The Producer's Dilemma

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  • TeaniTeani Evening Sky SwedenMember Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have a few things I've been pondering, but first of all, I'm sorry if people feel like they wasted time and resources on making another player enjoy the game. That is never a good feeling, and I think that is what hurts the most in situations like these.

    On to my musings, and please correct me if I have any facts wrong.

    After the comms were stolen, the people of Enorian were outraged, understandably so, and they reached out to the other side in attempts to negotiate. From what I understand, the response to these attempts was essentially "No, not giving it back, ever."

    Why was this response taken at face value? In comparison, the multiple curses on a full 100 days, which would essentially cripple the entire organization for over three RL months, was only taken at face value by a very small number of people. Why is this? These are my own musings, and other might disagree, but hear me out:

    I believe the reason for the first one is that there have been orgthefts in the past by people who have not cared one wit about the consequences or other people involved, and so people's judgment is colored by this. "If they say so, they must mean it. Everyone else who stole this much has meant it, and they're unicorns, ergo these people are unicorns." Even though there are reasons behind such a way of thinking, this kind of argument is not a healthy one, and I believe it might have caused more harm than necessary in this situation.

    As for the second example, we are back at how people view previous actions such as these. Players know that there is little risk of this being an actual threat, and more of a "We'll fix it when you do as told. We're doing this to force negotiations". To be honest, this is what I meant by saying it takes time to bring people to the table. Maybe, just maybe, if the response from the Syssin had been taken as that of a recalcitrant enemy than a player who is out to ruin the game, things would have been a bit different. It's not something we will know now, but perhaps something that could at least be considered for the future.

    I understand that there was a lot of OOC communication going on behind the scenes, and that there were hateful messages sent almost straight off the bat. This is most likely because emotions were high, and it can sometimes be difficult to pace oneself when one feels monumentally screwed. This does not help anyone to get back on track when it comes to RP solutions, however. Did anyone check if they ought to take this at face value, before exploding OOCly about the unfairness of it all? And if someone did and received no response, consider the situation and take into account that there might have been a general overload of communication at that point, meaning some messages might have been set aside in favor of survival, explaining and trying to sort out IC matters. Perhaps there was a lot of stress in all corners. Not making excuses for anyone, just trying to picture the situation and realizing how much I tend to miss when there's a general overload in mass-character RP.

    Everything happened quite fast, from what I understand. Some people took it upon themselves to return the comms without letting others in on this development, making all other actions relatively moot. This includes, for example, allowing the city of Spinesreach as a whole to grasp the situation and weigh in (and let the city leader actually have a part in discussions), possibly force the Syssin to undo what they had done, finding other potential ways to make the Syssin repent through RP or raids (which have happened as retaliation anyway), and even Divine measures, like the curses that were meant to drive the Syssin to the negotiating table, since there was nothing to negotiate for anymore. Did the Divine not see this happening either? Is that why they still went ahead with the curses?

    Naturally, I also wonder if it was necessary to steal all the comms in order to make a point. Would the response have been similar (without the OOC anger and resentment that comes with orgtheft) if something like all the shields from the Templar shield wall had been stolen? Or if some extremely important Enorian artifact was taken instead? If so, then it is important that none of these options are available from a player's perspective, as they require Admin assistance. Should all conflicts have require Admin assistance? If not, then what is actually acceptable, and how can one start up a long-lasting conflict without the other side pulling in Admin help in order to secure a victory?

    As @Toz mentioned, too many people in this game are bent on winning, and never losing. I find it admirable, the way he went in to this, knowing that it would end up in a loss. I am just very sorry that the loss for him was more overwhelming than anticipated. At the very least, it feels like this has opened up discussions on how to improve certain things, both with proper counter measures for huge thefts, but also the need for conflict systems. I think I'll dig up my old suggestion on small-scale, organization-based conflict systems that was rejected in favor of more large-scale systems two years or so ago.



    SilenaVyxsis
  • RasaniRasani Member Posts: 160 ✭✭✭
    If you want the truth Teani? The honest the god truth? And I'm not trying to start stuff or be mean. I don't like being mean and even if I did, I don't have the ENERGY for it anymore.

    We took the "no you won't get them back" at face value because of the people who we knew were involved. People who, we as a side of the game, have really had nothing but bad, dare I say *toxic* interactions with. Because of who we KNEW was behind it, we took it at face value and began scrambling.

    I've often wondered why they didn't take something less crippling, but more POWERFUL to take. I can think of a lot of things that would've had the same anger response, maybe even MORE so, and longer lasting even. Sure, it might've required admin help, but since there are clearly admin who think there was excellent rp done here (Which I won't argue one way or another, I don't have the fight in me) they could've gotten some help. It would've been easy, would've made conflict and wouldn't have crippled an entire org.

