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Losing My Religion: Thoughts on Current Religious System
I shall try to indicate the several points in the current Order system under different subtitles:
No Cult Creation : Consider a case of a populous Order. The God or the set of people presiding over it, keep the leash of the Order so tight, there is no room for theological interpretation. There is no theological conflict on this God because they can appear and disprove you even. Even if you are a group of 5 or more, you cannot go about your way and preach another interpretation, which would cause inter-Order conflict. That leads to stagnation and lack of action. In a more healthier system, cults would be created and maintained. Cults would be vying for supremacy over each other. Of course, cult system means less direct Gods, but more mortal touch to the topic. And before anyone says, Aetolia has a small playerbase for this, cult system has been tried for games with far lesser populations and it was an adequate success.
Greek Gods Inequality: Let us face it, God characters are the superstars of Aetolia (and they used to be other games' as well at some point i.e MKO) and interacting with them (depending on the person behind it) may be exhilarating or sucky. Also this creates an inequality about that more visible Gods have more vibrant orders while dormant or less interested Gods will have a weaker following, because all of the players want to feel the touch of the superstar. And it is not possible to maintain all God-shells with top-quality. As a side thought gods speaking only to their order through omens/visions and rather then using their omnipotent shells strutting around, would make a better approach. Greek Gods stuff is beyond its expiration date.
Divine Words Carry Weight: Exactly, when you see a Divine being so chummy chummy with players and starting to conflict on Its own logic, then they try to pull "I am omnipotent!" card. It really kills the whole atmosphere. Also, when some Gods disregardingly say one thing or another, it affects the world because usual players will take God-word as absolute and then act accordingly. That creates more trouble then it is worth.
Holy Wars Are Scarce: The title itself is clear, they are scarce because there is no danger for an Order to lose their privileges if some miscreant defiled one shrine or another. There is ABSOLUTELY no point to start a war beside then utter boredom (then cover it with some RP exchanges) and even those boredom wars will end quite fast, because there are no objectives, you cannot make your God more influential on the Material Plane, you are not making any change. Throughout my time, I realized that a good number of Aetolian players are extremely averse to player-driven conflict. Hence they should be encouraged with proper tools to create player-driven conflict. Over and over, I have seen that players are more energetic when they are presented with player-danger instead of admin-crafted danger. So, a cult will rise? Why not have tools? It will rise and perhaps eat the old/corrupted/dormant order. Or they will be locked in a stalemate and come to a certain agreement. More RP, more conflict, more fun!
No Cult Creation : Consider a case of a populous Order. The God or the set of people presiding over it, keep the leash of the Order so tight, there is no room for theological interpretation. There is no theological conflict on this God because they can appear and disprove you even. Even if you are a group of 5 or more, you cannot go about your way and preach another interpretation, which would cause inter-Order conflict. That leads to stagnation and lack of action. In a more healthier system, cults would be created and maintained. Cults would be vying for supremacy over each other. Of course, cult system means less direct Gods, but more mortal touch to the topic. And before anyone says, Aetolia has a small playerbase for this, cult system has been tried for games with far lesser populations and it was an adequate success.
Greek Gods Inequality: Let us face it, God characters are the superstars of Aetolia (and they used to be other games' as well at some point i.e MKO) and interacting with them (depending on the person behind it) may be exhilarating or sucky. Also this creates an inequality about that more visible Gods have more vibrant orders while dormant or less interested Gods will have a weaker following, because all of the players want to feel the touch of the superstar. And it is not possible to maintain all God-shells with top-quality. As a side thought gods speaking only to their order through omens/visions and rather then using their omnipotent shells strutting around, would make a better approach. Greek Gods stuff is beyond its expiration date.
Divine Words Carry Weight: Exactly, when you see a Divine being so chummy chummy with players and starting to conflict on Its own logic, then they try to pull "I am omnipotent!" card. It really kills the whole atmosphere. Also, when some Gods disregardingly say one thing or another, it affects the world because usual players will take God-word as absolute and then act accordingly. That creates more trouble then it is worth.
