Exterminations

Mephistoles · July 2014

Your argument relies on a false equivalence. That someone exterminating a room is like a hostile person invading your house that you paid for with credits. Know what it's actually like? A cosmetic/RP change being made to a room that you never visit.

Angwe · July 2014

I've been kinda side-eying @Elie up until that last post. She has a point, though.
So, @Elie. You're Duirani. I look forward to your presentation to the Council.

Aishia · July 2014

It's not like we HATE responding to it, I like it personally. Absolutely the only part of it that bothers me is people nuking as much as they possibly can then hiding/qqing/avoiding any conflict that comes of it. If it was just a couple rooms here and there for essence it certainly wouldn't be anything more than "Well I'll kill this person once if I see them around.". (I actually don't know how much it gives? Maybe the number needs to be increased and a limit put on how much you can do per day as per other resource boosting/recovery skills.) People were only being constantly pk'd when they were constantly exterminating. Or avoiding every death that could come of it and still proceeding to exterminate as much as possible.

Toz · July 2014

Elie said:
It's... not a realistic solution to RP out any one of a thousand thematic fixes that are initiated by player ideas and depend in some small fashion on the help of the divine who is sitting there sighing at you wishing you'd do exactly that?

'emote stops you from killing me'

Input that the next time you get jumped. See how it works. Mechanics will always trump RP. And unless I'm missing something drastic about how the liaison process works, most mechanical fixes don't involve an event.

If you want RP surrounding something mechanical, write some ideas up about the mechanical changes and share it here - I'm talking pure mechanics that need to change for this to be balanced. I don't care if it comes out of a smurf's ass, x, y, or z needs to be done regardless of how/who/why/where/what does it.

Elie · July 2014

If you want RP surrounding something mechanical... you RP. If your idea is good enough, and works with what the admin are doing, it often happens. Especially when they're watching you, waiting for you to do something useful.

Any sentence beginning with "if you want RP" should never, ever, ever end with "do something on the forums."

Seir · July 2014

Mephistoles said:
Your argument relies on a false equivalence. That someone exterminating a room is like a hostile person invading your house that you paid for with credits. Know what it's actually like? A cosmetic/RP change being made to a room that you never visit.

Er, it's not false equivalence or strawman at all. Toz explained very sufficiently as to why it's an issue. Want something more specific? Fine. It's why Bloodloch has responded with bounties when we jungled rooms. It's why they respond when Ciem is being raided. It's considered a given and an automatic obligation due to roleplay. You're essentially suggesting that Duiran ignore its roleplay and VERY purpose through ignoring an open, hostile act against nature and the rhythm. I can't believe we're even arguing this.

Haven · July 2014

Yeaaahh....

Rashar said:
Look, if @haven and I go and burn down the fucking forests, will you guys stop fucking talking about exterminate?

Jesus.

Fuck.

Already did, @Rashar. Got me a bounty and perma-enemy status from Duiran, slowpoke!

Toz · July 2014

Elie said:
If you want RP surrounding something mechanical... you RP. If your idea is good enough, and works with what the admin are doing, it often happens. Especially when they're watching you, waiting for you to do something useful.

Any sentence beginning with "if you want RP" should never, ever, ever end with "do something on the forums."

I'm the little Carnifex that can't even.

What SHOULD BE done is something that, I think, is very much up for debate. If you want to RP SOMETHING THAT RESULTS IN A MECHANICAL FIX, then you should perhaps JOIN IN WHAT IS AN ATTEMPT AT A MECHANICAL DISCUSSION. I don't know where the color buttons are for this forums, or I'd color the key points.

1) Something needs to be changed.
2) Something MECHANICAL needs to be changed.
3) The extent/scope of mechanical changes for balanced conflict is something that I don't think has been discussed much, despite attempts otherwise - it mostly devolves into screaming EMOTE AT THEM and IGNORE THEM. Neither of which is going to change anything mechanical at all.

What can be changed to make it viable? See my post about possible fixes.

Hell, make it like a lesser that only forestals/Indorani can participate in. There are options. There are options that, perhaps, need to actually be discussed by players so admin can get a judgement on where things stand - I'm pretty confident that this is a player-driven environment. But if the players are trying to drive it while screaming, pointing in the wrong direction and hanging out of the Jeep, we're probably going to crash.

