A Goodbye

TozToz Member Posts: 2,498 ✭✭✭✭✭
I made one of these before and it didn't stick, so who knows if this one will. I'm not retiring but I do refuse to engage in gameplay with the people involved, so I'm taking both what little time and resources I've committed elsewhere.

For those of you not aware, @Atarah stole every single comm from Enorian that was available to take. I found out OOCly she was doing the spy thing but kept my mouth shut about it, and that's a decision I now deeply, deeply regret.

In the course of playing this game, there have been ups and downs, but org theft during betrayal is something I have always condemned, and the same for other various forms of theft. It may be true to life, but this is a game - where we engage (or try to) in collaborative story telling and conflict with one another.

I disapprove beyond words of both the Syssin guild as a whole, and this player in particular's choice of price extracted for people being willing to allow someone a chance to sidehop/play the game differently, especially when it was so consistently couched as ' I was close to retiring forever until I swapped sides '. I have no interest in engaging with any involved in a storytelling capacity further, because I don't believe them to be capable of carrying themselves with anything remotely close to class.

Take care, thanks for the good times and bad. I'll he back, maybe, if my faith in org leadership and players is ever restored.

Arbre-Today at 7:27 PM

You're a vindictive lil unicorn

Lartus-Today at 7:16 PM

oh wait, toz is famous

Karhast-Today at 7:01 PM

You're a singularity of unicorns awfulness Toz


  • BenedictoBenedicto Tentacles Errywhere! Member Posts: 859 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I actually can't face logging in either. So I dunno when/if I'll be able to.
    (Leaders): Tiur says, "I'll remember not to delete you when the time comes, Bene. Good people."

  • IllidanIllidan Pray AreaMember Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So what you're saying is they metagamed to do it.

    Well, some pretty swift justice was hashed out by the Divine from an IG perspective, which I think is pretty cool. But I don't think orgtheft as a means to start conflict in the game (if that's what the intention was) is just fun at all.
    They didn't listen when I said Shamans were strong in groups. 
    Aetolia Buzzwords: Bad actors, disingenuous, disingenuous bad actors, and bad actors being disingenuous. 

  • TozToz Member Posts: 2,498 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tiur said:

    I'm sad to see any player leave. I would advise you let the dust settle before making any drastic decisions, but it's a game, and if you're not having fun, take a break! But please give me a little faith that I'm trying to keep things fun for everyone.

    I'll boil it down instead of being wordy: I cannot make people not be jerks. By letting players have a political system, where your choices matter, I HAVE to leave you with choices to make.

    It is not good that one person can cripple an org (and I use this word very lightly, we wouldn't leave an org to just flounder like this) so easily by themselves. We're looking at fixing that. It could be as simple as not letting aides price commodities, or maybe I'll put a sales limit per day. But let's allow the dust to settle, I won't put in anything without giving Enorian a chance to do something like steal it all back, do something IC, or even just be given things back.

    I also need to let other timezones work in here. The Syssin may not like the results of their actions, and I encourage everyone to keep things IC and make it known how you feel; let consequences be as IC as the actions. Perhaps Spinesreach will disavow what could cause war. Maybe we'll see a war. But let's see!

    I don't envy your position in the slightest. I just have no interest in engaging with the players involved at all, and so I won't. Leaving Aetolia one player less is the only form of proper protest to what is, to me, a fundamental flaw with the humans behind the screen. ICly, sure it makes sense. Gouge the enemy org as hard as you can. OOCly, there was a shocking, disgusting lack of concern or empathy for other people engaging in this game.

    Arbre-Today at 7:27 PM

    You're a vindictive lil unicorn

    Lartus-Today at 7:16 PM

    oh wait, toz is famous

    Karhast-Today at 7:01 PM

    You're a singularity of unicorns awfulness Toz
  • IllidanIllidan Pray AreaMember Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think part of the frustration on the lifer side, and I say this being an 9+ year veteran of strict life side playing, is that when orgtheft happens its pretty much ALWAYS to a lifer org. Even when it comes to things like robbing the master crystal. Someone correct me if i'm wrong, but I can't think of a single instance that a someone on the spirit side initiated some type of mass orgtheft. There were a few cases, but they were strictly retaliatory as I recall. When it comes to things like this, it's hard for there to be any meaningful recourse. If spines -really- wanted to, they would just deal with the curses and keep the comms. What's the worse that Enorian could to retaliate? Kill them a bunch of times? Because we all know death has meaning in this game. So what can players really do in cases like this where it MEANS something?

