I am being ranty. And maybe some stuff about GMs/CLs.

Moirean · June 2014

I am kinda tired and grumpy and don't want to format stuff, so here's a repasted message with a bit more added.

This is probably a bit unorthodox, but I'm wondering if maybe the admin could plan time to have a chat with player leadership. There are a lot of changes in the works with Academies and the new newbie areas, and Slyphe is aiming for the new newbie guild quests. Right now stuff seems really hands off and quiet and, frankly, it's really depressing and dispiriting, since most (or all) of the feedback is just negative stuff. I'd really like to broach the idea of giving things like iron elite to player leaders - the amount of income you guys get from us player leaders is FAR FAR FAR MORE than worth a measly $25 per month - Spinesreach alone produced 1300 credits from the 5% sales from Lleian 416 to Chakros 420 - this is an absurdly high amount of RL money, ~$30k for 2 months. IG feedback for leadership happens never and approval/applause seems to be something Aet has no interest in doing, so perhaps a mechanical option would be good.

If giving out credit/elite rewards isn't something being considered, I highly suggest that communication still be pushed. Simply speaking to admin - especially on a calm, clear, clean channel - makes people feel better. TBH, I'd give CLs/GMs an orgleader channel to contact admin through for city/guild issue.

Beyond that, please, speak to us. Every time my game lags, I worry I have been banned - I was let back in on a very tenuous email and I just constantly twitch and panic. This isn't fun, I hate it. Please, just make stuff fun, I want to make the game fun for others, please make it fun for me and encourage me to keep playing. Atm, literally nothing about CL encourages me to login, save for a very broken, twisted sense of duty.

Oleis · June 2014

Have at it! If you post in this thread and you're not a city leader, guildmaster, or producer, I'm changing your password.

Iron Elite is an automatic no-go. Not something we can give away. Council channel would be acceptable if it didn't promote the sort of back channel OOC RP replacement that's already rampant on the forums and other means of communication.

You're not going to be banned without notice, nor will anyone else. The only time it's even a possibility is when something really, really egregious has happened.

Okay, what else? Remember the warning. If you don't belong here, I will straight up murder you. (But this is staying public on purpose)

Ezalor · June 2014

I'm all for having a "leaders" channel with the admin in it. I find that having the liaisons channel is -amazing- in able to freely and easily ask for admin/Divine help or input on something, oftentimes not even related to liaisons stuff.

Ishin · June 2014

I'm kinda with Moirean. I worry less about being banned, though, because even the one time I -was- shrubbed(mistakenly, I might add), Belakai was bro enough to send me either a msg or an email or something. Can't remember was too long ago >.>

I know that @Faerah sent in an email to Razmael with some guild-related stuff, but that was like, a month and a half ago. We still haven't heard anything back. I know the man's busy, but that's kind've a long time to go without hearing something back

And then we've got the thread that @Moirean mentioned that @Slyphe made, except last I checked only a handful of us GM's had posted in, and there was veeeery little feedback.

As far as like, 'paying' leaders and stuff...I'm not sure that's a really good idea with something like an iron elite. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'd fucking love for my membership to be free, lol, but I don't think that'd be in keeping with a solid business model. I know you guys kinda put guild credits in as a way to 'pay' us, but I'm pretty sure that every single guild uses that reservoir as a way to feed back into the guild and continue helping it grow. I know we Syssin do. A certain portion of that -does- come to gm/secs as a little pat on the back for doing good work. I think that, maybe if anything, you could take the amount a guild/city gets from credit purchases and give that directly to a GM as well. Like uh...the same percentage that is.

2014/06/04 02:06:17 - Credits: +5. Reason: Member purchase.
2014/06/04 02:06:18 - Credits: +5. Ishin. Reason: Member purchase.

If that helps clarify what I'm saying any.

Oleis · June 2014

I wanted to come expand a little bit now that I'm not phone-posting. If my previous post felt short, that's why.

I really do like the idea of a leaders' council channel. It's something I'll run by @Razmael and put in immediately, if he's feeling it too. @Ezalor is spot on about the usefulness of the liaison channel. Builders and Guides get it as well, to a smaller degree. There's going to be a burden on you guys to use it appropriately, but it could really simplify the process of getting important changes done because you get what you need based on who's actually there.

To be honest with you, I didn't even realize that we stopped giving credits to leaders when org credits became a thing. That's something we actually could do.

Ilyon · June 2014

A channel similar to LT would be interesting to see, as long as it's kept in check to ensure that it stays productive. Even LT can sometimes (very rarely, but still) devolve into arguments, and that's only 6 people - 20 people would be much worse.

