The Producer's Dilemma



  • TenshyoTenshyo Member Posts: 382 ✭✭✭
    edited March 8
    I am going to tangent a bit here, in regards to Spy RP.

    Let's consider the facts of the mechanical side of things for it, shall we?

    There exists artifacts and relics that A) Hide you from bell tattoo entirely, thusly mitigating ANY CHANCE of being caught whilst standing in the room phased. Zealot and Luminary can no longer EVOKE ILLUMINATION the room and get a warning Phased people are there. (That is two checks rendered moot, let's proceed).

    So with Bell Tattoo and Illumination nixed from checks and balances, that leaves Devotion Truth (which is a shot in the dark, let's be honest unless you have bracer and just KNOW). Telepathy can no longer use Sapience to watch things of anyone suspected of being a spy. (thanks to abuse in using it to capture parry lines. Another check rendered moot, RP situations be damned).

    There could also be a Ascendril/Sciomancer skill - Would need verification on that from one of those sorts. I ain't no mage.

    SCENT? Good luck. With the sheer amount of, again, artifacts and relics to entirely negate SCENT (or any area checks!) even without Phasing, you'll be hard pressed to catch someone. Same goes for the sheer amount of skills that hide movement. I don't know many folks who want to keep Alertness up all day every day.

    Then we get into more of the same with A) Artifacts/Relics exists to see through doors. Skills/Arti/Relics exist to listen to adjacent rooms. Combine this with the above things, and you have yourself a spy who, mechanically, has very very little chance of being discovered.

    Will you catch a Syssin or a Spy mechanically? Probably not if they've played longer than a month and aren't completely new to the game.

    Now let's talk about the RP part of 'Spy RP'

    Going to quote here:
    Shachalai said:

    Text lacks a clear and consistent means of denoting emphasis, tone, pitch, and micropauses.

    Unlike real life behavior, this game is not only missing reliable means of communicating these things, but a character's behavior is subject to more premeditation and deliberation than someone just spontaneously acting in real life. You can control for a lot of factors that you can't in real life.

    Writing style, word choice, grammar, emphasis - these are all subjective things, and by nature of the fact that language is an imprecise tool, the same ideas and the same words will communicate very different impressions to different people.

    Essentially, you're just asking us to guess, and if we guess wrong, we lose all our commodities.

    That's somehow even worse than the contradiction you initially presented.

    See also, the Toz post you've consistently failed to engage with:

    Toz said:

    [Spy RP] cannot be detected save through shortcomings of the person doing it, there is no money trail tying them back to Russia, you can't go through their mail and look for key words - so long as they keep to tells, or just don't talk about it at all after being sent out, it's really just a matter of playing the waiting game and waiting for things to hit.

    These things are absolutely, positively, correct. While, yes, SOME people are just plain bad at playing the 'spy' card, fact is... a lot of people are pretty good at it (As clearly this whole debacle would point out).

    Also take for example: Person.. S we'll say S for Spy.. Person S joins City A. They have no real interaction with City A outside of lessers and maybe a raid here or there. City A doesn't exactly have people that commonly interact with Person S.

    So, Person S decides to 'change for the good' and moves to City A. City A greets them and welcomes them on good spirits and high hopes for this persons future. Person S, having again no real ties or knowing City A has no real information, is free and clear to 'talk' how they want. Because no one will know the difference.

    Person S then just bides their time, waiting for the 'opportune' time to hit their mark.

    During this waiting time, no one is going to logically or necessary suspect Person S of malicious intent. Because there was none to go off of.

    (As this scenario is obviously what played out)

    Now, of course one can argue "Well then that's City A's problem for not interacting with them!"
    Which is a fair argument, and I'll give you that much. However... City A is tending to their own well beings, interacting with their citizenry, and what other interactions the citizenry may do.

    Does the citizenry interact with Person S? Maybe. Would they feel obligated to report EVERY SINGLE suspicion to City A that they ever had through hypothetical interactions? Absolutely not. - Why? You cry wolf enough at a city leader and it's not correct, they stop listening to your cries.

