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Re: Community Behaviour
i don't know how to express this totally, but i feel like there is a real tension in the community with how actions get perceived. more importantly, there's an issue with how we communicate about those perceptions.
my previous character fell victim to this a lot. before i retired her, she was extremely active, a feared PKer, GM overseeing the resurgence of a very old shadow-tether guild that now no longer exists (guess who i am lol). the more """important""" my character was, the more it seemed like her behavior got read into on all sides.
for example, in the lead-up to some events where my behavior was utterly indefensible, Tiur approached me to say there were concerns in the pools that i tend to 'take over' or 'dominate' events, and so he wanted to give me a heads-up that he'd authorized them to remove me (or others) for 'making trouble'. i asked for clarification about what behavior was the problem, but ultimately, he kinda just peaced out. i was left to scratch my head.
you may wonder - well, what went wrong there? in my opinion, a couple things.
first, there were no specifics given. if we want to see behaviors changed, we need to be able to speak about the specifics. making general statements that someone is dominating without pointing out *how* they're dominating is likely to leave them guessing about what they need to fix.
second, and relatedly, there was no attempt to question the assumption that i was intending to be disruptive. sure, we can't always know what people are thinking, and sometimes it doesn't matter. however, if i'd been asked whether i understood that X behavior came across as dominating, i would've been shocked and apologetic. it's part of my personality or way of thinking about things that, even if i don't *mean* some particular offense by something i'm doing, i will almost always stop and apologize when i'm told it's bothering people (see, for example, my post earlier in this thread about the time i was solo defiling shrines). if you don't ask the question, though - if you just accept the assumption that someone is deliberately misbehaving - it closes you off to being mollified, and it puts the accused in a defensive posture by default. sometimes you need to be willing not to be angry, or to be wrong about what someone is meaning, in order to productively move forward.
[[N.B. i'm not using this example to air some personal grievance as, for me, this particular occurrence is in the past, and besides, how i reacted was way more of a problem. i'm also not trying to pick on Tiur - who i genuinely believe is nice and trying his best. i mainly chose this example because, well, i know my experiences best, so i talk about them rather than guessing at others' experiences. the other reason is that i think we sometimes need to remember that the Pools are part of the community - they need to remember this when they think about and act toward regular players, but we also need to remember that in our own behavior.]]
anyways, i see both these things a lot in how we relate to each other. it comes up across tether the most, i suppose, but i've even experienced it with people on my own side (notably, i was once accused of being a megalomaniac dictator for my character sending a message to three members of my guild requesting to talk to them about a city decision they'd been involved with). if we could simply speak to each other, though... well, who knows? i think there's a lot of value in honestly, non-aggressively saying "i feel x when you do y" and hearing what the other person has to say about it without trying to perform armchair psychoanalysis or being completely, utterly certain we know their motivations.
just, like, give each other the benefit of the doubt as much as possible. ask questions without without assuming you know the answers. when you do have a problem, be specific so someone who has a good faith desire to fix things can actually act on the conversation rather than feeling like they've gotta walk on eggshells because they don't know what the issue really is.
and for the love of god, if all the above is a bit much and you only take one thing away from all this, remember that i'm just a giant goofball. i never, ever start out malicious, so please tell me if you're hurt or upset by something i'm doing ICly, because that's 1000000% not what i'm about.
my previous character fell victim to this a lot. before i retired her, she was extremely active, a feared PKer, GM overseeing the resurgence of a very old shadow-tether guild that now no longer exists (guess who i am lol). the more """important""" my character was, the more it seemed like her behavior got read into on all sides.
for example, in the lead-up to some events where my behavior was utterly indefensible, Tiur approached me to say there were concerns in the pools that i tend to 'take over' or 'dominate' events, and so he wanted to give me a heads-up that he'd authorized them to remove me (or others) for 'making trouble'. i asked for clarification about what behavior was the problem, but ultimately, he kinda just peaced out. i was left to scratch my head.
you may wonder - well, what went wrong there? in my opinion, a couple things.
first, there were no specifics given. if we want to see behaviors changed, we need to be able to speak about the specifics. making general statements that someone is dominating without pointing out *how* they're dominating is likely to leave them guessing about what they need to fix.
second, and relatedly, there was no attempt to question the assumption that i was intending to be disruptive. sure, we can't always know what people are thinking, and sometimes it doesn't matter. however, if i'd been asked whether i understood that X behavior came across as dominating, i would've been shocked and apologetic. it's part of my personality or way of thinking about things that, even if i don't *mean* some particular offense by something i'm doing, i will almost always stop and apologize when i'm told it's bothering people (see, for example, my post earlier in this thread about the time i was solo defiling shrines). if you don't ask the question, though - if you just accept the assumption that someone is deliberately misbehaving - it closes you off to being mollified, and it puts the accused in a defensive posture by default. sometimes you need to be willing not to be angry, or to be wrong about what someone is meaning, in order to productively move forward.
