PK

Macavity · October 2013

I doubt this kind of change would happen, for one when people alt the game has a chance to make money from the potential credits being bought on that new player. Also your suggestion on the Ascendril to Sciomancer switch only works for a short time till they finish the revamp for all classes and remove their connected skills. I think perhaps you meant the classes that counters each other you get a 1:1 ration for switching, but that would be rather difficult to code in so that it is fair. For example do they quit the class, and get the lessons back, but if they join the class that is their counter the lessons are removed and skills are at trans? What about the novice system that is in place, and classing system at GR3 you get class? Is there a time limit for someone to join or gain the counters class skills?

I really think this opens more issues than it does fixing the one this thread was created for. For the tethering I LOVE them, in the face that I do not have lifers using the Teradrim skill set against our side, granted there is one Lifer Teradrim but they are not in any city and to be honest I have yet to see that person logged in anymore. It has also helped in my coding of my system where I have to worry only about the liferside of classes instead of ALL of them and to be honest the way classes have been liaisoned thus far some pairings would be really bad. Like BB/Prea with a Lifer class that can Absolve.

I do not feel that we need to have another system coded in for the sack of balancing this out. If we keep jumping to someone coding in something just to change the way things are going, the player base, I feel, are going to get very lazy and start to expect code to be written to push us into something that we should want to do ourselves.

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I really think its going to take a paradigm shift on the lifer side to band together and say to these individuals that keep putting others down and tell them HEY We do not like this situation, change your attitude or stay out of our groups who are actively trying to get better and support each other. Even go as far as if they ask for assistance at lessers do not support them and shut them completely out. One way or another they will get the hint and adjust. If not then do the lifer side really need them in the first place??

Ilyon · October 2013

I'm rather skeptical about this skill dormancy concept personally - it could work, but it feels like it would encourage people to hop back and forth between sides way too frequently, as well as encourage/reward (with a bigger class pool) not getting invested in either side.

Moirean · October 2013

I am not saying that multiclass is the entire and only problem. I think it's one (big) facet of it. I mentioned other potential options, to illustrate things admin can do to help. Big-name PKers willing to lead and train play a huge role in a city's combat scene, which is why I emphasized multiclass so much. See my second to last paragraph - I'm really addressing the issue of top-tier PKers with the discussion about multiclass.

Now, aside from drawing the top-level people in (and I really think making this easier trickles down to help the entire PK scene of an org), there are definitely things that can be done to encourage things from the bottom-up.

On the whole, players have less power in IRE games to build their org's fundamental strength - in Avalon, for example, new players were basically cityless and active PR work let people cherrypick potential new PKers. In IRE, the archetypes do the selling, not the players (at least, until someone re-rolls an alt), so from the very start we already have to work with a skewed distribution based on things out of our control. Templars will often appeal to different player-types than Sciomancers, Vampires attract different outlooks than Luminaries, right out of the gate and it's not within our scope of gameplay as players to influence this initial decision. So, I think we face a SOMEWHAT hard task to build up a PK scene, since we don't have much control over who we get, but that doesn't mean it can't be done - and I'd love to see lifers do it. Heck, half of me wants to go back and try to revive it, but I luff Spines (and all my classes) too much.

If it's any help at all, I'll detail out the process I used in Avalon to create a city of PKers from a ghost town of an org, building an army of fighters out of truenewbs and non-comms. If @malak ever browsed forums he could confirm that he joined that game as a truenewb and, well, he's Malak now. Obviously these are only examples and the org/game changes how the stuff is applied, but maybe my trial and errors over several years over there can help things out here. Bear in mind that Avalon is far less RP-based, so it was a lot easier to use OOC stuff. I'm not trying to brag or tell people this is the best method - this is merely what I did in the past. A lot of it worked. Some of it didn't. Hopefully my experience can be helpful.