Holy Wars Are Scarce: The title itself is clear, they are scarce because there is no danger for an Order to lose their privileges if some miscreant defiled one shrine or another. There is ABSOLUTELY no point to start a war beside then utter boredom (then cover it with some RP exchanges) and even those boredom wars will end quite fast, because there are no objectives, you cannot make your God more influential on the Material Plane, you are not making any change. Throughout my time, I realized that a good number of Aetolian players are extremely averse to player-driven conflict. Hence they should be encouraged with proper tools to create player-driven conflict. Over and over, I have seen that players are more energetic when they are presented with player-danger instead of admin-crafted danger. So, a cult will rise? Why not have tools? It will rise and perhaps eat the old/corrupted/dormant order. Or they will be locked in a stalemate and come to a certain agreement. More RP, more conflict, more fun!
Kalak
1
Re: Losing My Religion: Thoughts on Current Religious System
So. A bunch of issues with all these points.
Cults: These don't exist for a number of reasons. The reality is the player base is too small to accommodate it. There are already a few orders with quite a few people in them, why would you want to split them up further? And if you were to actually look at each god's principles, all of them can have broad enough interpretations to accommodate pretty much any type of RP you can think of. It makes order members a little more varied while still ensuring members have a common belief and goals. The only time I've seen gods step in and tell you you're worshipping Them wrong or that you're not in line with Their principles is if you're doing something you really shouldn't be. Seriously. Look at any order and you'll find a really huge range in types of people in it.
Holy wars: If you've played long enough to have participated in a holy war, you'd know how extremely unpleasant they are for everyone involved. They often get dragged out, they often get griefy because (as much as I hate to say it) people are terrible at showing restraint or knowing when to dial things back, people complain, and it's often between orders where there is a massive disparity in strength/numbers. And more often than not, holy wars aren't worth the work you're forced to put in.
The nature of gods: So. One thing to remember about this game is that interaction is king, and is what keeps things interesting and active. Having gods be visible on WHO list is like players making themselves visible on WHO list - its an invitation for other players to interact with you. Yes, orders are highly exclusive and pretty much a foot in the door for divine interaction, but gods are manned by players too.
I'm of the opinion that god visibility and interaction needs to have a balance. Sure, having gods shout at each other and doing stuff on a large scale is neat, or having them interact with their orders, but having gods mess with people randomly is also insanely fun, both for the gods and the mortals involved. You don't want gods that are completely silent or invisible or too detached.
As a general note, if you talk to anyone who's been in the Pools and played a god role, all of them will tell you how thankless it is, how much crap you take from players, and how stressful it can be. And being a god is something you don't get paid for in any capacity whatsoever. While you get a great deal of freedom in the things you can do, events you can run, you also take on a lot more responsibility. And with that extra responsibility, there are certain restrictions on what you can do, how far you can take things. You become directly influential in the enjoyment a lot of players have in the game.
Cults: These don't exist for a number of reasons. The reality is the player base is too small to accommodate it. There are already a few orders with quite a few people in them, why would you want to split them up further? And if you were to actually look at each god's principles, all of them can have broad enough interpretations to accommodate pretty much any type of RP you can think of. It makes order members a little more varied while still ensuring members have a common belief and goals. The only time I've seen gods step in and tell you you're worshipping Them wrong or that you're not in line with Their principles is if you're doing something you really shouldn't be. Seriously. Look at any order and you'll find a really huge range in types of people in it.
Holy wars: If you've played long enough to have participated in a holy war, you'd know how extremely unpleasant they are for everyone involved. They often get dragged out, they often get griefy because (as much as I hate to say it) people are terrible at showing restraint or knowing when to dial things back, people complain, and it's often between orders where there is a massive disparity in strength/numbers. And more often than not, holy wars aren't worth the work you're forced to put in.
The nature of gods: So. One thing to remember about this game is that interaction is king, and is what keeps things interesting and active. Having gods be visible on WHO list is like players making themselves visible on WHO list - its an invitation for other players to interact with you. Yes, orders are highly exclusive and pretty much a foot in the door for divine interaction, but gods are manned by players too.
I'm of the opinion that god visibility and interaction needs to have a balance. Sure, having gods shout at each other and doing stuff on a large scale is neat, or having them interact with their orders, but having gods mess with people randomly is also insanely fun, both for the gods and the mortals involved. You don't want gods that are completely silent or invisible or too detached.
