Announce post #2859: Factions for War!

AutoposterAutoposter BotMember, Bot Posts: 308 ✭✭✭✭
<pre>7/5/2018 at 3:09
Tiur, the Gnosis
Everyone
Factions for War!

Everyone should now notice that they have retroactively been given reputation in a War Faction representing the different sides of said war. Also, they have lost lots of standing with the others.

Missions going forward will also reward this reputation.

Yes, if you switch sides now it will be really hard to fix your reputation. We might fix that in the future if there's actually a desire.

-T

Penned by my hand on Closday, the 22nd of Chakros, in the year 474 MA.</pre>
MjollMimoteshPazradymZaila
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Comments

  • LeanaLeana Member Posts: 225 ✭✭✭
    edited July 2018
    This changes some things...

    Unpopular opinion: Get rid of the Imps as a supportable faction. Leave them in the war, but change the negative faction rep you gain for the other two and remove troops. Make it so doing Imp missions indirectly supports one of the other two sides (Like they're mercenaries) and/or sabotages the other. Gain 100 Imp rep, lose 50 Mitrine, gain 50 Ophidians. Let people decide on spending mission allowances on the main faction, for more rep/resources/troops, or to sabotage the other faction.

    It was a good idea to have three factions but due to the current dynamics of Spirit tether, Shadow can't divide their forces. The population was conflicted because of the mess RP that led to this war and as a result interest in dwindling. Even a vote, like Spines had, wouldn't help. It just illustrates how many are feeling there's no real stake in this conflict aside from personal attachment to a faction that isn't being supported. 

    As a game, I want to play with the others and not waste my time supporting a faction that has zero chance to win this war and will actively hurt my tether. I can't be alone in this sentiment.


    Edit: I lost interest when we were herded to support the Ophidians by the divine. Especially since every encounter with the ophidians until the war started was negative and anti-Bloodloch. I want to participate but I'm not having fun doing it purely to help Bloodloch and spite tether as a whole. I feel the Indorani got shafted for trying to be apart of the event at every turn (Way before the cultist genocide).


    FezzixZaila
  • TozToz Member Posts: 2,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2018
    The Divine didn't herd anyone to support Ophidians,  unless y'all founded an order for me. Which hey, I'm all for that!

    Edit: Imp trappers are the reason we support the Ophidians. 1 rainbow trap = 1 genocide.

    Arbre-Today at 7:27 PM

    You're a vindictive lil unicorn
    ---------------------------

    Lartus-Today at 7:16 PM

    oh wait, toz is famous
    ---------------------------

    Karhast-Today at 7:01 PM

    You're a singularity of unicorns awfulness Toz
    FezzixXeniaElliot
  • FezzixFezzix Member Posts: 320 ✭✭✭✭
    The only criticism I can offer with this event is that the Spirit tether choice was a no-brainer, but Shadow was pretty divided from the start on which to support. It took us several days to come to a consensus, and it's hard to put your heart into something you don't believe in as @Leana mentioned earlier.

    The dilemma had some nice RP elements to it, but it mechanically put Shadow tether at a disadvantage. I can't imagine what might have happened if Spirit side had been given a less obvious choice in factions to support, i.e. ones that might have put a strain on some IC relationships like the Indorani/Ophidian dynamic.
    LeanaMimoteshZailaKalak
  • LeanaLeana Member Posts: 225 ✭✭✭
    edited July 2018
    @Toz maybe I was a bit harsh but both cities had a God login to talk to the citizens about the Ophidians. That's what I meant. It definitely swayed on the fence people (and the whole impcist ordeal probably helped lol). A lot of people prefer the Imps. I was trying to find a solution to bring more activity and get more opinions.

    Edit: agree with Fezz on that disadvantage nature of this event.


  • ZailaZaila Pacific TimeMember Posts: 547 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Even as a rogue, you have to side with the Mitrine if you don't want all spirit tether to hate you. From the get-go, Zaila (as hated as she is by both sides of the fence) asked people for their opinions on who to support and the shadow side would give reasoned arguments, but ultimately were fine with whoever you chose as long as you had a good reason. Contrastingly, but every spirit-aligned character essentially said "If you don't help the Mitrine, we'll never be friends again, you're dead to me".

    And, while this says more about the Spirit vs. Shadow tether-players/characters as a whole, it definitely supports that the shadow side was distinctly at a disadvantage from the get go.
    Leana
  • PhoeneciaPhoenecia The Merchant of Esterport Somewhere in AtticaMember Posts: 775 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2018
    Going to echo the sentiment that despite there being three factions, the choice for which faction to back was extremely easy for both Duiran and Enorian because of the Mitrine's worship of the Cycle. It didn't become obvious until later that supporting the Impire is never going to happen for Duiran. Enorian and Duiran have some more palpable stakes and some pretty good reasons for supporting the Mitrine. Bloodloch and Spinesreach don't really have as good a reason for supporting the Ophidians beyond 'just because'. Honestly, both cities could have just told the Impire and Ophidians to buzz off and stayed out of it and it'd have been a legitimate response.

    The other main criticism I have with the war event is that despite there being a lot of PK elements (open PK zone, hostility aura, being unable to reach any of the mission boards without acquiring PK aura) there's really no incentive or huge benefits to engaging in PK. You lose a LOT of exp if you die (and you end up dying a lot in this conflict), and there's not a lot to gain. This kind of leads to a trend of 'get in, complete missions, leave' as quickly as possible without ever running into opposition. I'll be honest: some of the harder missions I just end up doing during off-peak hours when I can avoid opposition because war related PvP is soooo not worth it. It's not like foci stuff where I'm usually all too eager to jump in because I can get a ton of exp that way. If you look at it from a cost-benefit perspective, there's no benefit to engaging in PvP beyond being a very small aspect in the ultimate goal of completing missions.

    Edit: Also, while I don't mind the inclusion of Orrery missions, they feel really out of place considering theain vonflcon has been in the Liruma/Aureliana.
    Leana
  • KynaKyna Victoria, AustraliaMember Posts: 281 Immortal
    Hey guys!

    I'll reply without disclosing too much information about some of the future milestones so you still get the fun of seeing them come to fruition.

    We chose three factions for a few reasons, however the main reason was to have a wildcard thrown in there on purpose. That wildcard, in this case, the Ophidian's, could have had their support thrown towards either tether. What dictated this was their interactions with the various orgs belonging to both tethers - how they were received, treated and what these organisations brought to the table.

