Ankyrean Anguish - Aetolia-based RAGE



  • TragerTrager Raiding your underwear drawer.Member Posts: 574 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Indoran'i is back baby. It's go-... Oh.

  • EleanorEleanor FOR SCIENCE Member Posts: 818 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2014
    Xenia said:

    You quickly devour a peron melon.

    You quickly devour a small chakda fruit.

    You quickly devour a firm belarit.

    Why is there no flavor text for these! I need to know the official word on what these taste like!

    Chakda fruits are sort of like a plum with a faintly chocolatey taste.

    Peron is creamy with an exotic-fruit tang on the aftertaste.

    Belarit is kinda sweet and kinda spicy.

    Don't ask me how I know these.

  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I rage that the bough - a BASHING item - is locked behind a stupid PK system. I want to hunt elds more effectively. I have to sit and unicorns deal with PK in order to get the bough - and, you know, my best hunting class is Carnifex, a class that is absolutely worthless. So I have to basically just sit and let people kill me if anyone else comes in, so I don't waste my bashing buff uptimes.
  • StathanStathan Hot springsMember Posts: 342 ✭✭✭
    @Toz I think, that may have been the best way to word how a lot of people are feeling. I agree with a lot of things you said and I do remember the days when I had a list of aliases and had to use them to cure my afflictions because I didn't have auto curing. Prior to pre-restore stopping limb offenses from destroying everyone, and hell, prior to luminaries. The game was fun, and now, I use it more like a glorified chatboard while being fairly active in game. When I got elected in Eno, the first thought I had was "oh son of a unicorns what the unicorns did I run for?!" because I realized it basically meant I had to log in more.

    So, Sir, I applaud your honesty and thank you for saying that for those of us that couldn't figure out a way to word it without coming across as whiny no matter how you look at it. It was well said.
  • IngramIngram AlaskaMember Posts: 306 ✭✭✭✭
    Thank you for articulating what I thought. It pretty much summarizes in full why I'm following in your footsteps.
  • FaerahFaerah Member Posts: 218 ✭✭✭✭

    Thanks @Toz. Your post so perfectly says what I have been too frustrated to adequately express. 

  • JayceJayce Member Posts: 56 ✭✭✭
    Stathan said:

    The game was fun, and now, I use it more like a glorified chatboard while being fairly active in game. When I got elected in Eno, the first thought I had was "oh son of a unicorns what the unicorns did I run for?!" because I realized it basically meant I had to log in more.

    Yes, 100%, yes.

    "I've got a dose of Spiritual Healing right here for you!"
  • MaghakMaghak The heights of Stormcaller CragMember Posts: 255 Immortal
    edited August 2014
    I will make a limited response here as I feel I may be too personally invested in some of the things you've referred to to be entirely fair. As it's the Rage thread I suppose a certain amount of investment is appropriate.

    I personally make every effort to present nonlinear and adaptive events to the best of my ability. To my knowledge, so do all the other volunteers. It's understandable that from your perspective an event that doesn't meet your expectations is railroaded, but every major world event I've conducted or taken part in the past year has been adaptive. Steelhew and the entire war system resulting from it was unplanned and came about in response to the way the cities were reacting to events. Baelak Shipbreaker was largely an effort at throwing a threat at the continent and seeing what you did. Even Nesventesh and the situation on Ulangi at the moment are dependant on what the players do in response to them.

    The Abyss event you have referred to was a patch-over by myself when the original volunteer was unable to complete it; it was a very rushed job and I apologise for what was essentially a bandaid over several glaring potential faults. Even that, though, involved items that were created due to in-character player input.

    I suppose what I'm trying to express is that it's unfortunate that you feel that events are linear, but that your perspective is quite limited and your assessment is based on quite a few misconceptions about what goes on behind the scenes.
  • NolaNola Member Posts: 688 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2014
    Honestly, hearing that from one side of the game here, and then personally having been hearing it on our side - you're not really far off the mark where a good many of us are concerned, and I wouldn't say you're in the minority @Toz.

    A lot of the people I surround myself with tell me they're not having fun anymore, they don't feel like logging in, and from a handful of my guildmates, the only interesting thing to them right now is the Daru and some small rp circles/relationships. There isn't even that much going on with us right now, so I'm pushing to change that with my limited schedule. I've certainly felt this way myself a number of times. I just end up focusing on what I can do to improve it from my side of things, at least, for other people.