[[N.B. i'm not using this example to air some personal grievance as, for me, this particular occurrence is in the past, and besides, how i reacted was way more of a problem. i'm also not trying to pick on Tiur - who i genuinely believe is nice and trying his best. i mainly chose this example because, well, i know my experiences best, so i talk about them rather than guessing at others' experiences. the other reason is that i think we sometimes need to remember that the Pools are part of the community - they need to remember this when they think about and act toward regular players, but we also need to remember that in our own behavior.]]
anyways, i see both these things a lot in how we relate to each other. it comes up across tether the most, i suppose, but i've even experienced it with people on my own side (notably, i was once accused of being a megalomaniac dictator for my character sending a message to three members of my guild requesting to talk to them about a city decision they'd been involved with). if we could simply speak to each other, though... well, who knows? i think there's a lot of value in honestly, non-aggressively saying "i feel x when you do y" and hearing what the other person has to say about it without trying to perform armchair psychoanalysis or being completely, utterly certain we know their motivations.
just, like, give each other the benefit of the doubt as much as possible. ask questions without without assuming you know the answers. when you do have a problem, be specific so someone who has a good faith desire to fix things can actually act on the conversation rather than feeling like they've gotta walk on eggshells because they don't know what the issue really is.
and for the love of god, if all the above is a bit much and you only take one thing away from all this, remember that i'm just a giant goofball. i never, ever start out malicious, so please tell me if you're hurt or upset by something i'm doing ICly, because that's 1000000% not what i'm about.
Hawa
7
Re: Ankyrean Archives: The Podcast
Ended up skipping the weekly episode on Sunday due to some technical issues from @Zaila but it's alright, we'll get back to it this coming Sunday.
In other news, we've locked down a time and date for myself, @Aloli, and @Tiur for the Q&A. I will be posting the link to it once its recorded and done, in this thread, and not the Q&A thread. We had that thread closed, as it was just for question submissions. We have decided to do it this coming Friday, at 6 PM EST. So, given the length of the podcast, and I imagine it will be a long one, I'd expect to see it up and posted in this thread sometime in the evening on Friday, maybe like 8-9 EST. I'll certainly be getting it to you all ASAP.
In other news, we've locked down a time and date for myself, @Aloli, and @Tiur for the Q&A. I will be posting the link to it once its recorded and done, in this thread, and not the Q&A thread. We had that thread closed, as it was just for question submissions. We have decided to do it this coming Friday, at 6 PM EST. So, given the length of the podcast, and I imagine it will be a long one, I'd expect to see it up and posted in this thread sometime in the evening on Friday, maybe like 8-9 EST. I'll certainly be getting it to you all ASAP.
Aeryx
5
Re: Community Behaviour
I think the problem is responding to IC situations with OOC reasoning. This is the very definition of meta gaming and it never ends well. So what if you and someone else are friendly OOC? That should NOT affect choices made IC unless your character is the merciful type or something. I'm on friendly terms with Zynti but that didn't change my response when he was raiding Spines. I hunted him constantly on Tcanna and I'm sure that wasn't fun for him OOCly but that's the nature of RP.
I'd really like to see both tethers and all guilds/orders/cities growing a pair and acting IC how they were made to without people getting upset OOC.
I'd really like to see both tethers and all guilds/orders/cities growing a pair and acting IC how they were made to without people getting upset OOC.
Drystin
7
Re: Community Behaviour
About the Estella/guildhall invasion situation (as one of the people there when the guild hall invasion started)
----
With the possible exception of those who feel ICly obligated to participate but don't genuinely enjoy it OOCly, everyone involved was having a good time with this. Estella was asked repeated by us other carnis OOCly if she was being griefed, she insisted that she was not, but that she was having a blast at being chased off with zero success. The guild hall was invaded and only those of us who attacked/defended were targeted. Estella was the only one being attacked until we came to fend off the invasion of our guildhall.
