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Re: A Goodbye
>Kiddie gloves are bad, you should suffer for your actions
>Divine impacted by such a betrayal striking out with proportionally timed disfavor (about as long as it would take to repair the damage done) is too long
Pick one.
The aggressor gets all the benefit and the first strike. They played off people OOC desire to help and encourage the playerbase, spy 'rp' is undetectable and risk free - she could have stayed in Eno for 10 rl years biding her time at 0 cost. There was no 'win' condition for the defenders, the Syssin are now outright lying in an attempt to make themselves look like the victim here, and a vast majority of the playerbase on both sides seem pretty disgusted.
If I break your legs in half with my car and drive away, I go to jail, regardless of all the fun opportunity you get to have physical therapy and rebuild yourself.
The side aggressing has the obligation to limit their victory. That's called sportsmanship and it is a global phenomenon. You don't run up the score in a game you are already winning, you don't flaunt your lead while you hold it, and you don't launch an unavoidable campaign playing against OOC feelings (because people invest significantly in their characters and wanting them to have fun is normal), steal everything you can in a display of wild, careless abuse of systems and trust, refuse to give it back then weep bitterly when your betters do it for you about how it's not fair you were unstoppably targeted OOC.
A 100 day hex was a taste of their own medicine and it seems to me they sure don't like it much, nobody was chomping at the bit to do anything other than 'holy shit mercy'- where was the Syssin's drawing from allied? Where was BL and their gods called on to help counteract? C'mon guys work through it and build with this wonderful RP you got handed - at least you got to opt into it.
>Divine impacted by such a betrayal striking out with proportionally timed disfavor (about as long as it would take to repair the damage done) is too long
Pick one.
The aggressor gets all the benefit and the first strike. They played off people OOC desire to help and encourage the playerbase, spy 'rp' is undetectable and risk free - she could have stayed in Eno for 10 rl years biding her time at 0 cost. There was no 'win' condition for the defenders, the Syssin are now outright lying in an attempt to make themselves look like the victim here, and a vast majority of the playerbase on both sides seem pretty disgusted.
If I break your legs in half with my car and drive away, I go to jail, regardless of all the fun opportunity you get to have physical therapy and rebuild yourself.
The side aggressing has the obligation to limit their victory. That's called sportsmanship and it is a global phenomenon. You don't run up the score in a game you are already winning, you don't flaunt your lead while you hold it, and you don't launch an unavoidable campaign playing against OOC feelings (because people invest significantly in their characters and wanting them to have fun is normal), steal everything you can in a display of wild, careless abuse of systems and trust, refuse to give it back then weep bitterly when your betters do it for you about how it's not fair you were unstoppably targeted OOC.
A 100 day hex was a taste of their own medicine and it seems to me they sure don't like it much, nobody was chomping at the bit to do anything other than 'holy shit mercy'- where was the Syssin's drawing from allied? Where was BL and their gods called on to help counteract? C'mon guys work through it and build with this wonderful RP you got handed - at least you got to opt into it.
Toz
3
Re: A Goodbye
The perpetrator of this crime was a leader in a guild since she was a teenager, a guild whose first line of their help file says they are bestowed with the gift of guile and deception. She was a leader in that guild for over 10 years. She was a Senator of Spinesreach for over 14 years.
How long was this individual a citizen of Enorian before she was made an Enorian minister? I know it was less than two IC months, it might have even been after 4 real days.
Which citizen of Enorian, before she ever left Spinesreach, was attempting to convert her, the wife of the General? Thus leaving themselves wide open, IC. When you play with the devil you are opening yourself up to consequences. Is Atarah the RL person a bad person? Absolutely not. There was absolutely no excuse, in the heat of the moment or any other time, for the OOC messages she received in the game.
All of this came about in less than two IC years, closer to just one year. Enorian can shift the blame to the Syssin, because they were roleplaying what they are. But they are at fault here too. They took a known enemy of theirs into their arms without any caution at all.
Also - even if Atarah is not a bad person OOC, she did a thing which had a severe and disproportionately OOC impact, far in excess of any supposed offense on our part. It disproportionately impacted people who had nothing to do with the decisions to trust her and give her power.