As a general note, if you talk to anyone who's been in the Pools and played a god role, all of them will tell you how thankless it is, how much crap you take from players, and how stressful it can be. And being a god is something you don't get paid for in any capacity whatsoever. While you get a great deal of freedom in the things you can do, events you can run, you also take on a lot more responsibility. And with that extra responsibility, there are certain restrictions on what you can do, how far you can take things. You become directly influential in the enjoyment a lot of players have in the game.
Re: Producer's Producering
And, perhaps some hints as to what's planned for the next new class?Jesters.
Razmael
5
Re: MAD 2: MADDEN'S MADDENING.
It isn't so much as sweeping things under the rug as much as it is ensuring the forums do not become a place of toxicity for issues that are game related, especially when there are tools in place for game related issues. The forums is intended to be a coming together of the community, a place where bias, personal opinions and issues can be left at the door so the players can build a more constructive Aetolia.
The intention of this thread, in particular, was created for players to share their real-life woes and gripes.
The intention of this thread, in particular, was created for players to share their real-life woes and gripes.
Kyna
8
Re: MAD 2: MADDEN'S MADDENING.
Remember, this thread IS supposed to be specifically NOT aetolia-based MADs, because Aetolia-based rage threads invariable turn ugly.
(things like "Oh man, darn me and my gauntlet!" are fine and so far no one has been a jerk to each other, which is great, just reminding/informing the new people just in case)
(things like "Oh man, darn me and my gauntlet!" are fine and so far no one has been a jerk to each other, which is great, just reminding/informing the new people just in case)
Zaila
4
Re: Changes to Gold Drops
Um, so I couldn't figure out how to spoiler, soz. *shakes fist at the new forums*
I have my views on the market but most of them have been addressed by @Ezalor and @Larion. Instead, I wanted to mention how as an administrative character with limited rl funds, my perspective on this situation varies from that of the higher rollers. There seems to be this "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" perception that I find to be equal parts confusing and counterproductive. Furthermore, I have concerns regarding the primary gold source in Aetolia being cut down to 1/10th, and then having it explained away with -- at least the way I perceive it -- limited, overly competitive earning potential that will be inherent in leftover income streams.
What I do in Aetolia:
------------------------
I am by no means a "casual player", before the holidays I was averaging 40+ hours on Aetolia doing a frightening (heh) amount of work for the city and the guild. Right now I'm planning the Obsidian Tournament with @Atarah which will host both RP and other events for the Syssin, as an example. Nearly all of my time is devoted to the Syssin and Spinesreach - the rare times that I'm not working on city and guild stuff, I'm growing my design list for my shop, as well as pursuing personal RP goals that I've been working toward since I first made my character (lookin' at you Ilstrem Clan). However, I'm no stranger to going out and grinding for gold.
Perceptions & Misconceptions of the "Casual Player":
----------------------------------------------------------
Let me start off by saying that I agree that the integrity of organizations, valuable game mechanics including gold drops, and other vital parts of the game SHOULD NOT be sacrificed in favor of a player who can only play the game for 20ish hours per week, or whatever. I think there are several different types of people who play the game for varying reasons. I think there has to be a balance struck between all the classifications, all the way from the Administrator, the Combatant/Ylem Fanatic/Hunter, the Merchant, the Newbie/Aspiring Character, to the Casual Player, the Higher Roller, and everyone in between.
Gold Drop/Economy Issues:
----------------------------------
Immersion vs. Accommodation: If the Gods/Admin accommodate the Casuals who aren't as committed to the game, they degrade immersing elements into problematic aspects that work to shove more serious players away. If the admin thought chests were encroaching on immersion, I would understand making some items even more rare but still having them be somewhat accessible, limiting relic credit trade-ins to one or so credit(s), converting some items with credit trade-in values found in chests to modest gold trade-ins instead (similar to the gold delivery mechanic used by the auction), lowering gold drops to 1/2, or even limiting the amount of chests that are available in the shop as someone has already mentioned.