Make knowledge accessible. Step one was ensuring information was easy to get in a game where information was a commodity. There weren't game forums, so I created private city forums (they are mostly public these days and fairly old, feel free to peek at them if you are bored: http://thakria.fr.yuku.com/) and populated them with TONS of information. This immediately increased the retention rates of novices we got in our city and raised the overall level of citizen awareness about mechanics in the game. It also helped establish camaraderie among the citizens. In Aetolia, the clan system is a great way to emulate this sort of thing - not just with help scrolls, but also with active chatter. People get information AND they feel involved.
Reward practice. My second step was to basically bribe people to learn PK. I literally paid them IG gold from the city coffers to post combat logs on the forums - the caveat was they had to include an analysis with the log, detailing how they did well/poorly/changes for the future/etc. I then also paid IG money to people who provided THOUGHTFUL analysis of other people's logs - basically I was bribing them to create a dialogue about PK, and in the process they learned how to analyse fights and figure out tactics. This worked as a good motivator because gold in Avalon was not easy to come by, so by posting and commenting on logs, they could bypass grinding gold quests and focus on more fun stuff like PK. An Aetolian version of this might reward credits in exchange for discussions on a news board or with a PK elder. TBH, I've struggled trying to find ways to implement something like this in Aet - you want to reward people, but making them post logs is really a meh thing to reward with IC stuff...but log analysis REALLY is a useful tool for someone learning to fight. I think finding a good way to translate this to Aetolia could be really helpful, but I haven't really found a way myself, yet.
Provide resources. I helped citizens code tons of things, and even built a basic zmud UI for new players to use. I was generous with city funds to help fighters out with equipment. I ensured they were stocked with curatives and venoms. Etc. This is actually a TON easier in Aetolia, due to things like KLL and our forums, and the ease with which you can craft items. PK can be expensive and time consuming to stay ready for, but helping people foot the bill not only makes it easier for them to get involved, it shows them that you VALUE their involvement.
Integrate PK into the city's culture. I focused on making PK - and being GOOD at PK - something the citizens would aspire to. I did things ranging from the novice level (eg giving them a city task to go fight a spar to earn some vital equipment) up to the very fundamentals of the city's outlook (eg force citizens to settle their disputes via PK). PK became integrated into the city's environment, instead of an isolated thing that happened separate from everything else. In Aetolia, I've tried to echo this; It can be something simple like chatting about PK ICly over an org channel to something big like integrating it into progression. In Carnifex, for example, members are mandated to attend 3 lessers to earn class. This gets them involved in PK, introduces them to citymates and other PKers, usually gets them listening to the research clan, etc.
Pick fights. Especially fights that you might win. The value of this really can't be understated. Rolling out as a team to fight together builds unity, gets people practicing and can be really fun! Most important is to try to pick fights that you have at least a moderate shot of winning (or doing well at before your eventual loss) We'd set up camp in enemy cities - at the start of my work, when there weren't many of us, we'd do it during non-peak hours, so there'd definitely be some action, but my newbs wouldn't get rolled by Daskalos-types. In Aetolia, this could be something like starting a guild rivalry for smaller-scale combat. Lessers get really out of hand, number-wise, and if that's the only PK experience people are having, they are going to end up discouraged.
Find victories and learn from defeat. Even when we were losing, I'd find ways to celebrate stuff we'd done in the course of that defeat. "We got over half of that lesser, guys!" or "Wow, that was good coordination on your ranged attacks" etc - every fight has elements where people did well, so build a shit sandwich with those as the bread. The meat then becomes constructive criticism of how to improve why you lost, for the next time. Don't just throw away potential to improve by citing "bigger numbers" or "OP skills" - there is always something that can be taken away from a loss.
Lead by example. Someone in authority needs to be involved in PK if you want citizens to get involved as well. That doesn't necessarily mean the GM or CL needs to be that person - they can find proxy "battlemasters" but there needs to be someone who represents the leadership down there in the trenches, or the entire attempt to build a PK scene will crumble. Why should citizens want to bother if the leadership doesn't care?
Emphasize roles. Everyone can be helpful at a team fight. I would get newbies involved by having them doing something as basic as webbing a target. Giving people discrete and individual jobs to tackle in a team situation makes it easier for them to focus on doing their role right, and it helps people learn how they can contribute in a team environment. Train them in various utility things they can do, as well - braziering someone, angel shielding someone under attack, taking down an icewall, etc. Eventually, you won't need to tell people what to do - they'll have learned it, especially if you rotate tasks.
Train leadership. I didn't do this, and my legacy in Avalon is actually a pretty bad one, since the city completely fell apart once I quit playing to come here to Aetolia. I'm trying to spread out authority a lot more these days, having learned my lesson about micromanaging everything for my orgs, and it really needs to be emphasized both on the small-scale and on the large. Teach others the fundamentals of leading - this means they can hop in if the leader dies in a team fight, or step in to take CL if the leader goes MIA.
Recruit. This happens a lot less in IRE games than it did in Avalon, and I think that's partially because of credit costs and tethers and lack of mirror classes. The heavier occurrence of alts likely plays a hand here as well; people often roll a character with a predetermined concept. Still, it's not impossible, and with the emphasis on RP here in Aet, it can be a really engaging and character-changing experience. PKers come in all types, and figuring out what motivates individual fighters can be really valuable. Play on that and try to lure them to your org - maybe they want a fun combat scene of friendly people, maybe they want a place where they can be really valued, maybe they are a newbie eager and bursting with questions. I know I've recruited more than a person or two to my orgs in Aetolia through stuff as simple as merely sparring (or PKing) them and then talking over the fight and how to improve.

Anyways, that's what worked for me in Avalon, in the end, after a few years of learning to lead and tweaking what I did. I've applied a lot of what I learned there to my orgs here, though the results are not as dramatic as they were there. I think, in part, the heavy reliance on systems and coding here creates a bit of a wall in building up a PK scene - after a point, players need to handle building their own system (or buying one), and that sort of stuff is an individual job. I think IRE is also something of a different beast - alts are way more common, and we get a lot of newbies, but have a fairly low retention rate, so it's not as easy to work with individual members (in Avalon, people subscribed, so once someone subbed, you knew they were serious about playing and not just randomly there to check out a free game). I'm still trying to figure out ways to handle that span between players starting and it becoming clear that they are here to stay - this is when I want to be laying the foundations for their org experience (PK included), but it's tiring to do it on the individual level, so I'm playing with guild reqs and city features, trying to find more time-friendly ways to highlight this stuff.

Ok. Long post is long.

Moirean · October 2013

Ilyon said:

I'm rather skeptical about this skill dormancy concept personally - it could work, but it feels like it would encourage people to hop back and forth between sides way too frequently, as well as encourage/reward (with a bigger class pool) not getting invested in either side.

The game functioned for half a decade without hard-coded skill limits, and players policed it with RP. Org hoppers (hai Adia) were mocked or distrusted - heck, I still have people distrusting Moi as a "sidehopper" because she swapped sides all of twice. Could always tag a credit price on making skills dormant/active - it just seems silly to lose up to or over 10k credits.

@macavity: http://dictionary.kids.net.au/word/dormant

Daskalos · October 2013

I've mostly stayed out of this thread, butt I do have a few comments as to why I, personally, got bored with PK, and things I've noticed.

1. Group combat and credit disparity. Even when I manage to muster up as much support as I can, we're typically outnumbered 2:1. It happens all the time. When you can manage to bring up 5 (and 4 of them are low-to-mid-tier combatants) and then 10 artifacted people show up, a very real sense of 'why bother?' permeates the atmosphere. The recent changelog to Sire credits I think will help some going forward, as it was easier to procure credits in game on the dark side than through the life side due to double bonusing. Generally the 'dark' side players are more artifacted than the light side. On the light side, you have 'me' as the 'big artifact whore' but on the Dark side? Alexina, Conner, Mazzion, Ezalor, Dourif just to name a few.

2. Feeling helpless. I like a good one on one fight, but I've been hard pressed to get any. I can play Templar, and beat most people, but all I hear about after that is 'you win because of artifacts' - even if I go the retribution route! Same thing I was told when I played as a Monk and a Daru previously. I generally try to help out anyone that wants help, have written extensive scrolls in the Luminaries on Luminary combat (though a Luminary should never beat another good good combatant for the most part, got a few new tricks I want to try out but haven't tested practically yet to know).