    As a disclaimer, I'm not upset about this as a player at all, largely because I've been pretty detached from the game for the past couple of years. However, this is exactly the type of thing that would have made my blood boil if I was a committed player. It just seems like history keeps on repeating itself and nothing gets done to fix it and I don't mean JUST orgtheft.
    They didn't listen when I said Shamans were strong in groups. 
    Aetolia Buzzwords: Bad actors, disingenuous, disingenuous bad actors, and bad actors being disingenuous. 

  • SatomiSatomi Member Posts: 321 ✭✭✭
    edited March 2018
    @Illidan The problem is that Shadow has always been enabled to be ruthless. It's part of the whole "Well, you murder people for food as Vampires" thing.

    That said, I have a tooooooooooooooooooooooon of ideas (not literally, but figuratively) for Comm Minister stuff... cause you know... I'm all about it right now. It's my thing.

    Also, just saying, I have a pending series of murders for someone who effectively orgthefted/slighted Satomi, the way she sees it, IC. It's fun to add the RP effect, but it gets exhausting when they just stop logging on so you can't exact your vengeance. (Random aside).

    Also, @Toz, I hope to see you around from time to time. You're awesome. Hearts and such, and always welcome!

  • NahuaqueNahuaque Member Posts: 23 ✭✭
    Satomi said:

    @Illidan The problem is that Shadow has always been enabled to be ruthless. It's part of the whole "Well, you murder people for food as Vampires" thing.

    I think this is the wrong way to look at the lifer/light side. You have every bit of chance to be ruthless as anyone else. Some of history's worst villains took the mindset of the ends justifying the means. A sin for the greater good. Just think of all the people who forced exorcisms on others, all the people who were stoned for adultery, all the atrocities committed in the name of some faith or creed or greater good.

    I'm not saying that org theft isn't frustrating, I'll grant that. But lighters have just as much ground, and reason, to behave ruthlessly as do darkies.
  • SatomiSatomi Member Posts: 321 ✭✭✭
    @Nahuaque That's sorta how I viewed Haven, when he was active.

    That's also how I played it when I was an Antiochan Priest during Imperian's hayday.

  • MykellahMykellah EnorianMember Posts: 69 ✭✭✭
    edited March 2018
    Gee golly I sure do love waking up to this as Trade Minister.

    Let's unpack this.

    1: The person who perpetuated this was instated as an aide without my approval or my consent.

    2: I didn't know what had happened and got told to cool my jets when I was trying to figure out what happened.

    3: I'm the one that gets to shoulder the responsibility of piecing things back together. Yes I know others did some things to try to correct this which I appreciate, but frankly after being the people who appointed someone without even informing me that you did and thereby allowing this to happen I don't trust you anymore to begin with.

    It's just as well that I've bought credits on Miki. I've said unicorns it and suicided a character over less. As is, if people are going to give me a hard time trying to make this right and prevent it from occurring again, then well, someone else can take this mess, I'll wash my hands of it. My stress went from 1 to 11 just trying to figure out what happened as is.

    The people who perpetuated this are vile griefers that I hope get everything that is coming to them. The people who allowed this to happen by sidestepping due process are people that Enorian needs to give a long hard think on whether they trust anymore (but they probably won't.)
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 2,272 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'd feel too overwhelmed to even know how to deal with something like this IC, there really is no repercussion strong enough available in game for there ever be some meaningful way to "work it out ICly". It shouldn't even be possible to do a fraction of that amount of damage.
  • PhoeneciaPhoenecia The Merchant of Esterport Somewhere in AtticaMember Posts: 794 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Having talked to a bunch of people and seen this talked about ad ad nauseum, I think it's safe to say a majority of players think what happened was disgraceful on the part of those who carried it out. There's a reason why org theft is considered one of the worst things you can do here, and why those who do it get ostracized by the player base.

    Org theft undermines the trust and sense of basic decency people have towards other players. Yes. We can be dicks to each other. But this is on an individual level, and usually? That's where it stays. When you're put into a position of power, you're put there because the PLAYERS trust you - it's not simply an IC matter. You violate that trust? It shows how little you regard other players. 