Hell, even doing all of them would've been constructive, not only for players of all interests since the gold sink would exist/there would be more opportunities for non-High Rollers to invest in, but it would also be good for the Admin since getting to endgame or gaining excessive amounts of credits/gold would be much more difficult. Conversely, credit sales would likely go UP since the people already here would feel more engaged, and the economy would still attract people to the game, which would encourage more people to stick around and invest in their characters.
The market wouldn't have suffered such an abrupt change, causing everyone who ISN'T the High Roller to do 10x the work via hunting, or detracting away from their goals in the game to compete for what will now be highly sought after quests. To me, this is pretty simple: limited amount of quests + High Rollers + everyone else + cut in gold drops and limited financial opportunity in chests - ability of most of us to buy enough credits to earn a significant amount + a declining credit market icly = limited opportunities for everyone who isn't a Higher Roller.
My Final Take, Somewhat of a TL;DR:
-------------------------------------------
Speaking as an Administrator and Merchant who has been part of this game for many years, this is my first character to get to endgame. My other characters are lvl 83, and my oldest main is lvl 81. I love to craft, and yet have ever only had one crafting skill under one old main. Now? - I have 5. It wasn't gold drops alone that had me to get lvl 100, get a shop, invest 1,200 city/guild/membership/impulse credits to beef her up this time - it was the economy as a whole, coupled with the opportunity that chests represented, and (rare) active organizations (Thanks for being awesome Syssin & Spinesreach!) despite the conflicted messages the Admin send via accommodating the Casual player for so long. I never wanted to be a Higher Roller necessarily, but I wanted to experiment with multiple crafting skills, own a shop, be an administrator, and pursue personal RP goals. If the economy wasn't great and the opportunities that chests represented didn't exist, I doubt that Aetolia would've tempted me back after two years of being mostly AFK.
A few people have shared similar stories and I think they're valid. Changing the economy to benefit basically no one, including the people with an extreme amount of gold, doesn't give the players OR the Admin what they need from this dynamic...it just pisses everyone off and works against the progress you were all building. I remember typing QW and having to enter MORE to see who was online back then because there was so much activity, even though I was broke as hell, and I very much doubt the newer players know what that looks like in Aet, even during peak time of the day. Moving forward, we need to address all of these problems if we want to not only sustain Aetolia, but to push the game past even its original level of activity.
I have my views on the market but most of them have been addressed by @Ezalor and @Larion. Instead, I wanted to mention how as an administrative character with limited rl funds, my perspective on this situation varies from that of the higher rollers. There seems to be this "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" perception that I find to be equal parts confusing and counterproductive. Furthermore, I have concerns regarding the primary gold source in Aetolia being cut down to 1/10th, and then having it explained away with -- at least the way I perceive it -- limited, overly competitive earning potential that will be inherent in leftover income streams.
What I do in Aetolia:
------------------------
I am by no means a "casual player", before the holidays I was averaging 40+ hours on Aetolia doing a frightening (heh) amount of work for the city and the guild. Right now I'm planning the Obsidian Tournament with @Atarah which will host both RP and other events for the Syssin, as an example. Nearly all of my time is devoted to the Syssin and Spinesreach - the rare times that I'm not working on city and guild stuff, I'm growing my design list for my shop, as well as pursuing personal RP goals that I've been working toward since I first made my character (lookin' at you Ilstrem Clan). However, I'm no stranger to going out and grinding for gold.
Perceptions & Misconceptions of the "Casual Player":
----------------------------------------------------------
Let me start off by saying that I agree that the integrity of organizations, valuable game mechanics including gold drops, and other vital parts of the game SHOULD NOT be sacrificed in favor of a player who can only play the game for 20ish hours per week, or whatever. I think there are several different types of people who play the game for varying reasons. I think there has to be a balance struck between all the classifications, all the way from the Administrator, the Combatant/Ylem Fanatic/Hunter, the Merchant, the Newbie/Aspiring Character, to the Casual Player, the Higher Roller, and everyone in between.