While you can dispute the amount of trust we showed, and how quickly we showed it, that feels like a deflection from the fact that no matter how reasonably we dealt with Atarah, we were still going to get robbed. That's the part that sucks about it - knowing that, short of ruining a potentially solid player's game experience, there was nothing that we could have done to stop this from happening.
Again, this is a game. We want games to be fun. We don't want to model the Cold War - we want to assume that people are playing the game to have fun, and we don't want to bar solid, well-meaning players off because they might hurt us.
The most concerning thing is the response from the administration. A precedent was set that basically says, "You do anything dark, evil, or subversive; we're just going to curse you down to where you have zero abilities." Four curses left every Syssin, including novices, with a long line of inept abilities. Most having zero clue IC or OOC to what was going on. The Syssin were told that until the commodities were returned, the entire guild would stay cursed for 100 RL days. Instead of allowing this to play out, give one curse, maybe two, allowing the Syssin to still be able to have some combat abilities and leverage, the administrators made the choice and set the tone for what this game is. The admin did not even allow the players any form of RP or in character resolution. No player base creativity allowed, no facilitating the roleplay, just zap.... "You give back the comms or you and your guild are non-effective." Well, you've now made the best RP guild in the game non-effective. I do hope that is what you wanted.I'm going to give you the same bad advice you're trying to give us-
Find a different response next time. If you didn't want to be stuck with no resources at a severe disadvantage, maybe you should have taken the time to consider a different course of action.
Do you want me to be sympathetic? The people who lead your guild orchestrated this, planned this, and seized disproportionately on the trust that the good guys are supposed to extend. My city was going to have to go into full panic mode and every single crafter was going to be impacted by this. Now you're mad because something similar has happened to you?
Maybe you should think about why what happened to us is something you're defending, but why this is somehow a bridge too far.
Facilitating roleplay? That's a joke. Atarah stole commodities and abused an investiture of IC and OOC trust. There was no RP there, because there was little to no chance for us to detect her. At no point was legitimate RP facilitated at any point during this. Quite the contrary, a lot of us feel used, disappointed, and like a lot of our effort amounted to absolutely nothing.
And Enorian has RP too, by the way. The Syssin aren't the only guild in the game who can put together an aesthetic. We can RP too, and that's what we thought we were doing until we were cheated out of our resources. Don't boast about your RP when the most prominent recent example of it is org theft and metagaming - that's not a thing you get to boast about.
In light of the sheer level of contempt that org theft represents, I am (perhaps unjustifiably) totally cool with the admin response. You wanted to make us ineffective; why shouldn't you be ineffective? You wanted to punish people who had nothing to do with the decisions; why shouldn't people who had nothing to do with it get punished?
If you want a better response, you should figure out better things to do than robbing orgs for the lulz.
/bad advice
Re: A Goodbye
In fact, Kalak, Duiran -did- show support, and Enorian -did- pull together. The only reason we got stuff back is because someone on the inside saw how shitty this was and wanted to fix it.Many such things can be found, through donations, through player effort and yes, there is clear handholding in this case. I have never seen such a silly thing as disfavoring an entire guild for 100 RL days. Rendering them ineffective because they played their role.
This isn't just 'so build up your comms'. We're a city almost constantly beng raided, so the sigils would be gone. Makes that a lot easier. Without steel, nobody can afford to make weapons, we can't fight anymore. You're so -bent- on 'oh well it was hand holding' that you aren't seeing that, by trying to make conflict, they nearly made it impossible for us to engage in the conflict they wanted to create. And you know what? if admin had just bailed us out, they would've bitched about that too.
I am sorry but from now on, in good light I cannot take any Divine who spreads words of Corruption and Manipulation and Dominance seriously lorewise when they do not reward their followers for acts of such. This act was a dominating one, manipulating one and it was corrupt through and through.
So if we are serious about our RP, then we should put OOC aside and deal with it ICly.
Kalak
1
Re: A Goodbye
I'm consistently impressed you manage to show up on the wrong side of every argument you touch.Dude anyone who thinks 100 RL days disfavor is okay must be a bit mixing OOC and IC stuff in the game. It is unreasonable. It is childish. It shows the lack of restraint on Divine/Admin side and they handle player created crises very poorly.