    I've been with Aetolia for a long time. It's not the same anymore, that much is certain.. It's not a bad change, necessarily, in a lot of ways. But the more mechanical you make it the less organic it'll be, and that was always the drawing point of the game for me. It was a world unexplored, wonderous and full of unpredictable potential with plenty of mystery left.

    It could also just be that many of us have grown up with the game, and what we weren't aware of as much before, while we're now acutely so - we've built up expectations or standards over the time we've been here, and we don't adapt well to the changes that interrupt our experience and environment because it's unlikely we'll ever get that back, once we move past a certain point. But we crave it, so it boils down to a cycle of recurring disappointment and brief moments of some glimmer.

    So I guess I end up wondering what keeps everyone else playing the game - because maybe that's the answer to it, more than focusing why we feel like we don't want to anymore.

  • YarelYarel Member Posts: 78 ✭✭✭
    edited August 2014
    I took about a two year break from the game. When I came back, I thought I would feel better about playing. We had a new Producer, which I thought was great, and a few more active divines. All great. It didn't take me long to realize that I was still plagued with the notion that nothing I did would ever matter. Like making my mark on the game was impossible. I'm not going to leave anytime soon because the relationships I've developed with some other players keep me coming back.
    @Maghak‌, I am glad to know that most events are not set in stone. Sadly, the game is full of things that make us, the supporters of Aetolia, feel like captives. A good example is the Sciomancer guild. As has been pointed out numerous times before, it is a Bloodloch Guild stuck in Spinesreach. Even before we were the Sciomancers, the Magi guild tried and tried to get moved to Bloodloch, always being told 'Not a chance.' Even attempts to have our newbs given the option of joining Loch from the intro have been denied. This is only a single example, and there may well be Great and Glorious reasons why our guild is stuck where we do not want it to be.... But my point is, surely you can see how such things encourage the notion that we are, as @Toz‌ said, having a story told to us.
  • OletheaOlethea Member Posts: 9

    @Toz‌ - yeah, I get it.

    @Maghak - I can't speak for Toz, but… if we underestimate what it takes to do work behind the scenes, well… that's unfortunate, but that doesn't at all address the real meat and potatoes of Toz' post. To use an analogy… Imagine you were invited to go swimming at the beach by a few friends. You pack things up for the day, get in the car, and drive out to meet them, but when you get there, you find an over-crowded kiddie pool where the ocean should be.

    It does not matter how much work went into building the kiddie pool, how much work goes into maintaining the kiddie pool, or how many staff members are supervising the kiddie pool, ready to answer questions for you. The water is about ankle deep and someone else has already taken a leak in it.

    We understand that you are reluctant to throw new players into the ocean. However, without the fear of drowning, the game just isn't fun for those of is who know how to swim, and without an invested player base, new players aren't going to stick around no matter how easy you make things for them. Between Achaea, Lusternia, and Aetolia I've been running with IRE for eleven years, and I wouldn't have logged in more than once if the first person in Achaea I talked to wasn't totally into their guild and scheming about something or another. And they made me WORK for stuff I wanted.

    People don't value things that are handed to them. They value things they have to work for a little bit - if something takes a little bit of effort, they tend to fight tooth and nail to keep it. 

    Other IREs manage the conflict stuff ok:

    Achaea is IRE's biggest game, and it's full of raids and conflict and stuff, because people are treated like adults that can handle being raided and requirements that make them think a little. In Lusternia, conflict is necessary for org commodities and political away, so there's lots of fighting over villages and things, plus people raid for kicks and lore because every org has a diametric opposite.

    Neither of these games 'dumb things down' for new players. They trust the people who can already swim in the ocean to help people on the beach get used to the water. If you guys aren't comfortable with letting us be the life guards -

    Will you at least give us a bigger pool? Some more elbow room? The most recent event I remember was one where I watched 4 or 5 gods fight in silence while some mortal onlookers insulted one another and made impotent emote attacks and died and then Iosyne and Maghak went off to lick their wounds. I was a spectator. I understand a lot goes on behind the scenes. But it doesn't matter how much goes on behind the scenes if the result is a game that's not fun to play.

  • OletheaOlethea Member Posts: 9

    - please excuse my typos while I'm posting from a cell phone.