    Now let's step back here, let's rewrite the scenario on IF City A and Person S have had interaction or grievances in the past.

    /record scratch noise here/

    Person S decides to 'change for the good' and moves to City A. City A knows of Person S's previous interactions and problems, but still welcomes them with good spirits and high hopes for that Person.

    Though, with knowing more of Person S, City A sets out a... proverbial neighborhood watch on Person S. Obviously Person S is going to figure out they're being watched. Person S then has two options at this point: Follow the 'rules' of the city and avert any misgivings and distrust OR ignore the watch and proceed about how they normally would be (As none would suspect the wiser)

    With either of this options, Person S can still easily and readily bide time. But... what does Time give them in spades? Information. What does time give City A of Person S? Correct, information.

    Though the information Person S gives City A will, of course, be likely false and incorrect. City A has options of, now: Entirely disbelief everything Person S has said and done whilst being a citizen OR continue to have good faith and trust in what they say?

    Either way, Person S wins unless Person S ENTIRELY and ROYALLY screws their own pooch by essentially just shouting "HEY LOOK I'M A SPY!" and walking away.

  • ShachalaiShachalai Member Posts: 96 ✭✭✭
    @Tenshyo - mages have Revelation. After a short delay, a small mana expenditure, and a couple of cheap-as-free crystals, you have the ability to produce a free eye sigil effect in that room, via a tone strike, for as long as the vibe's up.

    It's pretty gnarly.
  • TenshyoTenshyo Member Posts: 382 ✭✭✭
    @Shachalai Thank you

  • RasaniRasani Member Posts: 160 ✭✭✭
    @Xenia Oh for sure, but as you and I both know, this was covert as all get out. Rasani tried to quietly keep Xenia from being implicated in anything, which includes telling the Gods it was under control. For all I could tell, Xenia and her crew were the only ones working on it, and I was honestly expecting to hear that you'd been found out before anything got done. It's amazing you got done what you did.

    That said? I fully expected something would go wrong. Either you'd be punished, or, as it happened, we couldn't get everything back, what have you. All I know is I didn't reach out to the Gods, and it sounds like nobody did.
  • NahuaqueNahuaque Member Posts: 23 ✭✭
    edited March 9
    Toz said:

    1. So, to start, I object to the notion that a 'large amount of work' went into this. Only three Syssin, by their own admission, even were aware this was happening. Spy RP is, by and large, terrible...

    2. What does the other side risk? Oh boy. Guard dismissal, commodity theft, gold heist, credit theft, RP damaged, raids from subdivision housing, etc. etc...There are no 'win' conditions, no point in time at which a mole can be discovered by mortals (short of appallingly sloppy play, like sending a letter to the wrong person), and there is no point at which they have to go back home having 'failed'...So what we have, at the crux of this issue, is an incredibly unfair and lopsided scenario...

    3. ...They were then robbed far beyond what was reasonable or appropriate....

    4. There are two very important things here. The first is that Aetolians as a whole are unwilling to lose...In engaging in this conflict, they did not engage in good faith because there was no way they could lose...This is especially vile to me because, as a good few of you know, I also play Cole. Which means I logged in every day to RP with the person in question, traded letters, and invested time ensuring they had a good time while they played...

    5. This brings me to my second point. There was a scorn for the investment that characters represent present in how these people behaved...See my previous point about spy RP being a 'matter of time' - at no point is it ever truly safe to take the restrictions off of a convert...

    6. ...the admin-imposed redemption arc of Enorian makes them especially vulnerable to this...

    7. Without OOC trust of one another, there cannot be RP loss. Only mechanical loss...

    @Shachalai You seem to be extremely passionate about @Toz's post and heck, I might as well be game. So lets get out the scalpel and dissect this beast. Above is an abridged version of the epic length post, but I think these are the portions that are most worth addressing. Feel free to disagree.