    I can confidently inform you that, out of the players on the fields, Enorian and Bloodloch were likely the most conflicted when it came to making a decision on the Ophidian Empire. Similarly, no Gods were attempting to "herd" players into making a specific decision, They did, however, remind you to stay open to your various choices to not get tunnel vision.

    There is no ONE PATH in this event, the ebb and flow of it largely come from how the players, and characters, receive it. We work on this event EVERY day to alter its direction towards the feedback and RP arcs derived from it.

    tl;dr The wildcard was for a reason. It was meant to make you pause, consider your reasoning for your choice and commit to it. The ripples were intended, it creates an immersion that two sides would have lacked. It evoked a need to converse with each other, argue and work together. Or not.

    It will constantly evolve, have new avenues for participation and RP throughout summer.
    EowynZaila
  • LeanaLeana Member Posts: 225 ✭✭✭
    (I'm mostly airing my issues around this event in as positive a way as someone can air complaints. It got a little long)

    I might be the only one who doesn't like the event. It's not that I dislike the idea or the mechanics so far, it's the story and the way it was handled. It tarnished the whole thing for me at the moment the Ophidians became the choice. I want to like the war because I recognize the effort and the potential fun for being apart of it. I just can't get into it because it feels like at the last second the Ophidians did a 180degree swerve and suddenly became Bloodloch/Spinesreach friends. I'd be betraying Leana and the Indorani.

    I had a conversation earlier over Research clan and I get the sense that had it gone in the other direction, with us settling on Imps, others would be in my position now. I can see the immersion here and it's not worth it. Not to be excluded from a major event that's largely going to be conducted semi-ooc (Mostly organized in webs and clans). I think three factions, where the Spirit had only one choice and shadow has essentially two (anything but what the others picked), was a bad idea that started with good intentions. It should have been sacrificed when that became a clear problem.

    @Kyna I said I was a bit harsh about that 'herding' line. It may not have been intentional but having a Divine speak is going to turn heads and what they say is going to be taken with a lot of weight. It's also going to be taken the wrong way if they're trying to be subtle about it. I've been told many times that people only seem to latch onto the surface details and ignore subtext when it comes to Aetolia. There's no way to know for sure, it's just how I feel about the situation.

    Bloodloch was on the fence because the Ophidians were never presented as a good choice. They outright refused us at each interaction, stating the undead and dark magic was not their way, allying with the Enorians many times. Not everyone liked the Imps, for many of the reasons Fezzix stated, so they weren't a clear choice either. Bloodloch had no reason to care about this war aside from what's driving them now: Spite. When Spinesreach decided, that forced Bloodloch's hand. If they didn't want to lose they needed to back the same faction Spinesreach was so they wouldn't be in a 2v1v1 fight and resources are already so thin. There could of been ten factions and the result would have been the same. If Bloodloch responded first and picked a faction, things may have been different, though. I don't think Spinesreach would have based their choice on Bloodloch's, though I imagine many would have considered it when they voted.

    There were many opportunities for the RP to open to the Ophidians being closer to Bloodloch. I was there for many of those chances and they never came. At the cultist genocide, we attempted to talk to them to stop or delay it, where they could have halted and allowed Bloodloch to take the cultist in as slaves or prisoners (we have prisons in both cities). There was one saving grace which we are thankful for and I won't share too many details about, but it was a parting gift.

    One meeting I wasn't around for was them asking for a ceasefire, which came off as weakness or deception and Bloodloch quickly refused as that's not our way. Could have easily offered something worthwhile or clued us into the spirit in the stone or something else. When the Ophidians ravaged Khepri's old temple, which a lot of people still want back, they lost more fans.

    I know a lot of work went into things and it has brought a lot of people out of the living statue condition. There's a lot of good all around. Yet, Leana hasn't seen or heard anything to convince her that the Ophidians even care that we're helping. I asked about treaties and motivations for the city to be apart of this outsider war and the response I got from the war minister was 'Spite'. Which I was happy to hear because it's very Bloodlochish and Borscin's back and I've always been a fan. It's not enough for Leana or the Indorani as a whole to turn against the course they were set on since this first started.

    This post is one part complaints, one part hoping some of my points resonate with others so it doesn't happen again, and one part trying to convince myself I could have more fun abandoning/forcing Lea into some mental gymnastics and support the Ophidians or gain further stigma from the Shadow tether for supporting the imps, despite absolutely no hope of winning and possibly directly hurting my home city not putting resources towards a losing faction. Or doing nothing related to the war entirely.

    (Starting with a negative faction rep with the Ophidians despite doing nothing to them during the war doesn't help!)


  • RazmaelRazmael Member, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 1,367 admin
    I'd like to break down some misconceptions here. These are things that have been clarified in private meetings between our Producer and organizations, and elsewhere on public mediums, but it seems they need to be reinforced here.

    As Kyna stated: The Ophidians were a swing faction. Everyone had two options: the obvious choice and the work of convincing the Ophidians to let go of some of their history and move forward in a new direction. This was something that both tethers struggled over. Enorian was very close to siding with the Ophidians, and had members equally as concerned about the entity in the monolith as Spinesreach has been.

    Divine interceded before hard impulse decisions were made on all sides. The Pools team wanted to ensure that everyone understood their options before committing. This did not come across as was intended, apparently, but you can either hold onto it or move forward. What we did not want was impulse decisions leading to upset because cool things were missed out on without knowing they were an option.

    In regards to the Divine intercession: I really don't know how subtle, "I don't care who you side with, but make an informed decision," is. This is nearly verbatim what both Chakrasul and Severn told their associated patronages.

    If we really want to get into the details of Bloodloch and the Ophidians: Bloodloch was the first city the Ophidians approached. The Empress Agra went to Bloodloch personally and met with the Keeper and other officials. The Ophidians needed strong allies and there were a lot of commonalities in their histories, however brutal, and that this could be a new era. Bloodloch essentially told them to get lost. It was Bloodloch's representatives cut that diplomacy short.

