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Re: Townhall - Future
1. PvP and BarriersI completely disagree that there's any real barrier to PvP nor that there is a power creep in regards to PvP. Reason being is because there have been many people who have been successful at PvP without any artifacts because they actually understood it. They understood combat theory, they understood affliction priorities, they understood curing priorities, they understood how to code, they understood so many various things that made them successful. One very key person who didn't really have any artifacts was Draiman, and he would kick everyone's asses up and down the street, ten times over before you killed him. Your inability to PK does not come from a lack of artifacts, it comes from a lack of experience and knowledge in being able to fight.
- Currently one of the matters with PvP is that it is very skillset/arti intensive on 1 vs 1. Will you be taking steps to alleviate some parts of the power creep? For example; there will be any action towards the dreaded Equilibrium Crown?
- Ylem Aura and PvP Rules. Will there be a revision upon them or you are satisfied with how they are?
2. Roguery
I know this is not a favourite topic of many because organizational stuff should be endorsed and such. But that is one of the point of interests to me because mercenary, bandit, pirate, freeblade, sellsword, vagabond roles being absent from a dark fantasy game appears a bit awkward to me. For the record I will put forward:
- Would you be partial to allow some basic necessities such as a general tutor, bank in Esterport (cuts 3% instead of 2% perhaps as a sinkhole) etc.
- Would you allow limited forms of interacting with the Ylem or Refining Skillset? Or should it remain as a deadweight/non-option without cities?
- What is your view on conflicts caused by rogues?
Secondly, there is no power creep. You either learn how to fight, or you don't. Simple as that. If someone suddenly becomes a very hard person to beat in a fight its because they either a) learned they're class and everything therein like the back of their hand or b) paid for an offensive system. So this is just a myth that there's a power creep and a barrier to PvP.
Sure, the EQ crown is annoying, but you don't NEED it to be viable in PK, even for EQ classes. You can always just make sure you are eq-enhanced with your augment points and you'll be fine. This is a hot topic of debate among many people that bounces from both sides of yes/no... but I don't foresee the admin doing a complete refund of EQ Crown with how long its been in the game and the fact that EQ classes are actually based around EQ crown being owned.
Thirdly, Ylem aura and PVP rules are fine as is. The ylem aura stops others from griefing other people just for participating. For example, there have been lessers/minors where newbies go and do them... if we were allowed to PK them just because they were doing them, you'd lose a lot of players in the long run or no one would ever want to do them. Simple as that. Same goes for PvP rules. Your actions have consequences.
As far as Roguery goes, I'm not so sure that it would be conducive to the game to enable rogues because as a rogue, you inherently accept that you don't have access to a large portion of the game and rp accordingly. If you could choose to be rogue and do whatever, your game play would be filled with so much grief that you'd quit the game. Especially if you were a Templar/Sentinel who started helping out the darkie side because they paid you. You sacrifice large portions of mechanical advantages just to be a rogue. Again.. your choices have consequences. Removing the consequences because you want a safety net doesn't help the game at all... it'll only hinder it and remove any sort of negative repercussions for your choices.
This is all just my two cents, I'm not quite sure how the admin team feels about it, but we'll see what happens.
Rhyot
1
Re: Tethers and Conversion
IRE games are already expensive by themselves, unless you have time to grind or cash to throw. That is not something of a secret. Unless you are pure RPer costs may go up and up. Asking for better refund rates would not be something unreasonable when switching from one archetype class to another.
I mean when going from Shadow-Knight Archetype to Light-Knight Archetype, making refund rate 75-80% will not suddenly make the game go bankrupt. Rather it would have a positive impact while still having serious limitations.
And when I say tethers provide a very rigid environment, I do not argue lore but rather a design decision. I would say it creates a politically constipated game at the absence of admin directive. Like religion system, at the absence of god-players it is stagnant. And PvP? It is investment heavy, too much system-reliant, detached mostly from the RP and stringed with draconian rules. If you think, right now you have a seamless world which molds strong lore, RP, PvP and PvE together, I shall be direct. No you have not. You have a game which reshapes lore with every different design decision and sews new tunics over old bodies.