3. For all the 'light side has a vitriolic PK environment rhetoric' comments, I would wager that it's just the same coming from the other side towards us. I've been told that 'I don't work hard enough' and 'you just don't understand combat' by multiple people on the dark side, including a current liaison. I was told by one person that I lose because a certain affliction is too low in my healing order and that's what they exploit. It is, literally, the first thing in the list.

4. I've asked, time and again, for a list of affliction aff rates from each class but this seems to be a closely guarded secret. My only theory is that it will reveal things that certain people don't want revealed, and I don't know the skills of the other side well enough (because I don't alt) to go through and make sure I catch every passive possible in the total aff rate.

5. Hindering skills. As an example, I fought Ezalor the other day as Luminary and managed to get a hit in every 3rd or 4th round. Why? The combination of pacifism and paralysis in a Bloodborn effectively locks me down. There are some things I'm working on, such as spamming through stupidity, that might help so I can ignore that affliction more, but for the most part, BB can stop you could with multiple afflictions at once while maintaining their offense. This doesn't include berserking ticks, epilepsy ticks, et cetera also firing and consuming balance. With Templar I can fight through this because of rage, however, even with all my artifacts, I die incredibly fast due to the complete squishiness that is the Templar class.

6. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Entanglements. Now, I haven't seen what this new change does to help things, but consider the entanglements available to the life side as an active skill: Transfix, Web, Impale. One of those is blocked by an artifact, the other two have a pre-req in stripping blindness or prone. Now, on the other side, you have hangedman, which can be flung over and over again until the Indorani's heart is content provided they have enough cards. This is -huge- in team combat as you can effectively take the best people on the other side out of a fight repeatedly. You guys don't like kai banish? Try kai banish where you're also taking damage. Add in single break skills at low levels that can wither away limbs, consuming salve balance and slowing down opponents, and you've got an army of low-level combatants with minimal investments. What do we tell our young to do? The lower level skills are superior on the other side.

Alexina · October 2013

I can honestly say that I'm not entirely happy playing in Bloodloch recently. I like most of the people there, but the atmosphere is so compeletely utterly and stale in the Dominion which is all a bit meh. This is not really super relevant to the discussion at hand, but if it hadn't been for the very prohibitive cost of switching sides, I'd probably have gotten cured months ago. Heck, I almost did it anyway when Tyrak hopped to Duiran.

Transing a class is 900 credits and you get half the lessons back when quitting it. That means I'd lose roughly 3150 credits just in lessons if I ever wanted to join a city with different tetherings. I really just can't motivate that. Although the Dominion stuff is bound to pick up momentum sometime, right? I can just bash in the meanwhile.

^_^

Toz · October 2013

1) You are not always 'outnumbered 2:1'. I think this comment, coming from anyone on either side, irritates me a great deal more than it ought to - simply put, there is no way to moderate how many people you bring. You have 10? Great, fort up and get ready - they may have 2 and not show up. Or maybe they have 16. I've watched BL fight 3v9, and I watched Duiran bring 16 people to a Capture The Flag without a single other participant. If you can get the numbers, go fight. If you can't, try some ranged skirmish/something sneaky, see if that works. Or just stay home - this is addressing a symptom though. Not the problem. The problem is that the lifer side of things has too few mid-tier combatants because when there was a bulk of top-tiers, they killed off the mid-tier level instead of helping them grow. This means now your top-tier is non-existent, and that you have a tiny mid-tier as well.

2) Everyone always ever is going to shout stupid stuff. Except me, because I don't ever shout. Similarly, complaints of 'running too much' and 'shield-whoring' always kind of crack me up. Heaven forbid someone doesn't just stand there and die. I can't help with much of the rest, though I will say as defensively strong as Luminary is, I have a lot of trouble coming up with pity for their offensive woes.

3) Sometimes things on darkie webs get bad. but it's never bad towards other darkies, it's towards lifers. This is true, and it kind of irks me, but at the same time? I wonder if they're right, and just phrasing it crassly. I can name names and count on one hand the number of darkies I hear reliably bad-mouthing people. Even with fingers and toes, I'm not sure I could count the number of Duiran/Eno people I've heard get super rage-y after a fight, either towards one side or the other. I'm no saint myself, I get pretty angry sometimes too - but I do try to keep it off clans, and mostly just spam profanity at @Moirean over Trillian, where she supplies me with enough :/s that I can get over myself.

4) Classpick arena is your best friend. One day when I have time, I'm going to calculate up stuff - but most people don't really know the numbers of their classes. I had a hard time forging stuff for some classes because I realized I had no clue about what their attack speed/aff rate was. It is, at least, something you can find out for yourself - also you have the option to read the AB of any skill, even if you don't have the class (my mind was blown by that the other day, btw).

5) There are a ton of ways to hinder back that are practical for group pk, not one on one - and imho, group pk is how you forge 1v1 fighters. Not the other way around. @Xenia started out as a complete newbie, with no clue about pvp in Iron Realm games. She got involved with group pk first, learned the ropes there, and ended up actually killing people 1v1 as CARNIFEX using FIRSTAID. She's probably an outlier, but I think she DOES at least highlight the usual way things go. You want more 1v1? Start bringing people interested in group pk to group fights. Start group fight training - the Atabahi still run a game Kog taught them for it (fox and hounds), where one artied/more experienced member tries to kill/survive until the event ends, and the rest all try to drag them down. It's kind of fun, give a little credit reward for participation, and boom. An event that teaches people to mind themselves in group pk (the fox can and will drag you off if you derp, presumably), and teaches them how to work with others.

6) Trip is lifer-only. As is whatever it is shamans do. While hangedman is annoying, sure, you can't bbt off of it and it will only lock one person down - there are ways to stop it. If there's one indorani, banish them obviously. If there are more, consider taking out the source of damage instead of focusing on them. It's tactical stuff there - hangedman is not the end-all be-all of combat, I remember having this same discussion with darkies when I was rocking lifer monk for that sweet, sweet trip/bbt experience (got me end-game!)

