Legacy Class Discussion

Iosyne · March 2013

This discussion was created from comments split from: Ankyrean Anguish - Aetolia-based RAGE.

Calipso · March 2013

Class balances and legacy classes compared to the new combat system. Seems like stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Osmond · March 2013

legacy classes?

Serrice · March 2013

I don't know how long it's been since certain classes have gotten an update, but perhaps it would better said to be 'offensively challenged' classes, since certain elder classes still pack a heavy offensive oomph (BB, Prae) while some of the newest ones could use some upgrades (new Tera comes to mind, Shaman before the series of buffs).

Riluo · March 2013

Serrice said:

I don't know how long it's been since certain classes have gotten an update, but perhaps it would better said to be 'offensively challenged' classes, since certain elder classes still pack a heavy offensive oomph (BB, Prae) while some of the newest ones could use some upgrades (new Tera comes to mind, Shaman before the series of buffs).

I agree to some extent. I had a quick play with tera and carnifex, both fun classes. Although Carnifex is a mess, it is pretty much here is a great concept and twenty skills, but sorry only three work... ok enjoy. The same goes for a few tera skills, but I was able to create a few nice combos and chains with it.

Illikaal · March 2013

Serrice said:

I don't know how long it's been since certain classes have gotten an update, but perhaps it would better said to be 'offensively challenged' classes, since certain elder classes still pack a heavy offensive oomph (BB, Prae) while some of the newest ones could use some upgrades (new Tera comes to mind, Shaman before the series of buffs).

You're out of your mind. Shamans are OP.

I personally don't feel like the problem is older classes stacking up against the newer ones. In fact, I think it's the opposite, actually. I know that these aren't 'all' the balancing factors that are put into designing a class in Aetolia, but I feel like the five most important things are:

1. How many afflictions they can dish out, and how powerful they(the afflictions) are per second

2. How much damage they can do per second (at full potential)

3. How much of a beating the class can take via damage reduction/management

4. How long they can sustain themselves for.

5. How powerful their hindering is while still maintaining an offense.

If you were to compare Shamans to something like a Praenomen, you're going to get some incredibly skewed comparisons. Just to touch on a few of the above mentioned points:

Shamans have the ability to be tanky, but they have to use active skills to do so while simultaneously sacrificing their offensive power. Said abilities to become more resistant to damage also do not last for long periods of time. When these defenses are not active, Shamans have a fairly low audit compared to many other classes. Shamans also do mediocre damage at best UNLESS they set themselves up for it. They can't just walk in the room and hit someone for an insane amount of damage without any warning whatsoever. They also by no means can autobash anyone to death, unless again, they meet the requirements that were built so cleverly into their kits. Finally, Shamans cannot sustain themselves in battle for extended periods of time like -very- many classes can. The more they put into their offensive and defensive power (overgrowths and oaths) the faster they burn through their willpower, and thus, become unable to fight.

Praenomen on the other hand are probably the second most damage resistant class in the entire game, second only to Bloodborn. No single person will probably ever straight up damage kill a Vamp, unless special conditions are met. Praenomen, and Bloodborn for that matter, both deal some pretty intense damage without warning, though this is largely attributed to how spears work, which is supposedly being changed soon. They have very good affliction output, incredibly good consistent damage output with no required setup, and extreme durability. It's also to my understanding that it is fairly easy to sustain yourself as a vampire in combat, with Blood being your most used up resource. I think (correct me if I'm wrong) a vampire could easily carry a few corpses around to replenish their pool, but even still, it doesn't drain at an alarming rate.

I personally think that all classes should move the way Shamans and Teradrim have gone, as I feel they are probably the two most balanced classes in the game. It just seems to me like people don't want to mess with them, as they both require the user to think about what they're doing and why they're doing it, rather than just using 3 or 4 skills and hoping the target dies.

Ezalor · March 2013

Well, you don't lose an entire skillset to 2 bashing attacks!!!

