Age of Dawn

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  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The shift in emphasis boils down to which comes first/has stronger power of identity: the guild or the city. I am not really active in enorian so I can't comment either way in how that falls but some food for thought.
  • SaroshSarosh Over the RainbowMember Posts: 95 Immortal
    edited January 2015
    Unfortunately @Kylan‌ was unavailable for this discussion, but the leadership of the Daru who were present and have continued to work with these ideals in game seemed quite favourable to the approach I offered them ICly, I would touch base with them IG, to save from blathering on with ForumRP here, but I assure you, this has been covered in a way in which Kylan might find easier to understand should it be approached in game..
    NolaIshinKylan
  • SarkisSarkis Member Posts: 108 ✭✭✭
    The Daru, from what I can tell, have been offered an opportunity to be involved in the development of Sabaelism as a device for the City to become more flexible as an entity separate from the Religion(s) it is home to. It seems like they've, so far, refused to be actively involved with that, or have not been present consistently to be relied upon for input. Sabaelism isn't going to destroy the Daru. Sabaelism, in theory, has very little to do with the Guild of the Daru. And even then, Sabaelism would very much have a place in it for the strict, hardline types the Daru tends to produce.

    Plato's statement about the Age of Dawn and the like was way out of left field to begin with (though interesting on a theoretical level), and the topic of the thread is clearly more about how much the Daru think they will fit (or not fit) into the development of Sabaelism for the city. It seems more of a case of making a mountain out of a molehill, as Sabaelism is not a set doctrine yet and still very much being developed and the Daru are jumping the gun.
    ArekaNolaMelanthaErzsebet
  • IshinIshin Retired Lurker VirginiaMember Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If you guys're constantly trying to stuff it down their throats like it sounds like, then it has a -lot- to do with the guild of the Daru.
    Tell me and I forget, teach me and
    I remember, involve me and I
    learn.
    -Benjamin Franklin
    NolaSarkisErzsebet
  • ArekaAreka Drifting in a sea of wenches' bosomsMember Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It hasn't been a 'you guys'. We've made offers of clan spots for people who want to help which have mostly been turned down save for Melantha needing to get a medal for another clan spot (and even that has been a matter of weeks now).

    Otherwise, some of the Gods have had talks with them.

    While the conversation at Four Corners the other day was a bit pushy, it is beginning to feel like there is a want to be offended and to grip onto walls of angst. I know my timing is weird right now, but it would be great if you could spend even half as much effort IC working with us on finding a resolution rather than clinging and making things more than they are.

    At this point it doesn't feel like it matters what any of us (note, us who are actually making the religion and working on it in the clan that multiple offers of joining have been made of) say, you've made up your mind and the rest is white noise, which is pretty frustrating.

    Have you talked to Dato who is Cardinal? Have you talked to Kerryn? What about Rivas, for you Auresians?

    image
    Sarkis
  • NolaNola Member Posts: 688 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I really wouldn't want to have to start quoting incidents from the game that were given only to Daru eyes, since you want to believe that we're making some part of our grief with the situation up, or that it wasn't that big of a deal. It didn't involve your guild, but I'm sure if you had been put in a similar situation, you wouldn't sit idly, quietly by.

    All of us who've spoken about our discontent have been civil and reasoned why. We're not attempting to incite you to rage or the defensive. This has been our experience with the event, but the event -itself- we don't have any issue with, as we've said - the only issue we have is how we've been treated on the matter, and how it's suffocating and imposing upon our freedoms as a guild, in so far as our beliefs go - which is the largest part of the guild, what makes it what it is. Like has been said, since that was overlooked apparently, was that various leaders have been working with Auresae to ensure some kind of compromise, but that was after having to fight tooth and nail about it. Four Corners was one thing, being threatened with extinction, another, being called blasphemers and heretics - the list isn't limited to that one public incident. Most of the trouble we have had, is from the Divine, and because it is from the Divine it is much more difficult to overlook it or even move past it. Because they're Divine.

