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Re: The Producer's Dilemma
I am going to need anybody who thinks that the admin were severely out of line, or that what was done was Atarah and Fezzix was okay, to give me a point-by-point refutation of both Tiur and Toz's posts on this thread, because as far as I am concerned they are the definitive explanations of why this was a problem and why we shouldn't just accept what happened as being business-as-usual.
@Kalak, you're absolutely wrong on every possible count. Your entire game-playing philosophy is absurd and heartless.
@Kalak, you're absolutely wrong on every possible count. Your entire game-playing philosophy is absurd and heartless.
Re: The Producer's Dilemma
There were not IC 'red flags'. I knew OOCly she was a spy and was her mentor in the guild and sponsored her for knighthood anyway because there was no indication in any way that, ICly, there was foulness afoot.
Which is always how spy RP and the like goes. It is not practical or reasonable to catch unless they go out of their way to make it so.
You, as an uninformed/uninvolved third party are here posting in grandiose words and using broad, sweeping emotional appeals while impressing upon us how greatly important your opinion is while refusing to actually provide meat - your reasoning is circular (this should have been RP'd ICly because conflict is good, conflict is good because it generates RP) without dealing with the prerequisite issue of the manner and severity of the theft.
You do not belong to any org. You were, in fact, run off from all orgs you were a part of because people found you intolerable and unwilling to play along with others in any capacity, and so you insisting that others do that here is laughable.
You also, in your short time as GM, utterly flaunted good taste in any number of ways. This is not directly relevant to the topic, but it is relevant to your credentials as any sort of authority on playstyle. You, who would not play a loss, who would ignore others and only self-flagellate IC, are not a model of conflict that is interesting or sustainable, and you have not provided any argument against a) the manner in which the injury was inflicted being awful, objectively, b) a compelling reason why Eno should have any interest in playing along with those involved (as, again, RP loss is opt in and they proved they are not engaging in good faith), and c) that there was bad RP on the part of the gods who involved themselves.
Commodities were stolen using a mechanic. The reply to force negotiation was done using a mechanic. The ease with which so much damage was done was wildly disproportionate to the effect it had and the magnitude. The gods IC reaction leveled the wildly unfair negotiating field and forced the people who did it to come to the table where before there was zero incentive - or way to provide an incentive.
Until you find it within yourself to provide material, substantial argument as to why anything I said was incorrect- until you can explain, using any example of a red flag, how this could have been 'detected' or 'defended against' without someone with good intentions and an honest interest in conversion not being badly hurt on an OOC level and possibly losing the game a player? I see no reason for anyone to engage further with your points, such that they are.
Which is always how spy RP and the like goes. It is not practical or reasonable to catch unless they go out of their way to make it so.
You, as an uninformed/uninvolved third party are here posting in grandiose words and using broad, sweeping emotional appeals while impressing upon us how greatly important your opinion is while refusing to actually provide meat - your reasoning is circular (this should have been RP'd ICly because conflict is good, conflict is good because it generates RP) without dealing with the prerequisite issue of the manner and severity of the theft.
You do not belong to any org. You were, in fact, run off from all orgs you were a part of because people found you intolerable and unwilling to play along with others in any capacity, and so you insisting that others do that here is laughable.
You also, in your short time as GM, utterly flaunted good taste in any number of ways. This is not directly relevant to the topic, but it is relevant to your credentials as any sort of authority on playstyle. You, who would not play a loss, who would ignore others and only self-flagellate IC, are not a model of conflict that is interesting or sustainable, and you have not provided any argument against a) the manner in which the injury was inflicted being awful, objectively, b) a compelling reason why Eno should have any interest in playing along with those involved (as, again, RP loss is opt in and they proved they are not engaging in good faith), and c) that there was bad RP on the part of the gods who involved themselves.
Commodities were stolen using a mechanic. The reply to force negotiation was done using a mechanic. The ease with which so much damage was done was wildly disproportionate to the effect it had and the magnitude. The gods IC reaction leveled the wildly unfair negotiating field and forced the people who did it to come to the table where before there was zero incentive - or way to provide an incentive.