And as for my tone and threads, I leave them for future when someone decides to tackle those issues and make this a better game overally. I am not ashamed to be the Devil's Advocate once in a while.
I mean when going from Shadow-Knight Archetype to Light-Knight Archetype, making refund rate 75-80% will not suddenly make the game go bankrupt. Rather it would have a positive impact while still having serious limitations.
And when I say tethers provide a very rigid environment, I do not argue lore but rather a design decision. I would say it creates a politically constipated game at the absence of admin directive. Like religion system, at the absence of god-players it is stagnant. And PvP? It is investment heavy, too much system-reliant, detached mostly from the RP and stringed with draconian rules. If you think, right now you have a seamless world which molds strong lore, RP, PvP and PvE together, I shall be direct. No you have not. You have a game which reshapes lore with every different design decision and sews new tunics over old bodies.
And as for my tone and threads, I leave them for future when someone decides to tackle those issues and make this a better game overally. I am not ashamed to be the Devil's Advocate once in a while.
Kalak
0
Re: Tethers and Conversion
@KalakAgain with the personal attacks. That is quite unbecoming of yourself. Remember that this is not my first MUD game, perhaps you should stop treating others like that from your high perch. Before this game I was playing Midkemia Online which was a lore-heavy game since it drew a good deal from books. I -do- care about lore, just I dislike lore manipulated into mechanical necessities.
When it comes to said background, I'm sorry, but I have to say this: Of course you don't care about lore, because it seems to me you never have. You should know by now, after all the times you have been told in threads, over clans, and in the game, that lore is something we care very deeply about in this game. It's not something you can just ignore to suit your needs, at least not on a grander scale. We mention lore because it matters. To the rest of us.
This game has been a continuous story, with things happening in it since way before you began playing in March, and there are things that have been established as canon. It is, I hope you can understand, extremely frustrating for us when you choose to blatantly push all that aside as irrelevant, just as it can be frustrating being blamed for actions (or lack thereof) because a character is adhering to game rules or mechanics.
Now, I realize that the last part is somewhat flaming, and I apologize, but I felt it had to be expressed, and it is related to what was written above. This game is built on lore, don't ignore it.
I really do not find explanations of @Kyna as satisfying at all. You may find. That does not mean I disregard lore. And before that I have been playing Imperian which has Anti-Magick, Magick, Demonic circles. Tethers, circles and such as far as they go, all provide rigidity and artificial barriers instead of the intended encouragement of organizational RP.
And I really do not care about your "My way or highway" attitude. You may dislike my view of the lore or even the RP of my character. Be my guest. Generally I prefer to take a proactive approach instead of the reactive approach pervading the game. I mean can you blame me for that? Just do not presume that I do not care about the lore or I do something considered as ICly insane.
At the end of the day, I will continue to enjoy the game and offer my criticism where its due.
Kalak
0
Re: Tethers and Conversion
Oh, we know you don't want to change class.Are you for real? Yes you are! Yes you are!
You want to be Duiran's pet Sciomancer. But all the history of the game is going to oppose you for that.
For one moment consider as someone who played a character which changed sides, whether you would benefit from a better conversation rate or not? Yes? Yes.
Now if you have nothing constructive to add, keep your IC observations away.
Kalak
-2
Re: Tethers and Conversion
These threads are like a live blog. I always know what's happening in @Kalak's life in game based on what change is being asked for now.
Other people have said better what I'd be saying to argue your points made in this thread, so instead I'm going to directly address a portion of your last post (which is on topic given the thread creator brought it up) - your tone and status as 'Devil's Advocate'.
Last thing first: Devil's Advocate is a role from the Catholic Church in an official capacity, tasked with arguing against sainthood by uncovering flaws in a person. What you are doing isn't Devil's Advocacy, you are arguing with a specific agenda for selfish gain. In more casual circles this is known as whining (whinging here sometimes) - there's not anything particularly wrong about it, but it is entirely self-serving and you should do us the courtesy of not insulting our intelligence by pretending this is for the greater good, or that your constant thread creation is some noble work.