    1. A large amount of work did not go into this and Spy RP is terrible - I think simply from a time investment we can fairly say that a large amount of work went into this. Spy RP is not terrible in my view. Spy RP is difficult and realistic spy RP is extremely difficult. I hold a similar view to @Kalak, and that signs of betrayal can often be spotted even if they are not intended to be there. Nothing wrong with Spy RP and work clearly went into this. This was a pretty amazing long con.

    2. This was unfair - An undiscovered spy always has advantage. Period. Think of it in DnD terms. The hidden rogue has advantage. You get that juicy sneak attack. The strike that they don't see coming. When you're fighting against a spy you're working at a disadvantage. So it's unfair, but why does that matter? The game doesn't have to be fair in all aspects. A fight between a level 80 dual virtuoso character vs an omni-trans Idreth is unfair. But unfairness is not inherently bad in this context. This is not a real world scenario and ethics of real life do not directly translate. Even if this is true (and I disagree with that) it is an issue of mechanics and not behavior.

    3. The amount stolen was unreasonable - Agreed. This is a mechanical issue and was fixed by @Tiur.

    4. Aetolians are unwilling to lose/feelings were hurt - Agree with the first part. We have a coddled player base that feels entitled to victory. Loss is anathema to them. They would rather take their toys and go home. We have some serious problems with the behavior of a significant amount of our player base, or at least the most visible portion. SEE: This thread and the previous thread.

    5. This act represents scorn for other players/matter of time - I feel Toz just asserted this without backing it up. Why is this scornful? Because it may have negative IC consequences for un-involved parties? Matter of time also seems to be a specious claim. This could have gone a lot of ways and nothing predestined that things would go as they did. I feel it's fair to reject this part outright.

    6. An admin imposed path to redemption - The admin can say you're doing redemption but you don't have to follow an easy path. You can be pretty brutal. Admin said redemption, but they did not say redemption is easy or pretty. SEE: Religious penance over recorded history.

    7. Without OOC trust there cannot be IC loss - I reject this entirely. Why should I have to have an OOC relationship with anyone for this? I don't have to know you or anything about who you are as a person to RP with you in a satisfying way. That's the POINT. We as people are not the CHARACTERS that we portray.

    To conclude, see the bolded portions for what I think are the most important points.

    EDIT: A little more conclusion.

    What I agree with - (3 & 4) The scale of the theft was not good and should not have been possible, Aetolians are bad at accepting loss or dissenting opions, people's feelings were hurt.

    What I disagree with - (1-2 & 5-7) Everything else.
  • AnteheAntehe Member, Immortal Posts: 452 Immortal
    edited March 9
    Alright kids. At this point, the cases have been made for people in between, and the 'sides' are not going to agree. Let's progress this a bit. Brainstorm some concrete ideas for conflict systems, types of engagements or counter-play you feel would be engaging for both sides of the encounter.
  • NahuaqueNahuaque Member Posts: 23 ✭✭
    I think one of the easiest ways to make conflict matter is to give a meaningful PvP or even PvE death penalty. Experience penalties are frustrating because experience is time and when a game wastes my time that's not fun. So instead of wasting my time, up the difficulty. Give a stacking stat penalty of -1 or -2 to all stats and let it stack a few times. Have it last an hour to a day, whatever the admin feel is best.
  • EmirEmir Member Posts: 148 ✭✭✭
    Nahuaque said:
    I think one of the easiest ways to make conflict matter is to give a meaningful PvP or even PvE death penalty. Experience penalties are frustrating because experience is time and when a game wastes my time that's not fun. So instead of wasting my time, up the difficulty. Give a stacking stat penalty of -1 or -2 to all stats and let it stack a few times. Have it last an hour to a day, whatever the admin feel is best.
    That's very snowbally and honestly doesn't sound engaging at all. Fights could become a one and done type thing if you play them right. And while that is indeed a type of reward for the winning team I don't think that's what anyone would really want. 