Rashar · July 2014

Feeling compelled to rejuvenate the forest, when there is no real need mechanically or ICly to do so? You guys are so stupid.

Why, that's almost as bad as feeling compelled to care who the fuck has acquired your Syssin skills, or who is giving them away.

Surely, we can come up with alternatives here.

Mephistoles · July 2014

Seir said:
Your argument relies on a false equivalence. That someone exterminating a room is like a hostile person invading your house that you paid for with credits. Know what it's actually like? A cosmetic/RP change being made to a room that you never visit.

Er, it's not false equivalence or strawman at all.

You'll notice that I never said it was a straw man. It is still a false equivalence. You don't have to RP it the way you do. You're not being forced to do that. You just don't want to change you RP at all.

And that's fine. You don't want to change your RP. But if my RP was that I attacked everyone who hunted Xoral, it wouldn't be very reasonable for me to complain that people were forcing me to attack them or respond with hostility when they hunted Xoral because that was my RP. You're not being forced into that.

Seir · July 2014

Mephistoles said:

Seir said:
Your argument relies on a false equivalence. That someone exterminating a room is like a hostile person invading your house that you paid for with credits. Know what it's actually like? A cosmetic/RP change being made to a room that you never visit.
Er, it's not false equivalence or strawman at all.

You'll notice that I never said it was a straw man. It is still a false equivalence. You don't have to RP it the way you do. You're not being forced to do that. You just don't want to change you RP at all.

And that's fine. You don't want to change your RP. But if my RP was that I attacked everyone who hunted Xoral, it wouldn't be very reasonable for me to complain that people were forcing me to attack them or respond with hostility when they hunted Xoral because that was my RP. You're not being forced into that.

By your same logic, comparing an extermination to someone hunting Xoral is false equivalence and it IS strawman. You're comparing apples to oranges and have in both arguments. There is a very compelling and in-depth reasoning as to why forestals will react to someone exterminating the forest. I mean, jesus, the word FOREST is in their name. Someone hunting Xoral is nowhere even remotely close.

Oleis couldn't have been closer to the truth where he argued something along the lines of spirit and shadow never agreeing on anything despite something being blatantly obvious. Good lord, people.

Elie · July 2014

Toz said:

Elie said:
If you want RP surrounding something mechanical... you RP. If your idea is good enough, and works with what the admin are doing, it often happens. Especially when they're watching you, waiting for you to do something useful.

Any sentence beginning with "if you want RP" should never, ever, ever end with "do something on the forums."
I'm the little Carnifex that can't even.

What SHOULD BE done is something that, I think, is very much up for debate. If you want to RP SOMETHING THAT RESULTS IN A MECHANICAL FIX, then you should perhaps JOIN IN WHAT IS AN ATTEMPT AT A MECHANICAL DISCUSSION. I don't know where the color buttons are for this forums, or I'd color the key points.

1) Something needs to be changed.
2) Something MECHANICAL needs to be changed.
3) The extent/scope of mechanical changes for balanced conflict is something that I don't think has been discussed much, despite attempts otherwise - it mostly devolves into screaming EMOTE AT THEM and IGNORE THEM. Neither of which is going to change anything mechanical at all.

Never said "emote at them." You should probably emote at the people who are waiting to help you improve your gaming experience - namely, the gods. Incidentally, those same people have many times said that complaining on the forums is the LEAST efficient way to see your will done.

Mephistoles · July 2014

It's my real life RP to reply rationally whenever someone gives a bad argument on the forums. You're forcing me to reply. I can't change my RP.

Do you see how this becomes absurd? You can choose to RP or respond differently. I mean, unless you're actually implying that you're completely incapable of doing that. Which I hope isn't what you're trying to imply.

Seir · July 2014

Elie said:

Toz said:

Elie said:
If you want RP surrounding something mechanical... you RP. If your idea is good enough, and works with what the admin are doing, it often happens. Especially when they're watching you, waiting for you to do something useful.

Any sentence beginning with "if you want RP" should never, ever, ever end with "do something on the forums."
I'm the little Carnifex that can't even.

What SHOULD BE done is something that, I think, is very much up for debate. If you want to RP SOMETHING THAT RESULTS IN A MECHANICAL FIX, then you should perhaps JOIN IN WHAT IS AN ATTEMPT AT A MECHANICAL DISCUSSION. I don't know where the color buttons are for this forums, or I'd color the key points.

