WTF are Archivists...

RunasRunas Member Posts: 89 ✭✭✭

So let me preface this, with I have been a Cabalist for a long time in previous incarnations, and existed on alts here and there with numerous other guilds, various ranks, usually some kind of lore secretary, so I kinda pride myself on having knowledge of direction or purpose whilst within an Organization.

Upon the creation of the Archivists I was definitely excited for a change, for a direction...for a class to have an involvement aside from "For Science" being a general mantra for every action involved. I had a great time in the former Cabal, despite it being a bit insular, I felt it was neatly organized and whilst probably a bit boring a niche for some people, there was established lore/events.

With the change to the Archivists, my honest opinion thus far is...

-Heres a guild we created for a new class.

The HELP ARCHIVIST scroll gives no idea what the guild represents, in fact its the most vague of any guild scroll I have had an opportunity to read. The expectations in the guild show no real direction of the purpose or ambition of the guild. aside from Bring Things to the guildhall, because the Directors are hoarders.

I dont see any documentation of events, purpose, reports, expectations.

I see a basic progression per the guidelines Razmael laid out for all guilds a couple years back, the only thing unique is the Archivists want books, so bring some books, congratulations you are a new Archivist.

What is an Archivist:
What does an Archivist represent:
Why choose joining the Archivum:
What is the future of the Archivum:

I dont know, it just kinda seems like, heres a guild we slapped together so you can be a librarian or hoarder...

Are there plans for the future to do something with the Guild to support its purpose?

Anyways, perhaps I am just a bit jaded and not seeing it, but thats likely due to the communication -not- be shared. I have seen a couple ideas for advanced progression...

The amount of Kalsu being used seems to be a bit of an Indorani thing...
Also, I know the Cabal historically was distanced purposefully from Kalsu and relating itself to the is this back-tracking and re-establishing ourselves as an Ankyrean legacy.

I haven't really got a straight answer on what the Archivists future or purpose is...
I feel like its a guild stagnated on waiting for someone to nudge it forward.

The Divine voice of Tiur echoes in your head, "You know better than that. Bad."
A telekinetic newspaper swats your nose.


  • RunasRunas Member Posts: 89 ✭✭✭
    As a note: I would rather see steps taken in game to address some of this, whilst its nice to have OOC feedback, I have truly been questioning what this guilds whole meaning is.

    Right now it feels like a social club
    The Divine voice of Tiur echoes in your head, "You know better than that. Bad."
    A telekinetic newspaper swats your nose.
  • KanivaraKanivara Member Posts: 22 ✭✭
    From what I understand, the purpose of the Archivists is to catalogue knowledge, forbidden and common, seek power for the sake of having it, and keep powerful relics out of the hands of idiots. They're like... Lara Croft meets Indiana Jones meets that Milo guy from Atlantis meets Stephen Franklin from Babylon 5 meets the librarian guy in the live action Doctor Strange movie. When what I'm doing (or trying to do) finally gets approved, we're going to have fighters, people actively researching new stuff, people cataloguing events so history isn't lost anymore, people exploring the lands, people going and taking relics so the uneducated can't get themselves in trouble... there's a whole lot I've built that I'm going to like.... really try to flavor up and focus on as the person in charge of progression.

    The Kalsu on the door and in the Halls of Study I'm putting together is a nod to the Ankyrean history of Spinesreach. The usage of Cabals in the Halls of Study is a nod to the Cabalists. All it is, is acknowledging the history that came before us. We don't use it in ritual and the only tasks I have regarding Kalsu are optional. People don't have to do anything with Kalsu if they don't want to.

    I'm waiting on Kelliara to approve the task list before I flavor it all up and get it installed.

    Now, that said? I'm... sort of in the lurch myself. I have -no clue- what the genuine direction of this guild is supposed to be. If the admin told Kelliara, she hasn't shared it. So I'm doing all this work with the hope that we don't get Carnifexed (told that all the work you did took it in the wrong direction and you're bad for that) and the fear that we will be. I've put MONTHS into this, with no concrete goal other than getting people to GR5, because I have no idea what the purpose is beyond what's in the Mission and Ideals that Kelliara wrote, and the Procedure and Principle book that Sneak (the admin) wrote.