    And in this case? There was OOC manipulation going on too, which makes matters even worse. And because of it, We're losing players because the trust has been broken. Because some people have decided to take advantage of players' desire to make the game more accessible to people, or make it more fun/easier to transition into a new org. 

    Is that really healthy for the game? Being cautious of everyone on an OOC level because you don't know if they'll screw you over?
  • XeniaXenia Member Posts: 1,088 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2018
    Let's not. - Keroc

  • KalakKalak Member Posts: 274 ✭✭✭
    edited March 2018
    Guys guys, calm down. Firstly it is not nice to bring an IC event up here regardless of the gravity of the action. But people should just try to be more careful next time.

    I think from an IC standpoint I might be against @Fezzix and Syssin on the whole possibly would join a headhunt if Kalak was invited, though OOCly I would never think that I would come to their defense.

    - One does not simply recruit the wife of a dishonest Syssin general and give her the openings to one's resources. Commerce is an important part of any organization. So that is partly on Enorian.

    - People react upon orgthefts strongly because that is a clear loss for one side, a victory to the other side. That is natural. But what you should think about right now is not quitting or throwing tantrums but rather thinking how to retaliate.

    - There is no moderation in consequences. An action does not have to be palatable for anyone. If the theft was too little then it would be inconsequential.

    - @Shachalai If you are a city leader or any leader, you have to think about who is trustworthy and who is not. That is part of the espionage RP. Even if you are a citizen and suspect malevolent intentions, you can open up interesting "We have a spy amongst us" RP with city/guild officials.

    - The people who perpetuated this cannot be labelled as griefers, when there is clear motive for a city to deprive another city of resources. It is a malevolent RP act with serious consequences. @Mykellah herself right now indicated the approval was not hers. So perhaps circumventing a minister was not a good idea.

    - @Tiur I think sales limit etc. would be acknowledging that playerbase cannot govern itself without admin. Letting dust to settle is a really good advice though. And war trumpets are always fun to thump upon!
  • ShachalaiShachalai Member Posts: 96 ✭✭✭
    Kalak said:

    - @Shachalai If you are a city leader or any leader, you have to think about who is trustworthy and who is not. That is part of the espionage RP. Even if you are a citizen and suspect malevolent intentions, you can open up interesting "We have a spy amongst us" RP with city/guild officials.

    Shachalai said:

    While you can dispute the amount of trust we showed, and how quickly we showed it, that feels like a deflection from the fact that no matter how reasonably we dealt with Atarah, we were still going to get robbed. That's the part that sucks about it - knowing that, short of ruining a potentially solid player's game experience, there was nothing that we could have done to stop this from happening.

  • KelliaraKelliara Member Posts: 575 ✭✭✭✭
    I always think it's sad see any player leave, or talk about leaving, the game.

    While I understand the need for a break, I really hope both @Toz and @Benedicto come back, because you're both super awesome, and the game will absolutely be a lesser place for not having you guys in it.

    As for my 10c on the precipitating events, I think I'll sleep on things a little before I respond any further ICly or OOCly (it'd been a long day BEFORE I logged on), and honestly, I may not respond OOCly any further at all.
    Now with 253% more Madness.
    Cute-Kelli by @Sessizlik.
  • KodaKoda Member Posts: 159 ✭✭✭
    The really sad thing here is that it encourages leadership in cities to be more on guard about giving people chances. Whether they're newbies, or alts, or just moving from another city, the "safest" option now is - as it always has been - to put your buddies that you trust into the positions in charge here.

    Unfortunately it's not exactly unexpected behavior from this group. Same everything, different day.
  • KalakKalak Member Posts: 274 ✭✭✭
    edited March 2018
    Mykellah said:

    This whole post reads like "well you were stupid so you deserved to be robbed" which is a pretty crass thing to say at best.

    Actually the post says that you were not careful, it would be better next time to be careful. There is nothing about deserving it at all.

    I do not have any OOC stake in this after all. ICly I would be more then happy to help Enorian even, considering my character's standing against Spinesreach. But you will not see me bringing out IC matters to the OOC attention however grave they might be unless I need to give an example specifically for a mechanic or idea.

