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Re: Losing My Religion: Thoughts on Current Religious System
Okay, so this plan could make the gods more quote-unquote mysterious. Is that a -good- thing? And in the short-term, is it going to be a bad thing? I mean, if every god suddenly becomes more distant, it'll impact all of the characters that have had recent interactions with a god, wouldn't it? I'm just...not certain that this is even actually a problem that needs fixing.
Xavin
1
Re: Small Ideas - AIN'T NO COMBAT THREAD
There is, in all reality. Clans aren't meant to act as actual organisations. That why we have actual organisations. If you begin to chip away at giving clans these little, 'quality of life' perks, why is there any need for mechanical organisations? ESPECIALLY where the means for what you're asking already exist. And where does it end? What is they say - Give an inch, give a mile?
Trager
3
Re: Small Ideas - AIN'T NO COMBAT THREAD
Seems like the possibility for more trouble than it's worth, especially considering the means are already there.
Trager
0
Re: Losing My Religion: Thoughts on Current Religious System
Holy wars have a tendency to become a tedious and rather griefy sort of conflict, which is why it doesn't happen. I believe there have been discussions on how to possibly alter this to make it more appealing, and even a few changes since I started playing many years ago. There is, I believe, no one easy way of changing it, however, unless it is on a more individual or small-scale level.
The only thing I can say is that I don't think changing the way the Divine work would be a solution. They are, as stated above in the thread, immersive and engaged in the shaping of the world. This is something that is part of the Creation even. After mortals were created, the Divine began to influence them through their teachings. It is part of lore, as Divine interaction has sometimes caused direct shifts in how the world has moved forward. For example, the Seluno brothers and Severn and Arion, Chakrasul and (can't remember all the people she's influenced, but Sentinel tutor?), and Mebrene and the vessels of Fire.
The Divine are not omnipotent, they are known to be fickle as they reform now and then (for obvious OOC reasons of player switches). They are, however, far above mortals. Some people manage to RP their disdain toward them, though, and as stated above, it is quite possible to implement cults, though one should be prepared for consequences. Just like when one tries to trump (yes I wrote that) a Divine. My character made a rather uppity remark to Slyphe at one point. Out of disappointment in being unable to serve him as a Spirean, and thus asked to leave the Order, she said something along the lines of him regretting his obstinacy. She got laughed out if the Order straight to the bottom of the sea, iirc.
To the claim that the Divine lose some of their credibility when being visible and speaking, and that their words can be picked apart, is but one interpretation. One could instead say that mortals are prone to dissect the words of the Divine and interpret it in their own way, because mortals cannot be expected to completely comprehend things the Divine take for granted. If a God were to say "I prefer orange", who is to say they meant the fruit and not the color or vice versa?
I think, if I'm allowed to be honest, that the reason there are people speaking up against some of your complaints is because it feels like you do not quite have a grasp on certain things in the game. It is not necessarily about IC things, though these show, in a way, that you seem to prefer the game a different way than it is. Some things cannot be changed too drastically, because the essence of the game would be lost, lore would suddenly seem irrelevant and then what would the point be in creating a story? There are people who have been involved in events that have spelled out specific realities in the game that should not be swept aside just because one or a few people feel it would be fun.
The only thing I can say is that I don't think changing the way the Divine work would be a solution. They are, as stated above in the thread, immersive and engaged in the shaping of the world. This is something that is part of the Creation even. After mortals were created, the Divine began to influence them through their teachings. It is part of lore, as Divine interaction has sometimes caused direct shifts in how the world has moved forward. For example, the Seluno brothers and Severn and Arion, Chakrasul and (can't remember all the people she's influenced, but Sentinel tutor?), and Mebrene and the vessels of Fire.
The Divine are not omnipotent, they are known to be fickle as they reform now and then (for obvious OOC reasons of player switches). They are, however, far above mortals. Some people manage to RP their disdain toward them, though, and as stated above, it is quite possible to implement cults, though one should be prepared for consequences. Just like when one tries to trump (yes I wrote that) a Divine. My character made a rather uppity remark to Slyphe at one point. Out of disappointment in being unable to serve him as a Spirean, and thus asked to leave the Order, she said something along the lines of him regretting his obstinacy. She got laughed out if the Order straight to the bottom of the sea, iirc.
To the claim that the Divine lose some of their credibility when being visible and speaking, and that their words can be picked apart, is but one interpretation. One could instead say that mortals are prone to dissect the words of the Divine and interpret it in their own way, because mortals cannot be expected to completely comprehend things the Divine take for granted. If a God were to say "I prefer orange", who is to say they meant the fruit and not the color or vice versa?