They robbed a theocracy, and are arguing actions have consequences. The 100 RL day hex is entirely IC and matching with the style of play they chose to pursue- replacing those stolen comms ICly would take longer than 100 days in time alone, let alone gold.
Your version of conflict, and theirs, and Imperians apparently, is not compatible with a MUD. Which is probably why Imperian is dying out at the rate that it is, with leadership retiring regularly.
There was an appalling lack of restraint and trying to warp themselves into the victims is a new low - a record topped in under 24 hours.
I heard the commodities was returned, I suppose?
Let me tell you missed opportunities:
- A chance for Duiran to show its steadfast alliance to Enorian in times of hardship.
- For Enorian citizens to bond with each other while rebuilding their resources.
- Diplomatical play among entities and further intrigue stemming from a player-created crisis.
The possibilities in this situation and its positive outcomes are so mind-boggling...and the thrown tantrums around simply makes me lose faith.
If I was a Syssin, I would rather ride it out through the whole ordeal and be proud that for once we made impact upon the gameworld. ICly I have every reason to beat the shit out of Spireans, but OOCly I can see the desire for kiddie gloves is overwhelming in the victim side of an event so cannot stop myself feeling sympathy for the admin oppression upon the whole Syssin guild. Severn would be proud nonetheless.
Kalak
1
Re: A Goodbye
So speaking as someone truly neutral to this situation, and as someone who has played Imperian where this happened a fair bit. I'm a little overwhelmed by the overt anger towards something that (in my opinion) was completely acceptable roleplay.
Back in Imperian, when someone stole mass commodities and then bounced, we would declare war on the city until we either got back our comms or a significant gold price was paid. We would sit in the city and just own it for days, killing anyone who stepped foot into that city. While we were owning said city, our non comms would run caravans every day to every end of the game to help replenish stocks... even to villages owned by enemy cities.
That's the inherent problem with Aetolia. There is no other decisive way to obtain commodities other than waiting a casual replenishment of stock from the city and the outlying villages. Additionally, a player will not gain any profit from selling comms to the city after purchasing them from villages.
Villages will sell ice for 300 gold apiece, but a city will buy it at 250. You take a loss as a character and become disgruntled. So you won't want to help much, but the option is there to still help. This brings up an inherent problem with how commodities are garnered and should probably be looked at to get fixed. I have ideas that I would be glad to share with admins and the Pools team to help augment this.
As far as the roleplay goes, it was (in my opinion) a good roleplay. Yes, orgtheft sucks. Ill agree, but it spurs activity and people going on murderous envious rampages. While I do understand that you want to give people chances, you have to protect yourself too. I cannot see, under any circumstance, why Enorian would let Rhyot into their city at all. And even if they did, he would definitely get treated as a third rate citizen. Sometimes you have to play dirty to protect yourself. Its what we do in Bloodloch for that precise reason. We question your loyalty right out of the gate and restrict what you can/can't do as far as organization power goes.
Additionally, I think the quick stomping by admins was a little unnecessary. There were plenty of avenues to get this resolved IC-ly before jumping the gun into mass curses of inoperability. If someone did it to BL, I would do my damnedest to buy out the comms from villages and even try to purchase comms from Spinesreach and maybe even the opposite lifer side city that robbed BL. It's what alliances are for. There were ways to resolve this.. diplomatically and violently. Both are acceptable and didn't need overly aggressive actions from the admins just yet.
Overall, this could have been handled much better than it was and could have been an amazing point in history and alliance testing. It's a set back for sure for Enorian, but it's not impossible to fix. Just my 10c.
EDIT: Keep in mind I'm not condoning the actions of org theft, but I'm also not arguing against it either. Also, I'm sorry that some people are adversely severely negatively affected by this and hope things do get better for you. And under no circumstances should people be bitter and upset. At the end of the day, it is just a game. Hope my comments didn't offend or upset anyone and if they do, you have my apologies. Perception is key, I'm not trying to condone/misappropriate anything. Hope everyone has a good rest of the day.