Daskalos · June 2014

I've long said org leadership is the most thankless job in existence. For me, and I don't know about the others, but I was at one time proficient with the IRE prog basis, and it's easy enough to pick up that I know Eza and Moi can do it easily (dunno Trager's level at that sort of stuff, not knocking you bro!) but it would be nice to have some way to submit 'flavor' stuff easily and be able to do it. The other thing is that things are stupid expensive. 5 million gold... the things in HELP BUILDINGS aren't game breaking, and while nice features, the prices on them are completely unreasonable. In the past, it has been cheaper for us to use city credits and put it in a players name (hello, turret) than to pay with gold.

I'm all for spending city money, but I've always got this in the back of my mind thought of 'oh god if they bring back war and it's expensive we'll go broke if I spend too much' and so we don't end up putting in the things like regen rooms, et al because while nice for the citizenry (I'd love to make common gathering places, like Four Corners, have regens in it) it's a risk I haven't been willing to take.

A leaders channel I would love, because getting that communication is key. @Damariel‌ and @Dhar have generally been really awesome patrons, but I really, really hate bugging them with mundane stuff. I realize I'm rambling a bit, but back to the progs -- the manual is open for anyone, and back in ye olden days I would write them and email them in for implementation. Obviously it would require an approval process, but while I have no big interest in building a new area, I'd love to be free to do things for Enorian that I can't do without access to an orb of creation. Just a thought.

On the topic of paying leaders, I'd rather get access to custom cool items over credits. The moment you start paying leaders you'll have people wanting to be in leadership solely for the payment instead of the work they do. Give the leaders of the Luminary and Daru an amulet that makes it so they never run out of spark, give the Syssin GM farsee in phase, give the Bloodborn GM something that helps with blood, et cetera. Nothing combat breaking, just something unique. City leaders could get something like (non-combat) return to the city or something

Also, for the love of all that is holy let me transfer city credits without having to be IN The city.

I'd also love for CITY PROBATION to become a thing where it basically just takes away CT from people.

Areka · June 2014

I re-purposed one of the Templar clans to become the Leadership Liaison to try to fill this gap, at least as getting feedback from each other. Nobody really talks on it, often times as the things we need to hear back on or get some food for thought really are from Admin. I DO like that I've been able to post, if only a few, CLHELPs with (what I see as) useful info and food for thought for leadership positions. If we get an official channel, could it also be able to have its own helps/leadership-modified helps? I don't know how it works, but you guys could even just yoink the clan itself if that is feasible. Heavens know the guild really doesn't need five clans.

Ages and ages ago, Galleus was going to sit down with each guild's leadership and have a chat, look over progression, and work through some guild direction issues, answer questions, provide some insight, and so on. I personally would love it if this could happen still, and would find it very productive.

I have mixed feelings about leaders earning credits through purchases - one side of me is going "hel yeah I want me some cr", but the extra cr is something that may entice folk to just try to grab positions and then ignore orgs (and while you then say "Yes, but the org decides and if that's what they want that's their choice," it doesn't take coups into consideration and we've had some really ugly ones in the past that had folk quitting the game over how meta things were, and in the end, there's only so much you can do about the meta. It's something I'm particularly sensitive to, as I lost several friends through such. Vote weight helps, but it's still an easy system to game for the determined.)

I would also like to second the 'building stuff is so expensive' note for things, even with the research 'half off' thing which doesn't seem to REALLY be half off/could use clarity.

Edit: Also, guild sanctioning plz and for guild enemying to mean something other than another enemy on STAT.

Moirean · June 2014

Oh good, this post didn't come off as bad as I was worrying it did. I'm kinda at Piper's house and we kinda had a lot of wine. (Sorry the initial post sounds so ranty, tho

I was sharing this log with someone and it got me riled up).

I don't think payment would be as bad as we fear - GMs and CLs used to be paid and they are in other IREs, but now that credits are logged where they go and stuff, there's a real stigma for using them on yourself. IRE games are really built on this concept of player interaction and community, so it's in everyone's interests to motivate leaders to keep on keeping on, I'd think, and tossing out rewards would definitely help with that, I think - and it would free up the leaders to invest more time in orgs, instead of going out grinding gold and stuff. I like Ishin's suggestion, as it's not just a flat reward but something that rewards successful, active org leadership with higher rewards. That being said, sometimes you can't do anything about org credit purchases - Carnis, for example, don't get a ton of purchases whereas Sentinels, as the newest revamped class, get a lot more just naturally.

Areka · June 2014

That is true. I just worry about additional encouragement for people to be toxic to the game. I know that cannot always be helped.

I like the thought of special items, even if it's on top. The Syssin bow was always a cool touch, and while I don't always like dredging up other games, Lusternia does some neat things with special items for each of the guild electoral positions.