    Shouldn't have to be expected to participate in something that.. really doesn't.. affect the Daru on a fundamental level. As a CITY, Enorian is working on it, and as GUILDS, it was the guilds who are now participating's CHOICE to become involved - The Daru wasn't really given a free choice, it was much closer to harassment. This is our RP, it's not about how much or how little work has been put into it. It's about what is right for the Daru.

    Those are our complaints, but we've made efforts to move on from them. Airing them out here, allows a better perspective on an OOC level about how it affected us and how it was taken. I think feedback from the community is important, and we're apart of this community.

    I'm not answering those last questions - feel free to ask them ICly, where they belong.
    IshinAniseErzsebet
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm just curious at the rationale behind this. It sounds like you guys are trying to create a definition for enorian for people to fit into? Why is one needed? 
    ArekaIshin
  • NolaNola Member Posts: 688 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2015
    From my own understanding - and I could be missing the mark on the reason behind its conception - it seems like it was multi-purpose.

    1. Easier for newcomers to grasp in full what Enorian is about
    2. To eliminate, or at least diminish, the 'too zealous to be healthy' outlook and actions that were causing issues in Enorian for a while.
    3. Uniting it.
  • MelanthaMelantha Member Posts: 122 ✭✭✭
    @Areka ...I'm sleepy-posting, so I hope you'll forgive me for being blunt. Starting with what immediately jumped out at me, 'a little pushy' is a masterwork of understatement. And we're Zealots. If people push, we close ranks and push back. As for the multiple invites, it feels like they were made too late for any meaningful input to have been made on our part. The medal is something I've been too broke to purchase and had to bash up the gold and make up the difference in city points, which suffered from a bit of confusion this last cycle. And yes, I've spoken with @Rivas, and as I recall, he felt cut out of the loop. More I could probably say, but screw it. Sleep time. Messaged Phen about the credits, at least.
    Avatar courtesy of Eleanor. Thank you!
    ~~

    image




    ~~
    Always interested in knowing how I'm doing!
    Ishin
  • ArekaAreka Drifting in a sea of wenches' bosomsMember Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2015
    Again, I will state, as I did before: It is to separate the zealous/religious RP into its own confined space, so that Enorian can be a city and welcome a wider range of RP and characters without the toxicity of "You aren't white enough", while also providing a sanctioned outlet for the zealous RP that was otherwise bleeding over.

    There isn't an 'event'. There's been several RL months of work and discussion and now some Gods are speaking up about it IC. The only thing it is IMPOSING ON THE GUILDS is 'please don't deter people from joining in when this is released in full, if they want to do so'. That is it.

    It is doing nothing else to the guilds. It has no other relationship to the guilds than that guilds and the city have mixed membership. That is it.

    It certainly isn't going to be part of the dogma of Templar - merely if Templar who wish to have more of the zealous RP want an outlet, that's a good place to go.

    EDIT: TO be -EVEN CLEARER- The Age of Dawn and city purpose of purging Undeath has been around since before I joined Enorian. It is not a new thing. It is not a sudden thing. It was something that deterred me from joining way back when. It is something that was around even when Moirean was a citizen during Tralendargate. It Is. Not. New.

    This is to balance against that and reclaim space for the other shades of roleplay in the city - those very things you, Moirean, among others, threw such a fight over about how suffocating Enorian was. We are trying. With very little input or initiative or anything beyond complaints and sitting on hands.
    image
    Ishin
  • NolaNola Member Posts: 688 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Without diverging all the details about our experience in full, it's hard for me to really bring home the point of 'that's not what we were shown', so I'm left with expressing my discontent on how we, as a guild, were approached - yes, as a guild, as a whole.

    I can't really say much more than what I've already said, so I think this is where I end my piece!

    Ishin
  • KerrynKerryn The Black Flagon InnMember Posts: 270 ✭✭✭✭
    Actually... one of the Daru secretaries has been a member for some time. I inducted her as she was a Slyphian representative RL months ago. So it really wasn't 'sprung' on you guys as suddenly as you might think.

  • SarkisSarkis Member Posts: 108 ✭✭✭
    edited January 2015
    Nola said:

    From my own understanding - and I could be missing the mark on the reason behind its conception - it seems like it was multi-purpose.