EDIT: I also vehemently disagree with the idea that 'lower-level' skills for classes on the dark side of things is stronger than lifer-side. Carnifex alone is like a gaping black hole at low levels - it's like 4s+ to swing a halberd, for 600 damage. Maybe some things are higher skillcap on the lifer side of things, but I did just fine as Kog, fighting non-endgame. I even managed to 3v3 Mazzion, Isto and Samos without a single member of my group but me trans a single skill. Lycan/Sentinel/Luminary op, apparently.

Angwe · October 2013

@Toz

There's a lot of stuff you can't really use classpick arena for. Soulstones, tarot cards, tablets, ect. (strange that these all seem to be darkside classes) none of these things can be made in the arena itself. Just saying.

I'm going to disagree with the notion that group PK is how 1v1ers are made. I hate group PK. Always have, always will. If more than two people are fighting in a room, my computer will freeze the fuck up. 1v1 is what I PK for and how I prefer to PK.

Toz · October 2013

Ah yes, the...admin conspiracy? Bug it/idea it/suggest a change. It's dumb you don't get the stuff a class would use when you use classpick, I agree 100%. Should be fixed, I think it was posed awhile back and I guess it got lost in the mix.

Daskalos · October 2013

I never said there was an admin conspiracy.

To counterpoint:

1) You say to use ranged combat, what do you suggest? Doppleganger, adjacent room attacks? Don't insult me and suggest telepathy as long as the interference barricade exists. That basically means short of getting a caclysm or LoS javelins, Enorian has no ranged combat. Meanwhile, Indorani and Cabalists get Dopplegangers, plus star tarot, plus lots of other things.

2) Not everyone, but enough. Exayne, in particular, annoys the crap out of me because no matter how many times I kill him, he keeps being a git.

3) I generally try to calm people down when they get ragey.

4) I've started compiling a list, but, for instance, I don't have a clue what rituals a Bloodborn puts up that contribute to their aff rate. And, as Angwe said, not everything works with classpick.

5) Which hindering skills? Other than what I mentioned above, please enlighten me. Though, again, need to see how the new stacking affects everything so this might not be as big an issue now.

6) 'Trip' is lifer only, but proning skills are not. From the 'most broken class in Aetolia' I give you:

Savagery - Takedown

Usage: TAKEDOWN <target>

Charge into someone with your shoulder, knocking them down to the
ground.

or

Savagery - Sweep

Usage: POLE SWEEP

Sweeps pole in a low arc, tripping everyone nearby to the ground.

Angwe · October 2013

@Daskalos

I just keep Exayne on ignore. It's really not worth getting upset about people like that. With some people, it's just not worth retaliating or continuing on with them and, in fact, to do so only encourages, rewards and validates them. Ignore their existence. When they find that Aet has become a single-player experience because no one can stand them, they'll leave. Or at the very least, they'll leave you alone.

Edit: Hrrrngh, comma splices

Malak · October 2013

Ironic that the day I decide to check out forums for the first time in months, Moirean references me in a post!

I can say vehemently from my experiences in Avalon that Moirean knows what she's talking about regarding how to encourage others to fight; the majority of my first RL year in Avalon was spent as a newb being directed by her combat-education - myself and many many many others. If not for her I probably would never have kept playing the game and now 6 years later - and having been #1 ranked fighter since ranks were introduced in 2008 - I am still thankful for it.

I wish I could muster the motivation to fight in Aetolia again. It's probably 9 months since I've bothered even trying. The biggest offputting point for me is how automation-intensive it is. I've coded a system, it's decent, it works but as is the way with Aetolian combat, it requires constant maintenance, constant time spent upgrading it and tweaking fixing etc that it sucks all of the fun out of the combat system.

I could never understand why the admin support and even encourage - via the way new skills are designed with 'integration into combat systems' in mind - this insane culture that automated combat isn't only advised but actually required to be a part of the scene. The idea that spending more time coding than actually playing the game is somehow enjoyable is an alien idea to me.

This isn't a whine, but given this is the 'how to make more people interested in PK' topic I will opine on the subject.

The time factor isn't the only reason that I find system-based combat off-putting. I simply think that spending a majority of any fight hoping/worrying that my system - the pre-coded machine doing most of the work for me - is or isn't going to work properly, is a ludicrous idea to my combat-oriented brain.

For me, client-coding being the main skill-indicator makes fighting pointless. The way the playerbase and to some extent the admin have dissected the plethora of skills and abilities within this game into a series of numbers and balances has, in my opinion turned it from something that should be fluid, organic, instinctive, into something almost sterile and unimaginative and as an experienced, passionate gamer and, by extension, experienced and passionate fighter, something key is lost when all that happens in a fight is program 1 fights program 2 until one finds a bug in the other and presses the advantage. It seems to me the same thing could be achieved with one skill called 'attack' and one skill called 'heal'.

I am almost certain that someone will say 'but combat is more complicated than that' - I say, is it really? I would appreciate the argument of complexity if, midfight, people were making core decisions about things (offence doesn't really count since the automation has shuffled most classes into a corner where they only have 1-2 at most 3 offensive strategies and again each of these will be dissected down to the atom and analysed), if people were falling behind on curing because they chose badly, not their client choosing badly based on a bug. I often feel that the game is made complex simply for its own sake - adding more layers of complexity doesn't really change anything, it just makes people have to spend more time coding around things which ultimately will result in the exact same situation you were in before you added it.

Using Avalon as an example, automation is actively discouraged in that game with various skills being implemented to ruin 'trigger-bots' as called by the Creator. Hidden afflictions that don't even tell you you've got something. Unlimited illusions midcombat. Emotes in combat. Slothfulness (aeon here but that excellent means of defeating systems has now been reduced to easymode for systems to handle). Historically, any Avalon player that relied solely on a curing system and no instincts, no organic on-the-fly knowhow, has been defeated embarrassingly by a player using 10 aliases and typing everything longhand.