    Now you have a crisis at your hands and it will strengthen the bonds among characters even further and open up different RP avenues on how to handle this situation. Show must go on and people should rather concentrate upon the full half of the glass. But venting and anger will occur, that is natural. Just let us not go around calling the perpetrators as griefers or such unless deliberate metagaming involved.
  • SessizlikSessizlik Muffin Mage Member Posts: 491 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2018
    I've always found it fascinating how fast people who switch sides are welcomed in and given positions of power, if they are a bigshot name of the game. Atarah has obviously made a name for herself, loads of people know her and how she plays the game, and thus, she was loved and trusted when she switched sides. It's not the first time and it will probably not be the last time. It happens a lot.

    However, most of the time, things sortof work out. They stick to it for a while, or for a long time, and if they ever switch back, they simply just leave. Very rarely do they mess things up like that.
    Iirc, Tralendar destroying entire Enorian armies during war, before leaving for Bloodloch.
    There's been people emptying guilds of both gold and credits.
    And the end results are always the same.

    This is what happens. People who are well liked, steady players with well liked, steady characters leave. Even if it's just temporary, they still leave. Or like Mykellah, who is stuck having to clean up the entire mess and stresses out because there's so much distrust and accusations and things going on. I am so happy I don't have to deal with that. My psyche wouldn't be able to handle it at all.

    I honestly don't CARE if this was meant to instigate conflict with Enorian, if it was planned from the beginning when she moved, if it was "just for fun". It is ruining the game for people other than YOU. I stopped playing for a while when the Syssin guild robbed a whole bunch of shops, among them Rilou's shop (I think it was), who had things that came from him spending IC money. Because I left, I lost Sessi's shop. I lost a whole lot of rp, and quite frankly, because of those things, I don't play Sessi anymore. Because Some People Just Can't Control Themselves and ruin things for others.

    Ugh, yeah, my 2 cents. It's upsetting and I understand why people leave, but instead of having the good people leave, can't just all those ruining the game leave instead? Would be so much better.
    Loads of love to Toz and Bene and anyone else who don't feel like playing due to this.

    Edit: Also.. raging a bit at this.
    2018/03/06 19:21:31 - XXXX cityfavoured Atarah for: Coming back home! I'm sure you had to sit through a lot of boring tea parties and we appreciate that you like us better.
  • SilenaSilena Member, Immortal Posts: 139 Immortal
    Do try to keep this civil.

    For my own two cents, I'm at a loss to think how Enorian could respond, if there had been no divine/admin intervention. There is no war system currently, but even if there was, the city would likely be unable to engage. They could raid, but without commodities their own ability to defend their city is questionable. They could set bounties indefinitely, and then what? In the case of the last two options, it does nothing to address the damage that's been done, and will never hurt the guild(and much less so the city) to the same degree.

    And as we've seen in the past, raiding/bounties done indefinitely will lead to complaints, no matter how egregious the crimes. So we(the admin) would still have to choose between not getting involved, and let both sides remain angry and unable to adequately respond, or stopping the attacks- essentially ruling against the ones who were targeted in the first place. Neither option is fair, imo, because either way the commodities are still gone.

    The response that did happen, this time(the curses), was not without controversy nor complaint either. The nature of theft on this scale is that there's currently no reasonable counter. If the argument is to 'do the same thing to them'- how long would that take? Who in Spinesreach would trust any notable Enorian enough to allow the opportunity? And I think it's unfortunate, because as stressful as this situation was to me and many others, in a general sense I like the idea of theft as an rp option. Even org theft. But there has to be a response that doesn't depend, quite literally, on the whim of the gods.

    Since there isn't a way to address it, the effect is far more demoralizing than likely to lead to "good" conflict... which is a problem in need of fixing. In the meantime, bear in mind that this is a small community. Places where orgtheft is common, and expected, and to which this situation has been compared- they have far more players. Hundreds(in the case of Achaea), and thousands, in the case of other online games. Losing one or two or even a dozen people doesn't hurt as much, and tends to be forgotten more quickly as a result. That's not the case here.