    1. Easier for newcomers to grasp in full what Enorian is about
    2. To eliminate, or at least diminish, the 'too zealous to be healthy' outlook and actions that were causing issues in Enorian for a while.
    3. Uniting it.

    That's the condensed reasoning behind it, yes. Actually, very well put overall.

    Guilds only figure in in-so-much as they want to, but it's more or less what Areka's stated, that the only thing that's really being asked of them in regards to Sabaelism is "don't stop your guild members from participating if they want to in it". The diversity of the underlying teachings of it have plenty of wiggle room for all the wonderful diversity that can be attained from differing philosophical and religious view points, without being a nightmarish quagmire.
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight SchoolMember Posts: 2,362 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This all sounds kind of silly to be honest from an outsiders point of view.
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
    JensenFaerahIshinErzsebet
  • RinaRina Member Posts: 7
    edited January 2015
    I'm not sure what's going on with the Sabelism part (haven't done much except bashing), but from what I can gather, it sounds like they want to move the main belief system from individual Guilds into the City. I've played Lusternia for a while before, so it sounds to me like a move toward the structure I remember they have over there. The main belief structure for all the organisations there is tied centrally to the City, and not individual Guilds. Each Guild still has its own identity, but all the Guild identities are enveloped under the main City's. There is no Guild that can say it is separate from the City - their identity and their goals are all in-line with the City's and they all work together as part of the same team (the City) to achieve their goals.

    What Guilds can do is define how they work on these goals, which many use their skillsets to help define. One can take on the role of spiritual guides (priests) for the rest of the city, another can guard a specific aspect that is important to the City. This aspect can be either physical or theoretical, like a concept or a tenet, or it can be an actual physical part of the City, like a landmark of some sort. But all of them subscribe to the City's overarching ideals and concepts, and all of them help defend all the aspects of the City, even if it's not the aspect they define themselves to be the primary guardians of. At the same time, they maintain a separate identity from each other, and defer to each other on matters which might fall under the other Guild's jurisdiction.

    The idea of a Guild separating from a City under such a structure is innately anathaema. There is no such possibility - they are parts of a whole, if they leave, they simply cease to exist as the part that they are supposed to be. If a Guild ever does completely leave the City under such a structure, the concept the City is founded on will disintegrate and cease to exist as well, since the whole is also predicated on the participation of the sum of its parts.

    I suspect Sabelism is probably not aiming to push this far, but perhaps something similar that is a less extreme. To separate certain concepts from all the Guilds and amalgate it into a whole that everyone can take part in, even if they are not part of that Guild, so a Templar can subscribe to the same Purity concept of a Daru's teachings, but perhaps not uphold it as their primary concern the way they might do with Honour, and vice-versa. At the same time, to allow each Guild to continue to define themselves as separate identities while also participating in the City concept as a whole, allowing members of their Guilds to subscribe to an ideal that is represented in the larger concept without having to re-write their identity as part of their Guild.

    In practice, it would mean you could be a super-zealous Templar if you wanted, because that is a part of Sabelism (am I even spelling this word right?) teaching, and that's something the Templars are a part of. Similarly, you could have a much less zealous, more practical (or jaded) Templar, who is more concerned with saving lives rather than killing undead, because that might also be a part of that over-arching ideal, but neither of them would be any less a Templar, or any more a Daru for their character choices.
    Ishin
  • NolaNola Member Posts: 688 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You're verrrry close. It's more about the Divine's teachings than the guild's, though.

    A portion of the guilds (ie - the Daru) already take some of their teachings (Purity, Perfection) from the Divine (Auresae/Rahn).

    I think the phrase 'a housing for all religion under the Light' was most appropriate.
    Ishin
  • ArekaAreka Drifting in a sea of wenches' bosomsMember Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Rina - it has nothing to do with the guilds themselves, beyond letting members join in if they want to. There is zero requirement for anyone to join, only a request for guilds to not forbid/deter people from doing so if that is what they want to do.

