PK

Arbre · October 2013

This discussion was created from comments split from: Ankyrean Anguish - Aetolia-based RAGE.

Teani · October 2013

Raging at those idling because there are things in the game that are not balanced properly. Yes, artifacts may not be balanced. Yes, things might not always work properly, but idling in a haven sure as hell is not going to change anything for the better!

Instead the few of us actually trying to fight at Lessers are defeated because the other side rounds up their people and defeat us by sheer numbers. Me, Kaestrin and Dato against Mazzion, Alexina, Rou, Zaephlyn, Moirean, Fyuree and Macavity. How is that even remotely balanced?

Probably going to be frowned at by posting this, or possibly get replies telling me it's in protest so something gets done or that I have no clue what it's all about, but yeah, it's my rage, and I'm allowed to, so there!

Sessizlik · October 2013

Teani said:

Stuff

Sadly, there are too many lifers who has just given up. I was told to give up too, but doing that won't help the game either. I prefer meaningless fights where I know I will be killed, over standing at the side whining like some.

I suppose that's my rage. Allies telling me to give up and not even try, because Loch and Spines bring bigger numbers. If Sessi can drag her semi-pacifistic behind into battle, surely combatants should be able to!

Zaephlyn · October 2013

I hate to say it, and I totally understand where you're all coming from, but honestly a lot of the time the only people I see showing up to lessers from our side are like.. three people. Mind you! This is late at night, I dunno what goes on durin' the day! Like when Macavity ends up at a lesser it's like.. well.. hell, there's our backup. Many a time I've done a lesser with just me and him, or me and Rou, or just myself and no one comes to challenge me. *shrug*

Moirean · October 2013

I rarely show up at lessers these days, simply because I know there aren't lifers coming to contest it. I showed up last night because I wanted to test out my new Syssin offense...and like 4 other people appeared in between me farseeing just Dato and you 2 and me galloping in.

Ciarelle · October 2013

I don't want to cause a debate here, it is a rage/venting thread, and I understand the frustration so I'm not trying to frown on anyone.

I can kind of see both sides to the issue, though. There seem to be basically three reasons that you might bother going after lessers:

1) You enjoy it - you're probably getting minor leylines too, you like the searching/finding aspect of it, etc.

2) Out of loyalty to your city

3) For the fights

If your reasons are primarily some combination of 1 or 2, you probably are going to be fine with going out and fighting again and again. I know those are mostly my reasons (except when I'm experiencing a bit of burnout, like now). Oh yay, we won that one. I died three times? That's cool, we got about half of the ylem available from that thing before Spines/Loch arrived, not so bad.

If your reason is primarily number three, though, I can see how you might get sick of bothering. You put a lot of time and effort into getting your combat right only to find yourself and your friends getting defeated again and again not by something you're doing wrong but instead some flaw with balance, skills, etc.. You don't learn anything from it, you can't fix it, and if you feel like nobody's listening to your complaints... well, like I said, I'm generally more in the first boat, but I can definitely see where other people are coming from.

Moirean · October 2013

The lifer combat problems aren't because of balance/skill issues.

Edit: To clarify, I'm not trying to troll. The "good" side of the game has struggled with unity among its PKers for the predominant lifespan of the game. This isn't just a momentary issue or the fault of several people, though some names are usually more noticeable at any given point (I know that I could often get bitchy back when I was more...icky) - but the PK climate just tends towards a more toxic environment. There is in-fighting and losses aren't handled as constructively; people get upset, people get called out, there's arguing and finger pointing and there are fewer resources/people willing to just sit and chat combat with new PKers.

I suspect the deeper issue has to do with what type of gamer is drawn to the dark/antagonistic role, as well as the RP tied up in playing that role. Other games show the same sort of tendency - in Avalon, for example, the dark cities and classes tended to innately drawn in the players more actively interested in the PK sides of the game, and even WoW initially pulled in more PKers on the Horde side of the game in its early years. Adding to the initial appeal of a more ruthless/dark role is that evil characters tend to be less fettered in their actions/choices, so there is a stronger baseline encouragement in their org's culture to just go out and dabble with PK. Finally, there is a snowballing effect - new PKers gravitate to where there are established PKers to help teach them the ropes.

