Warzone Aura


Over the course of this proxy war event there've been some shifts and changes to open PK zones in an attempt to maintain balance and allow a way for everyone to participate with enough breathing room to not be overwhelmed with PK. Currently the villages do not give aura but the areas outside do. As things continue I'm seeing more and more disputes over people being killed without aura and the lines are becoming increasingly blurred. I've been thinking on how this can be resolved because 'Follow these clear cut rules' doesn't really work. The rules, while defined, get lost as people gain negative experiences with one another and feel they have justifiable cause for stepping outside the PK-Aura. I'd love to see this reworked, below are two solutions I think could address the problem.

Villages give Aura, there is no safety anywhere within the warzones. Enter at your own risk.


Villages give aura but add the ability to become a 'pacifist' war supporter. While this option is selected, players won't receive war aura, will not be able to march troops, nor attack war related npc's, or engage in PvP with players who are within the war related areas (Liruma, Mitrine, Ophidian Empire, etc). This protects them from random ganks and makes them immune to accidental ganking. This is a one time opt in thing. At any time during the war, you have the option to reject your pacifist ways, and you will then gain aura just like everyone else, and be open to any attacks from enemy factions so long as you are within the war related areas. After rejecting your pacifist status, you are locked in for the rest of the war as a combatant. This shouldn't cause any problems with troop management now that you can pass off your troops to other people. Admin might need up how many divisions a person can have under their control, however.


I'm interested in hearing what people think of these solutions as well as any others they have in mind. Discuss!

EmirIazamatTozAxiusMjollKalakRhyotOonagh

Comments

  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee
    I think the problem is hanging out in non pk zones waiting to pk people more than anything. If you want to pk you should be waiting in the pk zones.
    TozEmirIazamatXeniaTrikalKalakAzu
  • TozToz
    edited July 2018
    I have been chased from aura and killed at the gates of BL by people when I had aura from lessers. @Mjoll had it happen to her a lot of times, especially at the start of the war, with hostility aura. So obviously if you have aura and are not in an aura giving area, it's expected you still pk/be willing to fight- unless you're saying you were in the wrong for that, and I don't particularly think you were. It's simple. If you don't have aura, you don't get PK'd. The trouble is, now, the goalposts are being moved. I've been yelling at people non-stop "no aura = no pk", and apologizing any time I so much as attacked someone who didn't have aura. Flipside, @Zenobia got dug up at our mission board with no aura and pk'd, Iazamat/Kaldaka got killed with no aura at our mission board, @Borscin got killed again with no aura today after being forced to kick an Ophidian yesterday (while having no aura), and I was attacked 5 times and killed 3 with no aura in the course of like a RL hour because I was "camping the board", which I'll remind everyone is not against the rules, does not give cause, and provides no aura.

    If we use aura as the sole indicator of war involvement, it is doing a poor job and I feel spirit players are doing an even worse job of adhering to the rules currently. When paired with the stated strategy by a vocal lifer minority of "don't give them pk and bait them into hitting you without aura so you can issue", the problem is pretty clearly not "don't pk people in the non pk flagged rooms".

    Active participation in the war should flag you as an active participant, no matter what war-related task you are doing. War is, by nature, a PK scenario. Crafters don't have to go into Sect to get crafting materials, bashers don't get flagged as open pk, and RPers don't need to worry about me jumping them so they can emote, why should PKers have to deal with all of the above groups getting self-righteous about being PK'd for participating in a PK event? If you are unwilling to eat PK deaths, you should not participate in the war, period.

    As a compromise however, I suggest the following changes:
    - Move a mission board to the gathering room of each city, or create embassies for the factions, something that means you don't have to go into the Mit village/Rock Bottom to get missions
    - Flag all villages involved as open pk, as well
    - Harvesting roe/sweetgrass flags you as open pk so that you can't harvest/gather supplies without risk
    - Turn-in box is in the village still
    - Marching troops gives aura

    Now anyone who is participating in the war is properly flagged as opting in to a PK event, and there is no such thing as board-camping or aura abuse, or killing people with no aura.

    Yes, turn-in spot will be camped. This should be expected, as it's strategic to deny resupply to your enemy.
    Yes, it means people might die outside of the Liruma (harvesting etc).
    Yes, it means you can't just deliver/empress/portal/warp in your novices, they have to actually take a risk. War is dangerous.