And it was pretty hilarious, because I was somehow the "most competent carnifex combatant online" for awhile. Needless to say, the invaders got a good head-start on laying that wormhole groundwork
Being at the invasion from start to finish, it was a good time, handled well by the invaders. Naturally, there was salt on the darkie end, people misrepresented how it went down, etc. because people aren't infallible and they were the ones being attacked, but the invaders were not being unfair.
Estella went back to having a grand time trying to outrun Bene and co after, and I'm sure some other carnis went along with her to help in retaliation for the invasion.
------------
10:10, would happily be invaded again!
----
With the possible exception of those who feel ICly obligated to participate but don't genuinely enjoy it OOCly, everyone involved was having a good time with this. Estella was asked repeated by us other carnis OOCly if she was being griefed, she insisted that she was not, but that she was having a blast at being chased off with zero success. The guild hall was invaded and only those of us who attacked/defended were targeted. Estella was the only one being attacked until we came to fend off the invasion of our guildhall.
And it was pretty hilarious, because I was somehow the "most competent carnifex combatant online" for awhile. Needless to say, the invaders got a good head-start on laying that wormhole groundwork
Being at the invasion from start to finish, it was a good time, handled well by the invaders. Naturally, there was salt on the darkie end, people misrepresented how it went down, etc. because people aren't infallible and they were the ones being attacked, but the invaders were not being unfair.
Estella went back to having a grand time trying to outrun Bene and co after, and I'm sure some other carnis went along with her to help in retaliation for the invasion.
------------
10:10, would happily be invaded again!
Zaila
5
Re: Community Behaviour
As someone that is from another IRE where we actually have a "healthy" war/raiding system, a shrine dusting guild task would not raise eyebrows and at most times the entire enemy city will show up at your shrine (lets talk about glorious worldburn). Why? Because there are ways for players to retaliate. In this instance, I'm still not seeing how Iosyne's Order could mechanically retaliate WITHOUT a holy war and I don't understand why it's being painted as a bad thing? What I am considering from this conversation is that the Templar decided upon an enemy shrine and dusted -5- each, which in any sane mind is an act of war. So I'm genuinely curious, how could Iosyne's order have dealt with this differently? How are they to discourage this behavior? How do they know the Templar don't have a gigantic poster with iosyne's shrine scribbled with a big red X? I love conflict, but conflict would not be so without a little give and take.
Moxie
6
Re: Community Behaviour
@Hammar How much anime did you watch in preparing for your role as Bamathis? Do you fall asleep to one punch man?
Ehtias
7
Why Vampires are Bad and How to Fix It
I’m going to try to keep this as brief and concise as I can, so forgive me if it seems like I’m being too brusque. I’m also going to preface this with a disclaimer that my criticisms are largely about mechanics and organizational structure, and how those tie into each other, and is not a slam of individual players, and it should not be taken that way.
Vampires, pardon the pun, absolutely suck right now. I think you’d be hard-pressed to make a convincing argument otherwise. The goal of this post is to diagnose, from my personal perspective, why this is the case and, hopefully, prescribe fixes to the problem. So here we go, point by point
PROBLEMS
This, I feel, is arguably simpler and less long-winded than the above, I hope.
In any case, these are my thoughts. I really think Vamps are overdue for a revamp.
Vampires, pardon the pun, absolutely suck right now. I think you’d be hard-pressed to make a convincing argument otherwise. The goal of this post is to diagnose, from my personal perspective, why this is the case and, hopefully, prescribe fixes to the problem. So here we go, point by point
PROBLEMS
- The Dominion was a bad idea: I actually don't know the reasoning behind boxing Vampires, a subrace, into another cookie-cutter guild. I'm guessing it was an attempt to solve the problem of languishing Houses by consolidating vampires into one group home. The problem with this, however, is that, for years vampirism was mechanically organic and fluid, allowing for a free expansion of the class base. This created some problems, sure, and definitely problems worth fixing, but jamming everything into one guild is, I think, ultimately the biggest central source of the problems associated with the current set-up. Almost all the current problems stem from this specific choice. Even if the Dominion were an amazing guild with super active membership and great roleplay, this would still be a problem, because it flies in the face of one of the biggest appeals of vampirism: that you can find a vampire in the wild and become a vampire yourself. Which brings me to my next point.