    Ultimately, the decision was left to a democratic process Spinesreach opted to go for, with Ophidians narrowly edging out Imps. With results being that close, there's always going to be someone upset that their favoured side wasn't picked.
    ZailaSaritaFezzix
  • BorscinBorscin Member Posts: 46 ✭✭✭
    edited July 2018
    I started writing this before Leana/Raz responded so it's a little awkward. No tl;dr because I'm lazier than you. I hope you like reading novels.
    Kyna said:


    We chose three factions for a few reasons, however the main reason was to have a wildcard thrown in there on purpose. That wildcard, in this case, the Ophidian's, could have had their support thrown towards either tether. What dictated this was their interactions with the various orgs belonging to both tethers - how they were received, treated and what these organisations brought to the table.

    I can confidently inform you that, out of the players on the fields, Enorian and Bloodloch were likely the most conflicted when it came to making a decision on the Ophidian Empire.

    I guess I'd first like to go over the Enorian/Bloodloch conflict of choice in supporting Ophidians mentioned above. As someone who has played on and off for a pretty long time (including in Shallam/Enorian), I really do not see Ophidians ever being supported by Enorian. Maybe I'm old and misremembering, or lots has changed since I was around, but aren't the Ophidians supported by Severn? Maybe it was just me being a newbie Paladin and some sort of snake humanoid racist, but I grouped Ophidians with the Shadowsnakes (pre-syssin) class, and used to bash them for this reason. I'm also pretty sure Severn's order had placed a shrine down there, which I had assumed was a show of solidarity.

    Even if none of the above is right (or was but has been tossed), once the Mitrine joined there was likely almost no chance Enorian would support the Ophidians. My guess is Enorian was only interested in the Ophidians because of the Indorani being against them. Like BL, they probably didn't care all that much about the Ophidians. Duiran would immediately back the Mitrine, and Enorian wouldn't really have any reason to not back them as well. Unless some massive boon was offered to Enorian by the Ophidians, it was going to be Spirit behind Mitrine 100%. And based on how BL's interaction went with the Ophidians, I'm assuming there wasn't that much offered to Enorian, since my understanding is there wasn't much offered to BL. I guess that's part of the "How they were received, treated, and what these organisations brought to the table." part of the quote above. Because in an IG sense, BL will likely almost never feel like they have to bring anything to an NPC faction's table, and the NPC faction will have to almost beg for BL's support, especially if they aren't undead/vampires. If we were meant to bring something to the Ophidian's table, BL likely wouldn't, and I'm assuming Enorian wouldn't either if the option was to back Mitrine instead.

    It kind of seems like the Mitrine's involvement was stuttered purposefully, in the hopes that Enorian would say they are backing the Ophidians. Then when the Mitrine joined, suddenly there would be a wrench tossed into the Spirit side choices. But I'm pretty sure if that was the case, the wrench missed so hard it basically hopped on a flight to Antarctica. The second I saw the RP message of the hollering of Mitrine warriors I said 'oh, I guess Enorian and Duiran will back Mitrine once they become a faction."
    Kyna said:


    Similarly, no Gods were attempting to "herd" players into making a specific decision, They did, however, remind you to stay open to your various choices to not get tunnel vision.

    It wasn't exactly herding, but the actions of the divine/admin to hop on city channels (and order channels) and suggest a different side seemed a little odd to me. It was at a point where neither the Ophidians or Imps had really done much to convince BL or Spines to support either side. Due to the Indorani RP early on with the Ophidians, it seemed supporting the Imps was the obvious choice. Chaotic and soul-stealing? Didn't kill the cultists with hounds? Are too dumb to know what's good for them and easily controlled? Seems good.

    Then, from my understanding, Severn hopped on Spines city channel, and Chakrasul hopped on BL's. The conversation wasn't necessarily a "herding" one, but seemed very much a "By the way the Ophidians can be backed too you guys could try that." You must understand that we players are dumb. When a God tells us something like that, to us it basically means "This is what you are supposed to do." At the very least, it swayed those indifferent to the whole thing to be fine with supporting the Ophidians. I feel like if there was this planned wildcard, and we were supposed to RP our way to a decision... then why even have divine/admin pipe up on city channels (This is answered by Raz but I'm leaving it in to show my confusion as a player)? I will also note that Iosyne (an order with lots of BL and Spines people) popped up on OT, and spoke with our OH (Xenia) about supporting Imps, and it kind of sounded like "Oh you're supporting the side that only cares about themselves and think they're better than everyone." That to me read "One of our tenets is equality and they don't believe in it so you shouldn't support them." Again, if this was supposed to be our RP choice, it seemed odd to pop up on CT and "remind" us of the wildcard faction. I guess another question here would be, did Enorian and Duiran get the same or similar "reminder"?
    Kyna said:


    tl;dr The wildcard was for a reason. It was meant to make you pause, consider your reasoning for your choice and commit to it. The ripples were intended, it creates an immersion that two sides would have lacked. It evoked a need to converse with each other, argue and work together. Or not.

    There is no ONE PATH in this event, the ebb and flow of it largely come from how the players, and characters, receive it. We work on this event EVERY day to alter its direction towards the feedback and RP arcs derived from it.

    I don't really think a third faction as a wildcard would be necessary for this. In fact, all it does is make us confused and question our choices in the beginning, instead of being an ongoing consideration, which seems like having this be a long event is part of the point. It would make more sense to me if there were only two factions, but each faction had some sort of "splinter group" within it that different members of shadow/spirit could RP/interact with to push those sides in different directions. Maybe Spinesreach wants to do X with the Ophidians that the Emperor agrees with, but some splinter group that BL supports wants to do Y instead. That would not only make it ongoing, but would have avoided a lot of unnecessary confusion in the beginning. Aet itself is very much a 2 faction game, outside of when we as players change that (BL vs Spines happens occasionally).

    And I really don't see how there isn't only one path right now. Things are ongoing so it'll be interesting to see, but it's not like BL/Spines can just go "unicorns you Ophidians, we're backing Imps now". Especially not with the factions mechanic now in place, or even with how missions and troops work.

    Leana and Raz responded before I could post what I have below, so I'm randomly adding more to my lengthy post to reply to them below:
    Ty for the fandom Leana. It's pretty interesting to see your comments/concerns as someone who has avoided the system and how they compare to mine as someone who has been pretty involved (although not at the start, which is when you were involved). I actually tried reaching out to you/Indorani to do some (very) minor RP to see if I could convince you to back Ophidians. I'm too lazy for letters and messaged you all which maybe isn't the best way to start the interaction, but never heard back (or if I did I missed it soz). But I'm assuming you all probably didn't want to hear it anyway.