Extending from this, your posting style grates because you tend to mix in think veiled (or not veiled at all) jabs at anyone who disagrees while asserting some measure of superiority over the rest of the population- you are the newcomer here. Newcomer opinions are welcome, but you would do well to remember that not only are you a new face, but of unknown quality relatively speaking. Just because you had an idea doesn't mean any of us should care, or agree with it. And when things fail to become an echo chamber, you should mind your tone because as it stands you are failing to convince anyone else of your ideas - repetitively doing so seems, to me, like a you issue and not a them issue, since you're the only constant.
Tl;dr- you are whining and insulting people and that's why people are treating you like this. Self-awareness will go a long way in preventing threads from going like this; as it stands, you are like 0 for 4 on these and the only constant variable is you.
As a final thought, I am sorry MKO went under. This is not MKO and you are not any more special than any other player, so if players (and admin) are consistently chiming in against your ideas, maybe the problem is that x in MKO worked there but will not work here, and while perspective from another is nice, you should accept you are the minority and not everything in this game will be tailored to your liking.
Other people have said better what I'd be saying to argue your points made in this thread, so instead I'm going to directly address a portion of your last post (which is on topic given the thread creator brought it up) - your tone and status as 'Devil's Advocate'.
Last thing first: Devil's Advocate is a role from the Catholic Church in an official capacity, tasked with arguing against sainthood by uncovering flaws in a person. What you are doing isn't Devil's Advocacy, you are arguing with a specific agenda for selfish gain. In more casual circles this is known as whining (whinging here sometimes) - there's not anything particularly wrong about it, but it is entirely self-serving and you should do us the courtesy of not insulting our intelligence by pretending this is for the greater good, or that your constant thread creation is some noble work.
Extending from this, your posting style grates because you tend to mix in think veiled (or not veiled at all) jabs at anyone who disagrees while asserting some measure of superiority over the rest of the population- you are the newcomer here. Newcomer opinions are welcome, but you would do well to remember that not only are you a new face, but of unknown quality relatively speaking. Just because you had an idea doesn't mean any of us should care, or agree with it. And when things fail to become an echo chamber, you should mind your tone because as it stands you are failing to convince anyone else of your ideas - repetitively doing so seems, to me, like a you issue and not a them issue, since you're the only constant.
Tl;dr- you are whining and insulting people and that's why people are treating you like this. Self-awareness will go a long way in preventing threads from going like this; as it stands, you are like 0 for 4 on these and the only constant variable is you.
As a final thought, I am sorry MKO went under. This is not MKO and you are not any more special than any other player, so if players (and admin) are consistently chiming in against your ideas, maybe the problem is that x in MKO worked there but will not work here, and while perspective from another is nice, you should accept you are the minority and not everything in this game will be tailored to your liking.
Toz
7
Re: Tethers and Conversion
You can't both argue lore and then try to dismiss it when it is brought up or clarified.
Severn's gift of training does not mean that the class itself is as infused in shadow as characters (and players apparently) believe. Was there some intended bleedover for some time? Yes. Should anyone be shocked that the God of Artifice might lie to his own people to prop up this sense of being really *special* pets, in lieu of the history of the Ankyreans? The most prized and trusted rellyw? No.
As stated, Wayfarer is not native to Sapience and is offered training. The true Wayfarers do not move between cities, they are off protecting borders and hunting in Albedos, which is Hard Mode compared to what Sapience deals with. Willfully ignoring the clarity offered on this point does not serve any purpose.
Monk's one tie to Spirit is through Kaido, which is primarily the manipulation of that amount of essence inside of you rather than a link or draw from the larger element. Every mortal, even Undead, still have a bit of Spirit in them. It gets dominated by Shadow with their state, but it holds out.
Shapeshifting is a non-genetic mutation rooted in an ancient ritual. Someone being able to drop the training bears no relevance to the conversation, regarding lore or without.
I am sorry you see the well documented refund rate as punitive, but those are the breaks. I am sorry you do not find our explanations satisfying (though I will say that that is reciprocated, the arguments themselves and the attitude in which they are conveyed. This is becoming a reoccurring situation where tone clouds meaning to everyone's discredit.).