The end result is that lifers have struggled with a more toxic, less supporting and smaller PK culture for basically the entire duration of Aetolia. We've seen a few points in time where that was not always the case, but as someone who helped create these brief moments of lifer PK growth, let me tell you - it's tiring as hell. I was making scrolls, coding plugins, sitting with people and helping test/teach all the time. But, unless there are people doing that, and the snowball effect is reversed, it is unlikely to change, imho.

Ezalor · October 2013

The times I have spent on my lifer combat alt and going to lessers on him have killed most of my desire to do so again. It might be a culture thing, like Moirean said, but what I witnessed on the lifer side was a refusal to communicate (half the time people aren't even in the same web), lots of flaming for stuff gone wrong, refusal to learn, and most people having some stuck up attitude about taking advice or improving. It's an entirely different atmosphere and much less effective camaraderie than what goes on on the darkie side. There's also almost always some balance whine, flat out raging, or rampant teammate blaming after a loss rather than sitting there, looking at the log, and going "okay this is what went wrong, this is what we need to fix.'

As far as numbers, it is exactly what Moirean mentioned. Most of the time darkies aren't even coordinating to go to lessers nowadays, but somehow between locating the lesser and walking there a buttload of people will show up of their own accord without being prompted.

Toz · October 2013

Thirding this. I was told when I went darkie, by several very bitter people, "You'll hate it there, they all rage when they lose", etc. etc. And so I went in pretty apprehensive, and now I prefer infinitely to pk with darkies. It's something that HAS to be worked on, HAS to be fixed, because otherwise things are going to continue spinning out of control. At the risk of being accused of being a spy again, I sometimes log in and try to pvp, only to watch things devolve into a pile of angst. Sometimes it's quiet and polite and a nice atmosphere, but the few times it's bad, it's awful. I've not really ever been yelled at for a loss. I've never had anyone drop the c-bomb on me for not helping pk someone as a darkie. And when I screwed up and mind threw people at themselves, the whole web laughed at me and teased me/made jokes about it, and sort of took the stupid in stride - in short, it's just better. Which is why new people show up/stay/convert, and it's not something that can be fixed by any one person, and certainly not by anyone on the darkie side of things. I guess the tl;dr? Ball's in your court if you want to get things better, and it's going to take a lot of work - but it needs to be done.

Aarbrok · October 2013

I quit combat all together coming to the light side, because of the toxic environment it becomes on this side, the "Research" clans are a vehement pit of snakes ready to strike if you make the slightest mistakes. If you dont participate all they do is say "Too busy mudsexing to help" "Screw you guys for not helping" and things along those lines. As someone who has been in the Spinesreach/Duiran Research clans, even jokingly OOC conversation depending on the context was told to stop and people were removed for not behaving accordingly. I mean knowing Toz as long as I have, I know I have teased him about being a spy or something on alts because of frustration, but honestly hes a great person and not a metagamey type so I hope you never felt that from me particularly to be true.

All seriousness though, I have the energy with my RP to move forward for combat and doing things again, but that being said, I really dont want to switch sides to do it just because I have to deal with certain people who get mad when they dont get help, because that is the reason you don't get help.

I prefer very much the dark side mentality when it comes to combat, it does not feel like a chore or a second job, its because its part of the vibe, you want to help, you want to be part of the progress for your organization. It makes you feel like you are doing something, and no number of points/medals/gold stars can make up for feeling like its forced upon you. Sadly it is just how it is on this side sometimes, the want to help your organization is blinded by the fact that you get talked down to instead of educated.

Macavity · October 2013

I have never been on the Lifer side of PK, because I have Macavity and only Macavity and hes always been on the Dark side. I have to admit that of all the 12 years of playing the game, this year has been the first time I actively went into PKing at all. I down right avoided it at all cost, because it use to be that if you made mistakes or had no clue in what you were doing, you were yelled at and no one seemed to want to help you at all because they were either too busy to help, wanted to keep their code secret and not share it or even hints, or the PKers were an "in group" that you had to fight a LOT to even get noticed and then fight hands over fist more just to get invited in with that group.

However recently I have noticed a paradigm shift towards people actively helping each other and wanting to get others to be better if they actually ask for help and assistance. This alone has grown into a culture that I feel puts people at easy for getting involved in PK on the Dark side. We joke, we laugh, and we do not make it all that serious if we lose. Granted we may still grip about it and what not, but I take that as losing steam and then we still poke fun at it. All around I think we are the ones that make it fun.