    The current aura setup is only causing frustrations, with one side tiptoeing around the line and following the rules as strictly as they can, and the other ignoring them wholeheartedly to make up reasons why it's okay, with both sides agreeing that aura is a clumsy way to handle things.

    Arbre-Today at 7:27 PM

    You're a vindictive lil unicorn
    ---------------------------

    Lartus-Today at 7:16 PM

    oh wait, toz is famous

    Karhast-Today at 7:01 PM

    You're a singularity of fucking awfulness Toz
    ---------------------------
    Didi's voice resonates across the land, "Yay tox."
    ---------------------------

    Ictinus11/01/2021

    Block Toz
    ---------------------------

    limToday at 10:38 PM


    you disgust me
    ---------------------------
    (Web): Bryn says, "Toz is why we can't have nice things."

    MjollEmirIazamatXeniaTrikalKalakRhyotOonagh
  • Aishia said:

    I think the problem is hanging out in non pk zones waiting to pk people more than anything. If you want to pk you should be waiting in the pk zones.

    . The rules, while defined, get lost as people gain negative experiences with one another and feel they have justifiable cause for stepping outside the PK-Aura.


    I could air out a laundry list of things that have happened, so could you and or others, blah blah blah and end it with 'Why don't you just follow the rules?!'. I'm suggesting we avoid all this by making it a true warzone with the option to be a pacifist and excluded from combat.

  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee
    I feel like it's supposed to be like you said, a proxy war. I think probably both sides are spending too much time trying to engage with each other at the back end of the war, when the intention was probably only to be while moving troops/bashing enemy units/completing hostile objectives in war zone areas.
    There's supposed to be some leeway to do the nonhostile ones. It kinda sounds like you're proposing a MORE problematic and less inclusive version where like half the playerbase or more won't even want to log in or participate anymore. Should probably be pushing pk AWAY from the villages rather than just making it so no one can participate without getting dogpiled by 10 man gank squads from either side. Inb4 dogpile of partisan forum reactions.
    Xenia
  • edited July 2018
    There's always this threat that "people" are going to stop logging in/playing/participating. Granted I am new compared to many of you but I've yet to see evidence of this in my time playing.

    There's also never been active warfare since I've players. At what point is this player base going to evolve and move on from whatever happened > 5 years ago? Who's to say some players aren't going to get hooked and take a larger interest in PK and breathe a new set of life?

    Just because you have no interest in helping a new generation of players learn to PK or usher them through the process, deal with the set backs and losses, doesn't mean that others don't or won't and will now have an excuse to do so.

    Edit: This part was probably abuse flag worthy. My bad.



    TrikalEmirIazamatKalak
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee
    Was something you mostly saw in previous iterations of war I suppose. Whole world got open pk some cities pushed militia involvement too much so everyone was open pk.
  • TekiasTekias Wisconsin
    Just gonna put this out there: The goal was clearly to be inclusive to all sorts: Com, Non-Com alike. There's missions that have absolutely nothing to do with combat or hunting at all. There's missions that thrive in it. Making it all PK (even with an exclusion option) seems a step back from what the intent is, rather than making it better.
    Formerly: Spiegel. Eidycue.

    Hi.

    image
    EowynKalakSaritaTeaniOonagh
  • The proposed 2nd solution still gave non combatants the ability to do missions, just not PK related ones, and the bashing ones are sort of a gray area that, for RP and mechanical purposes alike, pretty much fall into PK for this. Attacking a mob loyal to a faction, that is important to the faction for war related things, is not a pacifist type thing, and it should also be something that can be protected against.

    I don't see how/where/why you or Aishia think this is a step back, and I think you guys confused some things all into one solution?
    (Web): Toz says, "Emir's Express Evacuation and Existence Eradicator, Every Experience is Explosive - Experience the Entirety of your Existence!"
    IazamatTrikalKalakRhyotTeaniOonaghXenia
  • edited July 2018
    Thematically I always found aura appear as outlandish because it is a separation indicator between PvP, PvE and non-combat activities. The war event has been a good step towards going away from detached avenues of conflict (Ylem, Sect etc.) to seamless ones and we might as well take the next step and turn warzone into a total hotzone.