The tethers are in place for several reasons: both the mechanical balancing, as well as the lore. A Templar channeling the gifts of the Spirit plane makes little sense assisting Shadow as a Spirean citizen, just as a Sciomancer has little place warping the balance of the elements in Duiran or Enorian. There is a hard polarity with these two elements (which are physical things, not just propaganda for politics), which group some training in ways that are incompatable with others. It is easy to come up with personal narratives as to why you might toe the line, but the elements are not so forgiving once you try to immerse them within each other.
Severn's gift of training does not mean that the class itself is as infused in shadow as characters (and players apparently) believe. Was there some intended bleedover for some time? Yes. Should anyone be shocked that the God of Artifice might lie to his own people to prop up this sense of being really *special* pets, in lieu of the history of the Ankyreans? The most prized and trusted rellyw? No.
As stated, Wayfarer is not native to Sapience and is offered training. The true Wayfarers do not move between cities, they are off protecting borders and hunting in Albedos, which is Hard Mode compared to what Sapience deals with. Willfully ignoring the clarity offered on this point does not serve any purpose.
Monk's one tie to Spirit is through Kaido, which is primarily the manipulation of that amount of essence inside of you rather than a link or draw from the larger element. Every mortal, even Undead, still have a bit of Spirit in them. It gets dominated by Shadow with their state, but it holds out.
Shapeshifting is a non-genetic mutation rooted in an ancient ritual. Someone being able to drop the training bears no relevance to the conversation, regarding lore or without.
I am sorry you see the well documented refund rate as punitive, but those are the breaks. I am sorry you do not find our explanations satisfying (though I will say that that is reciprocated, the arguments themselves and the attitude in which they are conveyed. This is becoming a reoccurring situation where tone clouds meaning to everyone's discredit.).
The tethers are in place for several reasons: both the mechanical balancing, as well as the lore. A Templar channeling the gifts of the Spirit plane makes little sense assisting Shadow as a Spirean citizen, just as a Sciomancer has little place warping the balance of the elements in Duiran or Enorian. There is a hard polarity with these two elements (which are physical things, not just propaganda for politics), which group some training in ways that are incompatable with others. It is easy to come up with personal narratives as to why you might toe the line, but the elements are not so forgiving once you try to immerse them within each other.
Razmael
12
Re: Tethers and Conversion
Besides adding another option for players who desire more freedom in their gameplay, without diluting other organisations, we can look at the lore behind these untethered classes. Perhaps it will make more sense. Syssin are, using an umbrella term, spies. They need to be able to infiltrate their enemies should their RP take them that way. Through history, we have seen this done.
Wayfarer are loners. That is what their skills are built around. They travel and keep to themselves. Their class is built around the ability to move and shift between cities at a whim because of their restless nature.
The lore behind monks is similar to any type of peaceful religion. They do not turn outsiders away to learn the more peaceful aspects of self-defense and mastering the mind. It is their duty to educate the world around them in the ways of balance.
Finally, shapeshifters, they are a sub-race. Animal instincts that characters can let consume them. Their freedom comes from the fact that it is considered a race more than a class, again, lore-wise. It is pure, primal instinct when you are shapeshifter. You can't ask a wolf to stop being a wolf when it is their makeup.
So why don't we do similar lore with other classes? Because that will take away the importance of the tethers and the classes and guilds, with their beliefs and goals, in a big way. Although Spirit vs. Shadow is not the ONLY thing Aetolia has to offer, these tetherless classes being a good example, it is an important facet. Ingrained into Enorian guilds is the teachings that removing the taint on Sapience is what will bring about the age of Dawn. that their sparks and fire give them purity that is better than the alternative. Sentinels and Shaman? A primal spiritual connection that SHOULD stay close to Duiran. The wilds. The forests. Teradrim are connected to the earth. Bloodloch is built into the earth. Carnifex are knights of carnage. Again, fits with the lore of their city being one seeking domination of all living. Archivists get up to some shady knowledge grabbing and experiments, Spinesreach looks the other way. The Ascendril and Sciomancers are weaved with the nature and elements of their respective sides. They are black and white, in lore with subtle shades of grey due to their origins.
