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Small Ideas - AIN'T NO COMBAT THREAD

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  • ObynObyn
    This has nothing to do with anyone hating or not hating anyone, just FYI.
  • IshinIshin Retired Lurker Virginia
    I'm just glad it wasn't me mad and submitting an issue about something like that. I'd be muted or shrubbed again, probably.
    Tell me and I forget, teach me and
    I remember, involve me and I
    learn.
    -Benjamin Franklin
  • JensenJensen Corruption's Butcher
    If I were an admin, I'd treat @Ishin like cops treat teenage drivers and just mute you on a whim
    image
    Haven
  • IshinIshin Retired Lurker Virginia
    Jensen said:

    If I were an admin, I'd treat @Ishin like cops treat teenage drivers and just mute you on a whim

    Sometimes I feel like they do T_T
    Tell me and I forget, teach me and
    I remember, involve me and I
    learn.
    -Benjamin Franklin
  • GwenithGwenith

    Politics
    AshmerRiluoAmbivalence
  • RiluoRiluo The Doctor
    edited October 2014
    hey @Razmael‌ @Oleis and the Gang.

    Could you lovely people please make the artefact:

    A sarcophagus talisman

    Please show the corpses in it because you love me so very much! Plus I can not see what I have stored in it? Thank you kindly

    Abhorash says, "Ve'kahi has proved that even bastards can earn their place."

    LimIshin
  • LimLim
    Riluo said:

    hey @Razmael‌ @Oleis and the Gang.

    Could you lovely people please make the artefact:

    A sarcophagus talisman

    Please show the corpses in it because you love me so very much! Plus I can not see what I have stored in it? Thank you kindly
    Seconded!

    While we're doing QoL changes, it would also be nice for Praes to get different message for each humour effusion. Right now, all three messages are the same for blood, phlegm and yellow bile.
    Riluo
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander Portland
    Forging hammer is basically mandatory to do forging worth buying. That's 750 credits on top of a full skillset, which makes the skillset not very appealing, especially to newer people who want to do a mercantile skill.

    What if the stats you can get via the forge hammer were made the baseline and instead of a bonus to stats, the hammer halved the commodity cost? That would be more in line with other tradeskill artifacts, as well, and would be that you could be a forger making stuff people want to buy without an immense investment.
    ElieInfinIshin
  • EleanorEleanor FOR SCIENCE
    The hammer isn't for a bonus to stats, it's for reducing crap rolls. It doesn't so much push up the ceiling as raise the floor.

    ArekaHaven
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander Portland
    That's the first time I've heard that. I've always been told that you forge higher numbers with the hammer. Each tempering seems to add a fairly standard number to the item, and the initial forging is a pre-set number based on the template. Where do the bad rolls come in? Tempering? I've never seen that whiff or anything like that.
  • LimLim
    Riluo said:
    hey @Razmael‌ @Oleis and the Gang. Could you lovely people please make the artefact:

    A sarcophagus talisman

    Please show the corpses in it because you love me so very much! Plus I can not see what I have stored in it? Thank you kindly
    Actually, I realised all the corpses are the same. Preserved corpses. What would be nice though would be to see how many you have in there.
    Riluo
  • EleanorEleanor FOR SCIENCE
    Yeah, I've talked hammer with the admins before, and that's how it works.

    ArekaHaven
  • ObynObyn
    In a round about way that does mean you forge higher stats. Since the floor is raised your average weapon quality goes up meaning higher stats in general.
  • ArekaAreka Drifting in a sea of wenches' bosoms
    edited October 2014
    I can do a fresh round of testing, but yes, it comes down to tempering. Tempering has a range of what it can boost each stat, and the hammer balances that more often than it doesn't. So instead of a 5 2 2 you're more likely to have a 5 4 4 temper, or a 5 3 3 instead of a 5 1

    I've forged 180s and 140/130s without a hammer, it just takes a lot more work to get there, so due to how it handles stats, it essentially does impact/halve commodity cost of forging.

    Edit: Though I think what is important to remember is that there is a hard ceiling on what can be forged, thus it's the bottom raising, not the top.
    image
  • JensenJensen Corruption's Butcher
    This is a likely no offense offense buuuut the hammer sounds terrible
    image
    Ishin
  • ArekaAreka Drifting in a sea of wenches' bosoms
    It's overpriced and has a rather staggering effect between hammered and non-hammered smiths.

    I think non-hammered stats could take looking at - there's a 20 point difference with split weapons (on a 140/130 split averaging as a 130/120 without a hammer - that is to say, average/most frequent I get when working on that build is a 138/127, without a hammer it's 128/117), which is pretty lame. Could split the difference for non-artied which would make things a lot more accessible and still have a boon for the hammer.

    With @moirean's halved commodity cost - this could be nice if paired with stat changes, since while this IS the case now, it's over a really long and tedious view, and it already takes quite a while to stock a shop, especially if dealing with multiple builds and really eyeing for specific stats and quality.

