Announce #2535 Duiran

2

Comments

  • As someone who left Duiran because he had a feeling crap like this was going to go down sooner or later, I have this to say: All of ya'll screwed up. There is not one person involved in the recent drama in Duiran that is not to blame. All the back-biting and gossiping and rumor mongering that goes on needs to stop. Because if it doesn't, I'm sure that the admin will step in harder and no one in that org is going to be happy with the result, least of all the anyone who thinks this is a victory for their clique of people.

    TragerIllikaalEydis
  • SerriceSerrice the Black Fox
    Hey, as long as I can still buy city/guild credits I'm chill.
     
    Draiman
  • Xavin said:

    As someone who left Duiran because he had a feeling crap like this was going to go down sooner or later, I have this to say: All of ya'll screwed up. There is not one person involved in the recent drama in Duiran that is not to blame. All the back-biting and gossiping and rumor mongering that goes on needs to stop. Because if it doesn't, I'm sure that the admin will step in harder and no one in that org is going to be happy with the result, least of all the anyone who thinks this is a victory for their clique of people.

    I was going to post, but @Xavin did it for me word for word, so.

    Arbre-Today at 7:27 PM

    You're a vindictive lil unicorn
    ---------------------------

    Lartus-Today at 7:16 PM

    oh wait, toz is famous

    Karhast-Today at 7:01 PM

    You're a singularity of fucking awfulness Toz
    ---------------------------
    Didi's voice resonates across the land, "Yay tox."
    ---------------------------

    Ictinus11/01/2021

    Block Toz
    ---------------------------

    limToday at 10:38 PM


    you disgust me
    ---------------------------
    (Web): Bryn says, "Toz is why we can't have nice things."

  • TragerTrager Raiding your underwear drawer.
    Halp, @Toz and @Xavin agreed on something.

    END OF DAYS IN NIGH.
    Indoran'i is back baby. It's go-... Oh.


    DristinKerrynAsaraiiEzalorAvishaiPeriluna
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee
    :s
  • IllikaalIllikaal Pray Area
    edited April 2016
    As somebody that's been a longtime Duiranite, I've seen and rode with Duiran through all of its ups and downs. I've been there throughout all the good times, and the bad, quite literally. If I'm being completely honest, I've always hated Aetolian politics and they've never interested me. That's why I've never ran for any sort office, at least on my own, because I didn't want to get involved in the inevitable political drama. I've only ran for office twice, once on Illidan, once on Jadan. Both times it was requested of me from the city leaders because they felt I would/could secure the spot so that an 'outsider' for lack of a better word wouldn't take it.

    Still keeping it 100, never at any point in my time of playing this game have I felt like a city that i've been in, be it Duiran or Enorian had a fair and balanced leadership. All of them were cliqueish at some point or another. If they weren't all cliqued up, then you had a series of arguments and contestation until it slowly became one clique or another. Now that isn't to say that whichever group was holding office did horrible things, because in fact, many of them did amazing things. However, this was one of the major reasons I never WANTED to run for office or hold any sort of position of power, because I felt like if i wasn't a part of the clique, I'd not have a shot. And if we're all honest with ourselves, this holds very true.

    I'm gonna list a few examples, and please don't take these as a personal attack. As I said previously, some cliques facilitated healthy environments for their cities which is great. Still, it was very clear and obvious they helped each other acquire and maintain power.

    There was the Sibatti era, as Seir mentioned, with Sibatti, Pilar, Kiyotan, Seir, Lin, and that one other dude who's name I forget.

    Then there was the Bahir era with Xavin, Arbre, Elwyn, and Mariena, for the most part.

    As for Enorian, there was Edhain's squad, with Edhain, Rehan, Yos, and whatever other Paladins were in the Guild under Edhain (I can't think of their names right now.)

    As far as I can tell, all three of these groups did great things with their respective cities across their tenure. But I personally felt it intimidating asf if anyone dared to challenge them if they felt like they could do a better job. Great examples of why cliques aren't all bad.

    But then I remember from a really good friend of mine telling me that he felt Nahasa's tenure of Spinesreach was the literal worst he'd ever experienced. That was quite a long time ago, but if I remember correctly, she had a clique in place too. He said she would be extremely toxic towards citymates for no real reason, and do things like disfavour people for simply saying hello over CT. He showed me a log of how afraid people were to talk over the city channel so much so that no citytells had been made for RL weeks. Great example of why cliques can be incredibly problematic.