    Honestly, I feel like I'm the only person actually doing anything to make the guild grow. I know others are doing something about -retention-, which I appreciate, but growth? That's all on me. Which is... fun... I can't even inguild people so I have to send prospective members to Kelliara or Akaryuterra, and I'm around more often.

    I mean, don't get me wrong here, I absolutely adore Kelliara and Akaryuterra. I just don't -see- them doing anything, so it -feels- like I'm the only one doing any freakin' work. I'm sure that's not correct, but again... perceptions. Perceptions matter, heh.

    Anyway the teal deer here is you're not the only one feeling like we're directionless. But I'm actively trying to get what I understand to be the purpose rolled out to people and the stagnation we've got going cleared up.
  • PhoeneciaPhoenecia The Merchant of Esterport Somewhere in AtticaMember Posts: 657 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So. I'm going to come right out and say that I have no idea what the Archivists are about or what the guild is like, but the situation seems like the one we had run into recently with Duiran. Lack of direction, lack of clear goals, missing/piecemeal/or vague lore. 

    I think if you guys are really that concerned, you should probably do what we did and have a sit-down with a Divine patron and have an OOC chat about the concerns you have - the health of your guild is important, as well as it's role in the game. Having that kind of talk serves a few purposes. It helps get all of your guild leaders on the same page, and helps in further clarifying your role as a guild, and helps outline a much more clear direction of where the guild is supposed to go, while still being able to instill your own ideas in how you want things done.

    You'll also have to ask yourself a lot of really hard questions you'll have to supply an answer for.

    What is the guild's purpose? How does it fit in with the city it belongs to? How should it go about carrying out its goals? How should it view and interact with the other orgs it works with? How should it view and interact with the orgs that oppose it? How does it fit in with the overall Spirit vs Shadow conflict? Hopefully having a talk with someone higher up can help further define these things for you so you feel less direction less, and you don't have to worry so much about veering off too much in a direction where you might end up needing to be reined in later.
  • RunasRunas Member Posts: 89 ✭✭✭
    Right now it really just seems like the Sciomancers and Archivists are both headbutting each other for the same niche in Spinesreach, and either guild arrogantly believing to be superior in their ability to do the same thing.
    The Divine voice of Tiur echoes in your head, "You know better than that. Bad."
    A telekinetic newspaper swats your nose.
  • TeaniTeani Evening Sky SwedenMember Posts: 2,073 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That is not how it's supposed to be. The Sciomancers are supposed to only deal with Elemental research. All other forms of research was to be the province of the Archivists. The directives that were delivered around the shift of the year was that Archivists were to provide support troops, and handle whatever dangerous information was uncovered that might, in the wrong hands, cause disaster. They were to deal specifically with relics and lore, with both history and progress by research. At least this is the information I received, but that was before the actual guild was formed. I believe that this is the direction they would have aimed for as a start, however, and something you can probably grab on to.

    The event where the Archivists were launched caused some rather immediate strains on inter-guild relations. It is possible that some of the arrogance you sense might be a remnant from that. I have been informed that it was a blunder by the Admin to have Sneak come in storming into the Sciomancer guildhall with a know-it-all attitude, as if she could ever know more than Nevithor. They needed Sneak for the release, but did not consider the consequences, specially not after the OOC talks of Admin wanting guilds in cities to work better together. However, once they had started down that path, it was difficult to break away from it.

    I would suggest trying to grab @Akaryuterra and @Kelliara for more information, but I also believe a sitdown with Admin might be a good idea. It would be nice for all leaders in Spinesreach, I think, so that we can clarify the directions we were all meant to keep to, and see if we can work together to get there.