    I would hope that everyone considers the likely result of a particular action vs what you want to happen. No one benefits from driving away the people you desire conflict with, and giving your org a bad reputation hurts those who may want to join(or leave) it later.
  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotionMember Posts: 992 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2018
    I want to add something to the folks saying, "Well, just give them an additional layer of scrutiny. Why didn't you just not let Atarah in?"

    The reality is that the game's population isn't what it used to be. No one is really in a position, nor should they be, to say no to players or deny them from switching sides. Not to mention, there's a historical precedent where if Atarah was being denied by Enorian and she really wanted to go to Enorian, there likely would've been admin intervention to let her in. This is kind of what @Shachalai means in that, no matter what, they probably were going to get robbed.

    I know orgs like to think that if they really wanted to, they could restrict people forever for arbitrary reasons. I know some Spireans have claimed as much, but the reality is that there have been cases of players being admin inducted. Being a part of a city is a massive part of the IRE experience and this rings true for Aetolia as well. This is why it's nearly impossible to permanently ban someone from an organization unless they do something like org theft so... Atarah may have inadvertently created a very negative consequence for herself going down the road. This may have also had the inadvertent side effect of all former Syssin being treated like crap too via additional scrutiny if they decide to org hop rather than giving them a clean slate.

    Org theft never ends well.
  • RurthinaRurthina SpinesreachMember Posts: 8
    The perpetrator of this crime was a leader in a guild since she was a teenager, a guild whose first line of their help file says they are bestowed with the gift of guile and deception. She was a leader in that guild for over 10 years. She was a Senator of Spinesreach for over 14 years.

    How long was this individual a citizen of Enorian before she was made an Enorian minister? I know it was less than two IC months, it might have even been after 4 real days.

    Which citizen of Enorian, before she ever left Spinesreach, was attempting to convert her, the wife of the General? Thus leaving themselves wide open, IC. When you play with the devil you are opening yourself up to consequences. Is Atarah the RL person a bad person? Absolutely not. There was absolutely no excuse, in the heat of the moment or any other time, for the OOC messages she received in the game.

    All of this came about in less than two IC years, closer to just one year. Enorian can shift the blame to the Syssin, because they were roleplaying what they are. But they are at fault here too. They took a known enemy of theirs into their arms without any caution at all.

    The most concerning thing is the response from the administration. A precedent was set that basically says, "You do anything dark, evil, or subversive; we're just going to curse you down to where you have zero abilities." Four curses left every Syssin, including novices, with a long line of inept abilities. Most having zero clue IC or OOC to what was going on. The Syssin were told that until the commodities were returned, the entire guild would stay cursed for 100 RL days. Instead of allowing this to play out, give one curse, maybe two, allowing the Syssin to still be able to have some combat abilities and leverage, the administrators made the choice and set the tone for what this game is. The admin did not even allow the players any form of RP or in character resolution. No player base creativity allowed, no facilitating the roleplay, just zap.... "You give back the comms or you and your guild are non-effective." Well, you've now made the best RP guild in the game non-effective. I do hope that is what you wanted.

    What should be a dark world of vampires, even the spirit side having a twisted form of light, is sadly turned in to a bunch of teddy bear huggers. I realize that the old days cannot be repeated and that balancing good vs evil, is difficult, particularly to keep it fun for all.
  • RasaniRasani Member Posts: 228 ✭✭✭✭
    Yo, I wanna be clear: Atarah shouldn't have gotten OOC messages. I don't think she's a bad person, but I think the theft was a bit over the top. You can be deceptive and subversive without crippling an entire org. That's the point people are making.
  • RurthinaRurthina SpinesreachMember Posts: 8
    No way to know if it was over the top, there was no opportunity for the players/leaders to work out anything. Atarah returned to the guild at 19:15

    2018/03/06 20:29:42 - Ethne has bestowed a divine curse upon the Syssin. It will last for 100 days.
    2018/03/06 20:52:50 - Slyphe has bestowed a divine curse upon the Syssin. It will last for 100 days.
    2018/03/06 20:56:04 - Damariel has bestowed a divine curse upon the Syssin. It will last for 100

    2018/03/06 22:28:48 - Dhar has bestowed a divine disfavor upon the City of Spinesreach. It will last
    for 20 days.

    The divine set the tone without providing you any opportunity to talk to Spinesreach or negotiate. You were not crippled, there was time to negotiate.
This discussion has been closed.