Zealot

edited February 2021 in Sparring Grounds
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XeniaRhyotEmirIazamatOonagh
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Comments

  • edited June 2019
    Disable:

    You can't disable suggest because yes, it is /vital/ to their offense. Kai Cripple and Madness are gated by cooldowns or Kai and are meant to be used opportunistically rather than spammed, hence the gates, hence why you can disable them.

    Edited to add: Pro-tip, you can disable parry.

    Rebuke:

    First off want to say that you're wrong about sacrificing offense vs. defense. A lot of other classes have to choose between offense and defense. Prae go 2h and lose audit, Templar choose offense vs. defensive auras, etc.

    Secondly, fend is literally parry. Stun from golem bypasses parry too. Stun from everything bypasses parry. Rebuke is a double parry usable every 8s. You have a defensive /advantage/ here, not a disadvantage.

    Pendulum:

    Pretty sure you're using that wrong if you're shifting limb damage into a limb they are curing? Which is what I think you're saying?

    Psi Tether:

    Psi Tether is still usable for it's intended purposes. The 4s uncon was absurd and very broken in team combat. 4s uncon is absurd and very broken in 1v1. All of this on demand, too.

    There's more but this is all I care to elaborate on at the moment.

    I just want to end with: The majority of Aetolia top tier believe Zealot is already ridiculously overpowered fine. Buffs are going to be fought tooth and nail. We already lose our collective minds when @Keroc introduces unasked for buffs.
    (Web): Toz says, "Emir's Express Evacuation and Existence Eradicator, Every Experience is Explosive - Experience the Entirety of your Existence!"
    IazamatRhyotOonagh
  • Wow I actually didn't read the last part of your post. Holy flame bait batman.
    (Web): Toz says, "Emir's Express Evacuation and Existence Eradicator, Every Experience is Explosive - Experience the Entirety of your Existence!"
  • edited June 2019
    Zynti said:


    Conclusion: I doubt all of these can be implemented but throwing out a few of the problems and solutions above so we can come to a better build for Zealot. As an authority on the subject I wanted to give me two cents, I think opinions from people that actually use the class are most valuable - because of the firsthand experience. Not to count out people that want to see the class nerfed etc, but as a new class I suggest the peanut gallery reserve comments and vehement opinions until they know what they're talking about. Thanks.

    We fought for a couple minutes in Purgatory last night. I literally kept hitting parry (fend) the entire fight due to lacking the trigger line (I'd not fought a Zealot yet), meaning I was doing literally nothing to you. Regardless, you kept using Psi Tether to reset the fight? And you were otherwise making absolutely zero progress against me. I don't think your perceived issues with Zealot are a failing of the class, to be completely honest.

    Edit: And I feel it's pertinent to point out that I do not currently have a Zealot cureset.
  • Emir said:

    Disable:

    You can't disable suggest because yes, it is /vital/ to their offense. Kai Cripple and Madness are gated by cooldowns or Kai and are meant to be used opportunistically rather than spammed, hence the gates, hence why you can disable them.

    Edited to add: Pro-tip, you can disable parry.

    Rebuke:

    First off want to say that you're wrong about sacrificing offense vs. defense. A lot of other classes have to choose between offense and defense. Prae go 2h and lose audit, Templar choose offense vs. defensive auras, etc.

    Secondly, fend is literally parry. Stun from golem bypasses parry too. Stun from everything bypasses parry. Rebuke is a double parry usable every 8s. You have a defensive /advantage/ here, not a disadvantage.

    Pendulum:

    Pretty sure you're using that wrong if you're shifting limb damage into a limb they are curing? Which is what I think you're saying?

    Psi Tether:

    Psi Tether is still usable for it's intended purposes. The 4s uncon was absurd and very broken in team combat. 4s uncon is absurd and very broken in 1v1. All of this on demand, too.

    There's more but this is all I care to elaborate on at the moment.