So, on the subject of how to make people more interested in PK? For me, getting rid of the level of automation required to fight would bring me back instantly - I have been searching for an Avalon replacement since the creator went a bit crazy, and I'd be 10 hours a day in Aetolia full time the day that the necessity of systems goes away. I doubt that will ever happen, but one can hope.

To anyone that tells me 'You can buy a system and save yourself the trouble' - don't bother. You are entirely missing my point about personal pride, skill and self-satisfaction. It's a pyrrhic victory at best, killing someone using someone else's code and that underlines exactly what I have tried to say - it shows zero skill in the game to use the perfect coding system - and yes, I am aware that it requires a significant amount of game knowledge, but theory does not equal skill and it's pointless arguing otherwise.

Tl;dr - Combat should be an art, not a science.

Toz · October 2013

Ranged attacks: javelins, archery, cataclysm, telepathy (AB REFINING DESTABILIZE), meteor arrows (ohai star tarot that anyone can use). Off the top of my head.

As for hindering, you have Templars who can attack and deliver 2 venoms at sub-2s, the only class that can instantly start out at that speed. A monk can infinitely kai-cripple in a team fight, or enfeeble - pretty much in a melee of over 4-5 people, they'll be max kai the whole time. Trip. Oh my god trip, how I adore you. Traps. Vibes. Bahkatu - oh my god the limb shredding I could pull off, esp. paired with a monk. Neckdrag is amazing too. Shaman class I don't understand nearly as well as I'd like to, but they also have a sizable hindering pool.

To put it bluntly, this is exactly what I'm talking about, though. When people bring up the differences between lifer pk and darkie pk, this stands out: the level of defeatist/they've got better mechanics we lose/etc. vs just...the lack of it, I guess. I've heard more 'Templar's OP but oh well' from those playing against life, and hear infinitely more 'they're op we lose may as well quit' from the lifers, while any evidence/information/faintest hint of a suggestion otherwise is shot down off-hand. It's incredibly frustrating, and probably the reason why people quit helping - and also the reason I'm going to stop posting about individual skills now. This isn't something I should be telling you, this is something you all should be researching as a group. I invented a damage syssin stack working with a group of 3 non-comms the other day, surely you all can come up with interesting and inventive ways to combine your skills as well.

Arbre · October 2013

Daskalos said:

(though a Luminary should never beat another good good combatant for the most part, got a few new tricks I want to try out but haven't tested practically yet to know).

You and I sparred once and tied when you were trying to show me that Luminaries weren't as op as people played them up to be. I have since sparred a couple of times with Rivas, who had WAY less artifacts than you, and possibly less than me (or at least equal), and he kicked my rear in less than a minute. Why?

---

If Atabahi wasn't a neutral class, I doubt I would have ever switched sides. I adore the class and felt really bad for @Xavin when he had to drop BB, because I knew he loved the class. I don't have a solution for this, since I don't believe in having mirror classes, but it's a simple fact. Even if it was still a 1:1 switch from Atabahi to Bahkatu, I doubt I would have left.

Saybre · October 2013

Toz said:

Ranged attacks: javelins, archery, cataclysm, telepathy (AB REFINING DESTABILIZE), meteor arrows (ohai star tarot that anyone can use). Off the top of my head.

As for hindering, you have Templars who can attack and deliver 2 venoms at sub-2s, the only class that can instantly start out at that speed. A monk can infinitely kai-cripple in a team fight, or enfeeble - pretty much in a melee of over 4-5 people, they'll be max kai the whole time. Trip. Oh my god trip, how I adore you. Traps. Vibes. Bahkatu - oh my god the limb shredding I could pull off, esp. paired with a monk. Neckdrag is amazing too. Shaman class I don't understand nearly as well as I'd like to, but they also have a sizable hindering pool.

To put it bluntly, this is exactly what I'm talking about, though. When people bring up the differences between lifer pk and darkie pk, this stands out: the level of defeatist/they've got better mechanics we lose/etc. vs just...the lack of it, I guess. I've heard more 'Templar's OP but oh well' from those playing against life, and hear infinitely more 'they're op we lose may as well quit' from the lifers, while any evidence/information/faintest hint of a suggestion otherwise is shot down off-hand. It's incredibly frustrating, and probably the reason why people quit helping - and also the reason I'm going to stop posting about individual skills now. This isn't something I should be telling you, this is something you all should be researching as a group. I invented a damage syssin stack working with a group of 3 non-comms the other day, surely you all can come up with interesting and inventive ways to combine your skills as well.

Just want to point out.

Javelins blow. Period.

The introduction of archery as a general skill was a good start (Can't shoot meteor arrows!)
However..
1 ) Can't fire meteors, as stated above.
2 ) Dear GOD it misses so much it makes me want to cry. It's near useless and slow as snot.

Only work around is artifact bows, or everyone rolling Syssin. Now, if we had a credit machine to hand us all artifact bows, that'd be super awesome, but it's pretty low on most people's artifact priority list.

Continue as you were. :P

Daskalos · October 2013

Uh, Arbre...

You, uh, might want to ask Rivas that question. I would guess that you were not as focused against him, or trying as hard, or something.

Since Rivas' entire Luminary offense is the one I coded. That I use. I have no idea how he's beating you and I'm not, since we both use the same offense.

Just sayin'.

Macavity · October 2013

Let's not.

Irruel · October 2013

Daskalos said:
3. For all the 'light side has a vitriolic PK environment rhetoric' comments, I would wager that it's just the same coming from the other side towards us.

@daskalos
You missed their point there. The vitriolic comments being referred to are made from light-siders to light-siders. And you cannot deny they are there. I'm a pretty thick-skinned and easy going guy. I don't get offended easily by bad language, and I loved the rage channel which briefly existed in Achaea all those years ago.

I've joined webs and seen lighters on the same team abusing each other to the extent that I've quit and gone off to read a book instead. None of the vitriol aimed at me, but frankly, I'd rather read a book than web chat even at the best of times, and when it's school-yard posturing and sarcasm, what's the point?