It is less about the investment and more about the lore and stories that develop within them. However, the heavy investment DOES make you think twice about breaking out of the RP developed and the nature of the guild or side you are potentially leaving. It is a reason to pause and ask: why?
Wayfarer are loners. That is what their skills are built around. They travel and keep to themselves. Their class is built around the ability to move and shift between cities at a whim because of their restless nature.
The lore behind monks is similar to any type of peaceful religion. They do not turn outsiders away to learn the more peaceful aspects of self-defense and mastering the mind. It is their duty to educate the world around them in the ways of balance.
Finally, shapeshifters, they are a sub-race. Animal instincts that characters can let consume them. Their freedom comes from the fact that it is considered a race more than a class, again, lore-wise. It is pure, primal instinct when you are shapeshifter. You can't ask a wolf to stop being a wolf when it is their makeup.
So why don't we do similar lore with other classes? Because that will take away the importance of the tethers and the classes and guilds, with their beliefs and goals, in a big way. Although Spirit vs. Shadow is not the ONLY thing Aetolia has to offer, these tetherless classes being a good example, it is an important facet. Ingrained into Enorian guilds is the teachings that removing the taint on Sapience is what will bring about the age of Dawn. that their sparks and fire give them purity that is better than the alternative. Sentinels and Shaman? A primal spiritual connection that SHOULD stay close to Duiran. The wilds. The forests. Teradrim are connected to the earth. Bloodloch is built into the earth. Carnifex are knights of carnage. Again, fits with the lore of their city being one seeking domination of all living. Archivists get up to some shady knowledge grabbing and experiments, Spinesreach looks the other way. The Ascendril and Sciomancers are weaved with the nature and elements of their respective sides. They are black and white, in lore with subtle shades of grey due to their origins.
It is less about the investment and more about the lore and stories that develop within them. However, the heavy investment DOES make you think twice about breaking out of the RP developed and the nature of the guild or side you are potentially leaving. It is a reason to pause and ask: why?
Kyna
4
Re: Small Ideas - AIN'T NO COMBAT THREAD
You have a very egotistical view. Your examples are beyond critique to the extent that names aren't even provided, yet the established player base who have been here long before you aren't allowed to weigh in because the sum of their experience is somehow less valid. You will succeed with your rogue endeavor even though others who came before you could not, and their failure is irrelevant to you because you are somehow more than them.
I'm going to start with the social aspect for arguing against your post. Aetolian gameplay does not exist in a vacuum. When you emote or act, you pull on a string. You may imagine the rest of the game world to be similarly made up of strings. Sometimes you pull and only your string moves - solo RP. What you are wanting is not solo RP, and so when you pull one string you will move other strings. In your mind, you will make a mercenary group or a rogue alliance of spies and thieves. It will be interesting to you, you will have fun, and you can easily imagine a rogue den in Esterport where you and your cronies lurk, awaiting a contract.
What you fail to account for is the other strings involved. No one from Enorian can hire you because of city ethos - not if you also work for BL or any other person. Duiran will likely do the same, for the same reasons - why pay you when the gold given might then directly be used to harm them. This leaves BL and Spinesreach to hire yourself out to. You will also find yourself free pk to any org on the lifer side if you use any of their classes - there were two rogue Templars who were hunted until they changed class less than 6 months ago, with admin blessing. So now you are factional aligned and locked in to certain classes, congratulations. Welcome to shadow side. Why not join a city and benefit from the ylem bonus? You don't fill a niche at all, being outside of one, that you couldn't fill inside one.
Theft is even worse, we will all hunt you forever. I promise you'll quit or hide enough in a safe room that you become irrelevant long before we get tired of killing you, theft is annoying.
Hopefully these brief examples are enough to overcome the massive experience you have with rogue groups elsewhere that us lesser being are not privy to. I'm happy to discuss more at length as needed.