I am shocked to hear about the Lifer side in the way they treat their people like they do. I mean if people are yelling at other people for their mistakes and not helping to learn from them, then how do you expect the person to learn at all? Granted there are logs that we can look over and try to code in fixes or updates to our systems, but some people are not that good at those things when first starting out and may need to have someone take them under their wing just to learn.

Also I have to admit that I am shocked that my name is popping up so much on this subject. I do not consider myself a great PKer, in fact far from it. There is still a great more to learn in my eye. Most of the time I go into PK situations I am trying to break my system just so I have a reason to look over things and try something new.

Stathan · October 2013

Because I have no real concept of time. I can't actively say how long I've been in the realms, but I've been playing off and on long enough to see people come and go and gods die, guilds move, guilds be destroyed and replaced and so on.

In that far reaching time of playing I've come up with 2 facts.

1. The lifers generally have the -same- people to PK with because (player)'s RP doesn't give them room to go undead or they have a gimmick and can rofl stomp you without much effort with their class. And I'm intentionally leaving out names so don't call people out.

2. Even back when wars were going on, it was a rare thing for Lifer side groups to be coordinated enough to take out more than 2-4 darkies at a time. And that usually degraded to 2-4 people on the lifer side turning on their auto bashers or spamming room attacks like thornspray and hailstorm.

My rage is simple. In 10 or 12 years of play these two facts haven't changed. At all.

Arbre · October 2013

Aarbrok said:

If you dont participate all they do is say "Too busy mudsexing to help" "Screw you guys for not helping" and things along those lines.

I haven't been PKing mostly because my interest in it comes and goes and I'm not gonna do it if I'm not into it. Two instances have happened in the recent past that have really killed all desire I have had for helping out in that regard, however. In Duiran, I was basically told by someone (who was a lower CR than me and never held anything but a Ministry position while I was a Benandanti and around to fight in the wars when they existed) that since (Xavin and) I haven't fought lately our opinion on the general idea of how things were going was invalid. The second was in Enorian, when one of the citizens called out a Herald for not participating in leyline stuff because he was accused of mudsexing. This is something I have never understood and bothers me to a severe degree - I can validly be useful and never PK. I haven't had the desire to put that much focus into the game so I haven't; because, ultimately, it's a game and I'm gonna do what's fun for me in it. I'm just tired of being put down because people know I can PK and I don't. The entire time(s) I was Benandanti I had Dion an Duir off because the people in it were downright unicorns.

I guess what I'm thinking is that leylines were made for people who enjoy PKing, and it's not like we're hurting for ylem in the SLIGHTEST, so why am I getting flak for not wanting to PK? You don't -need- that lesser, therefore you don't -need- me.

Solaria · October 2013

Arbre said:

Aarbrok said:

If you dont participate all they do is say "Too busy mudsexing to help" "Screw you guys for not helping" and things along those lines.

I haven't been PKing mostly because my interest in it comes and goes and I'm not gonna do it if I'm not into it. Two instances have happened in the recent past that have really killed all desire I have had for helping out in that regard, however. In Duiran, I was basically told by someone (who was a lower CR than me and never held anything but a Ministry position while I was a Benandanti and around to fight in the wars when they existed) that since (Xavin and) I haven't fought lately our opinion on the general idea of how things were going was invalid. The second was in Enorian, when one of the citizens called out a Herald for not participating in leyline stuff because he was accused of mudsexing. This is something I have never understood and bothers me to a severe degree - I can validly be useful and never PK. I haven't had the desire to put that much focus into the game so I haven't; because, ultimately, it's a game and I'm gonna do what's fun for me in it. I'm just tired of being put down because people know I can PK and I don't. The entire time(s) I was Benandanti I had Dion an Duir off because the people in it were downright unicorns.

I guess what I'm thinking is that leylines were made for people who enjoy PKing, and it's not like we're hurting for ylem in the SLIGHTEST, so why am I getting flak for not wanting to PK? You don't -need- that lesser, therefore you don't -need- me.

I know completely who you are talking about, and you never told me about it. That's kind of sad for that person to be that much of a jerk that I can recognize the way that they give people flak. But Aarbs and Arbre are both right - there are certain trollers out there that PK and are utter jerks about it. Frankly, I think we should be far less supportive of their attitudes and start not involving them more in PK because of their attitude. It's hard to do that, but people need to learn to grow up and be cooperative - not act like a unicornhat. I, at one point, was really wanting to get back into PK..but then, I dealt with attitudes like that and I was like - screw that mess. I'll come help, but I am not bothering to go out of my way to improve what I do because they clearly don't care and will just keep talking to me like that regardless of what I do.