    But, I know why they didn't go this route. I know because, well, it's just the latest in a long line of things that has lost me players. But I can only hope I can help my guild and city recover. It's my job to, so no matter how bummed I am? I'm gonna do it.
    IshinLeana
  • RasaniRasani Member Posts: 160 ✭✭✭
    Should also mention? If someone reached out to the Gods, I'm unaware of it. That's possible, because we don't have to tell each other everything, but from my standpoint? It looks like the Gods saw Spines unwilling to deal, and decided to even the balances a little bit. The increasing curses would've been a cool thing, sure, but why would they bother? Frankly, in any other sort of fantasy context, nobody would've batted an eye if each god Plagued the city. Biblical style, I suppose.
    Ishin
  • TeaniTeani Evening Sky SwedenMember Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Rasani said:

    If you want the truth Teani? The honest the god truth? And I'm not trying to start stuff or be mean. I don't like being mean and even if I did, I don't have the ENERGY for it anymore.

    No worries. :smile: I prefer the truth, it's best that way.
    Rasani said:


    We took the "no you won't get them back" at face value because of the people who we knew were involved. People who, we as a side of the game, have really had nothing but bad, dare I say *toxic* interactions with. Because of who we KNEW was behind it, we took it at face value and began scrambling.

    This honestly makes me sad, as I've had plenty of good, non-toxic interactions with them. True, I have also had some angry RP with them due to story development and such. Hopefully there is a way to mend things, though. I don't want all your energy to be lost.
    Rasani said:


    I've often wondered why they didn't take something less crippling, but more POWERFUL to take. I can think of a lot of things that would've had the same anger response, maybe even MORE so, and longer lasting even. Sure, it might've required admin help, but since there are clearly admin who think there was excellent rp done here (Which I won't argue one way or another, I don't have the fight in me) they could've gotten some help. It would've been easy, would've made conflict and wouldn't have crippled an entire org.

    As I asked, I wonder if all good conflict has to be related to Admin. It would be good, I think, if it were possible to have options. Personally, I don't think it's a good thing to have to rely on Admin for help in all things. I'm hoping these discussions will open up for more options.
    Rasani said:


    But, I know why they didn't go this route. I know because, well, it's just the latest in a long line of things that has lost me players. But I can only hope I can help my guild and city recover. It's my job to, so no matter how bummed I am? I'm gonna do it.

    Just be mindful so that you don't burn yourself out. Find small things to enjoy as well, while building things up.



    Nahuaque
  • SilenaSilena Member, Immortal Posts: 95 Immortal
    Rasani said:

    Should also mention? If someone reached out to the Gods, I'm unaware of it. That's possible, because we don't have to tell each other everything, but from my standpoint? It looks like the Gods saw Spines unwilling to deal, and decided to even the balances a little bit. The increasing curses would've been a cool thing, sure, but why would they bother? Frankly, in any other sort of fantasy context, nobody would've batted an eye if each god Plagued the city. Biblical style, I suppose.

    No one reached out to the IC Enorian Gods, as far as I'm aware. If it even happened, it was not a factor. Which is not to mean that it wasn't in-character for them to do so, only that the claim of players asking for Divine intervention is inaccurate. @Teani, I like that you're getting back to thinking of solutions to the lack of conflict options, but I think you're not considering the reason why people would assume the theft would not be negotiated: We lack conflict options to force the issue. On the other hand, removing a God's curse often just involves complaining/apologizing to the God in question, or taking it up with the paid admin. If you know how to resolve one issue but not another, you're likely to assume the latter isn't going to happen. Or at least, that you have no means of influencing it.

    As a lesser note, as I recall the only reason Ethne "went first" was because she was the first one to log in after it happened. Not everything has deeply significant meaning, either IC or OOCly.
  • SessizlikSessizlik Muffin Mage Member Posts: 455 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think the truest thing said thoughout all these posts is the fact that noone can detect spy rp, unless the players playing the spies make obvious mistakes. Saying that "she was married to the Syssin GM", "she is known to be a true Syssin" and "everyone should've suspected because of that" is just not true. People switch sides all the time and we CANNOT deny them entrance, because that could very well turn people away from the guild.

    Most of the time, cities of both Shadow and Spirit are open to side-hoppers, because most people have hopped at some point of their Aetolian career. As was stated, most of our most loved characters have side-hopped. I've side-hopped more than I would like to admit, because at times, I just stagnate in my rp and I need to rejuvinate it. It's a way for me to bring the fun back into the game. To do new things and meet new people. So we CANNOT deny side-hoppers entrance into cities.

