 2013

Do you mean in terms of administrative response approving or denying the report? I can't speak for previous liaison heads, but I would consider it unacceptable for you to get a rude or inadequate response to a report you've submitted. Thankfully, I'm confident that wouldn't be a problem with the current group we've got.

Seir · October 2013

Oleis said:

As much as I love transparency (and seriously, guys, it's something I swear by), I think there's a lot of grass-is-greener going on here. As someone very familiar with Imperian's classlead system, let me tell you that it has its very own set of issues. What I appreciate about our liaison system is that while there is most certainly subtle bias among each of the liaisons, I'm already aware of how I need to filter the opinions of each one. With the playerbase at large commenting, the ratio of helpful comments plummets dramatically.

Ultimately, we make our decisions based on what we think is best for the game, and the same principle is true of combat balance in all IRE games. The liaisons can say their piece, but we're making the final decision. Almost always, the thing we implement is a combination of the original report and liaison improvements, not a hard break in one direction or the other. In this most recent liaison round, I can't think of a single report where the administrative team's initial reaction was completely opposite that of the liaison team's, but I can name at least five where liaison discussion made the end result infinitely better with less trial and error on my part.

An honest answer. While I may not wholly agree with it, it's actually reassuring to a large degree. Yeah, their systems have a fair share of issues, but I think that the pros vastly outweigh the cons. That being said, if game balance does get back on the right track, I would gladly return and withdraw my criticisms of the current system. Sounds like you're aware of it though, as well as the flaws of the system and how to address them, rather than trying to cover it up and explain how my perceptions or the perceptions of others are wrong. Thank you.

Xenia · October 2013

A bit off topic about the liasons, but I wanted to chime in about the group PK stuff. Specifically, I've noticed a trend in Spinesreach, lately, where historically none-coms tapping are joining in on by tapping lessers and being backed by a small group of fighters. They share the web and listen in as we work together. Usually they're soul job is to maintain control of the focus while we fight.

Initially my kneejerk reaction was why is this person here, they're not helping and we could use their help, especially when it felt like the tides were turning. But usually I'm in the underhalls by the time that happens and when I return, I have my gameface back on and leave the attitude.

This has proven to be good because after about three or four times of this happening, the none-com has started to make attempts to learn out of a desire to contribute in the fights. This is an interesting way in getting people involved who typically wouldn't be. I wonder if this happens with the other side at all, none coms are willing to contribute but maybe aren't given the chance to do so in their own time/comfort level.

Irruel · October 2013

Exactly the sort of thing that happens when Moirean is anywhere remotely near an org (anyone and everyone all feeling welcome to pitch in and be useful.)

And with good systems for sale these days (for arguably the first time in Aetolia, which has lagged behind the other IRE muds in that respect for years), those non-coms might even end up getting hooked on pvp.

Setne · October 2013

Oleis said:

I love transparency (and seriously, guys, it's something I swear by)

Irruel said:

Exactly the sort of thing that happens when Moirean is anywhere remotely near an org (anyone and everyone all feeling welcome to pitch in and be useful.)

And with good systems for sale these days (for arguably the first time in Aetolia, which has lagged behind the other IRE muds in that respect for years), those non-coms might even end up getting hooked on pvp.

One of the main hindrances in being more involved in combat for me is the price of systems here compared to say, Lusternia. That's not to say I haven't jumped in and flailed around a couple of times.

Daskalos · October 2013

Oleis said:

Do you mean in terms of administrative response approving or denying the report? I can't speak for previous liaison heads, but I would consider it unacceptable for you to get a rude or inadequate response to a report you've submitted. Thankfully, I'm confident that wouldn't be a problem with the current group we've got.

It used to be that until a report was supported\advanced, the admin wouldn't even look at it. The problem lied in you had to kiss liaison's asses to get any sort of support behind the reports. As an example of one of the things I fought, we had a couple of Bloodborn liaisons at one point who basically told me 'no report you submit will ever get advanced because you play a Luminary and they have too much defense to get any new offense' and yet they play one of the tankiest classes in the game (BB) because it can be used in powerful statpack and they had no trouble advancing their own reports to buff BB. As I mentioned before, I had another liaison, after a report was approved and I asked about a different report tell me to 'be thankful for what I got' and that basically they couldn't be bothered. There was a time where Xavin was literally the only liaison we could talk to because of misconceptions or just pure popular opinion. It became a game where anytime a lot of classes would get a buff, they would get 3 nerfs to go with it and we were never explained -why- that had to be.