  • KalakKalak Member Posts: 274 ✭✭✭
    Basically when I look at Archivists it reminds me this:

    Brotherhood of Steel from Fallout Series are people who obsessively hoard old world technologies in a post-apocalyptic world. Some of them do it nicely while blending among local populace while others patrol with badass power armors and high-tec weapons, forcefully extorting people, taking anything more advanced then a fork. On top of that, they carry out their own expeditions and researches all over the land while trying to stave off a mutant invasion.

    That style of RP opens so many avenues in my opinion. Though it is always safe to convene with admin, it would not be hard to derive several lines of RP arcs and unique kinds of conflict from what is given already.
  • VashVash Member Posts: 118 ✭✭✭
    I have a completely different feeling here. I actually chose the Archivists as I felt the goals and RP were obvious. It is a new guild though and the long term culture will be defined by what the players make up. So if you feel some aspect of the guild is underdeveloped then make something up and see if you can get other players to support you.

    These are the kinds of things that I think should be handled IC though.

    I will say that Vash hates reading books, is a terrible writer, and if he ever does collect a book or perform research it will be by complete accident.

    Also <3@Kanivara for the work you have put in! I think the first two guild rank tasks are great!
    Typically In Game: JST (GMT+9) 6AM-8AM and 6PM-10PM
  • KelliaraKelliara Member Posts: 575 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    I'll respond to all this in 12 more hours when I get home from work, because I'm far too angry right now that this has been raised in a forum thread, rather than with me directly in a private setting.
    Now with 253% more Madness.
    Cute-Kelli by @Sessizlik.
  • TiurTiur Producer Member, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 763 admin
    I am not commenting on the actual content of the thread. I just saw the BoS poster and needed to acknowledge its amazingness. If the Archivists are truly BoS, then you can confirm Producer Bias for loving them.

    Actual content: I'll talk with Spinesreach later, as I did Duiran, and then Enorian. Bloodloch will start the cycle up again after that.
  • VashVash Member Posts: 118 ✭✭✭
    BoS is in another castle.
    Typically In Game: JST (GMT+9) 6AM-8AM and 6PM-10PM
  • RunasRunas Member Posts: 89 ✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    @Kelliara it would have been raised in character however your leadership of the guild generally represents an "Aloof" approach.

    The guild leader interaction you provide is "What are you working on?"

    If you wish to be angry, then it can amount to what has been perceived.

    THAT ALL BEING SAID: TO my recollection it has been raised IC and OOC, and there has been little response to those who have done so (IE: Your Directors), so it has been brought here in hopes that maybe the admin can share whatever golden egg is possessed on our purpose. Since really the demonstration being done in a roleplay setting is not being made, in fact I haven't seen any formal statement of direction. What you make of it and Knowledge is what the Cabal did, so how is this different?

    Kind of seems pointless to delete one guild to do the exact same thing that seemed to be the issue in the first place.
    The Divine voice of Tiur echoes in your head, "You know better than that. Bad."
    A telekinetic newspaper swats your nose.
  • VashVash Member Posts: 118 ✭✭✭
    Sorry, I can't resist one last post while I wait for the subway.

    Vash's Archivist philosophy:
    And if you gaze long into an abyss, you will see something shiny and jump in after it.

    Typically In Game: JST (GMT+9) 6AM-8AM and 6PM-10PM
  • RunasRunas Member Posts: 89 ✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    As a note @Teani shared this with me IG and I will share it here for transparency of discussion.