@Stathan - after all this time of playing, you're completely right. But, it needs to stop.

I had some new players that I was taking bashing and during the conversation, they brought up PK here. I didn't have the heart to tell them that people were such jerks sometimes. But, if we as a community push to make it stop and make people feel more positive over the negative - maybe we can get somewhere. Rather than just give up, kick jerks out of clans and invite people who want to work together instead. I'm going to be starting to do this with Dion. I'm frustrated with it just as much as anyone else. I am tired of the jerks.

Mastema · October 2013

At the heart of it lifers have some of the greatest damage skills out there. But having been playing a lifer the last month I have to say even with the skills it is pointless as no one wants to work together

This is why I always switch back to Mastema in the end, because at least I get help, respect and a laugh.

Saybre · October 2013

It all depends on who it is you're interacting with. Truth be told, I was all down for lessers initially, but too often it was just Haven and I, or Dato and I, and maybe I convince Roux to come as a meatshield and then like six darkies show up. Coordination be damned, we can't stand up to that. Now when it comes to bigger lifer group losing to darkies, that's just sad and a huge lack of preparation (unless it's a bunch of normally non-coms). I have never, ever berated someone after a fight for making us lose, whatever. The most I've done is a sarcastic joke for a friendly-fire holo-bomb (I laugh when it happens anyways).

Not sure if it's because death/xp loss means diddly squat to me (level 131, I have literally nothing to lose), or that I can distance myself from freaking out about it as much. But if I'm in the mood to PK, I'll go back for seconds, and if I got supremely stomped I'll typically tell the darkie/darkies who accomplished as much that it was fun, non-sarcastically in an OOC manner, because it's like going 'gg'.

I joined the Duiran/Enorian ylem hunting clan for about a day before I quit, because it was nothing but insults, whining, and bitching out the PLAYERS, not the characters. There are certain individuals that fed into that, but at this point I find a lesser and just kind of..show up. I'll yell over city if I find it, and just like before, get something like Roux and I, or Dato and I. If Stathan is on, he'll come and help. Then we get to prep for fun.

@Moirean I hear you completely, I've been working my butt off creating awesome help-files for combat based things for Templar, and I feel like nobody reads them. I can't sit there and write an entire offense for someone, that's insane, plus I'm apparently one of the endangered species of CMUD users in this game.

In short:
Not all Lifer PKers take part in the crap-talk, insults. I just wish that there were easier ways to coordinate with larger groups, but too many people are narrow-minded and the WRONG people often take up the target caller/leadership position in lesser fights, and it hoses everyone else.

Edit: I can't spell apparently.

Moirean · October 2013

*fistbump* for CMUD unity

Minarael · October 2013

I absolutely read the Templar help files, keep writing them. Eventually I'll have a working system. Other stuff keeps taking precedence. <<

The PK environment here is -better- than some of the other IRE games I've been in, but I do wish there was more a spirit of camaraderie in the Light side and less prickly, posturing nonsense.

Macavity · October 2013

Here is my question for those on the Light side... Why do you put up with those individuals that put you down like some have said? Is it a group of people that do it or just a few? If it is a few then why do the rest of you put them in their place and build a team on your own? Or explain to these people that if they want a group to assist them then they need to be nicer?

Haven · October 2013

Player interest and priorities coupled with the notion that there isn't really any real motivation to participate beyond pure want rather than need. Tis my guess anyway.

With the war system, you kind of had to suck up the abuse or log out but ultimately you had to do it otherwise your organization was screwed. No if ands buts about it. Whereas with this system there is a pretty big sense of there is always the next one so I can just avoid the toxic/whateverreasonyouwanthere until it is worth it for me. Aka, ain't nobody got time for that. I'm gonna do what's fun for me.

Teani · October 2013

Macavity said:

Here is my question for those on the Light side... Why do you put up with those individuals that put you down like some have said? Is it a group of people that do it or just a few? If it is a few then why do the rest of you put them in their place and build a team on your own? Or explain to these people that if they want a group to assist them then they need to be nicer?

Question 1: Why put up with them?
If I call out for help with a Lesser, I'm glad if I get a response at all, so I generally take all the help I can get. It's annoying, can be hurtful and very frustrating when people act like you're some kind of lesser being because you can't remember the difference between lust and lure, or what defence or vibe prevents what attack, or can't call targets in a proper order, or keep in mind the different classes the opponents have access to, or react as fast as they'd like. Or I take too long to crack a Lesser, or I'm too fast, not giving time for people to arrive (which usually happens because no one told me they were coming to help, so I've set up to try and solo it).