    It's purely a matter of divorcing something that has been part of the city into its own confined space and away from the rest of city practices. Containment to open up more options and provide more opportunities for RP, but for the different non-zealous shades that the city SHOULD have, as well as for non-Daru and non-Luminaries to partake in that kind of RP with its own lore, structure, and outlet.

    But for the last bit of what you said - yes, it provides some more options. You can be more zealous or not as zealous as your character dictates, and have options for avenues to pursue in that expression and activity. You can play a zealous Ascendril or Templar or what-have-you and join in with Sabaelism and go on a fiery crusade, or continue on as we otherwise have been. Similarly, a lot of the pressure to be the CITY OF LIGHT AND PURGING UNDEATH RAWRG is to shift towards the religion where it belongs, so that people who aren't as sure, who aren't as pure, who aren't as strict or dutiful, can still be part of the city. We might just have some 'generally good guys who can be pretty shifty' and they can have more space, or 'ambivalent about undeath generally existing but doesn't want to align with it, just wants to protect people', etc.
    image
    IshinSarkis
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Areka - uhh not sure why you're randomly being hostile to me and drawing me into this and downvoting. I've said that I don't keep up with Enorian stuff and asked two questions to try to learn more/clarify what it this change is, based on what had been posted.
    Ishin
  • LucieLucie Member Posts: 19 ✭✭
    I'm going to be honest... I was super excited to get into playing Lucie. The idea of playing a zealous champion of Light living in the Beacon of Light in a very dark world was exciting - and my interactions with the passionate members of the Daru were what captivated me and kept me going. Then that priest made the post about Saebalism and the wind really was taken out of my sails... And I have struggled to feel engaged ever since.
  • ArekaAreka Drifting in a sea of wenches' bosomsMember Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm not being hostile, I am sorry if I come across as that. I am frustrated though, so may have more of an edge than I intend.

    I disagreed because it didn't seem like you were actually reading our posts, where (those of us that have been working on this project) rather clearly stated it's not a purpose for Enorian but separating the multi-RL-year-existing-bleedover into its own space, and something that you have been very vocal about in the past.

    I kind of feel like I'm taking crazy pills at the moment, and that there's this building emotion and assumption on things that simply isn't there, and that any attempts to clarify or say what's actually going on are being utterly ignored for a bandwagon of angst.

    Issues were voiced, we've been taking steps to address them, and now those steps are being twisted into something they aren't, so it's like, what's the point? Fine, scrap it, have fun, why should I continue to put the time into making something to address a problem if all it's going to be is another tool for unnecessary IC and OOC dramatics and antagonism?

    This entire ordeal is being painted to be some guild-crushing monster of domination when it isn't anything remotely close to that and it seems like that's the only story you guys want to hear, so I'll just step back and let all of you figure out how to clean up the mess you've been very happy to be vocal about in the past.
    image
  • IshinIshin Retired Lurker VirginiaMember Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Lucie said:

    I'm going to be honest... I was super excited to get into playing Lucie. The idea of playing a zealous champion of Light living in the Beacon of Light in a very dark world was exciting - and my interactions with the passionate members of the Daru were what captivated me and kept me going. Then that priest made the post about Saebalism and the wind really was taken out of my sails... And I have struggled to feel engaged ever since.

    Don't give up, grasshopper. Instead, get Templar class and go join the Daru. ^_^ BEST OF BOTH WORLDS.
    Tell me and I forget, teach me and
    I remember, involve me and I
    learn.
    -Benjamin Franklin
    Melantha
  • NolaNola Member Posts: 688 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think you're taking it all way too personally @Areka, and I'm going to assume that it's because you've been involved and working on this project with a number of other people, and feel likely very happy with the outcome, that it will be beneficial. I understand that.

    It likely will, and none of us have said Saebalism WON'T BE beneficial for the purpose you're intending it.

    You know that feeling you just talked about? About what you're saying being ignored?

    Yeah, I'm getting that feeling right now myself, except, I'm actually understanding to the concept and don't have anything against it, whereas you're taking our dissent - which was formed out of NEGATIVE EVENTS surrounding Saebalism, because, that's how it was more often -presented- to us, and acting as if we're crusading against it.