    There is always a risk that one person can stop playing actively, we should not put that worry into our equation. But in throughout my time within IRE I have yet to see people leaving in droves because they were killed 2-3 times while doing their routine ingame activities. Mostly people leave after burning out due to a kind of drama within organizations. The deaths of people instead create validation for protectors, mercenary guard, assassin, bounty hunter roles. I find it awkward in this game people can declare you an enemy to their entire faction and expect going about their business in peace.

    Now back to the warzone issue at hand, non-coms giving crafts and fishroes can be considered RPwise a logistical operation and in war disrupting logistical operations is one of the keys to success. Killing a faction NPC, supplying factions with crucial items and denying enemies such supplies are part of the deal.

    For example, when Kalak bought 250 wound dressings from Enorian at 1 gold per, he was promptly declared an enemy to Enorian. Which was a non-com purchase activity from the outset. But for war it was a minor logistical disruption worth 500 cloth commodity. So why should we not consider fishroes and sweetgrass in similar vein? If one party is adamant on farming them, they would be denying fishroes and sweetgrass to the other side. I am not saying they should be declared enemies for that act but they should be under a modicum of risk for harvesting for war and delivering to the hotzone.
    XeniaZailaHaven
  • EowynEowyn Somewhere
    None of the solutions above will help the situation. As others have already said, it'll just make it worse for those who are just trying to help be involved.

    1. Very few are participating solely for RP reasons, and are trying to help out for their primary org's sake. No one in our two orgs will -not- want to be able to get troops for their efforts.

    2. Most deal with what aura they do get right now, very few slipping around it. It's often hard to find someone who can bring you in, and you all have been countering those sneaking in options fine. I'm probably the only one right now with a steady, non-avoidable way to get in without getting aura that you can't stop. Wormholes can be canceled, rooms can be mono'd for songline/portal/del/etc, cube so people can't re-lightform/phase. It uses supplies, sure, but that's part of a 'war', even a proxy one. Using up our commodities.

    3. The only real benefit of having aura in villages is that we could attack those that camp a board without having to worry about them not having aura from sitting there too long.

    What we have now is not great, but it works for a proxy war. I'd rather not tip the scale and frustrate either side more than they already are.
    KalakTekiasIazamatXenia
  • Right now what we have does not work because we are catching flak for engaging as the rules are written constantly (aura = pk), and Spirit side is ignoring the rules as written except when it involves them.

    You can give your troops to someone else to march and not yield your pacifist aura like in @Xenia's suggestion- a way for noncomms to help out in the war exists already, getting more directly involved SHOULD come with consequences and pk while involved in a war. You are basically a soldier at that time, you should be killable.

    Just like when the Templars complained the Carnifex were raiding villages too much and refused to engage, or when Duiran launched a coordinated issue campaign against @Trikal because he was raiding while posting and shouting about how they would never stop fighting, or when a few Enorian players ganked a mewbie nonstop for bashing Tainhelm (when he wasn't there, just any time) and then issued when they got attacked back by people, etc. Etc? You are allowed to want to support your city. But at some point, if you want to RP a protector of the weak or a guardian of something, you have to actually pay the piper and PK. Shadow side has a TON of problems, not the least of which is my temper, but Spirit side has ALWAYS threatened to quit forever any time they get made to actually risk PK over beliefs.

    Why do I have to walk the straight and narrow because I enjoy PK and want to participate directly in an event, whereas Jonny Noncomm can play "Not Touching You" with no aura one day, then gank with 7 when one of ours is afk at mission board?

    It's a war. You should die if you actively and aggressively participate - nobody is saying you should be open pk globally, but you absolutely should be a valid war target while doing war things because it's...a war.

    Arbre-Today at 7:27 PM

    You're a vindictive lil unicorn
    ---------------------------

    Lartus-Today at 7:16 PM

    oh wait, toz is famous

    Karhast-Today at 7:01 PM

    You're a singularity of fucking awfulness Toz
    ---------------------------
    Didi's voice resonates across the land, "Yay tox."
    ---------------------------

    Ictinus11/01/2021

    Block Toz
    ---------------------------

    limToday at 10:38 PM


    you disgust me
    ---------------------------
    (Web): Bryn says, "Toz is why we can't have nice things."