@Mykellah I sincerely hope you get better soon and that this doesn't impede your recovery. Best wishes.
Back in Imperian, when someone stole mass commodities and then bounced, we would declare war on the city until we either got back our comms or a significant gold price was paid. We would sit in the city and just own it for days, killing anyone who stepped foot into that city. While we were owning said city, our non comms would run caravans every day to every end of the game to help replenish stocks... even to villages owned by enemy cities.
That's the inherent problem with Aetolia. There is no other decisive way to obtain commodities other than waiting a casual replenishment of stock from the city and the outlying villages. Additionally, a player will not gain any profit from selling comms to the city after purchasing them from villages.
Villages will sell ice for 300 gold apiece, but a city will buy it at 250. You take a loss as a character and become disgruntled. So you won't want to help much, but the option is there to still help. This brings up an inherent problem with how commodities are garnered and should probably be looked at to get fixed. I have ideas that I would be glad to share with admins and the Pools team to help augment this.
As far as the roleplay goes, it was (in my opinion) a good roleplay. Yes, orgtheft sucks. Ill agree, but it spurs activity and people going on murderous envious rampages. While I do understand that you want to give people chances, you have to protect yourself too. I cannot see, under any circumstance, why Enorian would let Rhyot into their city at all. And even if they did, he would definitely get treated as a third rate citizen. Sometimes you have to play dirty to protect yourself. Its what we do in Bloodloch for that precise reason. We question your loyalty right out of the gate and restrict what you can/can't do as far as organization power goes.
Additionally, I think the quick stomping by admins was a little unnecessary. There were plenty of avenues to get this resolved IC-ly before jumping the gun into mass curses of inoperability. If someone did it to BL, I would do my damnedest to buy out the comms from villages and even try to purchase comms from Spinesreach and maybe even the opposite lifer side city that robbed BL. It's what alliances are for. There were ways to resolve this.. diplomatically and violently. Both are acceptable and didn't need overly aggressive actions from the admins just yet.
Overall, this could have been handled much better than it was and could have been an amazing point in history and alliance testing. It's a set back for sure for Enorian, but it's not impossible to fix. Just my 10c.
EDIT: Keep in mind I'm not condoning the actions of org theft, but I'm also not arguing against it either. Also, I'm sorry that some people are adversely severely negatively affected by this and hope things do get better for you. And under no circumstances should people be bitter and upset. At the end of the day, it is just a game. Hope my comments didn't offend or upset anyone and if they do, you have my apologies. Perception is key, I'm not trying to condone/misappropriate anything. Hope everyone has a good rest of the day.
@Mykellah I sincerely hope you get better soon and that this doesn't impede your recovery. Best wishes.
Rhyot
3
Re: A Goodbye
No way to know if it was over the top, there was no opportunity for the players/leaders to work out anything. Atarah returned to the guild at 19:15
2018/03/06 20:29:42 - Ethne has bestowed a divine curse upon the Syssin. It will last for 100 days.
2018/03/06 20:52:50 - Slyphe has bestowed a divine curse upon the Syssin. It will last for 100 days.
2018/03/06 20:56:04 - Damariel has bestowed a divine curse upon the Syssin. It will last for 100
days.
2018/03/06 22:28:48 - Dhar has bestowed a divine disfavor upon the City of Spinesreach. It will last
for 20 days.
The divine set the tone without providing you any opportunity to talk to Spinesreach or negotiate. You were not crippled, there was time to negotiate.
2018/03/06 20:29:42 - Ethne has bestowed a divine curse upon the Syssin. It will last for 100 days.
2018/03/06 20:52:50 - Slyphe has bestowed a divine curse upon the Syssin. It will last for 100 days.
2018/03/06 20:56:04 - Damariel has bestowed a divine curse upon the Syssin. It will last for 100
days.
2018/03/06 22:28:48 - Dhar has bestowed a divine disfavor upon the City of Spinesreach. It will last
for 20 days.
The divine set the tone without providing you any opportunity to talk to Spinesreach or negotiate. You were not crippled, there was time to negotiate.