    With experience penalties at least, you're still able to fight, and you can undo the damage later. People are always going to bash anyways, and honestly if it wasn't so bad back in the day then I don't see why it would be so bad now, especially with how quickly you can recoup what was lost  
    (Web): Toz says, "Emir's Express Evacuation and Existence Eradicator, Every Experience is Explosive - Experience the Entirety of your Existence!"
  • ZailaZaila Pacific TimeMember Posts: 350 ✭✭✭✭
    I came up with this super basic idea like a year ago - I realize it lacks in terms of PvP stuff and totally doesn't solve the problem of 'death is meaningless', but anyway - here was my idea!

    I think there's still some merit to it in a general sense, but it'd need some actual rewards and detriments that players would find meaningful both OOC and IC
  • IraeIrae Six feet under.Member Posts: 73 ✭✭✭
    edited March 9
    My second and final thoughts about this (this isn't really addressed to anyone):

    I honestly don't think it's just about engagement systems, it's about how people playing this game don't take others into consideration with their actions. Sure, unfairness can be a part of a game! I don't think that anyone is arguing against that. But such massive disregard and a screw-all-consequences-for-the-other-side perspective actually affects the players who are at the receiving end.

    We simply don't have the size of community that Achaea does and we never will. Players who stick with our game eventually become influential people for the next generation of Aetolians. Same with Achaea but they have much more people to spare if some people choose to leave. We simply don't, once again. When influential and powerful people leave due to things like this, activity stalls, newbies are left wondering and essentially the game loses conflict and life.

    I would also like to say that this also really puts into perspectives the EXPECTATIONS that players have for each other. I would like to think that people would be more considerate of their fellow gamer. There's a reason why many people stick with Aetolia despite it's small population and that's due to the strength and relatively considerate, frankly NON-DOUCHEY nature of our community as opposed to Achaea where things are a bit more rough around the edges (not knocking them but it does come with the large population). This whole event has made many reconsider the niceties we afford each other. While sure they aren't warranted from time to time, don't you think some moderation in your actions is needed?

    That's pretty much everything on my mind.
  • SatomiSatomi Member Posts: 312 ✭✭✭
    If you want to be really crazy, you could throw Imperian's death stuff in. That'll make Death less meaningless (and probably far more annoying) but it's an option.

    What I mean by that is the whole having to collect coins through minigame events to buy passage out of the underworld.

  • MykellahMykellah EnorianMember Posts: 69 ✭✭✭
    @Satomi just so you know, Imperian removed that a long time ago. Not to say that this isn't something you can do, but someone's going to inevitably mention "thats not how death works in Imperian"

    I miss Dis :(
  • KalakKalak Member Posts: 252 ✭✭✭
    edited March 9
    Gotta throw some dice with Dillinger and find that mask which unleashes a horror upon the world just for a couple of coins to get back to the continent. There was even a quest there which would give an honor line. Sometimes I miss Imperian, that was my first MUD.

    Anyways as @Antehe says back to business:

    This is not anything original, might be even old. But something resembling a war system could be added:

    1. Sieges

    Initiated challenges with certain objectives (capture the flag, special PvE mobs and point gathering, holding/protecting a relic) in areas which will signify the dominance of a side. Now, these should not be Tether vs Tether battles but City vs City battles to spice things up. Currently there is no mechanic to pit "natural" allies against each other. Also sieges are declared and cannot be started immediately, so both sides have enough time to gather people and/or hire some muscle.

    Initiate costs can be covered with a mix of gold and PvE corpses/quests filling a resource called "Siege Effort" That will undoubtedly stimulate those who would like to support their city but does not wish to or cannot PvP.

    Winner of the siege will get an advantage while the losers may get a disadvantage or get nothing. It is a design decision to make that a zero-sum game or not.

    2. Village Capture

    Three control points upon certain villages where people can stand upon them to gather points for their cities. While it is basic, that gives people to get around and stand outside to show their dominance. Basically PvP on-demand. The reward for holding those places could vary from small commodity tithes over time to other advantages for the dominating forces. There is absolutely no cooldown to this.