    I guess my point is, I really think that @Razmael (and any other administration that helped facilitate the idea) made perhaps the most intelligent decision ever by changing Duiran's leadership to be the way it is. I think somebody previously stated that it very well could possibly set the tone for other cities, and I completely agree with that. It's much harder to powergrab and maintain over several orgs rather than just one, and it'd facilitate a much more healthy and versatile environment. I think all the other cities should follow suit just to eliminate any future problems.
    "And finally, swear to Me: You will give your life to Dendara for you are Tiarna an-Kiar."
    IshinZsadistBrynnMarienaAvishaiFanicoJules
  • I had no idea this was going on. It makes Midkemia seem tame.
  • Shachalai said:

    @Serrice: Exactly.

    That's just the thing. This thread, beyond being a useful point for venting, isn't going to accomplish anything of note. No one involved thinks that it's their fault, and no one is going to be convinced that it is their fault. People already have reasons for blaming other people, and those other people have reasons for blaming right back. Argument, especially angry argument, rarely changes minds - it just entrenches people in their existing preconceptions.

    It's easy to conclude that this thread isn't going to be useful. It's also easy to conclude that without more direct action (possibly taking place without being advertised), the problem's just going to keep manifesting itself differently. Mechanics just change the rules. Any set of rules can be metagamed. A solution is outside the scope of the topic and forum rules.


    FeirenzDristinDraiman
  • DemarcusDemarcus Black Flagon Inn
    Heh, I guess Duiran isn't close enough to the ocean to sink with giant alien worms...
    KonnornDidi
  • Fezzix said:

    Shachalai said:

    @Serrice: Exactly.

    Stuff and things.



    image
    KerrynIshinFezzix
  • SerriceSerrice the Black Fox
    I didn't, someone explain =(
     
  • edited April 2016
    Serrice said:

    I didn't, someone explain =(

    It's from Blazing Saddles, a Mel Brookes movie. Here's a clip:



    (Clip that leads to the above one:

    Edit: And for good measure:
    image
    RiluoFezzix
  • edited April 2016
    Can I just say that after watching the meeting that Duiran had last night, where a god had to repeatedly tell people to quit complaining about the Speaker elections because anyone -could- have jumped into them but they all chose not to, where someone repeatedly ducked around a muting by using letters to dig at one person in particular, where the exact group that was the -cause- of the changes to Duiran's structure refused to be productive at all...I have come to the conclusion that the game damn well may be better off if the org is nuked. You've got a group of people who are trying to move forward and a group of people that are so blinded by this blend of ic and ooc hatred (mostly in the Sentinels, from what I can tell), that they're not willing to recognize that when you have five gods coming to you in-character and saying 'hey, something's wrong. let the people who are trying to fix it fix it' you should listen because they can just as easily nuke Duiran to the ground if things don't get better.

    Either that or what happened to one person in particular last night needs to happen to the rest of the people refusing to let the people that were elected do what they were elected to do and what the admin have instructed them to do needs to happen to the rest of the trouble makers. This crap is beyond childish.

    Spoilers: the admin have stated that tossing out toxic individuals from orgs is the right call.

    ZsadistMarienaKerrynFezzixRelandrocAvishai
  • MarienaMariena By a lake.
    I would like to add something that happened last night, during an ousting that upset a small group of people:

    (Speakers of Duiran): Razmael says, "For what it's worth, you made the right decision to kick out
    toxic members of the council that aren't contributing anything. I can't protect you from IC
    repercussions of that, but if people start filing issues at you for kicking them out of the council
    due to toxic behaviour, I'll happily dismiss them."

    (Speakers of Duiran): Razmael says, "And you can feel free to quote that at people too."

    While we understand that we can not be protected from IC ramifications, we would like to point out that this toxic blend of rumor mongering, outright hatred for a singular person, and constant plotting to have the speakers turn against one another is ridiculous and harmful to the game in general.

    I can't think anyone at this point is enjoying this sort of rp. At this point it doesn't FEEL like roleplay. It feels like an all out war until people are put into place who will not go for what the Admin want Durian to be.

    We want to help Duiran. We are trying to do as the Admin have stated we should do, both in Townhall, posts, and countless warnings over city, in the meeting itself, and beyond.

    I don't know what else you want from us.


    KerrynIllikaalRasaniRelandrocAvishai
  • This is what Duiran should do:


    (Oasis): Benedicto says, "There was like 0.5 seconds between "Oh hey, they're in area. That was quick." and "OMFG THEY'RE IN THE AREA STAHP STAHP!""