Now, don't get me wrong, I haven't had a report rejected the last two cycles, and generally am happier now than I have been in the past, but I know I look at the liaisons and see 2 in Duiran, 1 inactive in Enorian, and 3 in Loch\Reach. I know a -lot- of people in Enorian, whether justified or not, don't want to go to Ezalor or Ilyon or Moirean to discuss stuff. This last round, if Moirean hadn't sought me out to ask me questions about stuff I submitted, I'm not sure stuff would of been approved.

I'm a statistical outlier, in that I have every artifact known to man. If there's a combination that can be had, I have it, and I see the abuse usually before it can happen. Yes, I use Templar a bit right now, but for fun combat I generally go for retributions and only switch to the warhammer in the event the opponent is trying to damage me out and I need to finish the fight quickly (because Templars are by far the squishiest class I've ever played and I used monk and zealot as my main classes for a while there).

If the purpose of the liaison system is to be about commenting, why not then allow the general public to 'support' or 'unsupport' a liaison report (with a forced comment attached explaining the vote)? As I said before, you'll still end up with your current group as your 'testers' but you'll be including a wider range of people, because right now even though the system allows for public commenting, unless something has changed, it still relies on a select few people driving the 'advanced' to be considered.

Just some thoughts. I think there have been a few changes made wholesale to the game over the last year or two (such as warmth being reduced) that have affected things such as tankiness across the board that were never accounted for in the aftermath of those changes. I think that is part of why we're seeing the issue of artifact scaling now, more than ever.

All in all, generally happy, but don't love the design of the overall system because while so far I trust you (and, honestly, I got along great with Keroc as well) I feel that it could be a more inclusive system by splitting off the reporting process and making it a lot more transparent and then turning the testing process into a closed loop that allows for real world application, because while theorycraft is nice and all, it doesn't always pan out in the real world. According to theorycraft, I should be able to ash soft lock and judge someone before they can recover equilibrium from a disrupt. In the real world, rebounding, passive paralysis and prones from ents, and a half dozen other things make this not feasible (in that, other than testing against Dato, I've never actually pulled it off despite attempting it numerous times). Classes have too many built in healing skills. And perhaps that's something to look at as well, we're always big on calculating aff rates, but has anyone ever calculated each classes heal rate to see how each class can cure?

Many times, reports would be approved and never be coded in even if they were quality of life changes (like Luminary maces lasting for 6 months instead of per login more in line with dhurives. [since you can get d\c'd mid-fight and come back with no mace with the current system]).

Areka · October 2013

I mean in the reason listed when a report is rejected (the only other information we can see when it comes to reports, outside of what we add). My first and only reports with the system were given really unhelpful and dismissive one-liners. As an example, after getting through the first round, one was rejected with, "Yeah, let's not and keep it for Carnifex," (Temp skills had been mechanically locked with what weapon could be used with what attack with old forging, since some damage scaling was ridiculous. With the advent of weapon families and new forging, I wanted to see if we could get this reversed, so that we could DSW with a halberd or STRIKE with a spear or trident with a shield, etc, as now a halberd is the same as a bastard and a spear is the same as a shortsword, to return some of our 'weapon master' flavour without need of masteries and give back some purpose to paying for proficiencies).

That was the most helpful of rejections from that round. If keeping the flavour of weapons separated was a concern, a "We'd like to keep Templar's iconic weapons to these handful alone, the initial Weapon Master premise spread the class too thin." would have been far more helpful, even if short.

This frustration gets compounded when we get significant class changes while I've been GM, I don't understand all of what is going on with it, and get people in the guild asking me and I have no answer for them, all the while I can't obtain a dialogue with folk involved or knowledgeable in the changes enough to improve my understanding so I can help my folk out.

Communication trends being a primary issue here (in general with the Aet community).

Ezalor · October 2013

That's your own fault Daskalos. I've had tons of lifers approach me to discuss their class (more than darkies actually) and I've freely given them tips on how to play it as well as listened to their ideas about their classes. The most successful lifer combat set (Tripwire + Kaeus Templar) was something I helped set up and improve.