Haedyn · March 2013

Yeah .. I won't deny that Praenomen can tank damage, but keep in mind that to get the fullest potential out of the class you have to basically transcend six skills (Corpus, Mentis, Sanguis, Survival [focus], Vision [discernment], Weaponry [for optimal balance on weapon]). Moreover, one of these skillsets is almost completely disabled within a few rounds. Additionally, Mentis is quite costly on blood and re-raising minions and feeding -do- have a significant effect on your stacking momentum when you are up against endgame curing, class-based curing abilities, and a necklace of purity.

Many folks would then say "BUT BILES!!!" And, well, yes .. But biles. Biles are not insignificant. But the largest problem that folks typically have with biles is refusal to leave the room to cure them. Doing so not only removes the bile, but throws off the affliction tracking of the Praenomen, leaving them with the option of either trying to guess what was cured while you were out of the room or resetting their affliction tracking altogether (I do understand that this is a two-way street and running also costs you accuracy in your own tracking). This differs from, say, Teradrim, where even if your opponent runs and then comes back, the next time you hit a limb you get an update on the level of bruising that is on that limb. So it is not a complete loss in tracking accuracy as is the case with Praenomen. All that said, I would be more than willing to give up the advantage of using a shield (i.e. make spears two-handed weapons) for an increase in HP on my ghast. Just my thoughts.

EDIT: Actually, I'd really like to see Sanguis ents modified so that they can take advantage of the new setup that the developers put in for golems. (i.e. the possibility of bashing them up to increase HP, train them with a more complex array of reflexes, etc). This would obviously need a careful looking at so that it isn't over the top. That said, I'd trade a spear nerf for an overall increase in effectiveness and utility in one of our class-based skills any day.

Xavin · March 2013

I think you're oversimplifying biles. Yes, if you leave the room you -can- cure them. However, each one still takes an individual salve application, and you're likely dealing with other affs at the same time. Yes, you can reset biles in-room without actually curing them, so they're manageable. The point stands, however, that praenomen are very, very powerful even with the loss of their ent.

If nothing else, they are likely the single most versatile class in the game.

Ezalor · March 2013

Well Prae are rarely-if-ever pushing salve afflictions until winding up for a lock so you can devote salve applications entirely to slowing down biles. Really, losing an entire skillset instantly at the start of every fight is just silly, there's literally nothing else in Sanguis once the minion is gone. And the minion becomes gone very quickly!

It is undoubtedly one of the most complex and credit intensive classes to learn how to use efficiently. Losing Sanguis to a couple rounds is especially infuriating too. And trust me, Blood gets used up -very- quickly, and feeding/raising minions is like...5 seconds of downtime that is unreduceable.

Illikaal · March 2013

About that. I personally feel like -all- minion banishment abilities should be abolished entirely, unless they are specific. For example: Being able to kill/destroy Golems, Vampire Ents, Shaman familiars, Sentinel ents, Carnifex hounds, Chaos entities, etc, should be impossible as all of the ents are essential to the user's offense.

The ONLY exception to this I would make is banishment for the doppleganger, as it is not essential for combat, but instead serves as a ranged utility. After having fought Tina in the HG after she spammed Chaos storm for two minutes straight, or whatever the skill is that banishes Shaman familiars now for Necromancers, it really got annoying incredibly fast to have to summon the familiar back, only to have it destroyed again. Of course, it then cripples a class to not be fighting with their entities, and they're going to spend all of their time summoning them back. It would be just as bad as taking away whispers from a vampire, or the weapon away from anyone who uses one. While it's a cool mechanic, all its really doing is taking away a large part of someone's entire skillset. So:

Abolish all minion killing/banishment.

Edit: Another thing: Doing this would actually make disloyalty become a lot more valuable.

Ezalor · March 2013

I think I love you.

Seir · March 2013

There is no doubt that Praenomen is an incredibly complex class and takes a lot to put forward in order to utilize properly. To that end, I would compare it to older Sentinel (post-damage downgrade and pre-Quickfoot removal) in terms of complexity. Yet, with that complexity came a high reward if you used the class to its full potential. Now, this isn't me posting a witch hunt for Praenomen. Rather, this is me listing their strengths during my observations when I was a liaison as well as during my time fighting them.