    Very often, these side-hoppers have immense knowledge about loads of things. That means they will become aides to ministries, or even Ministers, in a short amount of time, if they are well liked. It has happened before, it's not uncommon. I would much rather prefer younger chars be given a chance, but hey, I don't run cities.

    The point is, though, that this game is, most often, very welcoming to people wanting to switch sides and that is a GOOD thing. Atarah abused that. She abused it and turned it into something ugly. After the last time Fezzix and gang went on a thieving spree, I had her leave Spinesreach, because I hate that sort of rp. I eventually went back without joining another city and I really thought that it was a one time thing, because of the outcry at the time that happened. And now, this happened. I had no other choice than to instantly leave and let me tell you...

    I was sure Sessi wouldn't be let back into Enorian because of what happened. Thankfully.. She was allowed to join. That, to me, shows that despite their spirit being broken, they are still welcoming, though very carefully so. I would love to have Sessi get involved in things in Enorian right now, but I won't even ask to be involved, because I know the city is hurting and their trust in people is hurting. So I have to put a damper on my rp for now and stay in the low, until I feel I can start being more active again, without having to worry about their trust.

    So no matter if it is not "breaking the rules" or "things were given back", the trust was broken and that can take ages to rebuild. I'm not a combatant myself, but I never want to see RP hurt people like this because there's no way to ignite conflict between organizations. I have full trust in Tiur to make that happen, even if it might take some time.
    image
    Shachalai
  • TeaniTeani Evening Sky SwedenMember Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Silena said:

    @Teani, I like that you're getting back to thinking of solutions to the lack of conflict options, but I think you're not considering the reason why people would assume the theft would not be negotiated: We lack conflict options to force the issue.

    On the other hand, removing a God's curse often just involves complaining/apologizing to the God in question, or taking it up with the paid admin. If you know how to resolve one issue but not another, you're likely to assume the latter isn't going to happen. Or at least, that you have no means of influencing it.

    Whether the reason for taking it at face value is what I mentioned, or what you mention above, I still believe it would have been a good idea to give it some more time to see what happens/talk/whatever, before exploding, sneaking comms back, sending nasty OOC messages, and whatnot.

    Don't misunderstand me, I can understand why people were upset.



  • AedenAeden MissouriMember Posts: 38
    I was disheartened to learn that they got their commodities back, to which in my thinking that this will be just another usual boring day in the neighborhood. Granted, I -do- understand the anger and the hurt it caused and much worse beyond the scope of feelings etc, but come on-try to enjoy internal conflict, keep sparking that flame of mistrust and be less boring with the usual blah blah blah convos. Ylem/leyline system here is not all that interesting to trump what happened. So, apart from the feels it caused, I totally applaud this, as this was a welcoming turn of events for once and I feel upset for having to have missed the entirety of this and hearing about it just today. That's just my personal opinion is all.
    NahuaqueKalakMykellah
  • KalakKalak Member Posts: 252 ✭✭✭
    edited March 8
    Istela said:

    @Kalak dude stop being a chode and go suck a fart out of something else. I can see nothing but you being an ignorant tool just to incite more outrage and bullcrap. Go away. Seriously. Leave. I have no idea why no one has even banned you from the forums. You prove to me as the player not only are you a tool ic but one oocly as well.

    Lets not even get in to the umpteen novices you've killed icly and then cried truce for when the whole syssin guild was after you. Then breaking our kindness to once more do the same thing until you got your butt handed to you. Logic fails you, go eat a thesaurus.

    Keep strong you guys

    Please just please refrain from spreading misinformation. Kalak has killed anyone who is not a novice and not @Fezzix . I cannot clear the name of the character OOCly since I am not involved in OOC societies or Discord groups at all. So I am saying this again. I do not kill novices, so stop with your spread of misinformation.

    Now if I must return back to the topic of "inevitability of theft"....that falsely assumes that the person behind a potential theft will almost always successfully complete his/her task without any barrier. But in between an induction and the theft:

    -The player can have a change of heart.
    -RP circumstances can lead to an outcome which ends up with the character not committing the crime.
    -The spying character can be suspected and his/her scheme can be uncovered.
    -Someone metagames about the spying character and prevents the occurrence. (Lame but that can happen)
    -The player behind the thieving character can face RL challenges and find no more time to play.
    -The suspected character would be directed to the "safer" positions in the city.
    -Player with spying motives actually can be open to RP when faced with a well-thought interrogation.