    Since Leana mentioned it, Bors' IG reasons are literally "We fight Enorian/Duiran at whatever they do which means the Mitrine must be razed." That is partially because I have not really had any RP/interaction with the Ophidians, but also because that's a long standing Bors thing, and also I has a player liked the old war system and Bors is supposed to be a war-like and war liking dude. Bors doesn't give a unicorns about the Ophidians (Someone, I think Kelliara, once said "Oh no they're attacking the war chief" and I literally said "So what"). I even helped Ansidia move Imp troops in the beginning because it meant taking over Mitrine land. Bors is here simply to be anti-Eno/Duiran. But I will admit here that it is getting really, really difficult to continue to dump IG and OOC resources and time into the war and missions system and the event in general. In fact, I have consistently considered walking up to the war chief or emperor and saying "Convince me to continue running your war for you." And if they can't, straight up attempting to pull BL out of the war.
    Razmael said:

    Enorian was very close to siding with the Ophidians, and had members equally as concerned about the entity in the monolith as Spinesreach has been.

    I am guessing that the closeness was immediately undone once the Mitrine came about? Which kind of reiterates some of the points I made above. This is another "players are dumb" thing. If a faction you are clearly supposed to back suggests stuff, 99% of the time we are going to assume it's because the admin want us to follow this path. So if the Mitrine want to release the spirit, then most Duiran/Enorian people are going to say 'Well that's obviously the thing to do.' We don't know what it is. It could delete Aetolia has a game if it's released. But we generally blindly follow NPCs and factions in these sort of events because we assume they lead us to something. I don't think many of us assume we are supposed to convince the factions they're wrong, or something like that. And to be honest, why would we?
    Razmael said:


    Divine interceded before hard impulse decisions were made on all sides. The Pools team wanted to ensure that everyone understood their options before committing. This did not come across as was intended, apparently, but you can either hold onto it or move forward. What we did not want was impulse decisions leading to upset because cool things were missed out on without knowing they were an option.

    In regards to the Divine intercession: I really don't know how subtle, "I don't care who you side with, but make an informed decision," is. This is nearly verbatim what both Chakrasul and Severn told their associated patronages.

    Also commented about this above, but I guess you answered my question about Eno/Duiran getting a similar talk. I didn't really read what Chak said on CT has "I don't care, make an informed decision". I read it as "The Ophidians are also a choice." Which as I mentioned, players are dumb, and will likely read into that as "Oh Chak must want us to support Ophidians!"

    In all honesty, I think trying to have us avoid "impulse" decisions and being upset about it later has backfired. I have seen much more people saying "Man, I wish we were supporting the Imps." Myself included. In fact, revealing that the Ophidians were a "swing" faction basically has me feeling swindled. Like, "Oh, you got us! We were supposed to support the Imps, but we're dumb and got baited by the wildcard!". Again, I personally believe shoving two factions down our throats but having some play within the two factions would have been a bit better off than the wildcard. Pushing a third wildcard faction will just provide confusion over intrigue, especially because Enorian/Duiran have a much closer tie than Spines and BL (I have personally been at the helm of anti-Spines BL activity). Like Leana, I felt a 2v1v1 was about to happen. Unless some more IG wedges are placed between Enorian/Duiran, there's a pretty small chance they won't always back each other.
    Razmael said:


    If we really want to get into the details of Bloodloch and the Ophidians: Bloodloch was the first city the Ophidians approached. The Empress Agra went to Bloodloch personally and met with the Keeper and other officials. The Ophidians needed strong allies and there were a lot of commonalities in their histories, however brutal, and that this could be a new era. Bloodloch essentially told them to get lost. It was Bloodloch's representatives cut that diplomacy short.

    Ironically, the only thing I heard about this was that the Ophidians didn't offer anything to BL and basically told BL to get lost. So I guess our playerbase and the admins controlling the Ophidians ended up feeling the same way about the interaction. But I wasn't there for that. I guess I'll go back to what I've mentioned above and say, if this is the interaction that happened, then why have divine go on CT to remind us Ophidians are a choice? Especially if we already told them to get lost.
    Razmael said:


    Ultimately, the decision was left to a democratic process Spinesreach opted to go for, with Ophidians narrowly edging out Imps. With results being that close, there's always going to be someone upset that their favoured side wasn't picked.

    I sincerely believe the vote went the way of the Ophidians because of the above mentioned CT interactions from Severn and Chakrasul. I am not blaming them or the admin, I'll say it a fourth time, us players are dumb. It was also up to us to convince other players if we wanted them to go Imps. But neither Imps nor Ophidians really seemed like great choices, nothing as strong as the Mitrine for Duiran might be, for example. It came to a vote because we didn't know what else to do.

    LeanaEmirVyxsis
  • VyxsisVyxsis VyxsisMember Posts: 477 ✭✭✭✭
    Razmael said:

    If we really want to get into the details of Bloodloch and the Ophidians: Bloodloch was the first city the Ophidians approached. The Empress Agra went to Bloodloch personally and met with the Keeper and other officials. The Ophidians needed strong allies and there were a lot of commonalities in their histories, however brutal, and that this could be a new era. Bloodloch essentially told them to get lost. It was Bloodloch's representatives cut that diplomacy short.

    hi, vyx was at this meeting, and vyx (at the time) was 100% against the ophidians. i think this is inaccurate. what was stated by our city leader (and even myself) before empress agra took off very abruptly was that the 'deal' we were offered gave us nothing, and we wanted to make a counter. "hi, stop attacking us pls, and in return we'll unenemy you" benefited the Ophidians without benefiting us in any particular way. that was the point made numerous times, but agra just took off. next thing we knew, enorian made a deal with them, so we were like "... lol k."

    so... i think the ophidians cut it short, not us. vyx was the most overtly hostile, and even she was sticking mostly on "they're not offering us anything" as her main talking point with the other org leaders there.
    Indoran'i is back baby. It's good again. Awoouu (wolf Howl)
    An Atzob cultist says, "Is a shamatato as tasty as a potato?"
    (Tells): From afar, Mephistoles hisses harshly to you, "Hey baby, show me your ovipositor?"
    The mighty Jy'Barrak Golgotha opens his maw, catches the glowing spear in his many jagged teeth, and chomps down. The Divine spear breaks with a noise like thunder, shards toppling from the Emperor's jaws. "OM NOM NOM!" He declares, then spits the last of the ruined weapon from his lips.