@The thread
Not one lifer in the last few months (that I've seen) knows how to lead a team. Most of the time there isn't even consistent target calling. We do a lesser without target calling and without everyone in the web. No one banishes the elds, and while the odd person scents to track enemies coming it, if they do arrive there isn't a target call or any coordination at all.

But I'm not dissing lifers in general about that. Not everyone is a natural leader, and without an example, very few people can learn to be a natural leader. We've plenty of good fighters in all tiers, and if the top-tier ones are often idling because they're bored with the state of world pvp and only hanging around for the one-on-one stuff, well I'm sure that all it would take to get them involved again is some solid leadership giving them the hope that it's not just going to be inane web chat followed by a ludicrous death.

Macian · October 2013

Irruel said:

Daskalos said:
3. For all the 'light side has a vitriolic PK environment rhetoric' comments, I would wager that it's just the same coming from the other side towards us.

@daskalos
You missed their point there. The vitriolic comments being referred to are made from light-siders to light-siders. And you cannot deny they are there. I'm a pretty thick-skinned and easy going guy. I don't get offended easily by bad language, and I loved the rage channel which briefly existed in Achaea all those years ago.

I've joined webs and seen lighters on the same team abusing each other to the extent that I've quit and gone off to read a book instead. None of the vitriol aimed at me, but frankly, I'd rather read a book than web chat even at the best of times, and when it's school-yard posturing and sarcasm, what's the point?

This. Macian is damn near dormant at this point - aside from being busy with work, what Irruel said is the main reason I don't bother that often with PK.

The biggest issue I see with developing lifer-side PK ability is that people seem to expect that the person leading be good at PK on an individual basis. There are a handful of people in Duiran (and, I assume, Enorian) that others appear to be willing to follow. Unfortunately that same handful often goes off their rocker over losing (or people doing things they disagree with). Not a particularly fun combination.

Throw into that the fact that a lot of our "respected" PKers seem to be constantly idling, and it's a pretty unpleasant situation.

To change, we either need people willing to follow other mid-tiers because they can lead even without being amazing, develop more top-tiers who aren't immature, or have the top-tiers grow up.

Edit: changed sentences because repetition sounded stupid.

Seir · October 2013

Alright, so I saw strolling along the forums and saw this thread and deciding to pitch my two cents in regarding my opinion of combat in Aetolia. I have now fought on both sides after having dicked around on a Praenomen for a length of time after I retired Seir. For background, I have also played and become an established combatant in other games across IRE excluding Midkemia. While this is largely my opinion, I do have some basis and background in recognizing certain flaws, problems, or issues with PvP mechanics and balancing.

One, after having played from both perspectives, I can generally say that the darkie atmosphere is a bit more pleasant, but I saw my fair share of people raging from time to time. There's not as much rage on darkie as it is on lifer, but I'd really attribute a lot of lifer's raging to be from frustration. They are usually outnumbered largely because the shadow organizations contain the hook class (vampire) that defines Aetolia on a whole. Aetolia even advertises themselves as a game with vampires, so most players will naturally gravitate to that class. I can't really think of a time as Seir where we had numerical advantage, let alone even numbers in most fights.

Two, Aetolia is largely in a state of horrid balance due to a number of factors. Class wise, Templars are nuts, and I'd say that after playing a vamp, they're probably still nuts too. However, it's not necessarily that the classes themselves are imbalanced, I'd contribute all of the issues down to auditing and artifacts. Auditing, after a year or more now of being implemented, is still largely broken and resistances are fluctuating all over the place.

My next point in addressing the state of balance deserves its own paragraph: artifacts. Right now, I can safely say that Aetolia is no longer a pay-for-perk game. It is, whether you agree or not, a pay-to-win game. Offensive artifacts contribute so much to certain classes that it is borderline obscene and the following classes come to mind: Druid, Templar, Monk, Praenomen, and Bloodborn. While I realize it is terribly difficult to balance artifacts and that Aetolia is still largely a business, it has gotten to a point where artifacted individuals don't even bother going for the main route of their class offense, but rather just going for straight raw damage. Hell, even group fights just turn out to be who can bring the most people, the most CC, and the most damage. There's really no tactics at all to them save minor tricks here and there. While Aetolia may not be the only game like this (I can say Achaea also is right now to some degree), it is one of the largest contributing factors to the state of PK. I can say that it is the main reason that I quit. I frankly got tired of being bashed to death by people who bought their way instead of practicing.

Thirdly, the liaison system. This is not to harp on the current liaisons, the administration, or any of them in particular, but I have to cast a vote of no confidence in the current system based on Aetolia's current state. My suggestion, in all honesty, would be to scrap the individual liaisons entirely and adopt Achaea/Imperian's system. Everyone is capable of submitting, making comments, and voting on something. The administration will then determine the best course of action.

How would I fix all of this?

Lifers need a draw and a hook to make the class and side appealing. However, given that Lycanthropes (as a pop culture draw and hook concept are available to both sides, that one is out). Vampires will be a huge draw for new players and I'm fairly sure that Loch's population vastly outweighs any other organization (that is speculation on my end, but Loch's CWHO was always larger than Duiran's CWHO in my experience). I can't really think of any class that could rival vampires in terms of attracting interest, but that is what needs to be done.

As for artifacts, balancing classes, and auditing, I feel that artifacts need to be looked at first. At present, they confer way too much advantage to individuals. I have said this before and I will say it again: if at any point an individual is foregoing the main route(s) of offense for their class and treating another player like a mob and bashing them to death, there is a problem. Damage is a horrid concept to balance around and it has NEVER worked in any IRE game (case in point: Carnifex. The class will always be either horrible and insanely broken because the class revolves entirely around damage and a gimped soul mechanic that involves doing more damage.)

God damn, I've typed entirely too much on this subject, so I'm just going to stop there. Edit: Though I'm going to add this: While I've played other games and I currently lurk around Achaea, I've never played a game like Aetolia where I felt like I was being penalized for playing on one side. When I think back now and compare my experiences as Seir versus my vampire alt, my previous experiences in Lusternia and Imperian, and my current times on Achaea, I feel like (as Seir) that I was on the side that was supposed to lose, that we're the buttmonkey because we were against the hook concept of the game. It isn't fun or entertaining. Edit 2: Oh, and for the love of God, just get rid of all forms of ranged combat in the game. All of it. You'd see such a significant improvement in the game if people are forced to fight in the same room.