    EmelleKerrynMarienaSolariaIshinAlexinaRiluoXavinAvishai
  • It is sad that the meeting which was intended to give the people of Duiran what they wanted insight into what the Speakers were working on, a chance to see some of the ideas, to voice their concerns over the ideas, add to those ideas or even agree with the ideas devolved into another endless run of personal attacks and demands of removal, and barely if any time was actually focused on the ideas presented.

    Not only did a god step in an state plainly that there was no wrong doing done in the election process for the one Speaker, still the demands kept on to replace her on grounds of she stole the election or appointed herself to the position. In the end though had that person done what was being accused of them, I do believe that is where you could issue. I am pretty sure that threatening a player with removal from a guild for joining an election or contesting you is something that can be issued, removing a player from a guild for contesting you merely because they contested you I believe is also something that the Admin would not look favorably on.

    It is almost to the point now where the three of us are saying why are we even bothering, if our ideas are not going to be looked at, if the players can not act in a mature way and realize the seriousness of the situation they are in and would rather take out an entire organization to satiate their lust for blood in their witch hunt against this one player, there is no point in even trying to put forth an effort to make the changes to rebuild Duiran as the Admin have directed with the guidance they have offered, because quite frankly as things are going its just going to be destroyed anyway, but I guess it will be worth it because at least that one person will no longer be in a position of authority anymore.
    KerrynXavinAvishai
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee
    Contesting is a pretty immutable tool. No one can stop you from doing it, you can't be kicked out WHILE doing it. If you feel too intimidated to do that, because someone is too "powerful" to contest or intervene against, well, that's politics for you. The fact that you have that mindset is coming close to affirming their authority or perceived influence in my opinion.

    If you're going to cast aspersions on your leader, and stir up muck/trouble, then contest, don't be surprised if you're ousted when you lose that election. Heck if you're spending time doing that regardless, insubordination is enough of a reason to be ousted in the absence of an election. No one wants to put up with a member of their guild, city, whatever, who just tries to start drama or veer conversations into arguments. People who spend all their time calling other people out are not an asset. Heck even people who just spend all their time questioning decisions but have no real input are on thin ice.
    KerrynMarienaXavinFezzix
  • Honestly, and I've said this to one of the speakers already but I'm going to put it here just so it's out in the open, its getting to the point where most reasonable people aren't going to be blaming Duiran's leaders if they start kicking people out of the org over some of this stuff.

  • And I for one want no part of the people getting booted when it starts happening. If you can't play nice with Duiran I sure don't trust you with my beloved orgs!

    Arbre-Today at 7:27 PM

    You're a vindictive lil unicorn
    ---------------------------

    Lartus-Today at 7:16 PM

    oh wait, toz is famous

    Karhast-Today at 7:01 PM

    You're a singularity of fucking awfulness Toz
    ---------------------------
    Didi's voice resonates across the land, "Yay tox."
    ---------------------------

    Ictinus11/01/2021

    Block Toz
    ---------------------------

    limToday at 10:38 PM


    you disgust me
    ---------------------------
    (Web): Bryn says, "Toz is why we can't have nice things."

    IshinZsadistXavinRasaniAvishaiFaerah
  • Pretty much what @Toz said. If people start getting booted from Duiran for being toxic, I don't expect any of the other three city-orgs will be all that welcoming.

  • Honestly, watching it go from one witch hunt to another makes it really, painfully obvious that, despite the many claims that various leaders were the problem (Pilar, I know, was the popular one to complain about), that group will be unhappy with anyone they can't bully into doing what they want or someone who encourages their behavior in some way.
    IshinAvishaiOrisae
  • TeaniTeani Shadow Mistress Sweden
    I confess to mostly having heard sporadic pieces of information/gossip/spewed venom when it comes to this conflict. I barely know -any- particulars and try to consider all of it one-sided nonsense no matter where it comes from. Sometimes, I suppose, it pays off not particularly belonging to a certain clique, as I can ignore it and just play my game. At the same time it's rather frustrating not to know who the Admin really considers to be the more toxic people here, so I can distance myself from that even more.

    I'm in the game for a good time, much like most other players, I guess. Hearing talk about totalitarianism and outright harassment is quite scary, especially considering the Admin are supposed to safeguard against at least one of these things. That is what shrubbing and bans are for, no?

    I really hope things calm down and that people can start acting like human beings, rather than disconnecting themselves from their actions, just because they're all safe from harm behind a screen or a made up internet identity.



  • edited April 2016
    I don't think the Administration should get rid of Duiran.

    That said, if the Administration wants to move Duiran in a certain direction - a decision that is causing a lot of latent anguish to surface - then the Administration should consider taking over Duiran for a bit (via denizen) to move them along to wherever the Administration feels they need to go. Doing so would take the players - and their bad blood - out of the situation, and over time the players who shine (via merit and hard work - not name value or the fact that they have been around for forever) can be given the reigns back again.