    MjollLeanaIazamat
  • TozToz Member Posts: 2,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The imps deserve death because of rainbow bombs. And if I have to fight the war alone to accomplish that, so be it. I'll pay real life dollars to be able to literally crucify those trappers in front of their family.

    Arbre-Today at 7:27 PM

    You're a vindictive lil unicorn
    ---------------------------

    Lartus-Today at 7:16 PM

    oh wait, toz is famous
    ---------------------------

    Karhast-Today at 7:01 PM

    You're a singularity of unicorns awfulness Toz
    MimoteshTekiasFezzixHaven
  • KalakKalak Member Posts: 274 ✭✭✭
    I have been enjoying the event so far. I think as a rogue the only bother was with the Hunting Grounds mission because I cannot enter there and most people will relinquish items after getting them to not be flagged for death. Now for choices, I had enough time to go through interactions to come to a decision between two side.

    For me it was a choice between Mitrine and Ophidians at start because there was absolutely no reason for my character to support Imps who were immensely chaotic and comical. Nonetheless in the mind of my character he does what he thinks best for the Spires whether Spireans like it or not, so advancing diplomatical efforts towards them and Ophidians made sense. But if we look at from a broader perspective one can find several reasons to support a faction.

    For example; from a humanitarian point of view one could see Mitrine as the oppressed and suffered enough (such as if anyone knows the story of Rahn and Niuri followers causing the destruction of their former home to crack open a magical orb). On the other hand let us say one can think that tribes of Mitrine might be prone to cause issues like they did in the distant past and the events within the ruins should transpire under guidance of the learned people.

    I am sure if we dig enough we can find several pros and cons for each faction and for that I think the event was a success.
    Xenia
  • VyxsisVyxsis VyxsisMember Posts: 477 ✭✭✭✭
    also, i keep seeing Y'all Folks say both sides had a choice between a shoe-in and the ophidians. my perception, however, is that this wasn't really the case. who was the shoe-in for bloodloch? the imps? there was literally no reason to support the imps aside from (1) racial solidarity - which severn pretty clearly was like WHOA DON'T DO IT FOR THAT REASON - or (2) the course vyx established through her interactions from the very beginning, which was pro-Beastlord/anti-Ophidian. supporting the imps was, for her, simply a sort of "screw you guys" rather than some obvious choice. on the whole, it seems the shadow tether was presented with two options we had no real reason to stick our necks out for, while the spirit tether had an obvious choice and the ophidians as a ~maybe~.

    a thing that's repeatedly frustrating to me as i read and as i've heard explanations from the admin/celani team is that Y'all keep falling back on your intentions for things in order to (seemingly) dismiss what players keep saying. "we were just telling you to consider your actions," for instance - multiple players have said over and over that severn and chak's interventions came across as a definite push toward the ophidians. i know the interaction with chak over city tells left me feeling *very* pressured, like i was yet again being super weird and running counter to what was expected of me - chak basically said "oh, i guess you would do this since you love chaos so much lol you're weird." people were already taking very strong stances *against* the ophidians, so while you might've intended to be (and in other contexts it might've come across as) neutral, you were def pushing against people who had made a choice. this left everyone present with the impression that we were making the wrong choice and were supposed to be supporting the ophidians. intentionally or not, this was the result, and it's really too late for explaining the intent to make any real difference since we're already pretty solidly locked into things.

    like, if y'all wanna say "aw jeez, we were trying to do X but clearly botched it," that's fine, but what i keep reading is coming across as very dismissive of players' impressions.
    Indoran'i is back baby. It's good again. Awoouu (wolf Howl)
    An Atzob cultist says, "Is a shamatato as tasty as a potato?"
    (Tells): From afar, Mephistoles hisses harshly to you, "Hey baby, show me your ovipositor?"
    The mighty Jy'Barrak Golgotha opens his maw, catches the glowing spear in his many jagged teeth, and chomps down. The Divine spear breaks with a noise like thunder, shards toppling from the Emperor's jaws. "OM NOM NOM!" He declares, then spits the last of the ruined weapon from his lips.




    LeanaEmir
  • PhoeneciaPhoenecia The Merchant of Esterport Somewhere in AtticaMember Posts: 775 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I can only speak from Duiran's perspective here about god-involvement regarding the initial picking of sides, but I can say for sure that both Haern and Slyphe were VERY good about making people consider their options while still coming across as largely impartial. They didn't seem like they were trying to sway anything one way or another. 

    I will say this much, there was probably a brief moment where Duiran and Enorian might NOT have thrown support behind the Mitrine's, especially since we had just come off of another big event involving Dendara and Kaarn. For those not aware: big bad evil thing sealed in Dendara and trying to escape. Having just come off of that event, you could easily draw similarities between that and the spirit in the monolith. But. Lleisian ties kind of made the Mitrine a no-brainer. If the faction had been different, the choice might not have been so easy. But there's a level of investment on the part of Eno and Duiran with the Mitrine because of it. Mitrine was always kind of seen as sort of an associated settlement, even if never in a formal way. You don't really get the same feeling in the way Spines and Loch are supporting the Ophidians.
  • BorscinBorscin Member Posts: 46 ✭✭✭
    In fact Phoe, the whole cultists/Indo thing made the split even larger than what it may have been before. So while Duiran sees an obvious "Oh sure Mitrine". What we see is a "Well Ophidians made Indorani mad, so Imps maybe?"

    Something I didn't note is that our interaction with the Imps wasn't great either. All my information is hearsay since I wasn't there, but there wasn't much going for us supporting them either apparently.
  • KynaKyna Victoria, AustraliaMember Posts: 281 Immortal
    Most prominently, this is the feedback I will take under-wing in regards to the Divine voices; as Chakrasul's Celani, there was no intention to "herd" or pressure a response, however Chakrasul as a Goddess is a bit ambiguous and I can understand the misconception when Her closing line was "A gamble, Bloodloch. Regardless, it will amuse Me to see the outcome. You will be stronger either way - due to failure, or success." For that you have an apology from me.
  • RazmaelRazmael Member, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 1,367 admin
    Alright, let me ask you guys then. And I'm asking genuinely here to know how to improve this for the future.