Now for the more simple, and more on-topic point: titling. Let's say you really can do it. You are a sellsword org that is purely neutral. Everyone hires you, you're rich. With what authority do you title yourself? You don't have a city, or rank in an org that is officially recognized. You don't make treaties or have guards, you don't have a tutor, you don't have infrastructure and you sure as hell don't have the authority to grant a title because you're a nobody. You can pay someone to title you, maybe, but titling yourself is absurd - no one has to recognize you as a political entity. Titling is not just some appending of a string, it's a coded representation of beaurocracy in action. You have yet to explain why you as a random irrelevant group to the world at large can grant such a thing.
In conclusion, you are welcome to try rogue out. I hope it works but more established players have tried and failed, and your arrogance in handling such points is unimpressive. Clans have no authority to title because of their place in the world, and that should not change - my book club can't grant me knighthood, my city can.
I'm going to start with the social aspect for arguing against your post. Aetolian gameplay does not exist in a vacuum. When you emote or act, you pull on a string. You may imagine the rest of the game world to be similarly made up of strings. Sometimes you pull and only your string moves - solo RP. What you are wanting is not solo RP, and so when you pull one string you will move other strings. In your mind, you will make a mercenary group or a rogue alliance of spies and thieves. It will be interesting to you, you will have fun, and you can easily imagine a rogue den in Esterport where you and your cronies lurk, awaiting a contract.
What you fail to account for is the other strings involved. No one from Enorian can hire you because of city ethos - not if you also work for BL or any other person. Duiran will likely do the same, for the same reasons - why pay you when the gold given might then directly be used to harm them. This leaves BL and Spinesreach to hire yourself out to. You will also find yourself free pk to any org on the lifer side if you use any of their classes - there were two rogue Templars who were hunted until they changed class less than 6 months ago, with admin blessing. So now you are factional aligned and locked in to certain classes, congratulations. Welcome to shadow side. Why not join a city and benefit from the ylem bonus? You don't fill a niche at all, being outside of one, that you couldn't fill inside one.
Theft is even worse, we will all hunt you forever. I promise you'll quit or hide enough in a safe room that you become irrelevant long before we get tired of killing you, theft is annoying.
Hopefully these brief examples are enough to overcome the massive experience you have with rogue groups elsewhere that us lesser being are not privy to. I'm happy to discuss more at length as needed.
Now for the more simple, and more on-topic point: titling. Let's say you really can do it. You are a sellsword org that is purely neutral. Everyone hires you, you're rich. With what authority do you title yourself? You don't have a city, or rank in an org that is officially recognized. You don't make treaties or have guards, you don't have a tutor, you don't have infrastructure and you sure as hell don't have the authority to grant a title because you're a nobody. You can pay someone to title you, maybe, but titling yourself is absurd - no one has to recognize you as a political entity. Titling is not just some appending of a string, it's a coded representation of beaurocracy in action. You have yet to explain why you as a random irrelevant group to the world at large can grant such a thing.
In conclusion, you are welcome to try rogue out. I hope it works but more established players have tried and failed, and your arrogance in handling such points is unimpressive. Clans have no authority to title because of their place in the world, and that should not change - my book club can't grant me knighthood, my city can.
Toz
9
Re: Small Ideas - AIN'T NO COMBAT THREAD
All I said was to give a title privilege with gold to deal with cumbersomeness of NPC mechanic. People are exaggerating. *facepalm*
@Rhyot You may or may not have such an experience. I do not know. But based on my solid experience I can say that "True Rogues" scenario does not occur. Instead that opens paths to mercenaries, banditry and many other different avenues of RP. It sparks much activity, provides tools for different playstyles. But I shall not argue on this. Paranoia is strong in this game. If based on a title idea people go to the lengths of mentioning "doom of all organizations" I am truly speechless.
@Rhyot You may or may not have such an experience. I do not know. But based on my solid experience I can say that "True Rogues" scenario does not occur. Instead that opens paths to mercenaries, banditry and many other different avenues of RP. It sparks much activity, provides tools for different playstyles. But I shall not argue on this. Paranoia is strong in this game. If based on a title idea people go to the lengths of mentioning "doom of all organizations" I am truly speechless.
Kalak
0