    I just want to end with: The majority of Aetolia top tier believe Zealot is already ridiculously overpowered. Buffs are going to be fought tooth and nail. We already lose our collective minds when @Keroc introduces unasked for buffs.

    Emir, you made some good points. Comments below:

    Disable:

    You cannot disable afflictions from hypnosis either, for example disabling indifference, etc.

    Disabling parry doesn't matter. Wrath gets around parry.

    Rebuke: Rebuke is not usable in it's current form. Afflicting soothing affs = no rebuke.

    Pendulum: All damage shifts. So pendulum is not usable with 3 or more broken limbs. Because whatever you're restoring will still cure. Many times, even w/ two broken limbs, you're going to "accidentally" cure whatever damage was shifted to that limb anyway. So it's not worth the 3 second investment

    Psi Tether: Psi Tether is more annoying then advantageous for zealot. I think classes are judged more 1v1 then group? Otherwise judges classes based off their group effectiveness is most likely impossible to balance?
    1v1 Tether no problem. Just annoying for whoever you're fighting, but it doesn't stop your resto.

    Lastly, if top tier believes its OP, where's the army of Zealots? And who has shown it being OP through wins? Not OP through losses. ;)
  • Disable: Disabling parry matters.

    Rebuke: Then don't just spam rebuke, rebuke when you're not using soothing affs, or rebuke reflexively in niche scenarios where you can't 100% know where someone is going to hit you, and you say to yourself, man double parry would be super nice right now. Or, be just like everyone else and deal with limb classes with only 1 parry.

    Pendulum: If you're shifting at 3 breaks then yes, that is not worth the investment. That is something you need to take up with your offensive strategy.

    Top tier resides in Shadow.
    (Web): Toz says, "Emir's Express Evacuation and Existence Eradicator, Every Experience is Explosive - Experience the Entirety of your Existence!"
  • Zealot is a very strong class. I would go so far as to say it is top 3. Nobody plays it because it is Just Another Monk, which is boring... to me, anyways. It doesn't really figure into a Spirit strategy in teams at this time. Keroc has said that it is moreso a class for Sect Heroes/duelists (of which primarily reside on the opposite tether)... culturally, Spirit just cares less about sect and 1v1.

    If you thought Tether's on demand uncon was fair, I don't know what to say. It was mathematically too powerful.

    A class can still be considered overpowered or just plain amazing while nobody wins with it in sect or plays it. See: Sentinel. See, until recently: Archivist, Teradrim. To insist Zealot isn't OP just because of your KDR is like insisting a five star restaurant isn't a good establishment because a line cook or two burnt some steaks...
    EmirOonaghStineBenedictoRhyotFezzixIazamatIllikaal
  • edited June 2019
    Iesid said:

    Zealot is a very strong class. I would go so far as to say it is top 3. Nobody plays it because it is Just Another Monk, which is boring... to me, anyways. It doesn't really figure into a Spirit strategy in teams at this time. Keroc has said that it is moreso a class for Sect Heroes/duelists (of which primarily reside on the opposite tether)... culturally, Spirit just cares less about sect and 1v1.

    If you thought Tether's on demand uncon was fair, I don't know what to say. It was mathematically too powerful.

    A class can still be considered overpowered or just plain amazing while nobody wins with it in sect or plays it. See: Sentinel. See, until recently: Archivist, Teradrim. To insist Zealot isn't OP just because of your KDR is like insisting a five star restaurant isn't a good establishment because a line cook or two burnt some steaks...

    Would you consider yourself a capable fighter?
    Drystin
  • Holy shit dude this is 2019 not 2005.
    (Web): Toz says, "Emir's Express Evacuation and Existence Eradicator, Every Experience is Explosive - Experience the Entirety of your Existence!"
    Jhin
  • Zynti said:
    Zealot is a very strong class. I would go so far as to say it is top 3. Nobody plays it because it is Just Another Monk, which is boring... to me, anyways. It doesn't really figure into a Spirit strategy in teams at this time. Keroc has said that it is moreso a class for Sect Heroes/duelists (of which primarily reside on the opposite tether)... culturally, Spirit just cares less about sect and 1v1.