    Examples could go on and on. So, unless the person has a perfect ironwill and deep motive to wait it out for ages to commit that act....there are many possibilities which may occur. So it is NOT inevitable. I do not think @Atarah OOCly possesses that kind of malicious patience to screw over you guys inevitably. Personally, I would like to view some Enorianites as inquisitive, interrogating and accomplished witch-hunters who can be ruthless and pragmatic in their actions.
    OonaghNahuaque
  • ShachalaiShachalai Member Posts: 96 ✭✭✭
    Kalak said:



    Now if I must return back to the topic of "inevitability of theft"....that falsely assumes that the person behind a potential theft will almost always successfully complete his/her task without any barrier. But in between an induction and the theft:

    -The player can have a change of heart.
    -RP circumstances can lead to an outcome which ends up with the character not committing the crime.
    -The spying character can be suspected and his/her scheme can be uncovered.
    -Someone metagames about the spying character and prevents the occurrence. (Lame but that can happen)
    -The player behind the thieving character can face RL challenges and find no more time to play.
    -The suspected character would be directed to the "safer" positions in the city.
    -Player with spying motives actually can be open to RP when faced with a well-thought interrogation.

    Examples could go on and on. So, unless the person has a perfect ironwill and deep motive to wait it out for ages to commit that act....there are many possibilities which may occur. So it is NOT inevitable. I do not think @Atarah OOCly possesses that kind of malicious patience to screw over you guys inevitably. Personally, I would like to view some Enorianites as inquisitive, interrogating and accomplished witch-hunters who can be ruthless and pragmatic in their actions.

    Quoting myself:
    Shachalai said:

    In order for the concepts of winning and losing to make sense, there has to be a reasonable playing field and a reasonable chance for both sides. None of that was present here. It was a skewed playing field, offering every possible advantage to the Syssin - it was such a huge advantage, in fact, that we didn't even realize we were playing an espionage game until Atarah had already won.

    Quoting Toz:
    Toz said:

    This brings me to my second point. There was a scorn for the investment that characters represent present in how these people behaved. Organizations are flexible because this is a game world, and I myself had spent a good bit of money when I made Toz. In fact, Toz started as a Templar. Had Spinesreach treated me and Moirean like the Syssin involved seem to want Enorian to treat newcomers, I would not have continued playing. I would have logged out and gone to play other games where I was able to advance, and not treated with paranoia.

  • KalakKalak Member Posts: 252 ✭✭✭
    @Shachalai It was an even ground. It provided every defensive advantage and red flags for you not to put @Atarah in a sensitive ministry or position. So if you did not realize you were playing an espionage game until the perpetrator has won means...the espionage was actually successful. If you realized that you were playing an espionage game, then the espionage would not be successful. That is pretty simple logic as far as it goes. Maybe this can be a chance for working on IC counter-intelligence RP of your organizations instead of relying on OOC goodwill.

    You do not have to treat people who are hopping organizations as second class citizens or members, just you can take additional steps on the side of caution without making them feel as unwelcome. That is my point.
    NahuaqueSessizlikMykellahAeden
  • ShachalaiShachalai Member Posts: 96 ✭✭✭
    Kalak said:

    @Shachalai It was an even ground. It provided every defensive advantage and red flags for you not to put @Atarah in a sensitive ministry or position. So if you did not realize you were playing an espionage game until the perpetrator has won means...the espionage was actually successful. If you realized that you were playing an espionage game, then the espionage would not be successful. That is pretty simple logic as far as it goes. Maybe this can be a chance for working on IC counter-intelligence RP of your organizations instead of relying on OOC goodwill.

    You do not have to treat people who are hopping organizations as second class citizens or members, just you can take additional steps on the side of caution without making them feel as unwelcome. That is my point.

    Toz said:

    So on the one hand, we have a zero risk 'operation' occurring with the express intention of achieving victory at all costs. ... What does the other side risk? Oh boy. Guard dismissal, commodity theft, gold heist, credit theft, RP damaged, raids from subdivision housing, etc. etc. The possibilities are really just down to how creative (or uncreative) the person doing the spying feels like. There is no way to stop this outright, either. The 'defending' organization is forced to treat every single person who wants to come to their faction as a second class citizen...forever. There are no 'win' conditions, no point in time at which a mole can be discovered by mortals (short of appallingly sloppy play, like sending a letter to the wrong person), and there is no point at which they have to go back home having 'failed'. The defenders are playing an incredibly high-stakes game for which there is no winning move for them, loss is an inevitability, and there is no upside whatsoever. If someone is engaging in spy RP in your org, they decide how they present themselves via what they type into the game, control every tell perfectly tailored to whatever they like, and ultimately just have to wait out suspicions.