    One direction given by a third party that both cliques can either choose to follow or not follow (and leave), might be the best solution.

    Edit: Fixed my 'it's 7am' English.
    IshinXandrenEydisXeniaRasaniAvishai
  • Planthopper coup into martial law, anyone?

    Arbre-Today at 7:27 PM

    You're a vindictive lil unicorn
    ---------------------------

    Lartus-Today at 7:16 PM

    oh wait, toz is famous

    Karhast-Today at 7:01 PM

    You're a singularity of fucking awfulness Toz
    ---------------------------
    Didi's voice resonates across the land, "Yay tox."
    ---------------------------

    Ictinus11/01/2021

    Block Toz
    ---------------------------

    limToday at 10:38 PM


    you disgust me
    ---------------------------
    (Web): Bryn says, "Toz is why we can't have nice things."

  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee
    edited April 2016
    Things are working out ok, just have to keep nipping bad buds and trying to keep the discourse constructive. You can't have a gift Rome and keep two in the bush too. Best to look at this point as BUILDING not just maintaining an org. I've been trying to belt out some of my more inspirational words and to have opinions on things, and others are doing better too I think. Hey we all have rivals and people we don't like but maybe it's healthier to at least PRETEND we like them. If they are going to make some aspect of the game better you should probably just be like "AUGUGH FINE WHATEVER DO YOUR THING" I mean lots of us have been playing this game long enough that we have HISTORY and even VALID rivalries and whatevers, and those things can really just keep piling up. But might be time to forget you had some drama in 2009.
    XeniaAvishai
  • Rivals and stuff are fine in character. It's when all this OOC stuff gets dragged in, people clearly talking out of game to try to ruin somebody just because they don't agree with them IC is when it becomes an issue. IC conflict is what rp is based on, but at this point the troublemakers in Duiran need to realize that their toxic RP may very well cost them the org they're claiming they love. When Admin have to come in in the form of gods and tell you to knock it off, you're taking it WAY too far and you need to take a step back. I mean, Duiran has had people leave the org over the toxicity, and that's a shame. Players pick where they go for a reason, because they think it'll be fun, and yet they basically get strongarmed out by people who can't keep their bad behavior in check.
  • RiluoRiluo The Doctor
    edited April 2016
    @Liska


    It has caused several people to leave and it is not going to change in a hurry due to the ig political system that allows for power to shift around within a select few. It has been around always in one form or another but the last year it has hit a all time low with metagaming being used to force people out of the game to benefit a select few.

    What can be done?

    Not a lot given the climate and the lack of accountability on both levels of the game.

    Abhorash says, "Ve'kahi has proved that even bastards can earn their place."

  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee
    edited April 2016
    I don't really think this side of this discussion is really all that close to the reality. I can assume in 99% of these cases of "metagaming" no issues were filed, or things were just not as clear cut or mafia-motivated as you would imagine. Admin are not as omniscent as you might imagine. It's easier than you would think for them to just not KNOW you're being harassed, especially if it's OOC. Man, they totally care, like, they hate that crap! But especially since that whole "We're not spying on you all the time anymore" change you can imagine someone sending you mean tells is probably way under their radar. We all hate filing issues or whatevers but sometimes you gotta.

    BUT that being said, You usually have to burn a lot of bridges before people as a WHOLE start turning on you. There's no vast conspiracy to drive people away. Most players are actually pretty cool dudes. There ARE problems for sure, but I don't think they're as endemic or even as ill-intentioned as you imagine. Heck tho, none of this really has to do with the problems Duiran was having, which was a lot more to do with clashing visions and people who just couldn't argue or work constructively together who kinda went OFF THE RAILS. It's not to say there were NO bad apples involved, but we're talking a pretty small/vocal minority here. It's true that perhaps something more DIRECT could have been done to curtail those people in specific I think. But I can see why trying for systemic changes instead might be more wise in the long term.

    Like I don't want to go off on a tangent here but it's probably more constructive to shift/build support for more favorable leaders if you think someone is somehow DOMINATING your political scene in a negative way. You can't just be an angry lone wolf and expect your iconoclasm to stick with anyone else. I mean people are going to immediately flock to a better alternative, but if some vast majority prefers someone else it's probably pretty clear they're a cooler dude than you think.

    Also I figured out how to do weird emoticons so. :cookie:
    ArbreRiluoSolariaEmelleXavinIshinDraiman
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