Best Of

I think there is a distinct and fundamental difference: one group is alive and the other is not. The way the undead are made and have been portrayed in how the game describes them is as no longer living. They're former organic creatures that have chosen to sunder their spark and corrupt their bodies heavily towards shadow to become undead/undying/whatever you want to call it. While they walk, talk, unicorn, and feel like living beings, they are most definitely not "alive" unless the lore has changed again. What's more is that it has been gradually revealed over the years that more shadow = hella bad for anything and everything regardless of whether you're involved or not.

So for many Spirit-side organizations indifference and or cohabitation with 'not quite alive or dead things' is largely not an option. If anything, the crusade against Undeath is a mass-destruction of reanimated radioactive, dangerous things whereas Bamathis's slaughtering is a genocide of actual living people.

Y'know, I said I wasn't going to get involved in forum drama, said I'd stay out of this... I chimed in on Discord but I figured I'd let forum drama be forum drama... the lies we tell ourselves right?

I had stuff about the fascistic imagery discussion but honestly? That's not going to be helpful here - all I ask is that please be adults about all this. The imagery is there, it's been demonstrated, and nobody is calling you a fascist for not seeing it or even thinking it's no big deal, just respect the perspective of others and don't be a dick.

Now, for the meat of my post which I hope to be more productive:

One of the issues here is how little information there actually is about the Albedi Gods and their worshippers, at least that's my perspective as a relatively new player. Going just by events posts Bamathis looks like a genocidal prick. Talking to players IC does glean more information but I'll be honest - I wouldn't have even gone that far without specific guild reqs prompting me to do that digging. The trouble is I only have PCs that I can depend upon to give some information on it, who would all either have been taking part in the massacres directly or been trying to convert people to spare them. But point is - you don't have a victim's perspective at all. We only have the side of the attackers, only half the story. Furthermore, even if there are NPCs that are 'survivors' floating around, it basically depends on being around at the same time as a volunteer who is willing and able to RP things out and has enough knowledge of the events to RP everything out believably.

This creates a problem because it leaves players to fill in the blanks, and people tend to fill in the blanks with the worst assumptions. We have no reason to believe the nameless masses slaughtered are anything but innocent victims of a monster. So, here is what I think - give us some talkative NPC refugees who can give information, even make news posts to let us know who and where they are. Now, when writing these NPCs make it clear that their old way of living was not desirable for them, but you can add in some nuance. Right now, the question you're asking players to answer is "Is it right to genocide a foreign culture because it appears threatening to our own?" which is... a problematic question because there is only one socially acceptable answer. Here's a question that's topical, has staying power, and leaves a hell of a lot of room for nuance without drawing parallels to one of the worst regimes in history:

"Is military force an effective tool for improving the lives of those in oppressive regimes?" - this can be done by making the Albedi Orders seem... rabid, puritanical, you can draw some inspiration from RL cults and rigid religious authorities (avoid ISIS, those wounds are too fresh even if it did come to mind while I was thinking on this). Make the contrast, but do not shy away from the costs of Bamathis's methods. So you're shifting the parallels from fascism and Naziism which is squicky and hard to do without pissing off a lot of players and shifting it to interventionism and wars of liberation. It's still hard to do right, and still has room for oversimplification and offense, and many players do have strong feelings about these things, but hopefully won't draw the same strong reactions. I dunno what storyboard and framework exists but maybe there is room in there for this kind of shift? Note, I don't know what question this storyline is trying to ask the playerbase, but if it's the first one then the parallels to Nazis or similar regimes are unavoidable for the faction doing the genociding and will piss off people if it's the faction players are expected to support.

The other major issue and probably the bigger one is the fear that opposing Bamathis means org deletion. So I think a big thing to help ease up on the drama comes down to answering one simple question:

"If orgs actively and directly oppose Bamathis using all means at their disposal, do they risk destruction at the hands of the admins/Gods?"

I'm very specific at that last one because if it's players doing it to other players that's just RP running its course. I'd hate to be on the losing side (and let's be honest - with my character's moral compass and how he seems to be in the minority regarding his principles he almost certainly would be), but it's more fun to have to deal with players who you can convince/talk at/fight against than it is to go "well, that God is pissed aaaaand you're dead". Even better if no destruction is risked at all as it makes whatever question you're trying to ask the playerbase one that we're allowed to answer ourselves but ultimately there are a lot of ways to make things fun without having to make people who feel like Bamathis may be fascist feel like they have to side with or compromise with him.

Alright, I'm done, going to bed, and bracing for impact.

This really deserves repeating as I have witnessed several divine volunteers across both Achaea and Aetolia bearing the brunt of criticisms. I see these issues/dissent bubbling over time, sometimes weeks up to months, and eventually explodes to a point where it is no longer enjoyable for the volunteer to progress the story.

It is also my understanding that volunteers put a lot of time and effort studying up on their selected divine and storyboarding for events. It's easy to become attached and it's easy to feel that you've somehow failed in actualizing your plans. So I wanted to put in my third party two cents that Bamathis' volunteer did a phenomenal job building up not only his role but the people around him (even people not in his order). Having played IREs for many years, I'd put Bamathis' volunteer quality up there with current Sartan (Achaea) and 2016's+ Aurora (Achaea). I would hope that these valid themes (as dark and painful as they are) would not sully the work the volunteer accomplished. Definetly amazing work.

I think going forward it is important for IRE to be more transparent and quicker in addressing complaints. This thread honestly makes me feel better, but I think it was done too late.