A request for a Lore Bank

TeaniTeani Evening SkySwedenMember Posts: 2,060 ✭✭✭✭✭
At times it can be very difficult to get a hold of information, since it might be hidden away in a book (lost in a sea of many many other volumes on a shelf), hidden behind a locked door or deep in the stacks of news posts, help files, etc. At times, players are not very forthcoming with information either, and news posts have a tendency to be a bit vague when it comes to facts, focused as they are on the awesomeness of the events that brought things to light.

Lack of transparency when it comes to existing lore is hindering players from finding new angles and improving dynamics within the game. Instead of worrying about who knows what, and guarding secrets or being obscure when providing answers, wouldn't it be better if certain things that are meant to be universally known or at the very least should be accessible knowledge is readily available and put in some kind of knowledge or lore bank?

Now, I know Imvra exists, but I am fairly certain that said person could be put to use assembling this kind of bank, in order to help make the game a bit easier to maneuver. It might even be a good idea if requests for lore could be made, sort of like the idea/bug/typo systems are, I don't know. That was just a thought that crossed my mind right this moment.

LORE REQUEST FIRE would set up a simple request to add a file on that specific key word
LORE EDIT FIRE could perhaps be available to a select few, who can suggest changes to an existing lore post, that simply needs to be checked off by Imvra/Admin.

One could, for instance, type LORE and it would give a short blurb about it, and then list certain scrolls or people of interest to speak to for further information.

For example, LORE FIRE could look something like this (and please, I just spewed things out for this at random):
Fire is one of the natural elements, and is connected to the elemental Plane of Fire, also called XXX. Fire is known to be a consuming force . There are a few guilds who are connected to this element through use of their skills, some in more basic ways, and others more elaborately. The Ascendril, for example, use the elemental energies . The Divine aspect of Fire is known as Mebrene, and has been known to guide mortals through various vessels, such as Lord Rahn, Lady Auresae, . For more information, read event news #, #, #, or find out more from those mentioned above.



MjollSaltzIazamatVyxsisTekiasNavaIantheMacavityZailaEliadonLexen
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Comments

  • VyxsisVyxsis VyxsisMember Posts: 477 ✭✭✭✭
    honestly, this is a great and really needed idea. sure, i understand not everything can be player-facing, but it needs to be documented and accessible by more than one person. people come and go - do we want everything to be lost because of a sudden departure? i think that'd be a shame.
    Indoran'i is back baby. It's good again. Awoouu (wolf Howl)
    An Atzob cultist says, "Is a shamatato as tasty as a potato?"
    (Tells): From afar, Mephistoles hisses harshly to you, "Hey baby, show me your ovipositor?"
    The mighty Jy'Barrak Golgotha opens his maw, catches the glowing spear in his many jagged teeth, and chomps down. The Divine spear breaks with a noise like thunder, shards toppling from the Emperor's jaws. "OM NOM NOM!" He declares, then spits the last of the ruined weapon from his lips.




    IazamatTeaniNavaIanthe
  • XeniaXenia Member Posts: 1,073 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would read the Sciomancer's compendium on all things if it existed.

  • KerocKeroc A small cupboardMember, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 431 admin
    edited May 20
    http://wiki.aetolia.com

    Anyone can edit it! Just log in with your character and password.

  • XeniaXenia Member Posts: 1,073 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm wondering if one of the reason to point players towards editing the wiki is for a plan to scrape the Aetolian wiki to serve as the lore source IG. Is that the plan?

  • EliadonEliadon Somewhere Over the RainbowMember Posts: 173 ✭✭✭
    edited May 27
    @Imvra any chance you have an official stance on this? I'm pretty sure players would be open to helping contribute, but honestly we don't even know if half of what we have is canon or not.

    Modicums of Spirit/Shadow/Fire/etc are a good example. Differing opinions on 'yeah Syssin use Shadow because they manipulate shadows because shadows are Shadow' vs. 'no you're dumb real physics matter here' that have genuinely impacted guilds, etc.

    edit: Unless Keroc's link to the Wiki was an official stance, in which case... meh, several reasons have already been stated above for why we don't think that's a great plan.
    Post edited by Eliadon on
    TeaniVyxsis
  • TiurTiur Producer Member, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 674 admin
    Hm!

    We do have LOOKUP/Dictionary, and players are always able to msg Becue with ideas to update that.

    We also have the HELP 17 section that can be updated using HELPEDIT.

    I suppose we could look at making something like helpedit for the dictionary?
  • TeaniTeani Evening Sky SwedenMember Posts: 2,060 ✭✭✭✭✭
    HELP 17 currently only contains information about races. That was not what I had in mind when it came to this Lore Bank suggestion. What I was aiming for was much more extensive, involving a lot of other aspects, such as knowledge about the Planes, the elements, lore connected to certain skills/abilities/skillsets (where was this taught, how and when, in connection to whom), NPCs of note, and more.