1) Something needs to be changed.
2) Something MECHANICAL needs to be changed.
3) The extent/scope of mechanical changes for balanced conflict is something that I don't think has been discussed much, despite attempts otherwise - it mostly devolves into screaming EMOTE AT THEM and IGNORE THEM. Neither of which is going to change anything mechanical at all.

Never said "emote at them." You should probably emote at the people who are waiting to help you improve your gaming experience - namely, the gods. Incidentally, those same people have many times said that complaining on the forums is the LEAST efficient way to see your will done.

Except, you're missing the point. Any kind of solution that takes the power of IC resolution away from the players and puts it in the hands of the administration is a bad solution. The point is that Gods shouldn't need to get involved and if they do, then clearly there is an issue. This is a mechanical issue which is an OOC issue for the administration to resolve if necessary, not an IC one.

Aishia · July 2014

Be more productive or less spammy.

Toz · July 2014

Mephistoles said:

You don't want to change [b]your[/b] RP.
[u]But if my RP was that I attacked everyone who hunted Xoral, it wouldn't be very reasonable for me to complain that people were forcing me to attack them or respond with hostility when they hunted Xoral because that was my RP.[/u] [i]You're not being forced into that.[/i]

Bold: It's Duiran's RP.
Quote from HELP DUIRAN:
"...the Duiran Council is uncompromising in its stance against the threat of all that is unnatural to the wilds."
Exterm is heavily unnatural.
"Above all, they fight to ensure the wilderness is allowed to run its due course by any means necessary."
Bonus quote!

Underline:
You wanna talk false equivalences, here's one for you. Look at how the defending of Aurer Haven was handled vs the defending of Tainhelm. Enorian has history defending that city. They're allied. Enorian is permitted 100% to kill anyone bashing there. Aurer Haven has no such setup, and Dwodin was allowed to be killed until he quit RPing defense. There IS a difference, an admin-supported one, in org RP and individual RP.

EDIT: You know what, I hate these forums. That's my rage. How the eff do you bold stuff. And where did my italics post go.

@Elie: I'm not complaining, I'm attempting to get a mechanical discussion about a possible fix that would leave things in balance instead of in a state of one-sided mechanical acts. Apparently in order to do so, I need to explain why Duiran should even exist in the first place, re-invent the wheel, explain why forestals protect the forest (to the player of a forestal...?) and eavesdrop @Haven and @Rashar flirting.

EDIT 2:
@Mephistoles‌ how do you handle recursion..?

Elie · July 2014

I'm a forestal who doesn't give a crap about that particular forest. See? It is possible.

Seir · July 2014

Mephistoles said:
It's my real life RP to reply rationally whenever someone gives a bad argument on the forums. You're forcing me to reply. I can't change my RP.

Do you see how this becomes absurd? You can choose to RP or respond differently. I mean, unless you're actually implying that you're completely incapable of doing that. Which I hope isn't what you're trying to imply.

Except you're not being logical at all. Your solution is that forestals ignore their established roleplay because you're under some erroneous presumption that their roleplay allows them to ignore a blatant attack of nature and by extension: 'the Rhythm'. Something that they are sworn to preserve and defend in every single oath they swear to city, guild, and sometimes Order. So while I appreciate your thinly veiled jab, I'm compelled to go raid the Teradrim guildhall, but clearly Meph is under no IC compulsion to go defend it, right? Clearly, if I changed to Shaman and spread my overgrowth all over the place, Meph is under no IC obligation to do anything, right? That's essentially what you're arguing and no offense, it's one of the silliest arguments I've ever heard in the 10+ years I've played IRE.

Edit: @Elie: Then you're probably in the wrong organization since your character has taken an oath to Duiran stating to defend nature and the rhythm at all costs.

Elie · July 2014

Seir said:

Except, you're missing the point. Any kind of solution that takes the power of IC resolution away from the players and puts it in the hands of the administration is a bad solution. The point is that Gods shouldn't need to get involved and if they do, then clearly there is an issue. This is a mechanical issue which is an OOC issue for the administration to resolve if necessary, not an IC one.

So... any kind of solution that takes the power of IC resolution away from the players and puts it in the hands of the administration is a bad solution....

And therefore, to solve this problem, we should take the power of IC resolution away from the players and put it in the hands of the administration?