    3. Shadow War

    Some places could have dynamic quests and quests to change some specifics for a siege. For example, doing something before a siege or committing some resources to a certain NPC you get reinforcements for the attacker side while the defender side can get traps/room effects etc.

    Shadow War especially could be a fit term for this kind of thing I think. Spy characters (or perhaps Spymaster can be an official Minister) can commit their resources to get operatives of varying levels (NPCs) with different outcomes for sieges or village capture or city advantages. Though maintaining a large network of assets can be taxing or not depending on your espionage style.

    Fallguy: This is the guy who takes the blame or distracts when someone attempts to uncover your plot. So the player or higher level operatives are not revealed. Cheaper expendable assets to protect your more expensive assets.

    Snitch: The operative who has a chance to report whether a certain quest/resources committed to a future siege or not.

    Hound: These mid-level operatives can find who is the perpetrator of a certain act. They can be misled depending on the fallguys.

    Softener: Installing local criminals or agents to soften your advance when the battle arrives. These operatives will provide additional point gain for village captures and certain sieges.

    Assassin: Moderately expensive asset which can be sprung upon a player when the time and place are right. Due to their secretive nature, it is harder to uncover them and they benefit massively from the Fallguy.

    Official: Does tithe of a City arrive in lesser quantities? Perhaps a promised reinforcement did not arrive during a siege? Maybe a friend in higher places gave you a nudge.

    Enforcer: More visible then official so less Fallguy protection but more ill-tempered. Powerful PvE mob which can engage an enemy spy player while they come to their turf to soften the place. They can occasionally have a gang associated but maintaining such an asset does not come cheap.

    Main aim of Shadow War is to give mechanical presence to the Espionage so people can actually affect other cities in subtler ways while not crippling them to the ground. Asset types can vary further with more thought into actual implementation. After all this is just a concept study.
    Post edited by Kalak on
  • AedenAeden MissouriMember Posts: 38
    edited March 9
    Satomi said:

    Just going to reiterate this again, guys.

    Regardless of what the Divine did. Regardless of who was online at the time. Regardless of how much of the leadership showed up. The comms were going to be returned.

    The only possible difference would have been the manner in which they were returned, and potentially how much of it was returned.

    Trust me. I tried delaying it a bit, but people were adamant. It's part of why I love their characters, and they were completely in character while making those decisions.

    As for Spy RP? Personally, I think it's more exciting to play the double-agent. I mean, if Satomi randomly joined Enorian, for example, well, she'd probably be more than welcome. If I were going to be a spy, I might poke at admins to maybe set up a thing where the city guards come to Rasani, or maybe one of the Heralds, or their Warden, and have them mention some shady business that Satomi is up to.. like.. leaving letters in dead drops (I'd even write out letters and drop them in discreet places throughout the city). Maybe I'd leave the city at specific times of the IG day looking furtive in front of the guards and such.

    You could even go so far as to let Enorian people know, OOC, that you are a spy and hope/trust that they won't abuse that knowledge in a meta-gamey fashion. Not everyone, of course, but the people who are most-likely to be suspicious, and least likely to ruin the RP.

    I mean, realistically, spies do a lot of shady-looking things on the regular unless they are in a deep-dive, no communication sort of thing.. and even then they establish networks.. Like asking the guards about their patrol rotations or some nonsense.

    Anyway, it comes down to how much you're willing to put yourself out there. Whether you mind losing a little bit, or you just want to win. etc. etc. There are ways to make being a spy valid and interesting, it just depends on how willing you are to potentially get caught and executed before being booted back to Spinesreach with nothing in hand.