* High amount of health/mana pressure through Indifference, Seduction and Temptation, their undead minion, and frenzy.

* Decent rate of afflictions. Dwhisper creates two afflictions, can be used while prone, and it goes through shield.

* The class is one of the few capable of truelocking given the variety of afflictions that they possess via Mentis and venom availability.

* Passive blackout if the victim is set back affliction wise and does not cure the hatred caused by bile.

* Block and Lure as a means of pulling runners back in.

* They can Disturb an enemy repeatedly if they begin to fall behind in order to regain momentum.

They also have a fair amount of utility, though I won't post on it in any official manner because I'm not entirely sure of which specific abilities are doing what. I do know that they have a variant of leap that masks the direction they move in. I've also been told about some form of passive heal or active heal.

The weaknesses of the class, as far as what I've been told by others and what appears to be consensus is that they run out of blood very quickly. Though, I've also been told that this can be mitigated by keeping a bunch of corpses on your person. Honestly, I feel that is a rather extraneous and unnecessary requirement in order to use your offense. As such, perhaps the blood costs can be mitigated in order to alleviate some of that burden. Also, there's the fact that they have no real way of dealing with rebounding, which forces them to resort to Frenzy and there's no guarantee that Frenzy will break a shield. If I recall correctly, I know Ilyon tried to push an upgrade to address that issue, but honestly it would likely push Praenomen too far over the top since shielding doesn't provide any reprieve from their offense and their passive, uncurable afflictions are still ticking away at you. I think Praenomen should, eventually, be given the ability to get through rebounding and the blood problems should be addressed.

Edit: I also agree with Illidan's point on trashing Rite of Banishment and all other banishment abilities. The only thing Banishment is really required for is Doppleganger.

Haedyn · March 2013

Xavin said:

I think you're oversimplifying biles. Yes, if you leave the room you -can- cure them. However, each one still takes an individual salve application, and you're likely dealing with other affs at the same time. Yes, you can reset biles in-room without actually curing them, so they're manageable. The point stands, however, that praenomen are very, very powerful even with the loss of their ent.

If nothing else, they are likely the single most versatile class in the game.

Eh, I never stated that biles were negligible. But the fact remains that they are curable by leaving the room and are the only real source of salve-balance pressure coming from the class aside from slike/araceae. The real purpose of my post was just to state that I do not believe the class is as "OMG OP" as I have heard folks claim in the past. That assessment comes from not simply playing the class, but having fought against it extensively as a Luminary and a Templar on Bartholomew.

I will agree with you that the class is extremely versatile. My statement that the class requires transcendent Weaponry, Survival, and Vision to reach its full potential was not so much a complaint as a reminder. In reality, it's kind of nice that the class gains four unique abilities (proficiencies, parry, evenom, and weaponbelts) by transcending Weaponry, as opposed to copy cat versions of these abilities being used to pad the class-based skills. Were weapon use to be taken away from the class and replaced with something else, I'd actually be rather bummed.

In general, I believe the Praenomen class is one of the most well-built and timeless classes in the game. It is an original Aetolia class that is still viable despite all of the changes that have occurred in the combat system since its inception. I do believe that spears, rebounding management, the ease at which Sanguis ents can be killed, and blood use in Mentis all need looking at. That aside, I do not believe that the class needs any sort of major overhaul.

Serrice · March 2013

Ahem, Shaman before the series of buffs, thanks.

Illikaal · March 2013

Serrice said:

Ahem, Shaman before the series of buffs, thanks.

I was kidding :P

Xavin · March 2013

If we're going to give serious thought to making minions unkillable, then we will also need to evaluate the strength of each minion. Things like worm would likely need to be reworked entirely because one of the big defenses to how they currently work is the fact that you -can- kill them.

