Best Of

The problem, Kalak, is that YOU want an Enorian where we have witch hunts. You want an Enorian of the past, of over zealous people who are paranoid, who don't want to give people a second, or even third chance. That's not the Enorian the players right now want, nor is it the Enorian that, in my meeting with our former producer, the game was seeking. You want a city that doesn't exist, and, frankly? It shouldn't have to just so people can do this sort of shitty thing. I don't mind spy rp, a betrayal. But it's straight up the ABSURD lengths the theft was taken to.

And I'll say this: I do not believe for one moment Spinesreach would've given anything back, had there not been intervention. Be it Xenia, be it Gods, be it some other, good natured player. If the people who had been in charge of this 'espionage' had been the only ones making the choice, they would've kept it, and spent the next years IRL gloating about it to make them feel really cool and tough. And that kind of behavior, that kind of callous disregard for, again, PEOPLE behind KEYBOARDS is a poison. If you want a game full of callous people who don't care about their fellow player, I hope to god you have to find another one. Not because I want anyone run out, but because I will not stick around if that behavior becomes the norm. Not a chance.

1. So, to start, I object to the notion that a 'large amount of work' went into this. Only three Syssin, by their own admission, even were aware this was happening. Spy RP is, by and large, terrible...

2. What does the other side risk? Oh boy. Guard dismissal, commodity theft, gold heist, credit theft, RP damaged, raids from subdivision housing, etc. etc...There are no 'win' conditions, no point in time at which a mole can be discovered by mortals (short of appallingly sloppy play, like sending a letter to the wrong person), and there is no point at which they have to go back home having 'failed'...So what we have, at the crux of this issue, is an incredibly unfair and lopsided scenario...

3. ...They were then robbed far beyond what was reasonable or appropriate....

4. There are two very important things here. The first is that Aetolians as a whole are unwilling to lose...In engaging in this conflict, they did not engage in good faith because there was no way they could lose...This is especially vile to me because, as a good few of you know, I also play Cole. Which means I logged in every day to RP with the person in question, traded letters, and invested time ensuring they had a good time while they played...

5. This brings me to my second point. There was a scorn for the investment that characters represent present in how these people behaved...See my previous point about spy RP being a 'matter of time' - at no point is it ever truly safe to take the restrictions off of a convert...

6. ...the admin-imposed redemption arc of Enorian makes them especially vulnerable to this...

7. Without OOC trust of one another, there cannot be RP loss. Only mechanical loss...

@Shachalai You seem to be extremely passionate about @Toz's post and heck, I might as well be game. So lets get out the scalpel and dissect this beast. Above is an abridged version of the epic length post, but I think these are the portions that are most worth addressing. Feel free to disagree.

1. A large amount of work did not go into this and Spy RP is terrible - I think simply from a time investment we can fairly say that a large amount of work went into this. Spy RP is not terrible in my view. Spy RP is difficult and realistic spy RP is extremely difficult. I hold a similar view to @Kalak, and that signs of betrayal can often be spotted even if they are not intended to be there. Nothing wrong with Spy RP and work clearly went into this. This was a pretty amazing long con.

2. This was unfair - An undiscovered spy always has advantage. Period. Think of it in DnD terms. The hidden rogue has advantage. You get that juicy sneak attack. The strike that they don't see coming. When you're fighting against a spy you're working at a disadvantage. So it's unfair, but why does that matter? The game doesn't have to be fair in all aspects. A fight between a level 80 dual virtuoso character vs an omni-trans Idreth is unfair. But unfairness is not inherently bad in this context. This is not a real world scenario and ethics of real life do not directly translate. Even if this is true (and I disagree with that) it is an issue of mechanics and not behavior.

3. The amount stolen was unreasonable - Agreed. This is a mechanical issue and was fixed by @Tiur.

4. Aetolians are unwilling to lose/feelings were hurt - Agree with the first part. We have a coddled player base that feels entitled to victory. Loss is anathema to them. They would rather take their toys and go home. We have some serious problems with the behavior of a significant amount of our player base, or at least the most visible portion. SEE: This thread and the previous thread.