    Here's what Severn ended with, verbatim: Spinesreach, the decision is yours. Do not take My interjections as opposition to the Impire. My only desire is that you represent Spinesreach properly by talking to all sides and find out what benefits the city the most. I would be truly disappointed if the Impire was sided with purely because they're Imps.

    Honestly, I'm not sure how we could've made that any clearer. What would you guys have said differently?


    As for the Indorani/Cultist angle: This was unexpected for us. There's no record of any sort of interaction between Lorenzo/his cultists and the Indorani so we didn't expect that big of a blowback from it.
  • LeanaLeana Member Posts: 225 ✭✭✭
    edited July 2018
    Edit: I meant the other post Razmael made, not the one above this one.

    I had a long post focused mostly on replying to @Razmael's own post but I decided to just say I disagree with every point you made. Others have touched on it already so I don't need to dive in. I understand you or Kyna were not present for every moment of this so I'm not blaming you for the state it's currently in. There are things the admin could do to prevent this in the future and to fix it for the now. I've been through the bad event multiple times and this just feels like more of the same. I got burned during the Ati/Primus event. I got burned in this forced mexican standoff war.

    @Phoenecia Ophidians were part of Ashtan, that's why. Bloodloch and Spinesreach probably have more reason to see them wiped out than anything else. Indorani especially since they're deluded occultists.


  • VyxsisVyxsis VyxsisMember Posts: 477 ✭✭✭✭
    finally (triple post combo achievement unlocked!), on a personal note, the war has thus far been very alienating to me. i was super involved before there was any war, and often when very few other shadow-tether people were. vyx was pretty directly rebuffed by the ophidians when we were all introduced to the seeds of the conflict - i.e. right after the ophidians massacred most of the beastlords upon finding their chieftain dead. vyx took a side early and did concrete things to support her Beasty Bois. prior to the mitrine being introduced as a faction in the conflict, in fact, vyx single-handedly massacred the entire ophidian population and made a public post saying she would stamp out their stupid little snempire (snake empire). cool, those were choices i made, and they have consequences. however, the *fact* that the admin's actions (intentionally or not) significantly undermined vyx to the point that people who hadn't been nearly as involved made the decision to back the ophidians despite one of the most active and visible guild leaders in the game very publicly and visibly was set against them just kinda... sucks. when i learned Spines voted for the ophidians, i was shocked. i was even more shocked when Bloodloch's ruling council did the same. it felt like a slap in the face, and i genuinely didn't know what to do. i was painted into a corner. i ultimately decided that the only way i could proceed was to basically not participate. yeah, you might catch me running missions for the imps every so often during the ever-dwindling time i spend in game, but vyx is respecting the city's wishes by neither continuing any public opposition nor doing anything to directly harm the ophidians. lemme tell you, those exterminate missions take forever to complete if you're only attacking mitrine lol.

    i want to be clear, i guess, that i'm not meaning to throw "a unicorns fit" as one other player so eloquently accused. the issue isn't that i didn't get my way so much as that all my effort and involvement was swatted to the side because of some clumsy RP from admin. vyx took a definite hit, and so between having my deep participation penalized and the also apparently-admin-RP-driven(-whether-or-not-intended) increased hostility/general churlishness of spirit players/characters towards me, i just feel crap crap crap crap crap crap about aetolia. i went from being excited and full of ideas to just... not wanting to bother at all. one player probably doesn't matter that much - especially one who hasn't been around all that long and isn't a reliable source of $$$ - but i'm having a hard time recovering. i've tried to make the best of things, refocus on guild/order, etc., but i just keep getting suckerpunched. i'm left wondering why i've invested so much time and energy into a game that's punishing me for doing so.
    Indoran'i is back baby. It's good again. Awoouu (wolf Howl)
    An Atzob cultist says, "Is a shamatato as tasty as a potato?"
    (Tells): From afar, Mephistoles hisses harshly to you, "Hey baby, show me your ovipositor?"
    The mighty Jy'Barrak Golgotha opens his maw, catches the glowing spear in his many jagged teeth, and chomps down. The Divine spear breaks with a noise like thunder, shards toppling from the Emperor's jaws. "OM NOM NOM!" He declares, then spits the last of the ruined weapon from his lips.




    LeanaBorscin
  • LeanaLeana Member Posts: 225 ✭✭✭
    Razmael said:

    Alright, let me ask you guys then. And I'm asking genuinely here to know how to improve this for the future.

    Here's what Severn ended with, verbatim: Spinesreach, the decision is yours. Do not take My interjections as opposition to the Impire. My only desire is that you represent Spinesreach properly by talking to all sides and find out what benefits the city the most. I would be truly disappointed if the Impire was sided with purely because they're Imps.

    Honestly, I'm not sure how we could've made that any clearer. What would you guys have said differently?


    As for the Indorani/Cultist angle: This was unexpected for us. There's no record of any sort of interaction between Lorenzo/his cultists and the Indorani so we didn't expect that big of a blowback from it.

    Point one: Don't talk. Divine don't speak nearly enough for it to not be dissected ten times over. Focusing on the Imps negatively is enough to make the more creative people see them as bad. As Borscin said, dumb players. At this point, nothing was offered by any faction aside from their goals. The Imps are the faction to pick because they are Imps. They have a history and it's something to base a decision on. Violence, soul-stealing, ruthless. They're the stronger force and they've been through a war already. Yet, 'I would be truly disappointed' is in your statement. That's all most will hear.

    Or talk a lot more, more often. I prefer this.

    Point two: As Vyx said, we picked a side when it was clear to us the Ophidian were not -our bros- by the Ophidian dismissing our kindness and offers of help with hostility. The Indorani have alot more in common with the Cultists than the Ophidians, who were anti-undead deluded occultists from Ashtan.


    BorscinVyxsisTrikal
  • ZailaZaila Pacific TimeMember Posts: 547 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2018
    From the "outside looking in" perspective of what to take away from it-
    If one of the sides of the conflict is an established organisation (The Mitrine in this case) that already has a cool, deep culture, years of RP history with characters, and effective alliances with one tether of the game, either make that organisation more obviously "in the wrong" so their long - standing - allies have to really consider backing them harder, or make the other sides of the conflict equally meaningful to the other sides of the tether.

    So - for this example, instead of the imps, pick some other group that is sort of a "no-brainer" choice for shadow, make the Mitrine's position in the conflict less sympathetic, or pick a less culturally important group than the Mitrine.