    If you thought Tether's on demand uncon was fair, I don't know what to say. It was mathematically too powerful.

    A class can still be considered overpowered or just plain amazing while nobody wins with it in sect or plays it. See: Sentinel. See, until recently: Archivist, Teradrim. To insist Zealot isn't OP just because of your KDR is like insisting a five star restaurant isn't a good establishment because a line cook or two burnt some steaks...
    Would you consider yourself a capable fighter?
    Since we are going there: I would consider myself a capable fighter, yes. I say that based on conversation with you, as well as 15 years of experience across 3 Iron Realms. I would not hesitate to say that in one of those games, I was top ten for a very long time. I'm, at the very least, not an amateur and my presence is a portion of why Spirit is currently succeeding on a group scale - which is where most meaningful conflict occurs. Sect is not the only measurement of combat acumen.

    It doesn't take a Crown of Omens to see that Tether was overpowered. It also doesn't take one to see how powerful of a class Zealot is. 
    RhyotJhinGaladrielFezzixTeani
  • edited June 2019
    @Iesid Good. Show me what you got against Top Tier. With the OP Zealot class. I hope that you prove me wrong - I'll go as far as giving you an incentive if you can make it happen. Accept or decline the incentive doesn't matter to me. Just prove me wrong... because right now all I've heard is words, no real data. So are you stepping up or just talking?

    Furthermore! Don't get me wrong. I think the class is amazing. The admins have done a good job with conceptualizing and building the class - there's just very specific limitations when it comes to acheiving the kill route. Immolation. I can break every limb and if you can cure your torso and tank damage, you won't die. Even with unconciousness from level 3 head break takes time to get a kill. Especially due to Zenith pressure periodically ending. Perhaps adding the affliction Burnt_Skin after heatspear ablaze and infernal seal is stuck?
    IesidIazamatOonagh
  • edited June 2019
    EDIT: I realized that might be deemed inappropriate, im a polite frog.
  • before making a balance change suggestion on the forums perhaps you should try utilizing the class in the way it was meant to be used.
    1. Tether was not meant to be used offensively, its a tool to prevent people from doing like fezzix and running from you every time you break a limb. It's a way to prevent people from doing nothing but running. Nothing more nothing less. You were abusing it. I told you you were, you kept doing it anyways. I told you it'd get nerfed, it did, now you run to forums and complain.
    2. Every class has an active cure. Aka swagger, cleansing, panacea, etc. Rebuke is no different. You also have a parry skill, it's almost like double parry, though you have to sacrifice a round of offense to do so. Personally, i think it's overpowered as is.
    3. You need to go through your script and optimize it in key situations, and use it only in the right situations, your script is a hodgepodge of zealot attacks, which is why you find it difficult to finish someone off without doing something like abusing a 4 second unconscious.


    In short theres nothing wrong with the zealot skillset. You're using it wrong.

    Fezzix
  • The way you use Tether is stupid. That's all I got to say.
  • Nah the way he used tether was exactly how anyone who had Zealot would have used it, because it was that damn broken. 
    (Web): Toz says, "Emir's Express Evacuation and Existence Eradicator, Every Experience is Explosive - Experience the Entirety of your Existence!"
    IazamatFezzixOonagh
  • I use Zealot, I don't use tether? Why not.. hrm.. cause its a cheap move.
    EmirGaladriel
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight School