Gold Drop/Economy Issues:
----------------------------------
Immersion vs. Accommodation: If the Gods/Admin accommodate the Casuals who aren't as committed to the game, they degrade immersing elements into problematic aspects that work to shove more serious players away. If the admin thought chests were encroaching on immersion, I would understand making some items even more rare but still having them be somewhat accessible, limiting relic credit trade-ins to one or so credit(s), converting some items with credit trade-in values found in chests to modest gold trade-ins instead (similar to the gold delivery mechanic used by the auction), lowering gold drops to 1/2, or even limiting the amount of chests that are available in the shop as someone has already mentioned.
Hell, even doing all of them would've been constructive, not only for players of all interests since the gold sink would exist/there would be more opportunities for non-High Rollers to invest in, but it would also be good for the Admin since getting to endgame or gaining excessive amounts of credits/gold would be much more difficult. Conversely, credit sales would likely go UP since the people already here would feel more engaged, and the economy would still attract people to the game, which would encourage more people to stick around and invest in their characters.
The market wouldn't have suffered such an abrupt change, causing everyone who ISN'T the High Roller to do 10x the work via hunting, or detracting away from their goals in the game to compete for what will now be highly sought after quests. To me, this is pretty simple: limited amount of quests + High Rollers + everyone else + cut in gold drops and limited financial opportunity in chests - ability of most of us to buy enough credits to earn a significant amount + a declining credit market icly = limited opportunities for everyone who isn't a Higher Roller.
My Final Take, Somewhat of a TL;DR:
-------------------------------------------
Speaking as an Administrator and Merchant who has been part of this game for many years, this is my first character to get to endgame. My other characters are lvl 83, and my oldest main is lvl 81. I love to craft, and yet have ever only had one crafting skill under one old main. Now? - I have 5. It wasn't gold drops alone that had me to get lvl 100, get a shop, invest 1,200 city/guild/membership/impulse credits to beef her up this time - it was the economy as a whole, coupled with the opportunity that chests represented, and (rare) active organizations (Thanks for being awesome Syssin & Spinesreach!) despite the conflicted messages the Admin send via accommodating the Casual player for so long. I never wanted to be a Higher Roller necessarily, but I wanted to experiment with multiple crafting skills, own a shop, be an administrator, and pursue personal RP goals. If the economy wasn't great and the opportunities that chests represented didn't exist, I doubt that Aetolia would've tempted me back after two years of being mostly AFK.
A few people have shared similar stories and I think they're valid. Changing the economy to benefit basically no one, including the people with an extreme amount of gold, doesn't give the players OR the Admin what they need from this dynamic...it just pisses everyone off and works against the progress you were all building. I remember typing QW and having to enter MORE to see who was online back then because there was so much activity, even though I was broke as hell, and I very much doubt the newer players know what that looks like in Aet, even during peak time of the day. Moving forward, we need to address all of these problems if we want to not only sustain Aetolia, but to push the game past even its original level of activity.
Eydis
8
Re: Tone of Aetolia
The tone of Aetolia in my opinion is very drab, uneventful, and boring. In both RP and PK. Stale, if you will.
RP is very boring anymore because most times, its already all drawn out. You already know where you're going. And with most world events, you already know exactly how its going to end. The Bloom? We all knew what was going to happen... So I stayed in my haven for 3 days until the 'cure' was found and then just read the news for the cure, did what I had to and went about my business.
Roleplay with other players is very boring and uneventful as well. More times than not, I hear talk about people going, "This is what I want to happen." If you're already scouting out the end of your roleplay arc and refuse to accept any deviation, that's no fun. When I roleplayed in Imperian, I just winged it. I roleplayed with almost the entire playerbase and just went with it. THAT was fun. I had no idea who I was going to talk to, what about, what would be said. I had no expectations. And the character that was molded was absolutely fantastic! But here in Aetolia, everything is planned out. And then you have all the cliques and the requirements to join a clique or what you have to do to be recognized. It's a hassle. Its boring. That's why I don't roleplay and that's why I'm outspoken against those who do primarily roleplay. If I'm going to roleplay, I don't want to know where its going to end. I don't want to plan it out. I just want to go with it.