    NahuaqueSessizlikMykellah
  • KalakKalak Member Posts: 252 ✭✭✭
    @Shachalai Sorry but assuming there is zero risk is abyssmally wrong. If the person is found out, they will lose the trust of the other organization like forever. And they can even remain an enemy for a very long time or indefinitely. No one likes traitors. It should not be too hard to accept that Enorian failed the espionage game. Also the idea that people decide how they present themselves via what they type into the game, control every tell perfectly tailored to whatever they like...is acceptable when you are not good at reading through the words of people.

    Most of the time I can read through people's words on what they intend, but Kalak generally upholds the concept of "Trust once, but once only" So yes, there are times my character got screwed too. But that is because of a design decision rather then I can be manipulated. The words of people generally will betray their intentions. Failure to see indicators...eh...there is nothing can be done about that.
    NahuaqueMykellahOonaghArbre
  • KalakKalak Member Posts: 252 ✭✭✭
    Rasani said:

    The problem, Kalak, is that YOU want an Enorian where we have witch hunts. You want an Enorian of the past, of over zealous people who are paranoid, who don't want to give people a second, or even third chance. That's not the Enorian the players right now want, nor is it the Enorian that, in my meeting with our former producer, the game was seeking. You want a city that doesn't exist, and, frankly? It shouldn't have to just so people can do this sort of shitty thing. I don't mind spy rp, a betrayal. But it's straight up the ABSURD lengths the theft was taken to.

    And I'll say this: I do not believe for one moment Spinesreach would've given anything back, had there not been intervention. Be it Xenia, be it Gods, be it some other, good natured player. If the people who had been in charge of this 'espionage' had been the only ones making the choice, they would've kept it, and spent the next years IRL gloating about it to make them feel really cool and tough. And that kind of behavior, that kind of callous disregard for, again, PEOPLE behind KEYBOARDS is a poison. If you want a game full of callous people who don't care about their fellow player, I hope to god you have to find another one. Not because I want anyone run out, but because I will not stick around if that behavior becomes the norm. Not a chance.

    You give people a second chance, but not with blind trust. There is an acceptable amount of time when an organization can grow over a player so they will not pull such an act.

    Now my opinion could seem as a harsh one but that is truest to the story of a game. If there was no intervention, Enorian would either have to recover their losses partly via diplomacy/bending the knee or endure the difficulties presented, building a different way of existence. Intervention truly diluted the occurrences and killed all the possible futures for the game.

    None of us are callous people because we wish for a game with consequences. A game where one side can end up screwed over and becomes ready to reform their approach to the gameplay.
    Nahuaque
  • XavinXavin Member Posts: 1,446 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What they're saying, and what you are ignoring, is that there was no espionage game at play. What you are calling red flags, being a former member of a guild, having recently separated from the guildmaster of that guild? Those aren't enough of a reason to keep someone out of a city. Furthermore, any hints that she may have been up to anything that was not above-board would have to have -willingly- been given. By all accounts there were no signs that she was up to something icly. @Toz has admitted he knew she was spying oocly and played along because he was willing to play the loss and did not suspect that she would go so over and beyond what was appropriate. For there to have been hints in character that Atarah was up to anything, she would have had to willingly give them. She did not do so by all accounts. She presented herself as if she were acting in good faith both in and out of character, in fact telling at least two people out of character that had she not switched sides she would have retired or quit the game.

    There was no way for Enorian to actually detect this beyond never giving any former Syssin any position that would give them any power at all. And that is not a reasonable expectation.

    ShachalaiKalakNahuaqueOonaghMykellah
  • ShachalaiShachalai Member Posts: 96 ✭✭✭
    edited March 8
    Kalak said:

    @Shachalai Sorry but assuming there is zero risk is abyssmally wrong. If the person is found out, they will lose the trust of the other organization like forever. And they can even remain an enemy for a very long time or indefinitely. No one likes traitors. It should not be too hard to accept that Enorian failed the espionage game. Also the idea that people decide how they present themselves via what they type into the game, control every tell perfectly tailored to whatever they like...is acceptable when you are not good at reading through the words of people.

    Most of the time I can read through people's words on what they intend, but Kalak generally upholds the concept of "Trust once, but once only" So yes, there are times my character got screwed too. But that is because of a design decision rather then I can be manipulated. The words of people generally will betray their intentions. Failure to see indicators...eh...there is nothing can be done about that.