    Message #786 Sent By: Teani Received On: 8/23/2017/21:21
    "Seems Kelli hasn't been given much direction after the guild was actually formed, and there wasn't enough
    transfer of notes and information from the December chats with Oleis to help current Admin with guidelines
    either. As for arrogant views, there was a huge mistake made during the Master Crystal/Archivist
    release/Plague event, which set people even more on edge than they were. Kani left the Sciomancers in sort of
    a huff before joining the Archivists, trying quite hard to stir up some drama both before and after. Things
    were really strained, but Akary and Kelli worked hard to minimize the damage. In the discussions in December,
    it was basically decided that the Syssin remain the way they always have been: Defenders of Spinesreach,
    assassins and spies. They're the easy ones. Sciomancers were to take a more prominent position in the city,
    but at the time, we were few in numbers and I had to try building it up. Our aim was to become warriors and
    diplomats, focusing on how to use our elements to strengthen the city with out intellectual minds. We were to
    concentrate on control over the elements, control over the market, control in our fighting. An outward face,
    arcane masters, ambassadors with the full backing of the Syssin's intelligence gathering and the Archivists
    application of Science and knowledge of the mundane. The Archivists were to take a supporting role in combat,
    coming in afterwards to extract the goodies and keep it for the city. They could also go out pro-actively and
    grab what they found interesting or useful. They were to experiment on things, research them, see if they
    could come up with uses for them, or contain them. They would work -together- with the Sciomancers if they
    found some way to incorporate the elements, they would work together with Syssin to ensure knowledge was kept
    safe or was shared within the city guilds as necessary, all for the good of the city. With bioessence, they
    would, I assume, also be experimenting with bodies, understanding lifeforms and such. Anyway, that'."

    So in essence I am not inherently blaming @Kelliara for the miscommunications, I have played with her and Roleplayed with her for many years, I know how she Roleplays well enough, its just how she is, and she is likely one of the most -solid- characters to exist in Aetolia, despite being also one of the most stubborn. As a player I know she if it is that there hasnt been much direction for her to drive forward, then it is similar to some of the issues held when she led the Atabahi as well, prior to its disbanding.

    I'm certainly not here trying to raise pitchforks, but perhaps light some fires to get that direction that Oleis did not provide when saying "YAY NEW GUILD" and then taking off.

    In essence I suppose I will look forward to that communication @Tiur talked about.
    The Divine voice of Tiur echoes in your head, "You know better than that. Bad."
    A telekinetic newspaper swats your nose.
  • DiogenDiogen Member, Immortal Posts: 186 Immortal
    Hey, I skimmed and just wanted to throw in on this. First I just wanted to note that a lot of these concerns seem to be easily resolved through some talking (which as Immortal Emperor @Tiur, Galactic Overlord said, will happen soon).

    But I wanted to say..... ORGREQS ORGREQS ORGREQS. I think a lot of players underestimate the power of orgreqs or believe they're something we ignore. We get a lot of them and they're not always consistently knocked out as fast as we'd like but they are reviewed, talked over and addressed.. and believe it or not, they do get done eventually!

    If you have an idea for an org or aren't happy with something, you should work with your org leader to put in some orgreqs. Your ideas matter and if they're for the overall betterment of the game, they'll probably get added in that way! So until we finish up with Duiran, please be encouraged to wrack your brains trying to come up with something awesome to fill in the blanks or solve the problems you see.

    At the very least your orgreqs will provide us with a starting point of where you (the org) feel you're at and want to go as a community; and that's very important!

  • KanivaraKanivara Member Posts: 22 ✭✭
    edited August 2017
    @Diogen Orgreqs are pretty useful, yeah, but if only one person can actually -see- them... they're not really useful in -this- case.
  • RunasRunas Member Posts: 89 ✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    They can give access to who can see them, but that again falls to the GUILDLEADER/CITYLEADER to give those privs, or assign them rather...
    The Divine voice of Tiur echoes in your head, "You know better than that. Bad."
    A telekinetic newspaper swats your nose.
  • DiogenDiogen Member, Immortal Posts: 186 Immortal
    edited August 2017
    @Kanivara I'm not sure what you mean. All volunteers can look over and work on orgreqs, the whole point of orgreqs was to address the problem of inactive/absent patrons and let all of us dip into eachother's workload. And if you mean clarification on various topics, then an orgreq would address that by providing an event to provide that clarification IC.

    @Runas pretty sure it's just the singular leader of the org that can submit, but once it's submitted more people can be added in on the orgreq to participate in its development.
    oh fine edit your post I see how it is

  • XavinXavin Member Posts: 1,451 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think, and I may be wrong, but that's what they mean by only a single person being able to submit/see them. Others have to be manually added.

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