Until you find it within yourself to provide material, substantial argument as to why anything I said was incorrect- until you can explain, using any example of a red flag, how this could have been 'detected' or 'defended against' without someone with good intentions and an honest interest in conversion not being badly hurt on an OOC level and possibly losing the game a player? I see no reason for anyone to engage further with your points, such that they are.
Toz
7
Re: The Producer's Dilemma
The fundamental problem here is there is no mechanical fix to metagaming, and anyone who doesn't think this was metagaming when there was, and is, such a clear disconnect between what was said and done ingame, and what was said and done out of game, is fooling themselves because they're spoiling for conflict.The well was poisoned already.
I am never going to be happy with people going out of their way to make players suffer. It is callous and toxic behaviour that should be removed from the community. No other course of action is going to make me happy, because it means I will forever have to distrust my fellow players and their intentions. As @toz said, the well has been poisoned. I am not going to trust a single soul who comes to me looking for Trade aide status.
Or after this thread, like half of you period, frankly. There's a distressing and sociopathic lack of basic empathy on display here.
But I wonder that you speak of empathy and trust...have you ever thought if there is some kind of callous behaviour among the players that might not be due to the sociopathic lack of basic empathy in individuals?
There is a saying in Turkish which can be roughly translated to "Fire burns where it falls" meaning that the pain is suffered most by the one who is inflicted.
When I was dealing with both OOC and IC shitstorm in this game I have seen that there was a severe lack of empathy, rampant metagaming and utter ignorance within the playerbase.
So this time fire fell upon Enorian, next time it may fall elsewhere. You cannot purge this kind of toxicity. You can simply mask it or sweep it under the rug.
But in the end you do not have to distrust players. For example, a player whom you hate to the bone, ICly could be your steadfast ally and friend while the reverse can be true. You should distrust the character, take your decision purely based on IC indicators. Then everything will fall into the place.
The main issue here is that people allowed their OOC sensibilities get in the way of seeing IC "red flags" so they got burned. I feel empathy for them, betrayal of that kind hurts but that does not prevent me from putting forth criticism on handling of this event at all. The handling was poor, reactions were emotional and everything went haywire.
The lesson is: Cut the wheat from chaff. Where the chaff is OOC and wheat is IC.
Kalak
-3
Re: The Producer's Dilemma
The conduct of the admin in this particular event was highly unprofessional because 100 RL days of disfavor on four different gods will undoubtedly send a clear message to the players: Admin WANTS this to happen or else... It is fairly irrelevant whether there was an actual intention or it was just to scare them into submission, it was a very hasty and overpowered reaction which smells purely OOC from all sides.
First of all it did not allow players to play out the crisis and the likely outcome was that Enorian either bandaging their wounds or starting to negotiate with Spirean officials to recover what they can in exchange of perhaps some concessions even. It would be more fun and productive to let people ride this out instead of nuking a guild which plays its role into ground and scaring them in such a manner.
Personally when I logged in, it felt quite exciting for once... I thought there would be actual meaty stuff going on where my character can report the ongoings. Then I learn commodities are returned after a massive curse-barrage upon the guild. Yeah...nothing much changed except the hurt feelings. So...why even bother? If players cannot make an impact upon the game, if they will meet with OOC pressure whenever someone has hurt feelings over an event...then it really lowered my faith in the playerbase and the game.
Also at this point credibility of corrupt, manipulative Gods has been damaged beyond reparation in my eyes for they did not stand up for this act at all. Might as well delete them if Admin will rebuff the few acts which causes a real crisis situation through manipulation, which could end up with domination of one side for awhile.
Now @Toz says "The well has been poisoned" actually the well was already poisoned but people simply noticed that when a good number of people are affected. There should be a reason the conflict stagnates. There should be a reason some guilds keep trying to pick their pieces after a long time, remaining in "rebuilding(tm)" state. There should be a reason some cities are hurting for players. But truly I am tired to state them out at this point.