    You've failed to refute Toz:
    Toz said:

    [Spy RP] cannot be detected save through shortcomings of the person doing it, there is no money trail tying them back to Russia, you can't go through their mail and look for key words - so long as they keep to tells, or just don't talk about it at all after being sent out, it's really just a matter of playing the waiting game and waiting for things to hit. In this specific case, the only thing the Syssin invested or 'risked' was time. Maybe she plays in Enorian for a day and gets lucky, maybe she's there a RL decade, there's still no loss. If you are discovered, in fact, which is the 'worst' thing that can happen, the consequences are (hilariously enough) the exact same as when you turncoat - you get killed and kicked and enemied.

    Also, you've failed to demonstrate with any degree of adequacy that Atarah was acting in good faith, or that even if she was, she was leaving tells, hints, and other clues for people who were paying attention. These are massive assumptions, and the fact that their truth values aren't currently known undermines the rest of your argument here.
  • PhoeneciaPhoenecia The Merchant of Esterport Somewhere in AtticaMember Posts: 515 ✭✭✭✭✭
    As has been said ad nauseum: Aetolia lacks any large, meaningful conflict mechanic. Beyond events and very loose themes each city has, there aren't any solid goals for people to dedicate themselves to, and that's a problem. 

    Yeah, sure, we have ylem to fight over, but ylem isn't a central component to whatever theme each city is central to. Give us a system where we have territory to fight over. Or resources that are actually crucial for functioning. Give us a system where you have multiple avenues you can use to contribute and still have a meaningful impact on the game without having to invest heavily in PK or RP alone. Give us a system where you can jump into conflict and reap big rewards, but not be so screwed over you can't function. A system with checks and cooldowns that would make abuse less likely and be less exasperating to participate in, and doesn't require us to essentially not have a life for x number of days.

    To address the ongoing discussion that's been going on about what happened. There's two aspects to this game: the actual rules of the game decided on and enforced by the admins, and the norms or spirit of the game which is largely enforced by players.

    Yeah, it's been said that no rules were broken. Fine. It is what it is. And mechanically, no, no rules were broken.

    However. What happened really went against the spirit of the game and the norms a majority of players seem to abide by. I think this is pretty apparent by now. A large number of players don't think what was done by a few individuals was okay. Most players here are people that, while we may not like them, try their damnedest to make playing enjoyable for others. Things were done to take advantage of that established norm. It went against the spirit of the game that a large number of players seem to hold.

    Yeah, maybe no rules were broken, but let's face it. People are more hurt and disgusted by the spirit of the game being undermined because it takes some serious lack of empathy or regard for others to go against the norms the community has established for itself. 

    If you know people in this community, you'll have undoubtedly heard things. How many people have quit over this debacle? How many are still considering it? How many have stepped down from leadership or switched sides out of disgust? How many more are dissuaded from simply logging in or have decided to take a break? How many people have decided to just simply not trust certain players because you know now the lengths they'll go to screw you over?

    Now. Extrapolate from this and consider other actions in the game. Sure. Someone might not be breaking any rules, but a lot of stuff they do goes against the spirit of the game. Ask the same questions I just asked above, and think. If a large number of players feel certain behaviors are unhealthy and detrimental to the game, but those behaviors are allowed to continue, what do you think that will do to the community if the norms are continually violated? 

    There are two aspects of this game that have to be looked after in order to keep the game in a good spot: enforcing the rules and taking care of the community. Enforcing rules is somewhat easy since it's rather black and white. Taking care of the community? That's tricky. 

    But think of it this way. You want the game community to be welcoming, helpful, and supportive? You want people to keep coming back, recommending the game to others? Consider the behaviors that are repeatedly done that might be hurting or going against the spirit of the game. As players? A lot of the time we're able to police ourselves. But I think it night go a long way in knowing that the staff severely discourage certain behaviors too, though in a position where your primary job is to enforce rules? Might not be possible.

    So. I dunno. Something to consider.

    (And yes. This is probably very hypocritical coming from me, and I recognize that)
    NahuaqueMykellah
  • KalakKalak Member Posts: 252 ✭✭✭
    edited March 8
    Oofa said:

    @Kalak you are always side-stepping the fact that it is IMPOSSIBLE for the spy to be found out unless the player makes a conscious decision to reveal themselves, e.g. roleplaying a mistake. Knowing that Enorian can't blackball players indefinitely for their previous org, by what mechanism could anyone have known aside from just holding onto their suspicions for eternity? Enorian knew OOC this was happening so those players were very generously waiting for Atarah to actually RP this theft, but that never happened.

    I don't even have a strong opinion on the actual theft, but your unwillingness to address this is frustrating. Have you considered taking a 24 hour break from the conversation instead of restating your case over and over?

    I am not sidestepping the fact....How could I say, hrm...Determining whether a person is dishonest or not from the words they present to you requires a kind of experience which can be possessed over time. And ICly if you are suspicious of anyone, you test them in subtle ways or put them on a safe spot where you do not offend them and can keep an eye on them.