Granted, I don't hear all of those exact things very often, but there can be this undertone of disapproval in how some people express themselves that puts me, and probably others, down.

If I can't get help, I do it on my own and try to get out alive as best as I can. Most people on the other side know this already. I also try not to get discourage and get out of combat because like hell I'm going to let them win.

Question 2 and 3: a group or a few? Why not make your own group?

It's a few individuals and trust me, if I felt I was good enough I'd probably give it a shot, but I'm not a top-tier combatant. I haven't had the time to put enough efforts into it (can't blame it all on others putting me down), so my aim right now is to at least be helpful, perhaps even harmful and a small part intimidating. I've got a bit to go for the last part there, but I'm still working on it!

Question 4: Tell them to be nicer if they want help?
Generally, they are not the ones asking for help. They are the ones providing it, then complaining when things don't turn out as well as they hoped. At least when it comes to my cases. And for some people it doesn't matter how many times you try to tell them to consider their words, they'll talk their talk because they've always talked their talk.

Toz · October 2013

The people who cause trouble tend to be artifacted/end-game already.

In order to be 'successful' in combat, as far as groups go, you need all three categories - new fighters, mid-tier fighters (these do the bulk imo) and top-tier fighters. The top tiers are the ones calling the shots/helping teach people, the mid-tier fighters make up the bulk of the group, with newbie fighters sprinkled through. Top-tiers help train the mid-tiers, mid-tiers make other mid-tiers more competitive, keep top-tiers sharp, and keep an eye on the newbies. The newbies flail adorably.

The trouble is when there are few top-tiers, or ones not good at 'playing with others', kind of spoil the batch. The people who post in this thread from the lifer side could very well be part of the mid-tier class of fighters, they know the game. Mostly end-game, trans skills, etc. - what killed them is the top-tier not doing their bit, or doing it in a way that is discouraging. And now we see the result: a tiny mid-tier class, top-tiers who aren't particularly interested because there's no mid-tier to help them out, and...no real newbie-tier either. Start from the top, really - or in a pinch, you could try fleshing out the mid-tier on your way to top-tier, but that's going to take someone willing to invest an absurd amount of time/energy.

Moirean · October 2013

Spot on analysis from @Toz.

I think the issue at this point is not something players should be expected to fix on their own. If we're at the point where PKers feel guilty for PKing (and I know I certainly do as a darkie sometimes) and this problem keeps persisting, the problem is something more fundamental.

As I said before, I think it's partially a result of gamer types and the mindsets different RP roles encourage. That doesn't mean things are forever-destined to be unfairly and unfunly unbalanced, but it does suggest that admin are needed to help counteract this.

Some ideas:

- Change the tethering system. ATM, pretty much no top-tier fighters are going to change side, because of multiclass. You will lose THOUSANDS of credits. Make learned classes go dormant during a side switch, instead of forcing you to forget them.

- Repurpose the war ministry. Let the minister of war and the CL promote people at will through the ranks to facilitate its use as a PK training/prestige system. This lets cities easily recognize both top-tier fighters and encourage newer fighters are they learn.

- Encourage PKers. Yes, they might not RP very often, but that makes it easier to encourage them. You don't need to RP for very long! Give them shinies, look for ways to put them in Order positions, include some facet to events that encourages PK to happen (maybe make a shell account and actually have a player behind it with a system for that super enemy, instead of just making a high-health mob to bash down) or even just give a PK "mood" (eg PKers are needed to patrol or remain vigilant against potential attacks).

- Recruit. I'm not sure if there is admin policy against this (I doubt it, since admin USED to do it), and this really does need a change from the tether system to work properly, but one of the most flattering and engaging ways to get anyone (especially a PKer) to swap sides is for a divine to seed the idea. It makes you feel damn important and talented and it makes a sidehop an almost triumphant, awesome feeling, instead of the sensation that you are betraying people and slipping out like a thief in the night.