- Fencing off Embrace/Siring mechanics behind the Dominion was a bad idea: this is probably my biggest complaint. Having to be within the Dominion (or have the Primus's blessing or something?) in order to embrace new vampires is just...like why? It seems like this was a loose justification for the Dominion's existence, but what it does instead is hold the class and subrace hostage in order to force people to join the Dominion. It's creating a problem so you can sell the solution. What infuriates me the most about this, though, is that multiclassing across the board is WAY more free than this, so why on earth is a class that, historically, has been egalitarian and open (its main appeal for many), somehow more constrictive than any other class in the game now?
- Having the Monomythic Primus be a regular, run of the mill player was a bad idea: this is probably the closest thing to what may seem like a personal attack, but I really don't mean it as any slight against Callidora. The main strength of a character like Abhorash was that the dude basically didn't exist. He was a free-floating idea of a person to which people could ascribe various qualities. In short, he was a myth, and it was really, really good. Now, we have player-played Primuses, which dramatically cheapens the mythos of vampires. Because unless a player playing the Primus is an expert politician, an unflappable combatant, a philosopher of the highest caliber, and an economic genius, they're always going to fall short in the face of a myth. So having that role, one with such significance in the lore be handled by a player, just reduces the quality of the lore behind vampires. This one is more of a theming complaint, but I think it ties in regardless.
This, I feel, is arguably simpler and less long-winded than the above, I hope.
Cut a hole in the boxDelete the Dominion: gone. It shouldn't be a thing anymore.- Make Vampirism a true subrace pseudoclass like Shapeshifters
- Let all vampires with the skill embrace anyone they want.
- Get rid of peerage as a coded thing.
- Reduce the significance of the Primus/Progenitor thing by just, like, I don't know, killing off Abhorash or something.
- Maybe even make an NPC that can give people vampirism. I mean, newbies can make themselves undead ffs.
In any case, these are my thoughts. I really think Vamps are overdue for a revamp.
Tetchta
8
Re: Community Behaviour
For the record - and please tell me if this information is incorrect, I am hearing it secondhand - when the producer of our game says something along the lines of "Aetolia is good at running off undesirables" in a public Discord server, perhaps changes to community behaviour need to start at the top.So, I'm still trying to get my head around all this, but this needs note. What I said was
I've always been pleasantly surprised by Aetolia's community. All the games have their good people and their bad people, but Aetolia as a whole will run bad actors off on their ownAnd by that, I mean that Aetolians will get together and have cogent discussions about behavior without the need for me to step in. For instance: I regularly find commands that do not have protection on them against FORCE abilities. Sometimes this could be a big deal. It never is. I often look up usage and find that no one has even tried, and if they did, it's bugged and people are warned off behavior by other players. Aetolians tend to understand that this is a game, and some things aren't fun for anyone. I fix the command, but I love that it's rarely a problem.
Tiur
10
Re: Community Behaviour
What....the old guy is posting. Yes, yes I am.
First, I want to say if I am not about, it has nothing to do with the conflict and more about me going crazy because my latency has gone through the roof and I can't figure out why. I like PK, I have no problem with it in general.
I think it is more about the method of conflict. I see all the stuff going on in the order. It is pretty small, with very few known combatants. Not to take away anything from the ones in there that still fight. They are solid. The issue, unlike Bamathis vs Slyphe as mentioned above, is there is no real resolution or even stated basis. Everyone was pretty much like...what happened? It seemed very manufactured as an easy win (just stating things from what i saw mentioned on order tells) and with little end game closing, which is where you run into trouble. It is a guild, vs. a order. How does the order really fight back? What shrines do you attack? There is at least 4 orders within the Templar guild. Mechanics are pretty bad in this instance. I think if the Templar guild really wanted a constructive PK scene, why not engage one of the leaders of the other factions and do it in a productive manner.
Could we have engaged other guilds and orders to fight back? Sure, but I personally didn't want to. In fact, I was doing 1v1 battles today against defilers while my latency wasn't super horrible. I think there is a mentality now that any form of losing is toxic, and most people will do anything to avoid it. A couple of examples. I killed Ranae while in the Shattered Vortex. I could have killed Anahera, but left them alone (even though a PK zone) Why? Because that wouldn't be healthy for me to kill a young combatant like that. I didn't bring a squad, just me vs. Ranae. I did the same for every single member i could find outside of the city (at least five different Templars). What happened? They all ran or called for reinforcements. The only one who stayed to fight was Benedicto, 1v1 and didn't call for backup. I respect that.