    In general, just avoid imbalancing with pre-exisiting allegiances.
    VyxsisBorscinLeana
  • BorscinBorscin Member Posts: 46 ✭✭✭
    Kyna said:

    Most prominently, this is the feedback I will take under-wing in regards to the Divine voices; as Chakrasul's Celani, there was no intention to "herd" or pressure a response, however Chakrasul as a Goddess is a bit ambiguous and I can understand the misconception when Her closing line was "A gamble, Bloodloch. Regardless, it will amuse Me to see the outcome. You will be stronger either way - due to failure, or success." For that you have an apology from me.

    Ah, that was the line that made me throw out a big question mark in my head. The "Failure or success" made me think "You will fail with one side and succeed with the other". It seems like you were asked to do this, as all the other represented Gods were, and went with a more unique route and not just 'Idgaf do what you want but you can do either faction'. I honestly appreciate that, personally. And the apology as well since those are not always forthcoming.

    And I still say that we players are dumb and could have done more on our end to convince each other, vs just shrugging our shoulders and doing something cause it seems like a god told us to.

    I wrote a lot about what I've been referring to as the "fumbling" of the initiation of this event, but I personally don't want to put any blame anywhere. It's up to both players and volunteers to do things. But I did feel a need to air out what a lot of others have been saying (Especially since Emir was gonna say something similar but a lot more mean), and also because there has been this perceived domino effect that started in the beginning which has been difficult to deal with.

    In truth my real gripes about what have been going on so far should probably go in the Missions thread posted a day or so ago in Harpy's, but I've refrained because I am not necessarily the best at not going on tilt and raging about things.
    Razmael said:

    Alright, let me ask you guys then. And I'm asking genuinely here to know how to improve this for the future.

    Here's what Severn ended with, verbatim: Spinesreach, the decision is yours. Do not take My interjections as opposition to the Impire. My only desire is that you represent Spinesreach properly by talking to all sides and find out what benefits the city the most. I would be truly disappointed if the Impire was sided with purely because they're Imps.

    Honestly, I'm not sure how we could've made that any clearer. What would you guys have said differently?


    As for the Indorani/Cultist angle: This was unexpected for us. There's no record of any sort of interaction between Lorenzo/his cultists and the Indorani so we didn't expect that big of a blowback from it.

    This is definitely more clear of a message, yeah. But again man, players are dumb and will read into things in odd ways. Also to be totally honest "I would be truly disappointed if the Impire was sided with purely because they're Imps." may not have been necessary, even if it's true. Cause if that's why people want to support the Imps, then should you really stop them?

    And I'll go back and say I really don't think the interaction was that needed. We could tell both factions were viable, but had been pushed towards Imps due to the unforeseen Indorani/Cultist (they also had dogs btw, used to be kennels there I think) shtick. If the idea to go on CT was 'We didn't realize that was a thing so please consider the Ophidians' then I mean, we had kinda gone past it already. We can't always anticipate what you guys are going to do, and I doubt you guys will be able to anticipate what players will do. If something like this comes up it kind of seems like the best answer ends up being "Well unicorns, they went in this direction. Alright, time to roll with it."


    I keep writing novels, but Leana and Vyx have pretty much said what I did above. Leana's idea of more consistent interaction from divine would probably help too, yeah. Another alternative to a blanket CT message would have been more personal interaction with Order/Guild/City leaders. Aet is definitely a game were most people listen to some people, so if they get the message, the rest eventually do too. I guess leader interaction with Ophidians and also divine interaction is a lot, but hey, people like the personal touch.


    LeanaVyxsis
  • VyxsisVyxsis VyxsisMember Posts: 477 ✭✭✭✭
    Leana said:

    Point two: As Vyx said, we picked a side when it was clear to us the Ophidian were not -our bros- by the Ophidian dismissing our kindness and offers of help with hostility. The Indorani have alot more in common with the Cultists than the Ophidians, who were anti-undead deluded occultists from Ashtan.

    i just wanna be clear that vyx's reasoning for turning against the ophidians was relatively complex. if you ever catch her, you can ask for details, but it's not just because they rebuffed an effort at bridge-building.
    Indoran'i is back baby. It's good again. Awoouu (wolf Howl)
    An Atzob cultist says, "Is a shamatato as tasty as a potato?"
    (Tells): From afar, Mephistoles hisses harshly to you, "Hey baby, show me your ovipositor?"
    The mighty Jy'Barrak Golgotha opens his maw, catches the glowing spear in his many jagged teeth, and chomps down. The Divine spear breaks with a noise like thunder, shards toppling from the Emperor's jaws. "OM NOM NOM!" He declares, then spits the last of the ruined weapon from his lips.




  • VyxsisVyxsis VyxsisMember Posts: 477 ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2018
    Borscin said:

    And I still say that we players are dumb and could have done more on our end to convince each other, vs just shrugging our shoulders and doing something cause it seems like a god told us to.

    i mean, this is what vyx did. she made arguments - as well as trying to leverage her little power. the results................................ have sucked.

    EDIT: alright alright, i'm not really adding anything at this point. i'm just super duper discouraged, and it's easy for me to keep pouring from my sad bucket.
    Indoran'i is back baby. It's good again. Awoouu (wolf Howl)
    An Atzob cultist says, "Is a shamatato as tasty as a potato?"
    (Tells): From afar, Mephistoles hisses harshly to you, "Hey baby, show me your ovipositor?"
    The mighty Jy'Barrak Golgotha opens his maw, catches the glowing spear in his many jagged teeth, and chomps down. The Divine spear breaks with a noise like thunder, shards toppling from the Emperor's jaws. "OM NOM NOM!" He declares, then spits the last of the ruined weapon from his lips.




    Leana
  • LeanaLeana Member Posts: 225 ✭✭✭
    edited July 2018
    I'm off to bed. The reason is complex, I didn't want to give too many details OOC. Just the impression.

    I'm thankful to be able to vent all this out and not be shot down right away. I'm trying not to come off hostile or accusatory but there are touches of it and I'm sorry.

    I really appreciate what @Razmael and @Kyna do to keep Aetolia going. I secretly envy everyone in Chak's order while Lea is so adamantly anti-Chak.