- Hand-in-hand with divine recruitment, divine "antagonism" is also an amazing way to drive home and inspire people to play their roles. Giving some adversity - especially at a divine level - makes people really step up and embrace their role, giving them a fierce sort of pride, especially if they feel like they are tackling challenges, enduring heroically or resisting temptation. This requires a fairly adept hand, but when done well, this can be one of the best ways to really inspire someone to keep fighting for their org, even against tough odds, especially if their own divine then encourage them to not give in/keep going, etc.

Zaephlyn · October 2013

I used to try and encourage people (lifers), and have built a -few-, (very, very few,) relationships off our PK at lessers. I used to -always- say 'Good Fight' after a lesser whether I lost, or they lost. My comment were met with scorn and hurtful words and degrading comments. 'That wasn't a real fight.' 'Let's rematch at NoT' 'You guys just teamed us.' So... I stopped sending those tells because why make a situation worse if they're already going to be a sore winner/loser??

Missari · October 2013

Sometimes the minutes after a loss are tender, and the more hot headed take any and all comments as snark, especially if they're coming from "the other side" as it were.

Macavity · October 2013

@Moirean I agree with you except for the Tethering part. The only city that would benefit from this would be Spinesreach as the rest of the cities have rather strong RP to not accept the other side. I find your tethering idea to be rather bias and this bothers me a little as you are one of the Liaisons who is suppose to give opinions and thoughts on a non-bias and objective way.

Moirean · October 2013

...what?

BL's RP has been for years to take in people who make them strong. They happily took me in, under that RP, directly after I quit lifers, and they did the same with Mazzion/Kikon/Anya/Tralendar (that's why Azudim is allowed as a citizen). Enorian aims to rescue people from the darkness. They have plenty of room to take in people switching sides. Same with Duiran. Maybe things have shifted in that past year and the player governments now foolishly turn away potential new resources, but I doubt Spinesreach is the only city smart enough to see the usefulness of taking in people who want to switch sides, especially if the change is RP'd out.

As for accusing me of bias in this decision....again, what? I've been saying that classes should go dormant when people switch tethers since I was a lifer, and it's a common suggestion that's kicked around the forums, one which many people - including BL citizens, such as Alexina and Tralendar - have loudly supported. This is nothing about making one city OP. This is about helping players enjoy the game more, and maybe fix the LIFER pk problem.

I would say more, but I don't really even know what else I could write about HELPING FIX LIFER PK that would defend myself from accusations of bias and misuse of my liaison position (not that credit issues like how skills are learned/refunded even fall under liaison purview).

Kaolla · October 2013

I, too, feel that Moirean is completely biased and horrible here and for reasons just as coherent and sensible as Macavity's. After all the brandishment of the PKer against the tether will to be the downfall of the war system. Spinesreach is to be the gain of the change of the matter of course. I do not see how any rational person could disagree with such an erudite reasoning.

Areka · October 2013

Having dormant necromancers that are just as likely to hop sides again IS a bit backwards for Enorian. If dormancy were to come into play, to make the side-switching still be a srs decision would need to come more with a simple toggle of what skills are active (even if this is a cool-down period or a price for activating dormant skills, a la GW2's crafting system).

If the game as a whole wishes to help support the low to middle tier of combat, ya'll could put together a thread with combat tips (like Elea's RP one maybe). I've seen many people willing to participate, but don't bother when there's no direction, clear guidance for target calling (both the literal "who should be the one calling targets, what happens when they die" and "how do you make an order for target priority?"), etc, as well as really knuckle down some IG with what numbers turn up for lessers (both with lifers trying to get more involved - and darkies not simply overwhelming everyone for the win, which does happen quite a bit due to various reasons). These aspects of PK culture are things that players can address, and as we're the ones wanting change, it is on us to do something about it rather than jumping to asking admin to code yet another thing.

Moirean · October 2013

I was imagining that the dormancy would be a mechanical thing, not something IC. Ie, your skills go inactive, can't be accessed, and players ignore that they are there, since the main reason it'd exist would be to stop basically locking people in to one side of the game after they pick up multiple classes. Precedent for having OOC mechanics already exists with things like the mentor system. I'd say maybe even amend my suggestion to include optional free switches between mirror classes like Sciomancers and Ascendril.

Feel free to try to get players to fix things on their own but I do have experience and perspective here. I'm not just throwing out stuff without thoughts behind it. I was one of the big team combat leaders for lifers for almost half a decade, and I've seen the PK scene for both lifers and darkies and from every single city. There are very clear trends and these extend beyond more than just Aetolia, but to other MUDs as well. There are ways to buck these trends - direct recruitment, for example, works really well to lure over fighters interested in better PK balance, an underdog environment or being a big fish in a small pond - but with stuff like tethering being hardcoded in, these options become a lot more limited. Try talking to PKers on either side of the game, and a lot of them will admit that side-hopping is unattractive because of the huge credit investment they will lose - this is not something players can fix, and it's a fundamental problem with the game's design.