Rurthina
1
Re: A Goodbye
The perpetrator of this crime was a leader in a guild since she was a teenager, a guild whose first line of their help file says they are bestowed with the gift of guile and deception. She was a leader in that guild for over 10 years. She was a Senator of Spinesreach for over 14 years.
How long was this individual a citizen of Enorian before she was made an Enorian minister? I know it was less than two IC months, it might have even been after 4 real days.
Which citizen of Enorian, before she ever left Spinesreach, was attempting to convert her, the wife of the General? Thus leaving themselves wide open, IC. When you play with the devil you are opening yourself up to consequences. Is Atarah the RL person a bad person? Absolutely not. There was absolutely no excuse, in the heat of the moment or any other time, for the OOC messages she received in the game.
All of this came about in less than two IC years, closer to just one year. Enorian can shift the blame to the Syssin, because they were roleplaying what they are. But they are at fault here too. They took a known enemy of theirs into their arms without any caution at all.
The most concerning thing is the response from the administration. A precedent was set that basically says, "You do anything dark, evil, or subversive; we're just going to curse you down to where you have zero abilities." Four curses left every Syssin, including novices, with a long line of inept abilities. Most having zero clue IC or OOC to what was going on. The Syssin were told that until the commodities were returned, the entire guild would stay cursed for 100 RL days. Instead of allowing this to play out, give one curse, maybe two, allowing the Syssin to still be able to have some combat abilities and leverage, the administrators made the choice and set the tone for what this game is. The admin did not even allow the players any form of RP or in character resolution. No player base creativity allowed, no facilitating the roleplay, just zap.... "You give back the comms or you and your guild are non-effective." Well, you've now made the best RP guild in the game non-effective. I do hope that is what you wanted.
What should be a dark world of vampires, even the spirit side having a twisted form of light, is sadly turned in to a bunch of teddy bear huggers. I realize that the old days cannot be repeated and that balancing good vs evil, is difficult, particularly to keep it fun for all.
How long was this individual a citizen of Enorian before she was made an Enorian minister? I know it was less than two IC months, it might have even been after 4 real days.
Which citizen of Enorian, before she ever left Spinesreach, was attempting to convert her, the wife of the General? Thus leaving themselves wide open, IC. When you play with the devil you are opening yourself up to consequences. Is Atarah the RL person a bad person? Absolutely not. There was absolutely no excuse, in the heat of the moment or any other time, for the OOC messages she received in the game.
All of this came about in less than two IC years, closer to just one year. Enorian can shift the blame to the Syssin, because they were roleplaying what they are. But they are at fault here too. They took a known enemy of theirs into their arms without any caution at all.
The most concerning thing is the response from the administration. A precedent was set that basically says, "You do anything dark, evil, or subversive; we're just going to curse you down to where you have zero abilities." Four curses left every Syssin, including novices, with a long line of inept abilities. Most having zero clue IC or OOC to what was going on. The Syssin were told that until the commodities were returned, the entire guild would stay cursed for 100 RL days. Instead of allowing this to play out, give one curse, maybe two, allowing the Syssin to still be able to have some combat abilities and leverage, the administrators made the choice and set the tone for what this game is. The admin did not even allow the players any form of RP or in character resolution. No player base creativity allowed, no facilitating the roleplay, just zap.... "You give back the comms or you and your guild are non-effective." Well, you've now made the best RP guild in the game non-effective. I do hope that is what you wanted.
What should be a dark world of vampires, even the spirit side having a twisted form of light, is sadly turned in to a bunch of teddy bear huggers. I realize that the old days cannot be repeated and that balancing good vs evil, is difficult, particularly to keep it fun for all.
Rurthina
2
Re: A Goodbye
Guys guys, calm down. Firstly it is not nice to bring an IC event up here regardless of the gravity of the action. But people should just try to be more careful next time.
I think from an IC standpoint I might be against @Fezzix and Syssin on the whole possibly would join a headhunt if Kalak was invited, though OOCly I would never think that I would come to their defense.
- One does not simply recruit the wife of a dishonest Syssin general and give her the openings to one's resources. Commerce is an important part of any organization. So that is partly on Enorian.
- People react upon orgthefts strongly because that is a clear loss for one side, a victory to the other side. That is natural. But what you should think about right now is not quitting or throwing tantrums but rather thinking how to retaliate.