    It was one of my priorities in other games when I am the lead, that I would try to make the rules spy-tolerant. Hence no such unpleasant stuff happened on my watch while people had a chance to rise through the ranks of the organization itself. One aim is to make people not feel like they are second class members and another aim is that in the case they might be spies, their damage would be contained.

    @Xavin I several times stated that people should take their decisions based on IC not OOC. If they take their decisions based on OOC sensibilities and get mislead or burned due to a consequence...that is their OOC responsibility. For IC world it means that you have been acting irrationally and out of context. Now I do not say that people should keep someone off from their city. Just do not hand them vital roles that easily and try to read into their intentions. Hints are not given willingly always, one of the responsibility of leadership is to talk with people and try to find cracks in their logic and words.

    @Shachalai People do not have to give you any clues willingly, you have to cut the wheat from chaff. Engage them, observe them and draw a conclusion. I think at this point you try to mask the obvious failure of Enorian players by attributing to the external situations.
    XavinNahuaqueMykellah
  • XavinXavin Member Posts: 1,446 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Man, you're ignoring everything being said. The only red flag was where she had come from. Literally. She gave no indication through interaction that she was going to screw Enorian this hard. Nor did she give it oocly. Stop ignoring what people are saying.

    SessizlikNahuaqueOonaghMykellah
  • ShachalaiShachalai Member Posts: 96 ✭✭✭
    Kalak said:

    @Shachalai People do not have to give you any clues willingly, you have to cut the wheat from chaff. Engage them, observe them and draw a conclusion. I think at this point you try to mask the obvious failure of Enorian players by attributing to the external situations.

    Wait, wait.
    Kalak said:

    Also the idea that people decide how they present themselves via what they type into the game, control every tell perfectly tailored to whatever they like...is acceptable when you are not good at reading through the words of people. ... Most of the time I can read through people's words on what they intend, but Kalak generally upholds the concept of "Trust once, but once only" So yes, there are times my character got screwed too. But that is because of a design decision rather then I can be manipulated. The words of people generally will betray their intentions. Failure to see indicators...eh...there is nothing can be done about that.

    Which is it? 'People don't have to give you any clues willingly', or 'you failed to see the indicators'?

    You have to pick one in order to remain consistent.
    SessizlikKalakNahuaqueMykellahOonagh
  • KalakKalak Member Posts: 252 ✭✭✭
    @Shachalai People subconsciously are prone to give you hints or indicators in their speech patterns or how they act towards you. Even in MUD games, that holds true while it may be trickier. So what is said is not mutually exclusive. People don't have to give you any clues "willingly" and you can still fail to see the indicators lurking around their person. That is pretty consistent.

    So please stop trying to pick some small pockets in quotes and try to portray me as someone inconsistent. Instead get involved. Pick the details in the way people type, then you shall find your answers.
    NahuaqueSessizlikMykellahOonagh
  • SatomiSatomi Member Posts: 312 ✭✭✭
    Just going to reiterate this again, guys.

    Regardless of what the Divine did. Regardless of who was online at the time. Regardless of how much of the leadership showed up. The comms were going to be returned.

    The only possible difference would have been the manner in which they were returned, and potentially how much of it was returned.

    Trust me. I tried delaying it a bit, but people were adamant. It's part of why I love their characters, and they were completely in character while making those decisions.

    As for Spy RP? Personally, I think it's more exciting to play the double-agent. I mean, if Satomi randomly joined Enorian, for example, well, she'd probably be more than welcome. If I were going to be a spy, I might poke at admins to maybe set up a thing where the city guards come to Rasani, or maybe one of the Heralds, or their Warden, and have them mention some shady business that Satomi is up to.. like.. leaving letters in dead drops (I'd even write out letters and drop them in discreet places throughout the city). Maybe I'd leave the city at specific times of the IG day looking furtive in front of the guards and such.

    You could even go so far as to let Enorian people know, OOC, that you are a spy and hope/trust that they won't abuse that knowledge in a meta-gamey fashion. Not everyone, of course, but the people who are most-likely to be suspicious, and least likely to ruin the RP.

    I mean, realistically, spies do a lot of shady-looking things on the regular unless they are in a deep-dive, no communication sort of thing.. and even then they establish networks.. Like asking the guards about their patrol rotations or some nonsense.

    Anyway, it comes down to how much you're willing to put yourself out there. Whether you mind losing a little bit, or you just want to win. etc. etc. There are ways to make being a spy valid and interesting, it just depends on how willing you are to potentially get caught and executed before being booted back to Spinesreach with nothing in hand.