Edit: Loving the "if you don't RP a forestal the way I think you should, you're in the wrong org." I remember a time when people said that to you all day long, @Seir.

Xavin · July 2014

@Elie what he's saying is that conflict-resolution often needs to have a mechanic attached or else it loops forever. A good example is the old war system. It was clear conflict with clear endpoint resolution, though it had its own flaws which is why the war system was removed.

I honestly think that is all that is wanted by at least one side here - a clear resolution to the conflict. Not some 'well, ignore it' or 'well rp something and hope the admin bite'.

Mephistoles · July 2014

Seir said:
Except you're not being logical at all. Your solution is that forestals ignore their established roleplay because you're under some erroneous presumption that their roleplay allows them to ignore a blatant attack of nature and by extension: 'the Rhythm'. Something that they are sworn to preserve and defend in every single oath they swear to city, guild, and sometimes Order. So while I appreciate your thinly veiled jab, I'm compelled to go raid the Teradrim guildhall, but clearly Meph is under no IC compulsion to go defend it, right? Clearly, if I changed to Shaman and spread my overgrowth all over the place, Meph is under no IC obligation to do anything, right? That's essentially what you're arguing and no offense, it's one of the silliest arguments I've ever heard in the 10+ years I've played IRE.

You've got the bad habit of putting words in my mouth. I didn't say people had to ignore anything. But your character can change their perspective. "Nature is much greater and stronger than me" "Nature isn't something that I need to protect" "I idealize specific aspects of nature but not nature as a whole" "I really only care about swamps because I'm a grook" "The Rhythm is something beyond nature so I don't care about that patch of forest".

There are lots of different viewpoints you could take, you just refuse to do so. Bottom line, if you're not having fun with your RP it's a much better solution to change the way that you are RPing than demand that everyone around you change.

Seir · July 2014

Er, no one has ever said anything along those lines to me. I've said that you should never have your character completely embody the tenets of a city, guild, or Order completely because they'd lack personality or be cliched with the exception of having a personality or compulsions that run in opposition to your organization's beliefs. (Which ignoring an extermination on a forest would be).

Also, I really enjoy when random newbies out themselves as blatant alts as if that gives credibility to their argument at all.

Elie · July 2014

In this case, it's not credibility that it lends to this argument - it's hilarity. And I outed myself a long time ago. But feel free to hit me up on AIM if it bothers you; we haven't talked in a while!

Toz · July 2014

Kay, tell you what. Since nobody here wants to play mechanics talk, I'm just going to liaison fixes.

EDIT: And oh man, here come the flags.

Xavin · July 2014

@Toz I'm all for playing mechanics talk. But the liaison method will likely yield the best results.

Areka · July 2014

liaison new survival Wenchcall
liaison 11473 problem Tempers rise too quickly and problem solving becomes impossible as rage-boners become too large to operate around.
liaison 11473 solution 1 I propose a new skill, WENCHCALL, which when used will summon a flexible wench to tend to necessaries and restore blood flow.
liaison 11473 submit

Toz · July 2014

Areka said:
liaison new survival Wenchcall
liaison 11473 problem Tempers rise too quickly and problem solving becomes impossible as rage-boners become too large to operate around.
liaison 11473 solution 1 I propose a new skill, WENCHCALL, which when used will summon a flexible wench to tend to necessaries and restore blood flow.
liaison 11473 submit

Isn't this functionality already there? Something something haven sex with fisherwoman

Daweson · July 2014

Ok...I haven't jumped in on a discussion but I feel compelled to point out something critical that I feel is being missed.

Elie isn't saying "RP at them" to get them to stop exterminating and get a mechanical fix. That, I think we all agree, would be ridiculous.

What Elie is saying, that I agree with, is "Hey guys...you have a Divine watclhing...RP something that you want to happen to give them a reason to add a mechanical fix."

Examples were given like Summoning Dendara yadda yadda, I won't repeat it.

The point being made is the Admins have clearly shown a willingness to add stuff to accommodate RP, and a decided *unwillingness* to change stuff due to whinging on the forums.

Why not take the path of least resistance?

edited because I re-read and the English teacher in my head said "The admin's what?" Doh.

Elie · July 2014

Rashar · July 2014

He's actually riding a moped in the rest of the picture. It just got cropped out.

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