I have been harsh in the past with people that whine baselessly and will continue to be harsh because it very much irks me when people blindly lash out without knowing what they are really talking about. That doesn't mean I'll completely shut out or disregard people; on the contrary, I've helped tons of lifers I've had conflicts with in PvP improve their stuff. I even talk to you sometimes about your classes and how to use them better, albeit briefly. The reasons I don't willingly and freely help you are that 1) I tried once and all you did was argue back about how I didn't know what I was talking about, 2) I've seen you be a ridiculously sore winner, which I have no intention of helping out, and 3) despite all your protests or justification otherwise, you -do- revert to simple damage damage damage in 95% of fights rather than playing the classes properly. You've even posted many times about how you don't want to bother tryharding in combat. Despite all this, if you want to constructively talk about your class I am willing to do so and have done so.

Templars being squishy is a myth. It is quite simple to achieve 52/52 physical audit on them (54/54 with protection artifact) which is in line with the highest audits in the game. Even higher actually now that you have Epicurus. There is a minor offensive sacrifice to it but the audit benefit far outstrips what you get from an offensive aura. I don't know where people got this idea that pestilence aura is a must-have, but if you think about it and understand how the class works you'll see that it's actually arguably worse as an aura. And this is exactly the type of behaviour I hate - people will whine, and whine, and whine, without actually thinking about how to address the issue. Without even -trying- to think of how to address the issue. Granted I know you run purity aura to bash people to death and not pestilence, but that's a playstyle that shouldn't be possible in the first place and not how the class was intended.

Areka, I've never had you ask me anything about Templar. I have a Templar in your guild (though granted I haven't been on him much lately) and I freely explain the class to anyone who asks me about it, which was quite a few people when I took that alt out and fought with it. If you ask Kaeus or Valingar or Belgarion (or many others), people who actually put a lot of thought and understanding into their classes, they would be able to tell you as well. They are great guys that I am sure would be happy to help. Communication issues do exist but it's a two-way street, and I would offer that you simply haven't been talking to the right people.

The liaisons were appointed for a reason and I get that some of you don't like the fact that someone else was appointed above you, but for the most part we actually know what we are doing. That doesn't mean the crop's perfect; there are definitely biases among people and some holes in knowledge (as much as I know about aff classes and how to manipulate them, my knowledge on salve classes is mediocre for example), as well as a vast disparity in activity levels, combat or otherwise, among the liaisons. But in my honest opinion it is a -far- more effective system than allowing just anyone to shape the balance of PK to a large degree. Don't forget that it wasn't all that long ago that people were up in arms about Shamans (and actually some of the people pushing for an open system in this thread are the same ones who whined about Shamans), but now that they're actually understood better people can handle them fine without the class being nerfed.

All that said I still agree that liaison comments being public is a good thing. There have been a few instances where reports have been misunderstood by the liaisons and the report subsequently rejected or implemented wrongly. This could be avoided by allowing the submitter to see and respond to the discussion ongoing about their report.

Oleis · October 2013

@Daskalos

I definitely see where you're coming from, and I'll start by agreeing that it would be nice to have an active liaison from Enorian. If we get to a point where we're re-evaluating our team, we might just reach out to a couple people whom we can trust to be approachable and even-handed. But I want to re-emphasize that Liaisons are no longer a filter of what reports we see vs. what reports we don't see. We assess every single submitted report and almost universally have brief discussions before any liaison support/abstention is decided, much less an administrative response. I think we need to give this setup (as this particular arrangement of variables is brand new) another couple of cycles before we even consider changes. So far, I'm fond of it. I would much rather have five biased advisers than 150 biased hecklers.

@Areka

Reading those examples made my blood pressure rise just a little bit. As a developer, it's so easy to get focused on our tangible goals (combat balance, new features) that we forget how important it is to also inform everyone of our goals and the motivations behind them. This manifests in outdated help files, outdated AB files, and a few hundred bugs that we hopefully just nuked.

You've got my 100% commitment to helpful, detailed response messages, whether we've got 10 reports or 110. We want everyone filing reports now during liaison cycles, and it's crucial that everyone with an opinion feels comfortable sharing it. If you ever feel like this has been violated, please come straight to me.