I think, if I'm allowed to be honest, that the reason there are people speaking up against some of your complaints is because it feels like you do not quite have a grasp on certain things in the game. It is not necessarily about IC things, though these show, in a way, that you seem to prefer the game a different way than it is. Some things cannot be changed too drastically, because the essence of the game would be lost, lore would suddenly seem irrelevant and then what would the point be in creating a story? There are people who have been involved in events that have spelled out specific realities in the game that should not be swept aside just because one or a few people feel it would be fun.
Teani
8
Re: Losing My Religion: Thoughts on Current Religious System
The thing is, divine essence literally does not matter. I sure as heck wouldn't want to see gods unable to do anything because they have a small following. Would anyone want to step into a new god role knowing that because that god had been inactive for so long their following has dwindled and as a result they are little more than a mortal with a special name on qwho?
Cults sort of worked for MKO, sure, but they wouldn't work here because our gods are more visible. What's our option to deal with your complaints? Completely eliminate gods? That didn't work out too well for the IRE game that did it. And if you remove that character-playing incentive, you're going to find that our volunteer turn-around rate would become even worse than it has typically been here.
All of the things you are stating are problems are things that most people do not have an issue with and are just a symptom of how Aetolia is. People fall away from orders of inactive gods because they could get that interaction elsewhere. It's the way of the world. It really does look like you're making mountains out of molehills when it comes to gods. Ultimately, if you don't want to be corrected by a god, don't give them a reason to correct you.
Cults sort of worked for MKO, sure, but they wouldn't work here because our gods are more visible. What's our option to deal with your complaints? Completely eliminate gods? That didn't work out too well for the IRE game that did it. And if you remove that character-playing incentive, you're going to find that our volunteer turn-around rate would become even worse than it has typically been here.
All of the things you are stating are problems are things that most people do not have an issue with and are just a symptom of how Aetolia is. People fall away from orders of inactive gods because they could get that interaction elsewhere. It's the way of the world. It really does look like you're making mountains out of molehills when it comes to gods. Ultimately, if you don't want to be corrected by a god, don't give them a reason to correct you.
Xavin
1
Re: Losing My Religion: Thoughts on Current Religious System
You're just upset Chakrasul embarrassed you over Spinesreach CT. Stop being silly.Actions of Kalak are his own problem. But clearly you are unable to differentiate IC and OOC. Remember, right now you are not talking to Kalak.
As a player I have my own viewpoint on the religious system. Greek Gods stuff was just one aspect of the criticism and apparently you did not care to read the rest of the points mm? You might be happy that Gods can act as your bestie, but that does not mean every player will find it immersion-enhancing. For one I find it immersion-breaking.
The thread itself aims to bring forward points about the religious system. They may be popular points or unpopular points, but they have nothing to do with IC occurrences. Now I will disregard your immature attempt to flame and continue.
@Rijetta Actually @Rhyot being heathen would not be affected with that. Now, less visible Divine form does not mean "lesser Divine presence". That suggest that their touches could be subtler instead of all domineering and open to fault. If I must go back to being a heathen, visible Divine presence does not make being a heathen stronger because there is nothing to argue over there theologically. On the other hand, you can be a true heathen when you try to raise a cult against the established Order. The struggle there would be more real.
Kalak
0
Re: Losing My Religion: Thoughts on Current Religious System
It is also important to remember that the Gods are vessels of Aetolia's lore and development. They do not have the same liberties and freedoms and familiarites of true played characters. As has been touched upon, God roles, and volunteering, are incredibly thankless jobs. Any favouritism that is given to a character in game is something related to that God's following. We are monitored pretty closely, and any gifts that are given must adhere to certain policies.There is no disingenuity over there, nothing to mislead. Simply that visible and strutting Divine are subject to human nature. Takes away from their credibility and their omnipotence. Some people will like that, some people will not. There is a difference between making a ritual to commune with your Divine and straight out asking them one thing or another. When they speak, their words can be picked apart, fallacies in their words can be found and they lose Divine-value. They no longer are the top of the food chain, but rather beings with mortal flaws. That is the point where immersion breaks for me.
Even our Gods that are most personally involved with mortals are not sitting around having scuttlebutt with mortals. This misrepresentation of being approached and asked questions, or drawn into others' arcs, as being 'chattering fishwives with a juicy bit of gossip' is disingenuous and misleading.