    This would've been one of the -best- way to play that out and ic'ly only. Going so far as to offering to let anyone know ooc-EXCEPT for the divines though, of what they're doing will just only 99% of the time in my thinking that would just kill the rp suspense. In my experience of IRE and running several guilds in the history of playing Lusternia, you are 100 percent better off trusting ooc co-op with the Divines than the playerbase, because they can see things in perspectives that the playerbase can't, and I can sense that they would adjust and make the best decisions about this. Had they known-that is. Just me, but I can't go on the trust of ooc as I believe everyone will metagame and twist the rp plot to something more favorable for themselves when the turnout could more likely AND should rather turn out to go in either direction based and due upon the interaction that is -purely- rp. OOC business is just bad metagaming business in my thinking. Also yes, this would've made me grin from ear to ear(my poor dark heart lol)

    Lastly, I think for the most part, many players connect their ooc feelings to their ic players as a parent who's living their dreams through their child(probably a bad comparison, but its the first thing that came to mind) and I think that however you are feeling oocly, should not reflect or be lived through your ic character if that makes sense to anyone, as it makes sense to me, your ic character cannot be the real you, despite being the puppetmaster pulling the strings to your character.
  • SessizlikSessizlik Muffin Mage Member Posts: 455 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There are so many places in Aetolia that could be used in minor pvp AND rp events. I remember way, way back in the day when Arion's order, and anyone else on that side, who gathered amethysts (or emeralds) to build a chain to keep the gate on Mostyn closed. And the Spireans and Lochians tried to stop them, to unleash the beast behind the gates. That was so much fun, because if you wanted to do combat, you could fight off the enemy/fight those trying to make the chain, and if you didn't want to fight, you could help gather material.

    I realize these things take a lot of coding and planning from admins, but.. I'm not saying it has to be anything large, you know? And it doesn't have to be something that happens all the time, but every once in a while, toss in a small event that could involve anyone in the player base. It could be anything from helping someone to deliver a priced item or artifact from Kornar to Spinesreach, or to gather herbs to make a cure for that entire village that got ill.

    There are so many options for smaller events and if one of the admins who is more inclined towards RP, or perhaps even put a new Celani in charge of it, then it could be a good thing for the game, I think. People seem to love when there's big events going on, and even if it's not something world changing event that goes on for months, like the Kerrithrim, it could still be some fun bits here and there.

    Also, I am sure people would be able to submit loads and loads of ideas for little events, so all that needs to be done is a little bit of coding and some npc possession.
    Fine, yeah, I know it's not that easy, but I would love this!
  • MykellahMykellah EnorianMember Posts: 69 ✭✭✭
    I loved Ciem. I was sad to find out they removed it. As another example of this kind of thing.
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 1,944 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I imagine Ciem will come back eventually in some form, it was just really designed around old lore/guilds/etc and area redesigns made it weird.

  • TeaniTeani Evening Sky SwedenMember Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 9
    Sent my suggestion straight to @Tiur. Maybe some of it will be used.

  • SatomiSatomi Member Posts: 312 ✭✭✭
    If @Mariena's idea became a thing, I'd have a reason to offer a small bounty for comms sold to the city. It just depends on what the endgoal for comms is, cause right now everyone is working on a net loss (unless they just aren't using comms at the same level as Spines).

  • ShachalaiShachalai Member Posts: 96 ✭✭✭
    edited March 10
    If/when a war system emerges, one thing that I think the ylem system we have now has nailed is having periodic, discrete points of conflict with downtime in between. I think a war system could largely consist of conflicts over objectives in a similar way - periodic conflicts staged around the objective for some period of time, probably not more than a couple of days, to determine who comes out on top. Staging it like that, imo, ensure that players from all timezones get to contribute, they ensure that there's downtime, and if they're for stakes like territory or commodities, you want to ensure that you're getting the city's average effort, not some random spike where one side has over a dozen players and the other side just has a handful.
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 1,944 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Problem with Mariena's idea is anything grindable will be exploited into the ground by an overactive minority. 

  • ShachalaiShachalai Member Posts: 96 ✭✭✭
    Aishia said:

    Problem with Mariena's idea is anything grindable will be exploited into the ground by an overactive minority. 