Damonicus · October 2013

Maybe for the GM's they should be yanked up or even messaged when a large change is about to happen to them. That way they are prepared to let their people know what has happened. Especially mechanical changes. Events of course are surprises for those that are awake, but when such a large scale of class skills change when the GM wakes they are flooded with tells and messages from all of their guild.

Maybe even a part of the leaders news that HEY AREKA we are going to give you guys the ability to use BOOMSTICKS. Perprare yourselves.

Areka · October 2013

@Ezalor - I know I haven't asked you and I'm not claiming to have. I threw my hands up after the previous experiences (when we lost our primary bashing ability right before a great hunt, was told another was now viable and that the god was doing X DPS with it, but none of our tests were providing that output. It took quite a bit of prodding/asking/nagging to just get the basic information that they managed it with Dexterous statpack (which we can't test unless we have the 1k artifact or spend 100cr per hop to figure out which is giving those results) and 16 str, still don't know what the weapon stats were. This was over a RL year ago, and the combine experiences put enough of a bad taste in my mouth to stop bothering and just have Belgarion and Saybre handle combat things.

@Oleis - thank you, more than those two words properly express.

EDIT EDIT: For liaison cycles (I know I small-idea'd this as well, sorry for the duplication) - could we get a global announce (like city announcements or guild announcements) for when liaison submission's open? It's really easy to lose track of the newsposts.

Ezalor · October 2013

I can understand that Areka, but it's a whole new group now all the way up to the administrative level. Try asking now! From my experience with the Divine alone, they are all fantastic about getting back to stuff or handling inquiries.

Oleis · October 2013

@Damonicus - That's a great idea. A more personal briefing would be a lot more helpful than getting the helpfile at the same time as the rest of the world. I'll put this into practice next time we have some changes.

@Areka - You're so welcome. All I can hope is that I'm doing right by you guys. I'll be sure to make special notice of the liaison round, including deadlines, next time we do a cycle.

Daskalos · October 2013

Ezalor said:

That's your own fault Daskalos. I've had tons of lifers approach me to discuss their class (more than darkies actually) and I've freely given them tips on how to play it as well as listened to their ideas about their classes. The most successful lifer combat set (Tripwire + Kaeus Templar) was something I helped set up and improve.

I have been harsh in the past with people that whine baselessly and will continue to be harsh because it very much irks me when people blindly lash out without knowing what they are really talking about. That doesn't mean I'll completely shut out or disregard people; on the contrary, I've helped tons of lifers I've had conflicts with in PvP improve their stuff. I even talk to you sometimes about your classes and how to use them better, albeit briefly. The reasons I don't willingly and freely help you are that 1) I tried once and all you did was argue back about how I didn't know what I was talking about, 2) I've seen you be a ridiculously sore winner, which I have no intention of helping out, and 3) despite all your protests or justification otherwise, you -do- revert to simple damage damage damage in 95% of fights rather than playing the classes properly. You've even posted many times about how you don't want to bother tryharding in combat. Despite all this, if you want to constructively talk about your class I am willing to do so and have done so.

Templars being squishy is a myth. It is quite simple to achieve 52/52 physical audit on them (54/54 with protection artifact) which is in-line with the highest audits in the game. Even higher actually now that you have Epicurus. There is a minor offensive sacrifice to it but the audit benefit far outstrips what you get from an offensive aura. I don't know where people got this idea that pestilence aura is a must-have, but if you think about it and understand how the class works you'll see that it's actually arguably worse as an aura. And this is exactly the type of behaviour I hate - people will whine, and whine, and whine, without actually thinking about how to address the issue. Without even -trying- to think of how to address the issue. Granted I know you run purity aura to bash people to death and not pestilence, but that's a playstyle that shouldn't be possible in the first place and not how the class was intended.

Areka, I've never had you ask me anything about Templar. I have a Templar in your guild (though granted I haven't been on him much lately) and I freely explain the class to anyone who asks me about it, which was quite a few people when I took that alt out and fought with it. If you ask Kaeus or Valingar, people who actually put a lot of thought and understanding into their classes, they would be able to tell you as well. Both are great guys that I am sure would be happy to help. Communication issues do exist but it's a two-way street, and I would offer that you simply haven't been talking to the right people.