Right now this very outcome feels like that Aetolia is very far from what it advertises. It is neither a dark fantasy, nor a dangerous world because players cannot accept a loss and swallow the bitter pill. And admin supports that safe approach to the bone.
First of all it did not allow players to play out the crisis and the likely outcome was that Enorian either bandaging their wounds or starting to negotiate with Spirean officials to recover what they can in exchange of perhaps some concessions even. It would be more fun and productive to let people ride this out instead of nuking a guild which plays its role into ground and scaring them in such a manner.
Personally when I logged in, it felt quite exciting for once... I thought there would be actual meaty stuff going on where my character can report the ongoings. Then I learn commodities are returned after a massive curse-barrage upon the guild. Yeah...nothing much changed except the hurt feelings. So...why even bother? If players cannot make an impact upon the game, if they will meet with OOC pressure whenever someone has hurt feelings over an event...then it really lowered my faith in the playerbase and the game.
Also at this point credibility of corrupt, manipulative Gods has been damaged beyond reparation in my eyes for they did not stand up for this act at all. Might as well delete them if Admin will rebuff the few acts which causes a real crisis situation through manipulation, which could end up with domination of one side for awhile.
Now @Toz says "The well has been poisoned" actually the well was already poisoned but people simply noticed that when a good number of people are affected. There should be a reason the conflict stagnates. There should be a reason some guilds keep trying to pick their pieces after a long time, remaining in "rebuilding(tm)" state. There should be a reason some cities are hurting for players. But truly I am tired to state them out at this point.
Right now this very outcome feels like that Aetolia is very far from what it advertises. It is neither a dark fantasy, nor a dangerous world because players cannot accept a loss and swallow the bitter pill. And admin supports that safe approach to the bone.
Kalak
3
Re: The Producer's Dilemma
KYNA EDIT: Removing reference to removed post.
@Shachalai Read above quote perhaps it is pretty "Love or Leave" themed with direct insults. That mentality exists in minds of several people when they used to tell "This is not how Aetolia is!" trying to shove their way of playing down others' throats.
I am writing everything in good faith though that does not mean I have to embellish my words and sweeten the truth for people to swallow it easily. People are apparently having a hard time to grasp the reality that they are having difficulties in differentiating IC circumstances from OOC circumstances. So yeah, someone has to tell the truth and be treated as the spawn of devil or something.
Otherwise, the whole thread would turn into an echo chamber. Aetolia is already a gigantic echo chamber full of lesser echo chambers.
@Shachalai Read above quote perhaps it is pretty "Love or Leave" themed with direct insults. That mentality exists in minds of several people when they used to tell "This is not how Aetolia is!" trying to shove their way of playing down others' throats.
I am writing everything in good faith though that does not mean I have to embellish my words and sweeten the truth for people to swallow it easily. People are apparently having a hard time to grasp the reality that they are having difficulties in differentiating IC circumstances from OOC circumstances. So yeah, someone has to tell the truth and be treated as the spawn of devil or something.
Otherwise, the whole thread would turn into an echo chamber. Aetolia is already a gigantic echo chamber full of lesser echo chambers.
Kalak
0
Re: The Producer's Dilemma
I mean.. for an 'event' that was this big.. we could all just do what I did and scream at admins and ask for an opinion/clarification. Heck, they might even have ideas to make it a real event if it is good enough.
(dunno if the leadership wants to deal with a sudden influx of requests and ideas along this vein, though)
(dunno if the leadership wants to deal with a sudden influx of requests and ideas along this vein, though)
Satomi
0
Re: The Producer's Dilemma
... It would be more fun and productive to let people ride this out instead of nuking a guild which plays its role into ground and scaring them in such a manner...You seem completely incapable of thinking outside of your own false dichotomy. There exist as many ways to produce "meaty stuff" or "make an impact upon the game" as you are capable of writing in the English language, and yet you seem to think only griefing The Enemy as hard as you possibly can will sate your desire for a good story.