    I also still think it has to be something that is checked by Admin, rather than giving everyone a chance to edit things that could have a lot of impact on how things are played out. Currently, the information is spread out, with small, often vague references here and there, but nothing substantial.

    Take for example HELP GEOGRAPHY, which lists all places in Sapience. Some of those help files have one or two sentences added to them, with just a general description of their location and possibly a vague note of something else, or they are out of date. What they could have is a notation on when the last event took place there, with information on which event post it connects to, or what NPC was involved, and what impact it had on the region, just to add some background that people don't necessarily have to chase down in multiple posts/help files or attempts to ask people who are reluctant to provide information.
    20.11.119 Scidve

    20.11.118 < Village of Saluria Scidve Cove > 20.11.120

    Nestled to the southwest of the Tree of Life, in the Vashnars, the Valley of
    Scidve is an area that once contained a small village of Xorani which traded
    peacefully with the city of Thera. Historians of Thera claimed that one day
    traders with the valley no longer felt safe on the journeys and that a foul
    curse had fallen over the valley. The creatures that once inhabited the
    forests became dark and sinister, and the villagers slowly were transformed.

    The historians are also quick to point out that the valley was protected by a
    number of woodland folk, including a festive satyr and the daughter of Slyphe,
    the Goddess of the Seas. Since little has been heard from either in recent
    years, it is uncertain if they still inhabit the valley.
    What of the Orrery, which was set up there quite some time ago? What of the cultists? Updates would be good, and I am well aware this is a massive undertaking, but it would help make everything make more sense in general.

    Another example is to edit/update and make use of HELP FAMOUS MOBILES, or incorporate this into the mentioned Lore Bank. That help file used to be a very interesting place to go to in order to pull out names to work with when it came to research.

    Just some ideas that I think would help.



  • TiurTiur Producer Member, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 674 admin
    It's a huge task that we don't have a lot of time for. Sometimes we do stealth update.

    I'm still not sure why HELPEDIT isn't exactly what you're looking for? You submit a request for a new file or edit to existing, Imvra/me reviews, bam, the information is there. Things need updating, go for it!
    Rhyot
  • TeaniTeani Evening Sky SwedenMember Posts: 2,060 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well, perhaps instead of me doing multiple requests for a lot of things, consider this a huge request of updating said HELP section with more than just race information? I have been told a few times that Admin consider certain things as obvious or very clear, while its been far from the case for myself and others. 

    As has been mentioned, lore connected to the elements is something quite important and, to many, confusing or at least unclear. Lore-based information connected to skills would be good as well. Locations connected to important events and ant impact on the world that was brought on by this. Help make this more easily accessible, please?



    VyxsisIazamat
  • TeaniTeani Evening Sky SwedenMember Posts: 2,060 ✭✭✭✭✭
    And I am aware it is a huge task, but you have a role connected specifically to Lore. Put them on slowly setting it up, fix a similar system as mortal builders, with people dedicatedto finding lore and updating files. It will likely put less strain on answering questions with time, as more and more is brought into this new system, freeing up said person to more in-depth questions. It has been almost a month and a half since I requested a meeting with Imvra, without a response. 

    Also, stealth-updating won't help people find the information.



    VyxsisXeniaIazamat
  • ImvraImvra Member, Moderator, Immortal Posts: 97 Immortal
    Hello everyone!

    Indeed, the Dictionary is the best place for a lot of this information, so that we can keep things consolidated rather than further fracturing out different systems and syntaxes.

    The team is always open to plug things in if you find things and can provide it. HELPEDIT was created by player request, so that you can take the reigns a bit more and help fill gaps or correct oversight and help volunteers keep doing the building they're volunteering to do. These repositories are a collective effort, and while I can fill in gaps and supply things (when I have time), I do have a full plate of work and responsibilities as-is. Whittling away at this is a goal, but it is always a conflict of priorities and projects.

    We cannot make newsposts for absolutely everything that gets updated, although I can begin keeping a list and provide changelogs when there is a suitable grouping of them.

    It is always, always appreciated if you, the community, can lend a hand! Some day I will become an octopus, but until then, I must make due with my two hands in my available time!
  • VyxsisVyxsis VyxsisMember Posts: 477 ✭✭✭✭
    Imvra said:

    Some day I will become an octopus

    confirmed, imvra aspires to cthulu-hood
    Indoran'i is back baby. It's good again. Awoouu (wolf Howl)
    An Atzob cultist says, "Is a shamatato as tasty as a potato?"
    (Tells): From afar, Mephistoles hisses harshly to you, "Hey baby, show me your ovipositor?"
    The mighty Jy'Barrak Golgotha opens his maw, catches the glowing spear in his many jagged teeth, and chomps down. The Divine spear breaks with a noise like thunder, shards toppling from the Emperor's jaws. "OM NOM NOM!" He declares, then spits the last of the ruined weapon from his lips.