In regards to PK. It's also very drab and boring. You can't raid without being labeled as a griefer because "Oh no, you're making me do something I don't want to do. Now I can't emote for X time." On top of that, city guards are almost impossible to kill unless you get a group. So city raiding is pointless because people complained that raids were ruining their fun. You can't just jump people anymore because you'll get issued if your only reason is "Because I don't like your face." I'm a vampire, I should be allowed to jump who I want, when I want because I want your blood. Lessers/Majors/Sect/Orrery are all disconnected from the world as a whole. There is no retribution, there is no chance for revenge. You lose at a lesser/major/orrery, well... congrats. You lost. That's it, end of story. Period. Game over. Now go on about your business like it never even happened. Sect is just a place where people can go to 1v1 because they're bored and want to test combat abilities.... without having to worry about the opponent calling in their 50 friends because they're about to die. This has caused the PK scene in Aetolia to pretty much become non-existent.
I love Aetolia. I would love to help make it better. But we keep instituting more laws, more safety nets, more rules. And players become more and more close minded to just a few individuals around them and we deal with negative repercussions because someone doesn't like the way we roleplayed or they didn't like a specific emote or they didn't like that they were killed. It has left a stale tone to Aetolia in an overall trend.
RP is very boring anymore because most times, its already all drawn out. You already know where you're going. And with most world events, you already know exactly how its going to end. The Bloom? We all knew what was going to happen... So I stayed in my haven for 3 days until the 'cure' was found and then just read the news for the cure, did what I had to and went about my business.
Roleplay with other players is very boring and uneventful as well. More times than not, I hear talk about people going, "This is what I want to happen." If you're already scouting out the end of your roleplay arc and refuse to accept any deviation, that's no fun. When I roleplayed in Imperian, I just winged it. I roleplayed with almost the entire playerbase and just went with it. THAT was fun. I had no idea who I was going to talk to, what about, what would be said. I had no expectations. And the character that was molded was absolutely fantastic! But here in Aetolia, everything is planned out. And then you have all the cliques and the requirements to join a clique or what you have to do to be recognized. It's a hassle. Its boring. That's why I don't roleplay and that's why I'm outspoken against those who do primarily roleplay. If I'm going to roleplay, I don't want to know where its going to end. I don't want to plan it out. I just want to go with it.
In regards to PK. It's also very drab and boring. You can't raid without being labeled as a griefer because "Oh no, you're making me do something I don't want to do. Now I can't emote for X time." On top of that, city guards are almost impossible to kill unless you get a group. So city raiding is pointless because people complained that raids were ruining their fun. You can't just jump people anymore because you'll get issued if your only reason is "Because I don't like your face." I'm a vampire, I should be allowed to jump who I want, when I want because I want your blood. Lessers/Majors/Sect/Orrery are all disconnected from the world as a whole. There is no retribution, there is no chance for revenge. You lose at a lesser/major/orrery, well... congrats. You lost. That's it, end of story. Period. Game over. Now go on about your business like it never even happened. Sect is just a place where people can go to 1v1 because they're bored and want to test combat abilities.... without having to worry about the opponent calling in their 50 friends because they're about to die. This has caused the PK scene in Aetolia to pretty much become non-existent.
I love Aetolia. I would love to help make it better. But we keep instituting more laws, more safety nets, more rules. And players become more and more close minded to just a few individuals around them and we deal with negative repercussions because someone doesn't like the way we roleplayed or they didn't like a specific emote or they didn't like that they were killed. It has left a stale tone to Aetolia in an overall trend.
Rhyot
3
Re: Vampires Theoretical
With this being separate from the system of advancement, I don't feel like it's kicking the sire/childe RP in the pants, because the embracer is separate from the advancement system, so you don't have to choose between the Sire you've built up this awesome RP bond with, and wanting to be stronger/higher than a Duke or whatever.
Embrace: I'd be pulling "Embracer" out of the system and making it a separate thing. Zenobia embraced you, and is forever your sire in that fashion. Your score will always remind you of this. But you can go move elsewhere for bloodline.
Now, here's the real rub: I know I'm really kicking sire/childe RP in the pants.... but what we have now isn't working. There's this massive difference in experience based on what sire you find.
As an aside, DON'T think Emperor/Empress should be tied to HL. Not to say that it CAN'T belong to a HL, just that it shouldn't be tied to it.
Erzsebet
0