    Potential synthesis of ideas that prevents abuse - you could only kill a particular mob for comms once per RL day?
  • ShaithShaith Member Posts: 1
    edited March 10
    Adding to this because, oh boy, @Shachalai and I had fun trying to hash this out.

    The idea is that there would be something for everyone to do (the pkers! the lowbies! the people who like grinding! the people who like doing management stuff I guess oh my gosh what is wrong with you!) in order to assist the war effort. The other main idea is that it would be a system of give and take - you can focus on the kind of pking, logistics, quests, resource gathering, etc. that is going to help your city gain ground, or you can focus on different aspects of those same categories but use it to try to mess up what rival cities are trying to do.

    Here is the example I was talking to Shachalai about:

    Say there is a contested territory. This territory gets popped full of Shadow soldiers and Spirit soldiers. A city like Enorian has a couple options on what they can do.

    A - Try to kill Shadow soldiers who, once killed, will repop like regular bashing mobs, but there will be fewer of them each time they are all killed
    B - Do quests to try to increase the number of Spirit-aligned soldiers that spawn
    C - PK and try to defend the Spirit-aligned soldiers that are in the area
    D - Allocate resources to support Spirit-aligned soldiers in the area and give them buffs, but not so many resources that you run out or can't defend other territories. I'm not actually sure this one is a good idea, but maybe the resources are all sorts of things like commodities, ylem, gold, and even curatives
    E - Try to do a combination of all of these things, and get the right mix of each compared to what Bloodloch is doing so that you secure the territory

    At the same time, Bloodloch would be trying to do all of these same things, but for the Shadow side. And maybe there are tasks that only members of certain guilds can do? Heck if I know.
  • OonaghOonagh Member Posts: 53 ✭✭✭
    I like how that sounds @Shaith and @Shachalai it has some RTS ...ideas behind it...non combatants can do supply line quests and help armor, or give supplies to build fortifications sort of thing... YES...its a way to utilise commodity, to defend an area, and have versatility in methods.

    I would also add that while soldiers are in an area, a way to utilise gold would be they are conscripted a daily cost much as our city guards are to work that area, this is great....I would participate in that, since all I do in conflict is transfix cause it doesnt really hurt people and Oonagh is a big chunky boy who isnt super quick.
    Oonagh has been slain by the might of the toxic atmosphere of Ulangi.
  • ShachalaiShachalai Member Posts: 96 ✭✭✭
    Additional thought re: spies - maybe the receiving city has to choose what its immigrant dossiers look like/what information is relevant, and once every X amount of time (not sure how fast it should be), they're allowed to make one change to the format, or to remove or add a valid reason someone might immigrate in. This dossier layout would only be accessible to - let's say for example - the ambassador and their aides. Only the ambassador is permitted to make these alterations.

    An example of how a dossier might look:

    NAME: (randomly generated; include some player surnames, this was funny last time; this part is trivial to fake by design) ORIGIN: (some area under the city's control; again, not too hard to fake this, but you might adjust according to the comms certain areas produce to make them a bit more/less eager to accept the spy) REASON FOR IMMIGRATION: (a predefined list; a city needs to set at least five, and could have a few more. One can be deleted or added per IG week) EXIT STAMP: (a short-desc style line of an area's exit stamp; each area under a city's control has one, and it can be changed once per IG season by the controlling city) ENTRY STAMP: (a short-desc style line of the city's entry stamp; can be changed once per IG season)

    This means there's a built-in way for the dossiers to slowly change, and for old information on what's in the dossiers to become outdated. Player spying - probably by trying to get a glimpse at a city's immigration booth - would be necessary to figure out what a reasonable dossier might look like, and in order to make attempts to infiltrate a city.

    Ambassadors would be able to decide whether immigration is disabled or enabled. Disabling it removes the ability to generate some comms, but enabling it means you're opening yourself up to outside espionage.
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