    NahuaqueAedenTrikal
  • ShachalaiShachalai Member Posts: 96 ✭✭✭
    edited March 8
    Kalak said:

    @Shachalai People subconsciously are prone to give you hints or indicators in their speech patterns or how they act towards you. Even in MUD games, that holds true while it may be trickier. So what is said is not mutually exclusive. People don't have to give you any clues "willingly" and you can still fail to see the indicators lurking around their person. That is pretty consistent.

    So please stop trying to pick some small pockets in quotes and try to portray me as someone inconsistent. Instead get involved. Pick the details in the way people type, then you shall find your answers.

    You are asking people to determine meaning - shaded with both IC and OOC context - from unaided, unadorned text within a fictional setting.

    Text lacks a clear and consistent means of denoting emphasis, tone, pitch, and micropauses.

    Unlike real life behavior, this game is not only missing reliable means of communicating these things, but a character's behavior is subject to more premeditation and deliberation than someone just spontaneously acting in real life. You can control for a lot of factors that you can't in real life.

    Writing style, word choice, grammar, emphasis - these are all subjective things, and by nature of the fact that language is an imprecise tool, the same ideas and the same words will communicate very different impressions to different people.

    Essentially, you're just asking us to guess, and if we guess wrong, we lose all our commodities.

    That's somehow even worse than the contradiction you initially presented.

    See also, the Toz post you've consistently failed to engage with:
    Toz said:

    [Spy RP] cannot be detected save through shortcomings of the person doing it, there is no money trail tying them back to Russia, you can't go through their mail and look for key words - so long as they keep to tells, or just don't talk about it at all after being sent out, it's really just a matter of playing the waiting game and waiting for things to hit.

    NahuaqueSessizlikMykellahOonaghArbre
  • IraeIrae Six feet under.Member Posts: 73 ✭✭✭
    Just a perspective from someone who doesn't play anymore:

    I agree with your point @Satomi , but from what I'm getting the point people are trying to make is that there was no effort in trying to RP the double-agent, nor any heads-up from the player betraying Enorian that their character was going to betray them. Perhaps something more interesting could have been arranged between both parties that could have resulted in something meaningful.

    But from what I'm getting, this character just got up and left suddenly despite providing no hint IC or OOC that such was going to happen. It's trivial for anyone to just side-hop, play nice for a bit and then betray or leave you out of nowhere. It's really on the betrayer (if they're even trying to RP) to drop hints and make the act even remotely interesting.

    @Kalak, sure, body language and speech patterns are important indicators of stuff in real life. But that's directly observable. In a medium like text where clues and hints can pretty much be lost based on both the skill of the writer and the comprehension skills of the reader, you can't just rely on 2deep4you hints.
    SessizlikOonaghSatomiShachalai
  • XeniaXenia Member Posts: 943 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Rasani said:

    Should also mention? If someone reached out to the Gods, I'm unaware of it. That's possible, because we don't have to tell each other everything, but from my standpoint? It looks like the Gods saw Spines unwilling to deal, and decided to even the balances a little bit. The increasing curses would've been a cool thing, sure, but why would they bother? Frankly, in any other sort of fantasy context, nobody would've batted an eye if each god Plagued the city. Biblical style, I suppose.

    @Rasani on some level, this kind of bothers me, because before the gods cursed or did anything, IC Xenia, a Spirean senator, had contacted Rasanin and began negotiating with her and explaining her intentions.
    image
    NahuaqueSatomiOofa
  • SilenaSilena Member, Immortal Posts: 95 Immortal
    Teani said:

    Silena said:

    @Teani, I like that you're getting back to thinking of solutions to the lack of conflict options, but I think you're not considering the reason why people would assume the theft would not be negotiated: We lack conflict options to force the issue.

    On the other hand, removing a God's curse often just involves complaining/apologizing to the God in question, or taking it up with the paid admin. If you know how to resolve one issue but not another, you're likely to assume the latter isn't going to happen. Or at least, that you have no means of influencing it.

    Whether the reason for taking it at face value is what I mentioned, or what you mention above, I still believe it would have been a good idea to give it some more time to see what happens/talk/whatever, before exploding, sneaking comms back, sending nasty OOC messages, and whatnot.

    Don't misunderstand me, I can understand why people were upset.
    Maybe. Hindsight is 20/20. I don't disagree, I understand why people were upset. I also know there was a good chance people would be upset if we did nothing. I don't know what the perfect solution was... otherwise, I'd have suggested it! I'd prefer to focus on what could be changed, ie, mechanics of how to do conflict like this.
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