The liaisons were appointed for a reason and I get that some of you don't like the fact that someone else was appointed above you, but for the most part we actually know what we are doing. That doesn't mean the crop's perfect; there are definitely biases among people and some holes in knowledge (as much as I know about aff classes and how to manipulate them, my knowledge on salve classes is mediocre for example), as well as a vast disparity in activity levels, combat or otherwise, among the liaisons. But in my honest opinion it is a -far- more effective system than allowing just anyone to shape the balance of PK to a large degree. Don't forget that it wasn't all that long ago that people were up in arms about Shamans (and actually some of the people pushing for an open system in this thread are the same ones who whined about Shamans), but now that they're actually understood better people can handle them fine without the class being nerfed.

All that said I still agree that liaison comments being public is a good thing. There have been a few instances where reports have been misunderstood by the liaisons and the report subsequently rejected or implemented wrongly. This could be avoided by allowing the submitter to see and respond to the discussion ongoing about their report.

When I run Templar aff route, I'm running pestilence aura with blessing\protection\cleansing as my blessings. I use armor forged by Areka that is in the 52\52 range, plus I have the protection artifact. I run damage on -you- when we fight because I'm only getting one hit in every 2 or 3 rounds due to paralysis\pacifism\epilepsy\berserking stacking and so there's no way to effectively build an affliction stack as I'm currently setup. Working on that

. I've had many discussions with both Kaeus and Belgarion about Templar. My goal is to -eventually- setup a basic offense for every class on the life side and distribute it freely so that more people are involved in combat. Areka has my basic Templar, some others have my Luminary. I need to do a rewrite of several of them to make them easier to update, I just haven't had the time.

Epicurus also doesn't stack with blessings (or at least, isn't supposed to). Our disagreement was that I believe wise is a better route for Luminary and you believe Dexterous is. My belief is that there are more skills like tfix, heatwave, dazzle, et cetera, that are eq based that while the 'main' attack is a touch faster with dexterous, the peripheral stuff (including removing rebounding with evoke fire) is faster with wise. When I disagreed, you said I knew nothing about combat and was an idiot. I'm sorry, but I don't feel a liaison should act that way - you weren't even willing to consider an opposing point of view, from someone who played the class. There are -definite- advantages to being dexterous, but when I run my offense, I get more kills in wise than dexterous using the exact same script. That's real world application, not just theory-craft. You say templars being squishy is a myth? Tell me, do you find it easier to bash on Ezalor or the aforementioned Templar? Saybre uses Syssin for bashing because he survives better than Templar. Again, real world applications, not just theorycraft. The tankiness isn't in the physical department (though when you hit me with a bastard you did almost 2000 to me in Templar) but in the elemental. It's the across the board damage reducers that are gone and all this elemental\magical damage that is hard to fight against. 2 Dopplegangers can ranged decay me to death faster than I can heal, even using ABSORB BLESSING for a health boost.

Not trying to start an argument, but at some point people using the skills should be listened to, at least a little bit.

@Oleis: Have you considered an anonymous 'liaison channel' where people can ask questions, get feedback, et cetera? I think too often opinions are improperly colored by the person asking the question. As an example, using a previous iteration, people believed that Luminaries had too much tankiness (which they did) but that the offense was fine because I got kills with it. I, of course, was an outlier with artifacts and not many people got kills. In an effort to prove that point, I left the class and joined the Daru. Bowing to outside pressure, the Luminaries put in a ton of self-nerfs to remove passive healing tankiness (discharge, revit rite, healing rite) without any offensive tradeoffs. The class then was unplayable until Macian came along almost a RL year later and got some offensive stuff put in (the shield\symbol system that has evolved into current).

Luminaries are still tanky, but nowhere like we were before, and even in this last round we traded Angel Care\Purity Gem Stacking for some new afflictions in chasten. We're great at putting afflictions on you, but no way to capitalize on it. MindBurrow was given to the BB and it's basically a better overwhelm (instead of blackout + bleeding to force mana usage, it just goes straight to a mana drain) that doesn't require prone (and right now, you can just put blindness at the top of your cure stack and a Luminary will never kill you unless they get you with straight damage).