It seemed like this was a tool for conflict, but when conflict (equal conflict) presented itself, it was avoided.
On a side note, I understand Bulrok's frustrations. There was a time that we all were very close with Benedicto. I miss it. What happened, not even sure anymore? Things broke down, and they got compounded and now instead of healthy constructive PK, it has devolved into the only time conflict happens is when you know you win and crush the other team. Yes, both sides do it, I know. Not many try anymore, even when they say it from one side, but exhibit something from the other side.
What can we all do? Calm down. Try better options, maybe talk to your opponent first, even if in a ooc manner when trying to pull off a large scale conflict option. Before, not after. Reach out to the other side in a constructive way. I try to always be open to any questions. I don't horde my skills and will help anyone from any tether anytime you ask (if I am not afk). If you want to gloat, keep it to yourself. If you want to be an ass, keep it to yourself. If you want to say good fight, but with no condescending manner, do it. If you want to genuinely help, reach out. It may be tough at first, but keep trying. I try to be better every day.
Ramblings from an old guy.
First, I want to say if I am not about, it has nothing to do with the conflict and more about me going crazy because my latency has gone through the roof and I can't figure out why. I like PK, I have no problem with it in general.
I think it is more about the method of conflict. I see all the stuff going on in the order. It is pretty small, with very few known combatants. Not to take away anything from the ones in there that still fight. They are solid. The issue, unlike Bamathis vs Slyphe as mentioned above, is there is no real resolution or even stated basis. Everyone was pretty much like...what happened? It seemed very manufactured as an easy win (just stating things from what i saw mentioned on order tells) and with little end game closing, which is where you run into trouble. It is a guild, vs. a order. How does the order really fight back? What shrines do you attack? There is at least 4 orders within the Templar guild. Mechanics are pretty bad in this instance. I think if the Templar guild really wanted a constructive PK scene, why not engage one of the leaders of the other factions and do it in a productive manner.
Could we have engaged other guilds and orders to fight back? Sure, but I personally didn't want to. In fact, I was doing 1v1 battles today against defilers while my latency wasn't super horrible. I think there is a mentality now that any form of losing is toxic, and most people will do anything to avoid it. A couple of examples. I killed Ranae while in the Shattered Vortex. I could have killed Anahera, but left them alone (even though a PK zone) Why? Because that wouldn't be healthy for me to kill a young combatant like that. I didn't bring a squad, just me vs. Ranae. I did the same for every single member i could find outside of the city (at least five different Templars). What happened? They all ran or called for reinforcements. The only one who stayed to fight was Benedicto, 1v1 and didn't call for backup. I respect that.
It seemed like this was a tool for conflict, but when conflict (equal conflict) presented itself, it was avoided.
On a side note, I understand Bulrok's frustrations. There was a time that we all were very close with Benedicto. I miss it. What happened, not even sure anymore? Things broke down, and they got compounded and now instead of healthy constructive PK, it has devolved into the only time conflict happens is when you know you win and crush the other team. Yes, both sides do it, I know. Not many try anymore, even when they say it from one side, but exhibit something from the other side.
What can we all do? Calm down. Try better options, maybe talk to your opponent first, even if in a ooc manner when trying to pull off a large scale conflict option. Before, not after. Reach out to the other side in a constructive way. I try to always be open to any questions. I don't horde my skills and will help anyone from any tether anytime you ask (if I am not afk). If you want to gloat, keep it to yourself. If you want to be an ass, keep it to yourself. If you want to say good fight, but with no condescending manner, do it. If you want to genuinely help, reach out. It may be tough at first, but keep trying. I try to be better every day.
Ramblings from an old guy.
Mazzion
10
Re: Community Behaviour
I don't think stifling discussions on community behaviour is healthy, so on that point I'm going to let this topic run its course. That said, some things said were outright inflammatory and don't belong in a civil conversation.
As such, I've taken two actions:
1) I've removed those comments as best I could without upsetting the context of the discussions, and banned Bulrok from the forums for a couple of weeks for instigating them.
2) I'm splitting this into its own topic because let's keep the love thread for love, come on guys.
As such, I've taken two actions:
1) I've removed those comments as best I could without upsetting the context of the discussions, and banned Bulrok from the forums for a couple of weeks for instigating them.
2) I'm splitting this into its own topic because let's keep the love thread for love, come on guys.
Razmael
6