    RhyotIazamatOonaghXeniaZaila
  • edited July 2018
    Friendly village should be safe, enemy village should flag as open pk just by walking in, not by attacking an NPC.

    EDIT: Or put non-crittable mobs at the mission boards, I dunno
    EowynTeaniOonaghXeniaJami
  • EowynEowyn Somewhere
    edited July 2018
    Neither side is any better than the other side in either following or not following the rules consistently. Neither side is better than the other in any regard to this war. We've all been jerks in different capacities and situations - that is the way of the game, unfortunately. One side acts, the other side retaliates, one side acts harder, the other side goes harder, and it keeps going back and forth until both are just livid at each other. If we started a list, we'd see that, but all it would do is start arguments that serve no purpose but to re-frustrate tensions that are already strained.

    In the end, I will still remain on my point that the suggestions will not help. Maybe the no-pk flag thing -if- people still get troops and can assign them to someone else, but I don't think enough to see any significant difference in participation/frustration.

    Edit: I do think what Fezzix says would work. Friendly village safe, enemy village you get aura. That I could get behind.
    IazamatEmir
  • Our jerk status is camping the mission boards and killing people who have aura. That is a completely permitted kill, following the letter of the law. Anyone who killed a lifer with no aura has been reamed by us and our leadership any time it has been brought to our attention, and I'd wager that it hasn't happened period in a week or two.

    Conversely, light side has killed more people lately with no aura - they are actively getting worse about it. Their leadership is doing it and encouraging it, you included. I'm not upset about that though, because I'd prefer it be that way. I am upset about the disparity and double standards that have continued throughout the war.

    If we have to play with no aura no pk, and things don't change, I'm not sure what the next step is aside from issues- I've already been hunting down the people who jumped me without aura several times, but that doesn't seem to be discouraging the illegal activity.

    To summarize, I'm guilty of being an ass, at worst. You are guilty of knowingly, willingly and repeatedly violating PK rules. I think the rules you violated are dumb, inflexible, and should be changed. If you disagree, please stop breaking them because I don't want to issue my friends.

    Arbre-Today at 7:27 PM

    You're a vindictive lil unicorn
    ---------------------------

    Lartus-Today at 7:16 PM

    oh wait, toz is famous

    Karhast-Today at 7:01 PM

    You're a singularity of fucking awfulness Toz
    ---------------------------
    Didi's voice resonates across the land, "Yay tox."
    ---------------------------

    Ictinus11/01/2021

    Block Toz
    ---------------------------

    limToday at 10:38 PM


    you disgust me
    ---------------------------
    (Web): Bryn says, "Toz is why we can't have nice things."

    IazamatMjollEmirXenia
  • Can someone actually explain how it's worse/won't help instead of repeating that ad nauseam?
  • RhyotRhyot Bloodloch
    I actually think that marking the entire area and both villages as open PK areas will help. This is supposed to be a war. You're supposed to run disruption missions, you're supposed to target high profile characters and eliminate them. You're supposed to break supply lines and you're supposed to stop your enemies from gathering. All of these are actual things that happen in wars. This should be no different.

    Aetolia is a game that is meant to encompass all sorts of people. Lately, its been punishing people who want to do PK away by taking away any form of PK at all. Until the war, there's been very little Sect fighting and only group fights in the forms of lessers/majors. Most people don't even do the orrery anymore because of pathetic rewards or because the missions at the mission board REQUIRE things to be done with the orrery. Because of the war, we're seeing a lot more PK and it's a lot more fun. You're seeing a lot more Sect fights as well. You're also seeing a lot more 1v1 activity too! Something that's been on the decline for the past year!

    More and more we see things pushed to the RP side of things and less the PK side of things (re: Three Widows War). Wanting protection status to help in the war is part of this problem.


    The community as a whole needs to understand that war is meant to be a completely PK avenue. Yes, non-comms can help, but even they need to realize that their help can AND IS seen as support for the enemy, especially if you're running missions. You're ACTIVELY helping in the war, which by legal terms, makes you active combatant and active participant.

    TLDR: @Xenia and @Toz are right. Make the villages open pk and let loose the dogs of war.


    Zaila
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