Ezalor · October 2013

I agree that my response then wasn't entirely called for, but I also wasn't a liaison then. Pestilence aura is bad because it is a focus aff, so regardless of whether or not it is hidden it is going to be focused away (Templars don't press focus affs actively, or at least shouldn't, since they don't have access to impatience). That means against most systems unhidden pestilence is actually -better- because the system will automatically recognize the line as a hidden and therefore waste more than one curing balance to address it and the aff view that comes. There is pretty much no point at all to using pestilence as an aura over protection. You -WANT- them to eat an herb and waste their herb balance to address pestilence affs because that allows your more important venoms to go through. In that sense making them hidden is entirely counter-productive. Which is, again, quite obvious when some thought is given to it but people seem unwilling to think about their skills.

As far as bashing I did absolutely fine in Tiyen on Templar and that was pre-endgame. The comparison between Ezalor and my alt is just silly, considering I am artifacted to the teeth on Ezalor and not even trans out my minis on my alt. Without any artifacts I have just as much trouble bashing on Bloodborn as on Templar (more actually since Templars kill way faster).

You never fought me on Templar back when bastard swords were viable on Bloodborn, so that part is simply untrue. As far as your argument that "the people using the skills should be listened to" I've found quite a bit of success on my Templar and I know what they can do just fine. I've put it into application (not using pestilence as an aura) and found it to be vastly superior. I do agree with the idea, though, and that is why people are able to submit liaison reports themselves.

The fact that people melt in teamfights has nothing to do with Templar and everything to do with the broken scaling of artifacts. Any class at all would die to it.

Templars can get one of the highest physical audits and while they don't have any special elemental audits, very few classes do. So tell me again where this perceived squishiness is coming from? Refusal to use protection aura, when it is by far the best choice, is a user error, not a class one. With the amazing hinder of the offense and the above average audit I would say Templars are probably one of the best at avoiding damage in 1v1s. I've survived through your Luminary lightning spam just fine with no points at all in galvanism and no artifacts.

As far as your statement that Luminaries are unable to capitalize on any affs, that was true but isn't now. You can output 2 kelp affs at once or paralysis + kelp aff. The uses should be obvious if, again, some thought is given to how to play the class.

Valdus · October 2013

As a sidenote, we did a bit of number crunching and decided to look at the average and maximum audits across all of the classes. Since this function relies on gathering averages from the online playerbase, I won't draw any conclusions from it - especially not yet, anything less than 30 is going to be skewed - but so far, looking at the spread between Syssin and Templar, I'm not sure I'm seeing where Syssin is ending up tankier. Templar has better access to active and passive healing, as well, so I'm not sure where this perception is coming from.

Syssin (Sample size: 5)
         Cut     Blunt   Magic   Fire    Cold    Elec    Poison Psychic Asphyx
Average: 27      27      36      39      38      33      27      23      28
Highest: 40      36      50      50      50      43      43      36      36

Templar (Sample size: 6)
         Cut     Blunt   Magic   Fire    Cold    Elec    Poison Psychic Asphyx
Average: 31      31      39      39      41      32      33      31      33
Highest: 55      55      59      56      56      43      47      43      43

Is Sacrifice being factored in? Using Sacrifice gives the Templar four hits in a round (and therefore four chances to critically hit), just with DSK/DSW, but in exchange it does a fair bit of damage to the Templar. If this is where the perceived squishiness is coming from, I would suggest giving it a try without using sacrifice and see where it lines up, for comparison.

Ezalor · October 2013

The Syssin highest is a bit low too, 51/51 physical is attainable. Just to add to the point of people not optimizing, most Syssin are running around with a dirk in one hand and a whip in the other and complaining that Syssin are squishy. Weaponbelts make it possible to wield a shield and simply secure/wield the dirk and whip as necessary, which is an 11% (huge) audit boost with an artifact shield.

A lot of the myths and "common knowledge" floating around about classes simply come from people not optimizing their class, whether through laziness or no previous need to.

Daskalos · October 2013

@Valdus - That's a question for @Saybre. I know he prefers Syssin when bashing Xaanhal, but I personally bash in Luminary. That's why I used that comparison. Also, as for active healing, am I missing something other than aura absorb which removes an aura (thus reducing tankiness)? I also don't know at sacrifice being factored in or not, and haven't run the numbers, but I had been lead to believe that Templar bashing DPS was crap compared to other classes unless you use sacrifice. Again, however, I don't bash in Templar so don't rightfully know the answer to that. I know in comparison to Luminary that I can basically ignore my health in Luminary with my artifacts while bashing save some big areas, but in Templar I have to be spot on watching every attack in the few times I've actually bashed in Templar, usually killing Eld and the like.