- There is no moderation in consequences. An action does not have to be palatable for anyone. If the theft was too little then it would be inconsequential.
- @Shachalai If you are a city leader or any leader, you have to think about who is trustworthy and who is not. That is part of the espionage RP. Even if you are a citizen and suspect malevolent intentions, you can open up interesting "We have a spy amongst us" RP with city/guild officials.
- The people who perpetuated this cannot be labelled as griefers, when there is clear motive for a city to deprive another city of resources. It is a malevolent RP act with serious consequences. @Mykellah herself right now indicated the approval was not hers. So perhaps circumventing a minister was not a good idea.
- @Tiur I think sales limit etc. would be acknowledging that playerbase cannot govern itself without admin. Letting dust to settle is a really good advice though. And war trumpets are always fun to thump upon!
I think from an IC standpoint I might be against @Fezzix and Syssin on the whole possibly would join a headhunt if Kalak was invited, though OOCly I would never think that I would come to their defense.
- One does not simply recruit the wife of a dishonest Syssin general and give her the openings to one's resources. Commerce is an important part of any organization. So that is partly on Enorian.
- People react upon orgthefts strongly because that is a clear loss for one side, a victory to the other side. That is natural. But what you should think about right now is not quitting or throwing tantrums but rather thinking how to retaliate.
- There is no moderation in consequences. An action does not have to be palatable for anyone. If the theft was too little then it would be inconsequential.
- @Shachalai If you are a city leader or any leader, you have to think about who is trustworthy and who is not. That is part of the espionage RP. Even if you are a citizen and suspect malevolent intentions, you can open up interesting "We have a spy amongst us" RP with city/guild officials.
- The people who perpetuated this cannot be labelled as griefers, when there is clear motive for a city to deprive another city of resources. It is a malevolent RP act with serious consequences. @Mykellah herself right now indicated the approval was not hers. So perhaps circumventing a minister was not a good idea.
- @Tiur I think sales limit etc. would be acknowledging that playerbase cannot govern itself without admin. Letting dust to settle is a really good advice though. And war trumpets are always fun to thump upon!
Kalak
2
Re: A Goodbye
First, I'm just going to give a shout-out to the Syssin. Many of you don't deserve the shade and I love you lots and always. 
Second - limits are a terrible way to address this problem. When I was GM I was constantly frustrated by the limit on the gold I could withdraw to fix the Guildhall and that I had to harass the Admin whenever I needed more, or that I needed to stockpile a lot of gold that wasn't mine until I had the amount on hand needed to build whatever it was I wanted to build.
The way to address this problem is to take away the need for people to move org commodities and org gold into their personal possession in the first place. Someone needs to forge? Minister assigns a certain number of whatever to that forger and it's hard-coded to be on the forge for them to use for that purpose. GM needs to build rooms? The gold just pulls directly from the Guild account with a lognote made. Done. No limits, but the issue of people with sticky fingers solved.
Second - limits are a terrible way to address this problem. When I was GM I was constantly frustrated by the limit on the gold I could withdraw to fix the Guildhall and that I had to harass the Admin whenever I needed more, or that I needed to stockpile a lot of gold that wasn't mine until I had the amount on hand needed to build whatever it was I wanted to build.
The way to address this problem is to take away the need for people to move org commodities and org gold into their personal possession in the first place. Someone needs to forge? Minister assigns a certain number of whatever to that forger and it's hard-coded to be on the forge for them to use for that purpose. GM needs to build rooms? The gold just pulls directly from the Guild account with a lognote made. Done. No limits, but the issue of people with sticky fingers solved.
Faerah
5
Re: A Goodbye
I think we all just need to recognize that for a brief period of time, Tomi got to roll around in the biggest Ash/Ice pile she has ever seen, and probably will ever see.
I also think that the gold limit is due to massive amounts of theft by particular parties during the Vamp House Merging thing (among other particular instances that I am likely unaware of).
I also think that the gold limit is due to massive amounts of theft by particular parties during the Vamp House Merging thing (among other particular instances that I am likely unaware of).
Satomi
8