    Oonagh
  • TeaniTeani Evening Sky SwedenMember Posts: 2,060 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Imvra said:

    Hello everyone!

    Indeed, the Dictionary is the best place for a lot of this information, so that we can keep things consolidated rather than further fracturing out different systems and syntaxes.

    Then I suggest some generic additions to the dictionary to help people figure out some of the game specific terms that can sometimes be confusing (specific design templates, for example).

    The team is always open to plug things in if you find things and can provide it. HELPEDIT was created by player request, so that you can take the reigns a bit more and help fill gaps or correct oversight and help volunteers keep doing the building they're volunteering to do. These repositories are a collective effort, and while I can fill in gaps and supply things (when I have time), I do have a full plate of work and responsibilities as-is. Whittling away at this is a goal, but it is always a conflict of priorities and projects.
    The Help system is a maze when it comes to information, making it difficult to find things even with the use of HELPSEARCH . Perhaps setting it up with different systems is a good way to organize things.

    To be honest, this is also a form of building, only it is not directed towards new content, but game quality. I would be happier to see this being built on than seeing another new area popping up that might end up having problems with how it connects to existing lore further down the road.

    We cannot make newsposts for absolutely everything that gets updated, although I can begin keeping a list and provide changelogs when there is a suitable grouping of them.
    This would be very good!


    It is always, always appreciated if you, the community, can lend a hand! Some day I will become an octopus, but until then, I must make due with my two hands in my available time!
    Request help, then, much like is done by Mortal builders. Set up a "Lore board", where you can post requests and people who are interested in helping can go search for information in what documents exist, and present a help file for some specific topic. I don't know. I'm just trying to come up with different ideas because I feel something needs to be done.



    Sarita
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight SchoolMember Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I get what a lot of you are saying but the players don't need to have all the right answers all the time. Recording history in game should be the responsibility of the players as how they interpret the unfolding events around them. If there's going to be a 100% reliable cache of lore then the wiki is a good option. Any wiki problem could be solved with an admin sanctioned "Stamp of Approval" on a page they feel is accurate and can lock edits on. And considering most wikis have edit historys, rolling back any debauchery should be simple enough. Otherwise, if we're really that passionate about this info, why shouldn't those that are interested take up the project of maintaining the wiki?

    I personally don't believe that there needs to be a source available in-game or out beyond what we already have. The unreliable narrator is a compelling and realistic (and what the game's already established) standard on delivering information in any story. It allows for player creativity and flexibility. Mistakes and growth (or the lack thereof with proper record keeping) lends towards player agency. Options, even those that can be lost to time or debauchery, is a good thing because it allows things to rise and fall in a cycle which fit many themes within the game. It's a good measurement on how responsible (or nefarious or otherwise) the leadership of the various organizations of those times were for the new generation to overcome or repeat.

    If there is anything that the admin should be responsible for in this respect, it's that they should be consistent and clear with the information they release. They should also allow for a chance for players to relearn/discover forgotten truths. One way this can be done is by leaving clues throughout the world for players to find. I think the admin already do this to some degree. Perhaps there could be improvements but I don't play enough to really say. I could very well be wrong.

    Ultimately though, if players think something is important, the players should take it upon themselves to write it down. Can't just pass the buck to Admin every time. That would only be a disservice to our own roles as players. In D&D as a DM, if I drop lore that could be important and the players don't write it down, that's on them. Now, that doesn't mean it's lost forever, but the players will have to deal with the consequences and they'll have to research/rediscover said information in a mini-quest or call in a favor from an NPC. The same principle can be applied here. While it does mean that the players may have to rely on admin for these tidbits, if designed properly and the game  world has enough info lying around to piece together, it should not happen enough that it'd significantly impact admin resources. That's my take on this.
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
    XeniaFezzixOonagh
  • CorlinCorlin Member Posts: 109 ✭✭✭
    As usual, Haven is right.

    The wiki is the answer, with the addition of some form of stamp and edit lock once a page is at pinnacle. Maybe add in a system that flags pages that're getting repeatedly edited for someone to go over and look and see if there's a 'lol editz' war going on so they can roll it back and lock the edits or something?
    Haven
  • TeaniTeani Evening Sky SwedenMember Posts: 2,060 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm glad you like the wiki, @Haven, but I'd prefer something in the game as I have stated before.  I'm also happy you have found some clues in the world, but not all are as lucky. 

    Being told to read news posts when asking for lore to rebuild a guild that lacks proper records (some are not as good with sharing as others), in order to stay consistent with what might have happened before, is decidedly not the right way to go. This is especially true since most news posts focus on storytelling rather than facts and consequences.