Daskalos · October 2013

Someone asked why we put up with people who scream and yell at our own people... and this is, as best I can tell, why, based off stuff that has happened time and again.

PersonA joins Enorian and throws temper tantrums, yells\screams at other citizens, creates a bad environment.

LeaderA grabs PersonA and tells them to cool down.

At this point 1 of 2 things usually happens:

PersonA calms down and begins to contribute until his next big blowup (see Illidan as an example of that)

PersonA doesn't really change and either switches sides by force or voluntarily (see Moirean as an example of that).

In situation 1, we have to deal with a potential vitriolic flare up.

In situation 2, either the person is going to do well on the other side (I'll show them, they'll regret crossing me!) or they get their act together because of being forced out and change, but at that point, the change for the better is happening on the other side.

So, honestly, it's a damned if we do and damned if we don't scenario. Bloodloch already has the numbers and strength in terms of artifacts, experience, and general knowledge. Do we risk strengthening them further by running off those that fight but throw fits when they lose or do we keep them but risk losing newer PK'ers and older ones who are just tired of it all.

I know when I was Vanguard, Illidan got away with a lot of crap but eventually it hit a point where I had enough and he was on his last chance, and then after I left, he got booted. But at the same time, the people complaining the loudest about him were people I had -never- seen come to a fight. As someone that has to fight these battles, I'm taking the hotheaded combatant over the calm non-com 9 times out of 10, simply because you can have all the wonderful RP in the world, but without might to back it up, it doesn't mean squat. Look at Spinesreach for years. They RP'd their superiority to everyone that would listen and looked down their noses at people but couldn't win a battle, let alone a war, to save their life.

I RP'd with some people that would RP these big, dangerous creatures and would tell me that Dask should be scared because their Alpha's. Why? Dask can whip them in any fight and no amount of RP is going to change that.

tl;dr - Stop accepting the hotheads on the other side so easily when Enorian\Duiran runs them off and maybe Enorian\Duiran can do something about it in the long run. And before you say you don't, you guys gave Calipso shelter after she infuriated half the realm.

Until someone is shown that their behavior isn't tolerated -anywhere- they're not going to change and those people will still play the game.

Valdus · October 2013

Seir said:

One, after having played from both perspectives, I can generally say that the darkie atmosphere is a bit more pleasant, but I saw my fair share of people raging from time to time. There's not as much rage on darkie as it is on lifer, but I'd really attribute a lot of lifer's raging to be from frustration. They are usually outnumbered largely because the shadow organizations contain the hook class (vampire) that defines Aetolia on a whole. Aetolia even advertises themselves as a game with vampires, so most players will naturally gravitate to that class. I can't really think of a time as Seir where we had numerical advantage, let alone even numbers in most fights.

Two, Aetolia is largely in a state of horrid balance due to a number of factors. Class wise, Templars are nuts, and I'd say that after playing a vamp, they're probably still nuts too. However, it's not necessarily that the classes themselves are imbalanced, I'd contribute all of the issues down to auditing and artifacts. Auditing, after a year or more now of being implemented, is still largely broken and resistances are fluctuating all over the place.

My next point in addressing the state of balance deserves its own paragraph: artifacts. Right now, I can safely say that Aetolia is no longer a pay-for-perk game. It is, whether you agree or not, a pay-to-win game. Offensive artifacts contribute so much to certain classes that it is borderline obscene and the following classes come to mind: Druid, Templar, Monk, Praenomen, and Bloodborn. While I realize it is terribly difficult to balance artifacts and that Aetolia is still largely a business, it has gotten to a point where artifacted individuals don't even bother going for the main route of their class offense, but rather just going for straight raw damage. Hell, even group fights just turn out to be who can bring the most people, the most CC, and the most damage. There's really no tactics at all to them save minor tricks here and there. While Aetolia may not be the only game like this (I can say Achaea also is right now to some degree), it is one of the largest contributing factors to the state of PK. I can say that it is the main reason that I quit. I frankly got tired of being bashed to death by people who bought their way instead of practicing.

Thirdly, the liaison system. This is not to harp on the current liaisons, the administration, or any of them in particular, but I have to cast a vote of no confidence in the current system based on Aetolia's current state. My suggestion, in all honesty, would be to scrap the individual liaisons entirely and adopt Achaea/Imperian's system. Everyone is capable of submitting, making comments, and voting on something. The administration will then determine the best course of action.

Just to comment briefly on these points without detracting from the discussion:

1) We've long understood this and we have many things planned to address it. Some of the non-"hook" orgs have already had some interesting roleplay and themes thrown their way and there's only more of that to come. Some of the updates we have planned have such a game-changing scope that it's very likely they will never even make it into the 'preview' posts - you'll just have to wait and see.

2) These issues are known about and are currently being heavily discussed. Liaisons have been crunching numbers and helping us build a plan to address damage scaling discrepancies (not just for Templars, but yes, we know they're a major offender) and how artifacts and stats interplay with the skills. I would heavily disagree that it's become pay-to-win, however - both the recent revamps and updates to come try to offer multiple pathways for different statpacks, tactics and investments. I am a bit surprised that shaman (well, druid) is on your list given that we've only seen a handful of players attempt it, and they happened to be artifacted before the class was released; more of a correlation than a cause, would be my guess. With Oleis at the helm as assistant producer, I would anticipate that these issues will be resolved in a much more prompt timeline than previously.