For reference, my Luminary audit, with all my artifacts is:

Cut: 56 Blunt: 49 Magic: 59 Fire: 59, Cold 51, Electric 51: Poison 43 Psychic 28, Asphyx 47.

Maybe there's something not being taken into account in audit for some classes and not others, because on this basis I should be about the same in either class.

@Ezalor - On the topic of Templar, I'm not saying I'm a great fighter. I've been toying with the class a little bit over the last month or so, but that's really it. My comment about people that use the class was about Luminary... and while on the topic of Luminary affs, I haven't played around with the latest changes, so I can't speak to it. I've tried building up the ash stack but so far haven't been able to pull it off. I need to rewrite my entire offense to handle stupidity and when I do that I'll be adding in the kelp stacks to see what happens there.

However, by your own admission, overwhelm is about impossible to pull off as a Luminary if they prioritize blindness as a cure and without overwhelms, Luminaries don't typically kill people (not to mention a lot of people just STAND and SHIELD after an overwhelm, meh!)

Ezalor · October 2013

That is true, overwhelm isn't entirely viable now but locks into hellsight opened up as a very legitimate strategy with hypochondria chasten. It takes some complex managing of angel balance to pull off a lock but it's definitely viable now. It's a different route from the "intended" Luminary one of absolve but I think it'll be quite effective.

Phoenecia · October 2013

Regarding the tankiness of Syssin vs Templar for bashing, I bash as both, and Syssin only appear tankier because you're outright avoiding most of the damage you'd normally be taking through Weaving, but in terms of damage mitigation, Syssin Warding doesn't do nearly as much as Templar auras. Every time an arti'd out the ass Templar dies while bashing (usually Saybre), it's usually because they either aren't paying attention or because they're using Sacrifice. I personally don't bother with using Sacrifice because it's extra damage I don't need to take when I could just rely on critical hits.

When I bash in Syssin, I use Garrote, and I forge my whip to be full damage since my statpack is Poweful and not Dextrous. I also use my buckler to mitigate damage. Having Warding and Weaving up also helps a LOT. And if you're willing to splurge on artifact powers, you can buy a resistance for your buckler too.

Templars also have it really nice because you have the Protection, Healing, and Redemption auras. When I bash as Templar, I usually use Protection as an aura, and then Healing, Redemption, and another aura as blessings; I've never had any problems with tankiness with this aura setup, and I don't own any defense-boosting artifacts, but I rarely ever die. If you use Templar and are complaining about how much damage you're taking, you're probably using Sacrifice while bashing (which I don't think is worth it) or not using the Protection aura as an aura (5% physical and magical damage reduction vs 15% reduction? I'll take the 15%, thank you).

Missari · October 2013

Where do you bash, Phoe?

Phoenecia · October 2013

I can tackle pretty much all of the endgame bashing areas easily enough except for the Volcano, and the only bashing artifact I have is level 2 enhancement.

Missari · October 2013

That just doesn't seem fair. I've got enchance(2), con(2), protection arti, and level 2 health sip ring and I can NOT bash Xanhaal without a blessing. I die to single mobs other than the easy peasy guards out front.

Seir · October 2013

I've read a few of these comments and while this isn't directed at anyone in particular: You don't know as much as you think you know.

If you feel that this is directed at you, then you should probably practice some humility. Goes a long way.

I will say this to both sides, however, in that testing only goes so far and numbers are just one facet of everything. Practical data is achieved by those actively playing the classes and is just as important as crunching numbers.

Edit: And by "actively playing", I'm not referring to going into the liaison server/arena, picking up the class, and hitting someone a few times just to gauge damage from a hit or whatever. These days, if you haven't coded or pieced an offense together through trial-and-error experience wise, you're likely not using the class properly. Again, this is why those who use the class actively have practical data that is as equally important as crunching numbers.

Jensen · October 2013

Missari said:

That just doesn't seem fair. I've got enchance(2), con(2), protection arti, and level 2 health sip ring and I can NOT bash Xanhaal without a blessing. I die to single mobs other than the easy peasy guards out front.

You're in dex stat pack. You squish

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