Ishin · June 2014

I miss that bow muchly, @Areka. I wish I still had it

Oleis · June 2014

I would enjoy Guildmaster tokens, as long as they have no mechanical advantage. They were my favorite part of guilds when I was new to this whole thing because they were super impressive. We can talk about that for sure.

Ishin · June 2014

The bow Syssin used to have was like uh...a level 1.5 damage-wise, but I think it still had normal darkbow accuracy. So it wasn't like, 'Oh hey Ishin, free artibow', but it was more like, 'Here's a darkbow that's special from Severn that does a little more dmg as a symbol of your office.'

Moirean · June 2014

They'd have to do something nifty, since we can get stuff on our own fairly easily as Aet is really versatile for player-created content already. For example, my soulstone is "The Commander's Soulstone" and I have a hidden ballpit next to my office. I bought/built that stuff for myself. The Benas have staffs already and, while they felt nice, they were never a super huge wow factor when I was a Bena.

Oleis · June 2014

Right, the advantage would be cosmetic. If the player-created version is preferable to that, no worries.

Moirean · June 2014

No, what I meant is that the special items would need progs or whatnot to make them have that extra ooh ahh factor above normal items - eg the Templar GM gets a banner and they can do something like RAISE BANNER and it'd give a room message and message to all Templars in the room about being inspired or whatever.

Areka · June 2014

Yeah, the Syssin bow was between a normal and level 1 artie bow, so a nice boost for a GM who didn't have the cr to invest in an artie, but not a gamebreaker or completely unfair advantage.

Hah, a banner.

Areka's great, hairy steed rises onto its hind legs with a rallying squeal, the Azudim thrusting a stick with - are those undergarments? - tied to the end into the air, waving it about to inspire her comrades onward.

Auresae · June 2014

Areka said:
the Azudim thrusting a stick with - are those undergarments? - tied to the end into the air

Camp Anawanna, we hold you in our hearts...

Trager · June 2014

Okay, where to start...

First, I am still very, very new to the leadership role. I make quite a few mistakes on an almost daily basis, both in my own opinion, and of course in the opinion of others. I will agree with Daskalos in saying it can (already finding) be a very strenuous, even thankless job, but it is one you are expected to perform above and beyond the last person. Now, I didn't truly understand that all when I took the mantles, but boy am I beginning to now.

While I am sure many of our long-term CL's/GM's both deserve and earned rewards, I'm still waiting to see how Trager's little 'reign' plays out. Unfortunately, I am not entirely hopeful this far, but we shall see in the long run.

Some of the issues I've had so far, and this sounds silly as unicorns, I am sure, is not really knowing what all is in the realm of possibility as a CL when it pertains to Gods/Admin. I know Trager has gotten a few really interesting ideas for different additions to Duiran, but who/how do I bring them up? Is it an OOC thing I bring up to admin? And IC thing? How can -Trager- build these things if enough interest is even shown? It's a big learning on your feet kind of thing, and I'm okay with that, but I do think some sort of medium where communication with the Admin is both viable/available.

I had a lot more to write out, but I'm relatively sure I could type questions for days and it would get extremely off-topic and I'd rather not appear as helpless just yet.

Omei · June 2014

Trager, I highly recommend you not think in terms of limitations, and let us tell you when you've overstepped your boundaries.

If you come up with something - anything - you may pitch it to Duiran's advisory. Depending on the scope, we may or may not approve, but a lot of the time we do, because we love seeing player ideas come to life. As for approaching us IC or OOC, that's kinda up to you. Moirean sends me OOC messages asking if I can move a building's primary exit, and I just whip over and do it in a few seconds. Not a big deal!

Moirean · June 2014

Any updates?

Faerah · June 2014

If Severn really is inactive, like I have been told he is (and like he seems to be), I would really like an active point-person I can talk to about Guild issues. We have two, very minor, Guildhall issues that we have been trying to get fixed for RL months, and I have a few more upcoming. I finally issued myself yesterday over one of them.

Perhaps there could be a central place for Guild/Org concerns to be filed where any active celani/admin can triage and take a look at them?

Haern · June 2014

Faerah said:
If Severn really is inactive, like I have been told he is (and like he seems to be), I would really like an active point-person I can talk to about Guild issues. We have two, very minor, Guildhall issues that we have been trying to get fixed for RL months, and I have a few more upcoming. I finally issued myself yesterday over one of them.

Perhaps there could be a central place for Guild/Org concerns to be filed where any active celani/admin can triage and take a look at them?

Toss them my way. I'll see what I can do.

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I am being ranty. And maybe some stuff about GMs/CLs.

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