And, being able to be corrected by a God or High Priest does not mean that there is no room for interpretation of of their values and tenets. Damariel's vision of Truth, Chakrasul's focus on Emotion, Ethne's Tempering, Dhar's Silence, Iosyne's reach of Pain and Power. Not all interpretations are *correct*, but the only times a God would be interjecting would be if it was egregiously off the mark and impacting their communities.
While there are certainly flaws within the religious system, and some things we would love to do thematically, we are also bound to maintaining the world view of Aetolia and sustain systems that make sense to what Sapience is and embodies. That requires compromise and, in the end, mortals recognizing just where they actually are in the food chain.
Now the getting corrected part, lack of being able to create cults along pointlessness of Holy Wars are all connected to each other. They create a whole stagnant system which allows only "keep-hands-clean RP" to fluorish. PvP or RP-PvP will not have much room. Because is there even point to start a crusade for a God? Nothing will change unless it is an admin event. So that essentially makes us sit on our chair and expect to be spoon-fed with events rather then taking the initiative.
Despite risking being the black sheep and the bad man, I will state: The religious system of Aetolia is bankrupt and works on the goodwill of volunteers rather then having a strong foundation in mechanics. Bloated essence reserves, invulnerability of Orders, inability to spawn cults, overly-involved Gods...are all meh points. The system will continue on. When the volunteers withdraw, you are left with a jumble of mechanics which are extremely static.
Kalak
0
Re: Losing My Religion: Thoughts on Current Religious System
I'm a bit curious as to how it can be immersion-breaking when this is the way the Divine have functioned in this game since the beginning? The Aetolian deities have always been somewhat involved in the world of mortals, discussing world matters with their orders but without necessarily influencing decisions all the time.
Immersion-breaking would, at least for me, mean things that don't fit with current lore. Machinery, factories, etc. Things that are too advanced for this game world, things going against already established aspects of the game, or chatting about triggers and such over city channels.
In a way, it would break immersion for me if the Divine just suddenly stopped being the way they have always been without any lore-fitting event to go with it.
I guess we are all different though.
Immersion-breaking would, at least for me, mean things that don't fit with current lore. Machinery, factories, etc. Things that are too advanced for this game world, things going against already established aspects of the game, or chatting about triggers and such over city channels.
In a way, it would break immersion for me if the Divine just suddenly stopped being the way they have always been without any lore-fitting event to go with it.
I guess we are all different though.
Teani
6
Re: Losing My Religion: Thoughts on Current Religious System
It is also important to remember that the Gods are vessels of Aetolia's lore and development. They do not have the same liberties and freedoms and familiarites of true played characters. As has been touched upon, God roles, and volunteering, are incredibly thankless jobs. Any favouritism that is given to a character in game is something related to that God's following. We are monitored pretty closely, and any gifts that are given must adhere to certain policies.
Even our Gods that are most personally involved with mortals are not sitting around having scuttlebutt with mortals. This misrepresentation of being approached and asked questions, or drawn into others' arcs, as being 'chattering fishwives with a juicy bit of gossip' is disingenuous and misleading.
And, being able to be corrected by a God or High Priest does not mean that there is no room for interpretation of of their values and tenets. Damariel's vision of Truth, Chakrasul's focus on Emotion, Ethne's Tempering, Dhar's Silence, Iosyne's reach of Pain and Power. Not all interpretations are *correct*, but the only times a God would be interjecting would be if it was egregiously off the mark and impacting their communities.
While there are certainly flaws within the religious system, and some things we would love to do thematically, we are also bound to maintaining the world view of Aetolia and sustain systems that make sense to what Sapience is and embodies. That requires compromise and, in the end, mortals recognizing just where they actually are in the food chain.
Even our Gods that are most personally involved with mortals are not sitting around having scuttlebutt with mortals. This misrepresentation of being approached and asked questions, or drawn into others' arcs, as being 'chattering fishwives with a juicy bit of gossip' is disingenuous and misleading.
And, being able to be corrected by a God or High Priest does not mean that there is no room for interpretation of of their values and tenets. Damariel's vision of Truth, Chakrasul's focus on Emotion, Ethne's Tempering, Dhar's Silence, Iosyne's reach of Pain and Power. Not all interpretations are *correct*, but the only times a God would be interjecting would be if it was egregiously off the mark and impacting their communities.
While there are certainly flaws within the religious system, and some things we would love to do thematically, we are also bound to maintaining the world view of Aetolia and sustain systems that make sense to what Sapience is and embodies. That requires compromise and, in the end, mortals recognizing just where they actually are in the food chain.
Antehe
12