Cabalists and Indorani in particular, but other classes in general, would need to be rebalanced around their now un-killable ents, and some effects would, without a doubt, have to be changed.

Illikaal · March 2013

Certain things like the worm, sure. But for the large majority of them (Chimera, Slime, Crone, etc.) are expected to be constantly active. Frankly, I deal with a full army of ents just fine when I'm killing people. The only reason I exorcise them or kill them is simply for convenience.

Luna · March 2013

What, the worm? Just eat a ration now and then.

Haedyn · March 2013

Going to agree with Xavin here. There is a distinct difference between classes that have a single ent that serves as a conduit for accessing an entire skillset versus a skillset that is made up of several ents that can be summoned at once. Not being able to shake Domination entities, in particular, would be a bit overtop considering the array of hindering abilities that Indorani already have.

Fenrir · March 2013

Black Biles got removed.

Biles are fine.

Don't nerf the class just as I'm gearing up to acquire it you horrible people. :<

Illikaal · March 2013

Haedyn said:

Going to agree with Xavin here. There is a distinct difference between classes that have a single ent that serves as a conduit for accessing an entire skillset versus a skillset that is made up of several ents that can be summoned at once. Not being able to shake Domination entities, in particular, would be a bit overtop considering the array of hindering abilities that Indorani already have.

Some of the entities that Indorani share in conjunction with Domination to Cabalists probably needs to be looked at anyhow. A few minions don't pose much of a threat (Firelord and Gremlin for example) vs a Cabalist than an Indorani. Indorani can take advantage of the high damage that firelord outputs, and the gremlin + hangedman = hindering that will drive you insane.

It's just one of those little oversights like Daru and Sentaari both having access to Mind Kainet, even though Daru don't use Kai at all. It was also a problem with Putrefaction back when Infernals, Cabalists, and Indorani all shared it. Now only Indorani have access to it, because Putrefaction + Full plate = An Infernal that never died to physical damage, and the same went for Cabalists (cause link).

Exodus · March 2013

Complex? Praenomen?

Frenzy and a whisper plus a ghast. But that's old news. We've moved on since those days.

The fact that using weaponry and a venom improves the combat ability of the class, moreso than it does all others, doesn't make it complex - it reveals how broken it is, surely.

Ezalor · March 2013

Its complexity comes from you -needing- a proper aff tracker and at least a partially automated offense to get anywhere. Purely momentum based so spamming macros and/or overlapping afflictions and/or delivering the wrong ones will completely erase all progress made. There's not much variety in what you do - jab/claw/frenzy and dwhisper, repeat infinitely - but working that combo is indeed very complex.

Weaponry has become a completely integrated part of Praenomen offense. It doesn't reveal how broken it is - take away the ability to use a weapon and you'll see Praenomen become the most inept/weakest class in the game. It might not have been what the developers originally intended but its how the class has been shaped and based off entirely for the past...I dunno, almost decade?

Seir · March 2013

When I was a liaison, there was an attempt by Kadvar or... Kaedok or... one of the K's to get Praenomen less dependent on weaponry. I supported it just because it did seem a rather high point of entry for Praenomen to get involved in combat compared to other classes. Unfortunately, I think other liaisons plus Razmael (Severn at the time) rejected it stating that other classes required weaponry too, which the old knights did.

I won't lie when I think Weaponry's abilities should be ultimately thrown in as a mini-skill or we delete Weaponry and throw its abilities into Survival, Vision, etc. I don't think it's fair for Praenomen to have to pour around 1700+ lessons into another skillset to be viable in combat when the bulk majority of classes do not. Some may counter this and argue that they still have Frenzy and Dwhisper, but Dwhisper alone is not enough for them to build up an offense. I mean, I'm sure they could manage but with the way systems are today, I find it highly doubtful.

Xavin · March 2013

It was khezar, and that was when I was trying to push for bloodborn to not need weaponry either. However, I believe the end result was no change for either class.