    I do think that the hammer should have a stat benefit over non-hammering, but that could be less of a draw and push to more utility options. Maybe a way to save tempering combinations and have it whail them all out at once with combined balance rate, rather than having to make macros and tink tink tink through each step.



    Though what I really want are just crafting shelves that work for forging designs. >>
    image
    MoireanErzsebet
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander Portland
    Jensen said:

    This is a likely no offense offense buuuut the hammer sounds terrible

    It really is kinda dumb. All other tradeskill artis are 400-450 credits, and just directly double the output (and in the case of gloves, speed up harvesting as well). Forging was fun to snag for the first hour where I was making designs and now I'm just like wow, I miss concoctions, this just took up my entire day online to make items. Good 1k+ credit investment. :(
  • JensenJensen Corruption's Butcher
    Lower the cost and decrease balance use

    Or
    Keep the cost but increase decay time plus higher combined stats than w/o hammer (not raising the maxes but giving higher points to the other 2 attributes than what's achievable without hammer)

    Or
    Same cost but guaranteed allocation of weapon stat points in 1 forge attempt
    image
    Areka
  • ArekaAreka Drifting in a sea of wenches' bosoms
    Option 2's already a thing except for decay time - increasing decay time would be nice though, would make multiple augments more reasonable.
    image
    Moirean
  • IshinIshin Retired Lurker Virginia
    So if that's what the hammer does, wtf does the racial +forging do?
    Tell me and I forget, teach me and
    I remember, involve me and I
    learn.
    -Benjamin Franklin
  • ArekaAreka Drifting in a sea of wenches' bosoms
    Racial forging's like hammer light. It stacks with hammer. Apprenticing + racial's also kind of like hammer, though hammer doesn't stack with apprenticing, so you don't need to apprentice/switch apprenticeships with a hammer.
    image
  • RasharRashar
    Woah what is this apprentice thing.
  • ArekaAreka Drifting in a sea of wenches' bosoms
    edited October 2014
    You can go to Thrummal and apprentice in blunt, thrown, or blades for an extra bit of tempering power.

    Edit: costs 10k gold to re-apprentice.

    EDIT EDIT:
    Apprentice (Forging) Known: Yes
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Usage: FORGING APPRENTICE
    FORGING RETRAIN

    Smithlord Thrummal, located near Delos, will take you under his
    tutelage.

    By apprenticing in an area, your forgings of that kind of item will
    consistently be improved.

    You can only be an apprentice in one field. You may retrain your
    apprenticeship whenever you wish, but it costs ten thousand gold each
    time.
    image
  • ArekaAreka Drifting in a sea of wenches' bosoms
    So I just ran some numbers, sets of 100 forgings.


    Extreme temper (damage tempers + heavy template or lightweight template + speed tempers)
    With Hammer: Average stats: 177/91/70 - Average Sum: 339
    Without Hammer: Average Stats: 164/85/65 - Average Sum: 314

    Split Temper (140/130 goal, honed template)
    With Hammer: Average stats: 138/75/127 - Average Sum: 341
    Without Hammer: Average stats: 130/70/120 - Average Sum: 321
    image
  • JensenJensen Corruption's Butcher
    out of curiousity, could you post the damage and speed differences for the 20ish pt differences between the sets?
    image
  • ArekaAreka Drifting in a sea of wenches' bosoms
    edited October 2014
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NKbhnJDeRLKXPBE0E_eBjZ_C7C8As-He0fn8pVJx_7U/edit?usp=sharing

    Multiple tabs there - one for each 100 forging test, then another three comparing side-by-side tempers with 10 forgings.
    image
  • JensenJensen Corruption's Butcher
    Sorry didnt qualify my question well enough. Could you use a top damage weapon and post the given damage and used balance time, and compare to the non hammer forged one? Same for a speed and balance comparison. I'd like to see what the actual gain on the client side is.
    image
  • ArekaAreka Drifting in a sea of wenches' bosoms
    What attack do you want, and statpack? I have +bal right now. Just a generic jab? Or DSK?
    image
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander Portland
    edited October 2014
    For SSL, you hit pretty crazy diminishing returns. From around 160 to 170 it's about .01 seconds faster. From 170 to 180 it's also .01 seconds faster. For weapons that can benefit from split stats, I tend to make most of my weapons 165ish speed or damage so there's overflow into the other stat, for better use across the board: ie halberd will deliver damage so there's a reason to put points into damage, versus dstab delivering none, so no reason to put points into damage for a dirk. I put a few speed/damage-only things up for sale just in case anyone wants them, but I personally would opt for the significantly extra damage and the .02 seconds slower. Curious to see if anyone will buy them.
  • ArekaAreka Drifting in a sea of wenches' bosoms
    edited October 2014
    Added a new tab, Combat Comparisons, with the results from JAB.


    Tried to paste, formatting sucks, grumpgrump.
    image
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