    Saebalism itself isn't the problem. Your project isn't the problem. It's the presentation that we received. It's the way we were treated, the way we were made to feel as a guild regarding it.

    Yet all the while we never once said - Saebalism is awful, why are they doing this. This is going to destroy us.

    Because it won't. But that doesn't mean that being harassed is okay, either, and something to dismiss - and I'm not saying you're party to that. Most of Enorian isn't actually party to that. Like I said in my very first post - most of our problems came from the Pantheon itself. If it were just other players.. it wouldn't have been so rough on us. But it felt like it was being forced down our throats on a much, much higher level - on such a level that we couldn't refute - and in a lot of cases, it was. Would you be okay with that? Would you want to be apart of something that you were forced into? Would you be all right with actual YEARS of your RP being put on the chopping block and downgraded and torn apart to make room for this new belief, to make it work in this structure? To be ridiculed for having.. the same belief you've had since you joined your guild. The same belief you've preached and shared and taught. You didn't change, but everything else seems to have, and everything else is now telling you what isn't right about it, when in reality, there isn't anything WRONG with it as it is. It's just two different ways of telling the same story.

    In the end a lot of it boiled down to, I believe, serious misinterpretations between what was meant and what was said - some of that had to do with phrasing. Auresae helped the Daru a lot with that, just as the Daru helped clear a lot of the mist around their own stuff.

    I don't know how to be more clear about it. Now I'm feeling like I'm continuing this only to be told that I'm still just complaining, but hey. I tried to make some kind of connection happen, even though I'm really not appreciative of the tone.

    IshinMelanthaErzsebet
  • JensenJensen Corruption's Butcher Member Posts: 1,821 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It sounds like Enorian needs to hop on Dam's boat, set sail for a tropical island, and take a vacation to let this settle down a bit. Everything goes smoother with rum and sunshine
    image
    IshinEmelle
  • TenshyoTenshyo Member Posts: 412 ✭✭✭✭
    From what I've been informed of both IC and OOC, things are shaping up nicely, waters being cleared so to speak, getting people on the same page. On a more personal approach.

    I will echo @Nola‌ a bit here, and agree, with how it was first handed to the bulk of us, it seemed rather force fed, and what not. I personally was confused with it.

    But as mentioned above, it DOES appear to be working itself out for everybody. Which is good.

    Ishin
  • IrruelIrruel Member Posts: 670 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2015
    Never mind - two pages late
    IshinAshmer
  • PlatoPlato Member Posts: 62 ✭✭
    Ashmer said:

    Aishia said:

    Whoah when did @Ashmer become Americas next top combatant!?

    Seriously. This was my face:

    image

    Also his face when I beat him
    MalokIshinJensenRivasNola
  • PlatoPlato Member Posts: 62 ✭✭
    for your entertainment the killing blow
    You nod gravely at your Guardian Angel, whose wings flare suddenly as an alien and frightening look of power sweeps across her face. With one hand, she reaches forward and as her hand touches Ashmer's chest, it flares brightly, impossibly, white, and enters his breast. The Angel's eyes roll back in its head in ecstasy as she rips the soul from Ashmer's body. Ashmer collapses without a sound; his body now nothing more than a useless husk.
    You have slain Ashmer.
    MalokIshinJensenAldricRivas
  • DristinDristin Member Posts: 625 Immortal
    Plato said:

    for your entertainment the killing blow
    You nod gravely at your Guardian Angel, whose wings flare suddenly as an alien and frightening look of power sweeps across her face. With one hand, she reaches forward and as her hand touches Ashmer's chest, it flares brightly, impossibly, white, and enters his breast. The Angel's eyes roll back in its head in ecstasy as she rips the soul from Ashmer's body. Ashmer collapses without a sound; his body now nothing more than a useless husk.
    You have slain Ashmer.

    I think you mistakenly posted this here instead of in the "Owned" thread. Please make sure to stay on-topic. Thanks!
    image
    Malok
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