3) We've actually been very happy with what we've seen of the liaisons, especially recently - the release of the liaison server has given has a new avenue to test out concepts and updates, and by hand-picking our pool of liaisons, we ensure that they pull their weight and earn the status, since they largely act as the medium between our update plans and the live game. Regarding liaison reports, this has come up a few times recently, so I'll just repeat it for emphasis: anyone can create, submit, and comment on reports. Liaisons are asked to sort the reports, add their own comments, and pass them through with a vote for approval or rejection. The liaisons themselves do not act as the final voice on any report, nor do they have the ability to approve or reject - that is solely the administration's power. We ask that liaisons work with those who are submitting the reports to make sure they accurately address the problem as they see it, and contain workable solutions that can be discussed and tested - their job is to make sure the communication lines are open, rather than push any agenda they may have for their own alliances or classes. We dramatically increased the limit on the number of reports people can submit, and last round this let us get a few more reports than we had previously, but we are always looking for more submissions when the rounds are open.

The one feature that has been requested that we have denied is the ability to see liaison's individual comments, and that's honestly because we want impartiality. We do not want players harassing liaisons for their perceived opinions or concerns - it was shown many times in the past that holding the liaison accountable to their orgs only diminished their ability to talk objectively.

Macavity · October 2013

@Valdus I for one was not aware that we could comment as well, did you know that we cannot see comments at all? This might help us to focus comments more if we were able to see them. Just an idea for ya! thanks!

Missari · October 2013

Macavity said:

@Valdus I for one was not aware that we could comment as well, did you know that we cannot see comments at all? This might help us to focus comments more if we were able to see them. Just an idea for ya! thanks!

Valdus said:

The one feature that has been requested that we have denied is the ability to see liaison's individual comments, and that's honestly because we want impartiality. We do not want players harassing liaisons for their perceived opinions or concerns - it was shown many times in the past that holding the liaison accountable to their orgs only diminished their ability to talk objectively.

Macavity · October 2013

I swear that was not there when I read it before!! thats my story and I am sticking to it!! heh

Lhee · October 2013

Could always just obscure who said it? That way you're only communicating with the ideas put across in the comments, not the person who made them.

...You'd probably have to curtail or punish attempts to figure out who wrote what, as well, just for an added layer of 'guys it's supposed to be anonymous and impartial'.

Irruel · October 2013

I don't think it matters about the comments. Honestly, it'll just turn into a flame fest otherwise.

Seir · October 2013

To be perfectly honest, I don't think hiding liaison's comments encourages impartiality. If anything, it can discourage it because the liaison knows that while they may be held accountable to only the administration, I can say with experience as a former envoy in Lusternia and a former classlead in Imperian and watching my peers at the time that it doesn't take much to tip-toe across a line of logical fallacies to make someone's case appear unbiased or unmotivated by personal interest. Transparency, on the other hand, is a much greater factor in ensuring that liaisons are keeping impartial because they are exposed to the player base and the usage of said fallacies can therefore be called out more often because of peer review. I'm pretty sure that it was the administration's policy to attempt to be more transparent as to the going's on in Aetolia. I don't really feel how this is any different.

In fact, I can say that it honestly makes me uncomfortable as someone who makes an investment into the game. Think about the fact that it's about 300 credits to transcend one of your class skills from Inept. That's about 900 credits, give or take if you account lessons, it's less than that. However, for combat readiness, you still have to transcend abilities like Survival or maybe Vision depending on the class so for this example, we'll go with 900 credits. That is about $279.99 bare minimum. Let's also take the fact that about 85% of all skills in Aetolia are PK-related since only bashing skills are usable against mobs and then you have some minor utility scattered throughout. Since nearly all of our abilities are usable against other players and generally by that definition related to PK, I'm blindly entrusting my investment to a small group of players who have their own invested interest in their abilities and have no idea if they're acting in the best interest of the game or themselves. That is my problem with the liaison system, why I'm uncomfortable with it, and I can honestly point out that the current state of game balance as a reason that it's not working. I wouldn't be saying this if the system was new, but it's been out for awhile now and not only did this thread come to be with a number of concerns rising about PK on a whole, but the current state of game balance speaks for itself and the game has been poorly balanced for some time now, as you've acknowledged @Valdus in the case of artifacts, audits, and so forth.

Whereas, I look at games like Achaea and Imperian where all comments are made available, there is equal accountability to everyone and their games are in a much better state of balance after all is said and done. You can disagree with me if you want, but the entire sweeping subject of PvP in general is not brought up a lot if you want to take a look at their forums. It's usually minor things or common issues that all of the games face (such as ranged combat being stupid) but nearly all of those games have proactively remedied these things. Aetolia's playerbase is still going through the same back and forth and trying to find some middle ground to appease everyone yet doesn't actually remedy the problem (see: Archery still being complained about despite the fixes).

I will admit that the system isn't a total failure. You did finally fix the entanglement stacking issue, but that is something that was complained about for nearly two years since the inception of Carnifex, or with Hangedman in general. So, people can choose to write me off as some idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about, but even @Kaeus has come over and played both sides and admitted that I was right in a lot of regards and @Xavin, who I argued with forever on multiple issues when we were both liaisons, has admitted that I was right on quite a few instances. I wholly admit that I have the capacity to be wrong on issues, but I doubt I'm wrong on these when the evidence is pretty much staring right back at us from other games and when we look at the game's current state of balance and this thread.

Ezalor · October 2013

I would actually love to see liaison comments on skills (well, now I can, but before when I wasn't a liaison). Allowing the submitter to clarify and expand on their report would be pretty helpful. It could be policed strictly so that people who argue incessantly or get unpleasant over them could simply have their commenting/report submission privileges revoked.

As far as liaisons feeling pressure, I would hope they are more thick-skinned and impartial than that. They were chosen to be liaisons, after all, based on their combat knowledge/experience so they should be able to trust their own judgment even under duress (or, on the flip side, to reconsider their stances when good arguments are presented).

Daskalos · October 2013

I'm a big fan of Achaea's system that takes the reports out of liaison's hands. No one is saying you can't have a set of players to be -testers- which is what your current liaisons would become, but if you open up the system like Achaea's it promotes transparency and eliminates a lot of the negative perception around the system about a select few being able to handle it.

I know I lost a lot of faith in the system when one of the 'hand chosen' liaisons (not in this current batch) flat out told me I should thank her for 'even supporting one of your ideas'. Heck, one of the current liaisons told me I knew nothing about combat.

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