    If you as a DM drop lore and players don't pick it up, you can't expect the next set of players on that adventure to know said pieces of lore, right? If an org leader asks for information, you should cooperate with themas best as you can to ensure they can help build and improve the game experience for others. It can be enough of a chore to revitalize a guild, so that research should be made a little easier. If nothing else, it would add to consistency. 



    Iazamat
  • RhyotRhyot BloodlochMember Posts: 360 ✭✭✭✭
    @Teani why not volunteer to be a celani to help update all of the help files. The help files is where i get a lot of information from.

    Alternatively, isnt that what the Grand Library (or any library for that matter) is for: a place for collective information that people can add to??


    Haven
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight SchoolMember Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't believe we're going to see eye to eye on this and that's okay. I wish you all the best.
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
  • TeaniTeani Evening Sky SwedenMember Posts: 2,060 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Rhyot said:
    @Teani why not volunteer to be a celani to help update all of the help files. The help files is where i get a lot of information from.

    Alternatively, isnt that what the Grand Library (or any library for that matter) is for: a place for collective information that people can add to??
    What make you think I haven't already volunteered to help?

    Also, the Grand Aetolian library would an excellent thing to use for this, so long as all items put in there are Admin approved. It's that approval, or stamp of authenticity that is needed to ensure there is some form of continuity when it comes to lore. 



  • RhyotRhyot BloodlochMember Posts: 360 ✭✭✭✭
    I dont know who all volunteers to be a Celani or volunteers to help. I know a few, but I dont actively pursue that information.

    That said, why not take a look at this from a different perspective. 

    In the real world, we have (had) enclopedias that come out every few years after current events, influential people, and various other items were verified by a much much larger group of people (so much larger than our Aetolian Pools). 

    Then there is Wikipedia which can be used for accurate information and easily verified by few individuals. These individuals arent really experts on the matter, but they look at it and say "This looks right." Wikipedia is used as a quick grab of information that is mostly accurate.

    In Aetolia, we use the wikipedia version of information. Our admin team is so heavily engrossed in making more content and fixing/breaking things that they truly dont have the manpower to put one person on Lore Duty (encyclopedias) full time. So Why not work with other people, your local SMEs (Subject Matter Experts) to determine what information is accurate and should be made. You are the wikipedia editors. Plus its a good way to promote player interaction. 


    Haven
  • ImvraImvra Member, Moderator, Immortal Posts: 97 Immortal
    We can discuss it as a team, however there are concerns about allocating time and resources to an additional system of submission and review (which is what it would have to be), when the existing one created at player request is underutilized.
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight SchoolMember Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Security for liberty I guess.
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
  • ImvraImvra Member, Moderator, Immortal Posts: 97 Immortal
    Oh! I was not implying an issue of security or liberty. The Wiki is openly available! But Administrative attention is needed if you want things Certified(TM).

    Our time, especially as volunteers, is limited. That time-currency is limited and needs to be budgeted and allocated to the best of our ability. With my projects alone, I do not have the time to 100% dedicate solely to updating help files and writing books.

    We've introduced the HELPEDIT system at player request, and there have only been 13 submissions (including our own tests). Becue has repeatedly offered to update the Dictionary with new references and sections, if people are inclined to message her the details they think should be included. Other than correcting crafting references, few have taken her up on that. Will a new system be used, or become another database of good intention that ends up neglected?
    Haven
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight SchoolMember Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭✭✭
    My comment wasn't directed at you, sorry. I'm in agreement that a system like this is largely unnecessary and would more than likely end up underutilized despite the good intentions...

    That said - if the community is truly passionate about this, this is a wonderful opportunity to take initiative in-game. Utilize the systems already in place and collaborate IG. If the project can hold long term then perhaps the administration can reconsider and legitimize what the players have built.

    Anyone remember Duiran's transformation from snuggly to savagery? Spinesreach's transformation into a 'Republic'? The Syssin Syndicate? The same principle applies here I think and I'd honestly rather the agency and upkeep remain in player hands for this type of thing.
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
  • EmirEmir Member Posts: 385 ✭✭✭✭
    @Haven yo can you go tell Duiran about that snuggly to savage transition?
    (Web): Toz says, "Emir's Express Evacuation and Existence Eradicator, Every Experience is Explosive - Experience the Entirety of your Existence!"
    Haven
  • XeniaXenia Member Posts: 1,073 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 5
    Don't worry guys, Seirathi History Tours has it covered.

    Edit: For real, I don't care if there's an official lore decreed thing. Why not just update the files ourselves and then if something's wrong and we're told it's wrong, let it be corrected in the document?

    EmirHaven
  • EliadonEliadon Somewhere Over the RainbowMember Posts: 173 ✭✭✭
    edited June 5
    Because we're never told it's wrong <_<

    Edit: never consistently told when something is wrong*
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