Fixing the PK balance between sides is not just something that should concern players, imho. Balanced factions create more conflict and activity, which ultimately generates more profit. This makes this an issue I would think the admin would be concerned about - even if you ignore the economics, the game is simply more fun with a spread of people on both sides.

The multiclass system, and subsequent tethering, has introduced a situation that encourages static roles within the playerbase and encourages them to remain static the longer someone plays. Years ago, the most you sacrificed to switch sides guilds skills and maybe an artifact or two that worked well with a class you had. If people didn't want to sacrifice that but still wanted to try out new skills, they could roll an alt. These days, multiclass is an enticing and easy way to get to play new classes, so rolling an alt is less attractive....and if you want to switch sides, the potential cost is crazy. Let me just break it down:

Pre-multiclass:

Guild skills: 900 credits
Potentially an artifacts or two (eg arti scale losing usefulness if you switched to mage)
Cost: 900 to low thousands credits

Post-multiclass:

Guild skills: 1800-6300 credits
Mercantile skill: 300 credits
Class slots: 0-1400 credits
Class-specific artifacts (eg hunting boons, etc, remember almost all of these are new and most did not always exist): 250-many thousands of credits
Cost: 1800 at the BARE minimum. Around 3500 for someone with 3 classes. Over 10,000 credits for someone with a lot of classes and/or class specific artifacts.

And the longer someone plays on a side, the higher these numbers get, creating even more insane costs deterring them from switching sides. Yes, you can forget skills - for a 50% cost. The numbers are still crazy. I know I'm never switching sides again under this current system.

Asking for admin to look at adjusting the coding restrictions may seem annoying and unproductive - but you have to bear in mind that a lot of us have tried doing the combat leadership thing. After watching newbies join MUDs for over a decade of PKing, it seems like good guys just don't innately draw in as many PKers and, like I have said, that's probably a result of gamer psychology, just like how certain class archetypes naturally draw in more people/certain types of people. Fixing that fundamental imbalance would take a lot of time, effort and probably extensive market research. So the game has instead relied on various strong personalities helping temporarily swing things over its lifespan - the initial Shallam artifact crowd (@daskalos), the underdog group we had in the first Eno-BL war, the Bezaliel influx from Imperian, etc - but this sort of breath of life is a lot less likely to happen these days, unless it's actively encouraged by the administration itself, either through designing mechanics that make it easier to happen, or by using RP to entice people/soften the blow of a switch, or a combination of both. Adjusting how multiclass works could potentially be a big factor here. Other options include ways to re-roll credit investments into new characters, ways to share artifacts between alts (ala heirlooms in WoW), etc. Basically, the bottom line is that it costs a lot to PK, and most high level fighters can't afford to swing back and forth anymore.

Yes, we can ask for people to be nicer and make efforts to disseminate information, but if you look at it practically, at the very bottom line you have to be a bit mercenary in your outlook if you want to build up a fighter culture.

Areka · October 2013

I can look at it practically and see that there are some core issues that are not mechanical and there are options for the playerbase to address, but aren't. I am also looking at it as one of those in-between combatants who is missing big chunks of knowledge. Pushing it solely onto multiclass is ignoring player responsibility in a mess we have played a pretty significant role in creating, as well as our agency to address many of those aspects.

Dormancy WOULD need to be considered IC, because the skills are still there, not just the mechanics. It would need to be paired with some limitations on it (again, a cooldown on when you can activate skills/side hop, or a price to unlock and close the skills).

No one is arguing that you have no experience or knowledge on the matter, nor challenging your status as a leader in the combat world on both sides of the fence.

Multiclass is a part of the problem, but acting as if nothing can even be attempted or done about the rest of the issues that do not stem from multiclass is counter productive. They're two different problems that yes, overlap at points.

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Arbre-Today at 7:27 PM

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Ictinus — 11/01/2021

lim — Today at 10:38 PM

Arbre-Today at 7:27 PM

Lartus-Today at 7:16 PM

Karhast-Today at 7:01 PM

Ictinus — 11/01/2021

lim — Today at 10:38 PM