... I thought there would be actual meaty stuff going on where my character can report the ongoings... If players cannot make an impact upon the game, if they will meet with OOC pressure whenever someone has hurt feelings over an event... then it really lowered my faith in the playerbase and the game.
... Might as well delete them if Admin will rebuff the few acts which causes a real crisis situation through manipulation...
This drives me nuts. No, of course, this is the only thing the Syssin could have done. This is the roleplay that anchors the entire Shadow side of the game. Nevermind any other options, those are under the rug.
Edit: Snipped Kalak's post for clarity.
Lin
5
Re: The Producer's Dilemma
Jesus Christ, your position is so skewed from reality that you're staring up the barrel of your own backside.
The disfavours were IC and confined to IC shells. Spinning this as 'unprofessional' and 'manipulative' is complete horseshit. You're ignoring every single thing that Tiur posted about the process and positions taken by admin in favour of pushing your own made-up agenda.
If you require players to feel completely screwed around to get your jollies, then personally I'm glad you don't find the current status quo satisfying.
The disfavours were IC and confined to IC shells. Spinning this as 'unprofessional' and 'manipulative' is complete horseshit. You're ignoring every single thing that Tiur posted about the process and positions taken by admin in favour of pushing your own made-up agenda.
If you require players to feel completely screwed around to get your jollies, then personally I'm glad you don't find the current status quo satisfying.
Mihaketi
11
Re: The Producer's Dilemma
...I am just going to step in here and say that the "Syssin" did not make this decision. I don't feel the need to air any other dirty laundry of the Guild beside that.
However, in defense of the players, after the "plan" was executed and the Guild was hexxed, there was a great number of Syssin who were of the position of "well, let's see how this goes" and were not crying about the hexing and argued with the same leader who put them into that situation in the first place to not take the easy way out of it.
Yes, the Syssin are the great big boogie men of the game and they very well should be - I led the Syssin for a very long time and I made decisions that I knew would be unpopular with the playerbase based on the roleplay of the Guild (warring with the vampires, anyone?). But there is a balance that has to be struck there and I will tell you that there are plenty of people in the Syssin who recognize that.
What I think is premature, honestly, is assuming that the situation is done and over with just because Enorian has their commodities back and the Syssin aren't hexxed anymore. The Syssin themselves have not had the time to work through their own internal response to what happened and what decisions their leader made for them unbeknownst to them.
However, in defense of the players, after the "plan" was executed and the Guild was hexxed, there was a great number of Syssin who were of the position of "well, let's see how this goes" and were not crying about the hexing and argued with the same leader who put them into that situation in the first place to not take the easy way out of it.
Yes, the Syssin are the great big boogie men of the game and they very well should be - I led the Syssin for a very long time and I made decisions that I knew would be unpopular with the playerbase based on the roleplay of the Guild (warring with the vampires, anyone?). But there is a balance that has to be struck there and I will tell you that there are plenty of people in the Syssin who recognize that.
What I think is premature, honestly, is assuming that the situation is done and over with just because Enorian has their commodities back and the Syssin aren't hexxed anymore. The Syssin themselves have not had the time to work through their own internal response to what happened and what decisions their leader made for them unbeknownst to them.
Faerah
5
Re: A Goodbye
Then you're being deliberately antagonistic to the people in this thread who have expressed that this was predicated on out of character investment and deception, and you're making a point of saying that they shouldn't feel the way they feel because you, as a completely uninvolved person, disagree. If you won't acknowledge that, then you should at least acknowledge that it's crass, rude and in poor taste to sit in someone's thread declaring that they can't stomach the behavior of players and soapbox relentlessly about it.
Have a shred of empathy and make your own thread about how awful the admin are if it's that kind of problem for you, stop taking a dump on everyone in this thread who is hurt by what happened.
Have a shred of empathy and make your own thread about how awful the admin are if it's that kind of problem for you, stop taking a dump on everyone in this thread who is hurt by what happened.
Mihaketi
3