5. This act represents scorn for other players/matter of time - I feel Toz just asserted this without backing it up. Why is this scornful? Because it may have negative IC consequences for un-involved parties? Matter of time also seems to be a specious claim. This could have gone a lot of ways and nothing predestined that things would go as they did. I feel it's fair to reject this part outright.

6. An admin imposed path to redemption - The admin can say you're doing redemption but you don't have to follow an easy path. You can be pretty brutal. Admin said redemption, but they did not say redemption is easy or pretty. SEE: Religious penance over recorded history.

7. Without OOC trust there cannot be IC loss - I reject this entirely. Why should I have to have an OOC relationship with anyone for this? I don't have to know you or anything about who you are as a person to RP with you in a satisfying way. That's the POINT. We as people are not the CHARACTERS that we portray.

To conclude, see the bolded portions for what I think are the most important points.

EDIT: A little more conclusion.

What I agree with - (3 & 4) The scale of the theft was not good and should not have been possible, Aetolians are bad at accepting loss or dissenting opions, people's feelings were hurt.

What I disagree with - (1-2 & 5-7) Everything else.

@Shachalai Sorry but assuming there is zero risk is abyssmally wrong. If the person is found out, they will lose the trust of the other organization like forever. And they can even remain an enemy for a very long time or indefinitely. No one likes traitors. It should not be too hard to accept that Enorian failed the espionage game. Also the idea that people decide how they present themselves via what they type into the game, control every tell perfectly tailored to whatever they like...is acceptable when you are not good at reading through the words of people.

Most of the time I can read through people's words on what they intend, but Kalak generally upholds the concept of "Trust once, but once only" So yes, there are times my character got screwed too. But that is because of a design decision rather then I can be manipulated. The words of people generally will betray their intentions. Failure to see indicators...eh...there is nothing can be done about that.

@Shachalai People subconsciously are prone to give you hints or indicators in their speech patterns or how they act towards you. Even in MUD games, that holds true while it may be trickier. So what is said is not mutually exclusive. People don't have to give you any clues "willingly" and you can still fail to see the indicators lurking around their person. That is pretty consistent.

So please stop trying to pick some small pockets in quotes and try to portray me as someone inconsistent. Instead get involved. Pick the details in the way people type, then you shall find your answers.

You are asking people to determine meaning - shaded with both IC and OOC context - from unaided, unadorned text within a fictional setting.

Text lacks a clear and consistent means of denoting emphasis, tone, pitch, and micropauses.

Unlike real life behavior, this game is not only missing reliable means of communicating these things, but a character's behavior is subject to more premeditation and deliberation than someone just spontaneously acting in real life. You can control for a lot of factors that you can't in real life.

Writing style, word choice, grammar, emphasis - these are all subjective things, and by nature of the fact that language is an imprecise tool, the same ideas and the same words will communicate very different impressions to different people.

Essentially, you're just asking us to guess, and if we guess wrong, we lose all our commodities.

That's somehow even worse than the contradiction you initially presented.

See also, the Toz post you've consistently failed to engage with:

[Spy RP] cannot be detected save through shortcomings of the person doing it, there is no money trail tying them back to Russia, you can't go through their mail and look for key words - so long as they keep to tells, or just don't talk about it at all after being sent out, it's really just a matter of playing the waiting game and waiting for things to hit.

@Shachalai People do not have to give you any clues willingly, you have to cut the wheat from chaff. Engage them, observe them and draw a conclusion. I think at this point you try to mask the obvious failure of Enorian players by attributing to the external situations.

Wait, wait.

Also the idea that people decide how they present themselves via what they type into the game, control every tell perfectly tailored to whatever they like...is acceptable when you are not good at reading through the words of people. ... Most of the time I can read through people's words on what they intend, but Kalak generally upholds the concept of "Trust once, but once only" So yes, there are times my character got screwed too. But that is because of a design decision rather then I can be manipulated. The words of people generally will betray their intentions. Failure to see indicators...eh...there is nothing can be done about that.

Which is it? 'People don't have to give you any clues willingly', or 'you failed to see the indicators'?

You have to pick one in order to remain consistent.