Hadoryu · March 2013

Ezalor said:

Its complexity comes from you -needing- a proper aff tracker and at least a partially automated offense to get anywhere. Purely momentum based so spamming macros and/or overlapping afflictions and/or delivering the wrong ones will completely erase all progress made. There's not much variety in what you do - jab/claw/frenzy and dwhisper, repeat infinitely - but working that combo is indeed very complex.

Weaponry has become a completely integrated part of Praenomen offense. It doesn't reveal how broken it is - take away the ability to use a weapon and you'll see Praenomen become the most inept/weakest class in the game. It might not have been what the developers originally intended but its how the class has been shaped and based off entirely for the past...I dunno, almost decade?

There's no way you need an automated offense for that. Just good aliases and practice.

I'm willing to bet the whole weaponry dependency issue is well known to the admin and I'm willing to bet they agree vampires shouldn't need to trans weaponry to fight at a decent potential. It's most likely on a list, somewhere, with very, very low priority to fix.

The fix isn't necessarily trivial either. You still needed weaponry as a knight when I was last liaison, because of the passive bonuses of the skill. So either they're going to be going the route of not ever having to need weaponry to fight at full potential for the class, meaning they'd have to practically scrap the skill, or they're going to be going the route of weaponry being an important bonus. Well, as it is, weaponry kind of is a bonus on top of vampire combat.

Luna · March 2013

From doing some testing with Xavin, it appears that with a high-speed short blade you can get speeds that match a wise dwisper at around 900 lessons sunk into weaponry. That would enable a full praenomen affliction offense, but extremely limited damage output.

Calipso · March 2013

I am very happy this thread was made! I have been chewing on the thought of making something very similar to it.

Legacy classes feel like they are in such a case of dismay, especially when these new shiner classes come out. Naturally patience would be the key to this problem, but when I have approached others about ideas for enhancing a current legacy class, I am told that "such ideas wont work on the new combat system being implented (such as with wounds)" and then this followed by "simply with their current kit, you wont be seeing any usable changes". When looking at classes like Cabilist, I see so many basic old abilities and style of combat that simply dont have a place anymore in the evolving combat of Aetolia. This brings me back to my original comment "stuck between a rock and a hard place". It really feels like nothing can be done and we must grind our teeth through it

. (I've begun considering changing class to one of the updated ones for the time being until the other legacy classes get their turn).

Illikaal · March 2013

When I finally came to the realization that Druids were literally capable of doing nothing but autobashing their opponents to death, I just picked up different classes. But druids4lyfe son, so I never dropped it. Instead we got teh awesome Shamans. Be patient. There MIGHT even be band-aid fixes coming in.

Exodus · March 2013

Ezalor said:

Its complexity comes from you -needing- a proper aff tracker and at least a partially automated offense to get anywhere. Purely momentum based so spamming macros and/or overlapping afflictions and/or delivering the wrong ones will completely erase all progress made. There's not much variety in what you do - jab/claw/frenzy and dwhisper, repeat infinitely - but working that combo is indeed very complex.

Weaponry has become a completely integrated part of Praenomen offense. It doesn't reveal how broken it is - take away the ability to use a weapon and you'll see Praenomen become the most inept/weakest class in the game. It might not have been what the developers originally intended but its how the class has been shaped and based off entirely for the past...I dunno, almost decade?

Exactly which class isn't momentum based, that you seem to think is easier to play than Praenomen because of it? You can't in good faith say there's not much variety in what Praenomen does, and still call it complex. Variety is the basis for complexity, and so I put it to you that Praenomen are one of the least complex classes to play, being on the same level as Indorani and Cabalists. (ouch).

Regarding weaponry, the administration has been fine with their using weaponry since they started doing it. It's a different style of combat - one that they weren't envisioned as adopting, due to how strong frenzy use to be. A frenzy and a single whisper, plus a minion, didn't leave you long to do all the curing you needed before the next one came. If the ghast paralysed, then you'd get behind. The fact that weaponry is now a better option, and has been for some time, just shows the lack of interest from everyone to see Praenomen fixed up.

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