    This thread helped me work out some of the 'meh' I felt and maybe I'll come to a decision on how to proceed. I'm being driven more by fear of missing out on how this whole thing will evolve than anything. My/Lea's thoughts are: "If I don't back the Ophidians I'm going to miss out, but if I don't back the Imps, I'm going to miss out on other stuff and be a traitor to my guild and waifu."

    Edit: Borscin's 'They had Dogs too' comment had me in tears. I remember the Canines too. The rock was the first place I ever hunted. I have a lot of memories from it.


    Vyxsis
  • RazmaelRazmael Member, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 1,367 admin
    edited July 2018
    Borscin said:


    This is definitely more clear of a message, yeah. But again man, players are dumb and will read into things in odd ways. Also to be totally honest "I would be truly disappointed if the Impire was sided with purely because they're Imps." may not have been necessary, even if it's true. Cause if that's why people want to support the Imps, then should you really stop them?


    I'm going to take everything else said under advisement and not address it, but I do specifically want to nitpick this (sorry!). The reason that was said is because Severn is talking to Spinesreach, a city whose RP is -meant- to be the city that always does what is in its best interest, not caring about means. There was a lot of Imp racial pride/support (it wasn't the only reason for sure, but definitely a large part) going into the initial reasoning for Spinesreach supporting the Impire. A patron is meant to intervene when they feel a city is going off its intended RP - in this case emotions and not logic being the reason Spinesreach was pushing Impire. That's not to say I don't get your point about why it could've been taken as an anti-Impire stance mind you. Just wanted to explain the reasoning behind it.
    LeanaKoda
  • MimoteshMimotesh Member Posts: 30 ✭✭
    As someone waking during the "wrong" hours of the day, I never saw or even heard about any Divine talking about which side to pick. I did, however, hear a lot of people talking to city leadership, who had talked to both Imps and Ophidians, and then talked to each other, discussing how to handle things and then had an honest vote. The vote came out incredibly close, iirc. So I really don't it mattered all that much in the end.
  • BorscinBorscin Member Posts: 46 ✭✭✭
    Razmael said:

    Borscin said:


    This is definitely more clear of a message, yeah. But again man, players are dumb and will read into things in odd ways. Also to be totally honest "I would be truly disappointed if the Impire was sided with purely because they're Imps." may not have been necessary, even if it's true. Cause if that's why people want to support the Imps, then should you really stop them?


    I'm going to take everything else said under advisement and not address it, but I do specifically want to nitpick this (sorry!). The reason that was said is because Severn is talking to Spinesreach, a city whose RP is -meant- to be the city that always does what is in its best interest, not caring about means. There was a lot of Imp racial pride/support (it wasn't the only reason for sure, but definitely a large part) going into the initial reasoning for Spinesreach supporting the Impire. A patron is meant to intervene when they feel a city is going off its intended RP - in this case emotions and not logic being the reason Spinesreach was pushing Impire. That's not to say I don't get your point about why it could've been taken as an anti-Impire stance mind you. Just wanted to explain the reasoning behind it.
    Yeah that definitely makes a lot more sense then, suggesting logic over emotions. I am def not caught up on RP everywhere and definitely not Spinesreach because unicorns Spinesreach (jk that's just a Borscin thing sometimes). And I do not mind nitpicking, I am a sucker for details.
    Vyxsis said:

    Borscin said:

    And I still say that we players are dumb and could have done more on our end to convince each other, vs just shrugging our shoulders and doing something cause it seems like a god told us to.

    i mean, this is what vyx did. she made arguments - as well as trying to leverage her little power. the results................................ have sucked.

    EDIT: alright alright, i'm not really adding anything at this point. i'm just super duper discouraged, and it's easy for me to keep pouring from my sad bucket.
    Yeah, I wasn't really around for a lot of what happened initially. But it is very common to try and push and suggest and have your voice heard just to be ignored or dismissed. It is a very Aet thing to have a small number of voices heard at times. Sometimes you gotta power through or step back, or try and go with it and adjust yourself and your character to what gets decided.

    A very long time ago I may have been in a similar position as you, were my ideas and suggestions were ignored or dismissed in Enorian (I was also like 12(16) so they may have been dumb). I eventually got frustrated and fed up, and 1 side hop and 12 million gold later, it's been Infernal4lyfe. I took a backseat and then eventually ended up being a somewhat prominent BL player.

    I'm uh, definitely not suggesting you take the same course of action, but I think breaking into power circles among players can be a pain.

    None of this may actually help you feel better or anything, but sometimes unicorns goes down and there is only so much you can do.

    But like your edit said this thread is technically about the factions announce which I am not sure if it is about anymore.
    Xenia
  • EowynEowyn SomewhereMember Posts: 106 ✭✭✭
    I'm going to chime in from the Enorian side of things, since Duiran has made their own comments and whatnot.

    1. We started out supporting Ophidians in a way, at least a few citizens did, but that was before Mitrine were heavily involved. Many, many people were just outright wary of the monolith being.
    2. Gods questioned this, pointing out that it could be some ancient being (like Albedos without saying it).
    3. Discussions were had to defend the Mitrine by a few, in case the Ophidians decided to act. Note, I still hadn't been involved in anything up until this point, but I had lots of news posts and stuff to go by.
    4. Then the Ophidians came. We sided with them loosely, so long as the Mitrine were not harmed. This would have gone differently if we could have convinced the Ophidians to be more loose with the Mitrine, to show they really wanted to change from their past, but that RP never got to come through. (Not saying i'm not trying to still sometimes poke an Ophidian to discuss it tho)
    5. Then, Eowyn went to Mitrine to figure out what the monolith stuff is. I still have the log, apparently, in case anyone was curious. https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/C13zPEaN
    6. When it boiled down to it, when the Ophidians went to harm the Mitrine in the monolith event, we had to support them. We made our agreement, we made it known, and we acted upon it. Originally we had just planned to push the Ophidians back, give the Mitrine more time, but you know - Imps. So Imps are not supported by Enorian at all at this point because they senselessly murdered so many people with a bomb. Life matters, etc, etc.

    Anyways, terrible summary probably, but it was not an easy choice for our org. It had many twists and turns and, with the way that Eno leadership is right now, definitely was no guaratnee that they'd side with the Mitrine just because they were the Mitrine. Many people -wanted- it that way, but we definitely did our due diligence to not just jump to the 'obvious' choice.
    Fezzix
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