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Just going to throw this out there, because I can't believe this has devolved into what it has. This is also keeping in mind that I am divorced from the entire issue beyond second/third hand accounts so I am not really speaking to that specifically.

Killing guild members. HELP PK. If you can't ISSUE it, I'm also not impressed. Fights will happen, and a different punishment can be used for a single moment of conflict.

This is kind of a silly take. Help PK is an outline bestowed upon us by the Administration. A bare minimum guideline for conduct. Much like how the Federal Government in the U.S.A. may outline a standard, and the states can expand upon that standard as long as they don't directly go against it, the Guilds of Sapience are capable of expanding on what is considered unacceptable PK conduct within the Guild.

Frankly, most of the rules fit this interpretation, and the Guild Leadership during that period of time use it as they will.

Just.. don't use the administration's guidelines as more than just basic MUD decency (that can be punishable) and pull a "This Guild won't allow me to kill whoever I want within it, but I'm not breaking the Help PK Guidelines so their laws/rules regarding this are oppressive and dumb."

Forgive me if I am misinterpreting your text, but that is the kind of dismissive take I got from this, and this entire thread is about how Guild Laws and the Guild's general code of conduct can affect punishments and decision making regarding said punishments.

Edit: Made it less directly confrontational with a word change. Silly me.

You're assuming a lot @Ensis.
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I cannot speak for the others but that's what I disagree with. There are many reasons and situations that call for outguilding. Treason (Selling guild secrets, stealing from the guild, killing guild members [especially leadership], actively going against guild goals and ideals, etc.) tends to be the common reason that outguildings occur. Although not as often cited and usually open to a wide berth of interpretation and thus typically more open to disputes, organizational health is another valid reason for outguilding someone. The list can go on really.

Treason. You gave examples. I can argue the examples.

• Selling guild secrets. Unless it's regarding an event happening right now, or OrgReq/divine/future stuff, I'm not impressed. If it is, admin will probably act before the guild will. Granted, you can probably cover the most egregious violations under...
• Stealing from the guild. Internal theft is an acceptable reason. I actually should have made an exception for it. I would temper this with what's actually being stolen, but in cases where it's a guild problem you're probably clear to do it. External theft, one of your members stealing other people's stuff, will probably get handled before the guild gets to touch it. I can't tell who allows or encourages it anymore.
• Killing guild members. HELP PK. If you can't ISSUE it, I'm also not impressed. Fights will happen, and a different punishment can be used for a single moment of conflict.
• Actively going against guild goals and ideals. This is dependent on the guild, and I'd rather discuss individual issues then make a blanket statement. There's few actions a player can take that so violate 'ideals' enough to actively harm the rest of the guild. What Elene is joking about is w/e to me. Pregnant vampires and undead are worse. Letting your ents get killed/harvested for... w/e, is much worse. Even if you let these deviants go from the guild, and get someone from the city to kick them too, they retain class and continue debasing precious lore for as long as they're interested in pursuing the character. I'd rather have the deviants in house so they can be more easily monitored and possibly guided away from being deviant. If the fan starts to stink even after, you'll probably see the person quit far before you ask them to leave.

Treason, as applied, is vague to me. I don't like making the exception for it alone. I'm going to instead provide a few more items that don't invite vagueness and abuse: vandalism (property, HELP scrolls, and clans); actively helping an enemy raid against the guild, its city, or its allies declared in a treaty; actively reporting GT, GWHO, or guild/clan news posts to outside individuals (alt abuse in general); and other stuff that'll probably end up as an ISSUE to get cleaned up. Which was my stipulation anyway.

If you're also upset with the idea that a permanent ban is wrong Haven, I can't argue a feeling at length. Forgiveness should be possible, because shrubbing and lack of interest should be the only reasons not to play the game. Karhast has it.

Organizational health was mentioned. Are you referring the prior points as damaging overall the harmony of the org, or that this is some separate crime? As the former, I don't get it. As the later, this sounds like, 'People don't agree with ME and don't PK with ME and won't do quests and instances with ME and won't vote for ME and won't donate to ME so I'm going to kick everyone that threatens my milestones and shops and whatever else I think is important including the org I currently control.'

I am probably assuming a lot. What in particular am I assuming that's so wrong to you?

Not everyone plays Aetolia the same way or for the same reasons. Not everyone even roleplays or respects the roleplay of others. You seem to be operating under the assumption that you're entitled to certain experiences and being apart of a guild. In the past, you were entitled to GR3 in order to obtain class but with the addition of multiclass, focal shift to cities, and the expansion of apprenticeship, I believe it's safe to say that guild's being any kind of right is no longer a thing. Actions have consequences and like a friend of mine once said: "You're allowed to be salty that your RP didn't pan out. This, however, does not mean that there's something wrong with the system."

Some players forget that there's a political aspect present in the game. It's in the roles we choose to portray, the groups we associate with, the leaders we elect and very much how we present ourselves to the in-game community. Can egos and despotism rear its ugly head sometimes? Can harsh punishments be doled out? Can things be unfair? Sure but I'd argue that's a byproduct and reflection of a dynamic and living role-play world. You might not respect it or even be readily aware of it but it's still there and that's the reality of the game.

Unless we're looking to change the framework of the game from a dynamic exploration of conflict in a 'dark setting' to simply become a chatroom that has occasional competitive elements via PK and contests... I'm not for removing one of the few teeth an organization has to manage its members roleplay. If there's a serious conduct problem, you can always use the ISSUE command to notify the admin and have them come take a look at the situation.

Killing guild members. HELP PK. If you can't ISSUE it, I'm also not impressed. Fights will happen, and a different punishment can be used for a single moment of conflict.

This is so hilariously inconsistent with how every guild in the entire game works that I'm honestly not sure that you're logging into the same one as everyone else. I'd say, like, in 70% of guilds across the board, PKing ANY guild members is an instant boot (context pending). Trying to PK people who are guild leadership is gonna push into the "barely anybody will tolerate that level of insubordination."

Your weird fixation on whether or not a PK is issuable completely misses both what issues are for and what guilds are in their entirety.

ISSUE pretty much only exists as an OOC means to either resolve disputes or fix random other problems that require admin intervention (a good non-PK/harassment example was one time I bought something from someone with credits and they mailed it, and the mail for some reason took FOREVER to get delivered, and I almost issued for a resolution when suddenly the damn dove showed up). Issues are NOT the be all, end all of IC character conflict, and HELP PK has practically no bearing on player run organizations when it comes to laws.

Guilds are exclusively In-Character institutions, so HELP PK and ISSUES are woefully inadequate standards and comically flimsy guides for Guild Laws/outguilding standards. If a PK has gotten into Issue Territory, it's already way, way, way beyond anything player-run organizations were designed to handle.