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  • Galadriel said:
    before making a balance change suggestion on the forums perhaps you should try utilizing the class in the way it was meant to be used. 1. Tether was not meant to be used offensively, its a tool to prevent people from doing like fezzix and running from you every time you break a limb. It's a way to prevent people from doing nothing but running. Nothing more nothing less. You were abusing it. I told you you were, you kept doing it anyways. I told you it'd get nerfed, it did, now you run to forums and complain. 2. Every class has an active cure. Aka swagger, cleansing, panacea, etc. Rebuke is no different. You also have a parry skill, it's almost like double parry, though you have to sacrifice a round of offense to do so. Personally, i think it's overpowered as is. 3. You need to go through your script and optimize it in key situations, and use it only in the right situations, your script is a hodgepodge of zealot attacks, which is why you find it difficult to finish someone off without doing something like abusing a 4 second unconscious. In short theres nothing wrong with the zealot skillset. You're using it wrong.
    1. Complain? No... sharing my point of view.  Unfortunately, you don't use the class so your opinion on how someone should or shouldn't use the class is null and void. Your suggestions can be made but stronger reinforced by personal experience.

    2. No comment

    3. You have more information but you seem to be ignoring it. I prefer not to engage in a discussion of reasoning with you, because you seem to intentionally ignore the facts. 

    From here on out - any wise guy that wants to judge the class and suggest how Zealot should or shouldn't be used. Just don't talk...show. I'm waiting to see it. Especially if you're refuting my comments above, walk the talk.

    It's an open challenge that no one is accepting. I find it odd for such an OP Top 3 Tier combat class everyone tends to be scared to prove me wrong.

    I'm waiting! Tic Tock!
    Iazamat
  • EliadonEliadon Somewhere Over the Rainbow
    It's not a matter of being scared to prove you wrong, it's a matter of time investment. Why would Shadow make a Spirit char to just beat you at Zealot? Why would Iesid spend $200 which he earned from using his time working to buy credits to pick Zealot up, when he enjoys Sentinel?

    You're making ad hominem arguments, rather than actually addressing their comments about the class. This thread is ultimately pointless beyond providing you with a means of showing the internet another example of the traditional G.I.F.Theory in motion.
    JustusIazamatIesidAlathesia
  • So just throwing this out there. A class cost more than 200 bucks.
  • Eliadon said:

    It's not a matter of being scared to prove you wrong, it's a matter of time investment. Why would Shadow make a Spirit char to just beat you at Zealot? Why would Iesid spend $200 which he earned from using his time working to buy credits to pick Zealot up, when he enjoys Sentinel?

    You're making ad hominem arguments, rather than actually addressing their comments about the class. This thread is ultimately pointless beyond providing you with a means of showing the internet another example of the traditional G.I.F.Theory in motion.

    Incorrect it's not ad hominem. Why? Because my comments aren't directed toward their skill. I don't doubt their not skilled combatants in their own right. I doubt their solutions and opinion of the class, i.e Top 3 Tier, OP Class is true.

    So no, this is not about your personal combat expertise. Furthermore what comments have I not addressed? I've only heard rebuttals to my theories. Do you have an example of comments I haven't addressed that don't include claims of Zealot being OP? If so, I'm all ears.
    Iazamat
  • I can't take any of this serious until there's an FFA class pick for zealot with hella prizes. I'll take bets.

    JhinHavenRhyotDrystin
  • edited June 2019
    Xenia said:

    I can't take any of this serious until there's an FFA class pick for zealot with hella prizes. I'll take bets.


    IazamatHavenZaila
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee
    :grimace:
  • Aishia said:

    :grimace:

    Is that Chrissy Tiegen face?


    MoxieIesidXeniaZailaTekiasRhyot
  • RijettaRijetta Nowhere Important
    gonna be a yikes from me dawg
    A low, sultry voice resounds within the depths of your mind, "I look forward to seeing your descent."
    IazamatMjollIesidOonaghXeniaEmirRhyotAlathesia
  • IllikaalIllikaal Pray Area
    edited June 2019
    Almost everything that was said about Zealot:
    "And finally, swear to Me: You will give your life to Dendara for you are Tiarna an-Kiar."
    IazamatIesidJhinDrystin
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