    Those of us, rather than those of is -  and political sway, not political away.

  • AarbrokAarbrok Breaking things...For Science San Diego, CAMember Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I can concur, I used to love PK, I used to raid the hell out of cities in Achaea, to the point the Administration had to physically stop me and the friends I played with because a group of six griefed the entire game to the point people were quitting playing, I think I stopped at somewhere around 900 player kills in a summer, just by being an overpowered Bard, and a series of game break tandem PK skills with an amazing curing system that was really unstoppable and all the artifacts I could hoard.

    In Aetolia, do I PK, or ask my friends to code me a system so I can obliterate the competition, no...the rush isnt there for me, if anything I get nervous doing it now because I lost alot of people I enjoyed talking to that I hurt on an OOC level with PK griefing. Things do change, they always kinda settle and find the things you do enjoy and adapt, its a wonderful skill of a human being...if it is not what you are looking for, perhaps there is something else you do not know of yet that can satisfy your gaming needs.

  • IngramIngram AlaskaMember Posts: 306 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2014
    Eleanor said:

    Hey guys. Hey guys. You know what else isn't the same anymore?


    It's one thing to go 'oh man I miss the glory days when things were exciting and it was all a RUSH', but for me? I was awfully goddamn 14 at the time. Of course it was a rush! Everything was new and exciting, and I also thought Dragon Ball Z was the best thing ever and I watched every single episode with rapt attention. I've grown up, my tastes have changed. The game means something different to me now. It is possible to outgrow a thing you enjoy, and I think people who've been playing it for eight years or whatever ought to get a little metacognitive about this while they're composing their posts about how Aetolia sucks these days and it's all the fault of the changes that have gone in.

    There's at least three people in agreement with Toz's points who're hitting thirty, or some years after it. One or two of them have only come here in the last year or two, maybe three. Sometimes a problem aimed at a long-standing entity isn't born from rose-tinted glasses. Sometimes it's just a problem. Relegating all this to age or a passage of time isn't accurate, and it's taking a liberty on others' behalf.
  • AlexinaAlexina the Haunted Soul Member Posts: 851 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2014
    When I think back to when I started playing this game, I do not feel like I was more capable of changing the world around me in a meaningful way. I did not enjoy being killed any more than I do today, and the frustration I felt at losing hours and hours worth of bashing when being repeatedly assaulted and killed was far more disheartening than the casual indifference of these unmeaningful deaths we have today in Aetolia. The first admin-ran arc I participated in was the Dreikathi invasion, and even though its outcome was very much predetermined, most people seemed to enjoy it a lot. Most events in muds have a rough starting point and a rough ending point worked out before they begin unfolding, which is not unique to Aetolia. Most MMOs or other games don't have free-form events at all. Both in muds I've played as well as other online RPG games (Neverwinter Nights, World of Warcraft, etcetera), there are no harsh mechanics to impose upon your enemies. You kill them, they come back after thirty seconds -- you earn prestige/status/respect from your own faction. I don't want to feel like the game is punishing me for playing it. I want to log in and be able to enjoy being part of the story that is Aetolia. Artificial constructs (experience sinks when killed, 15 minutes respawn time, whatever) that causes major setbacks or extensive time spent doing nothing does not make the game more challenging and it does not make me more emotionally invested in the game. I do not think a game needs severe loss to be considered challenging.

    I agree that PK has a mechanical feel to it that I have not really experienced in any other game, whether other muds or regular computer games. I've played two non-IRE muds extensively, and in both PK was the main appeal to the majority of each game's respective playerbase. While basics of combat were simple, things like area layout, equipment, racial/clan bonuses and so on and so forth brought a lot of complexity. IRE combat demands so much in terms of scripting and coding that I've stopped participating in it altogether, both in Aetolia and in Achaea. Now, pitting cities against each other with the Ylem extraction was a great way to defeat the other side. When that system came out, I could participate in something meaningful and enjoyable. These days, lesser combat is one of the few times that I still participate in conflict. Holy wars always seemed to me like a way to prove your devotion to your particular Deity of choice, but I've heard so many complaints about it on the forums that I sometimes wonder if it should just be altogether disabled. It is a shame, really, because orders are generally speaking made up of experienced players with firm beliefs -- this seems like the perfect foundation for interesting, small-scale conflict. Ciem used to cause a lot of group combat as well. It operates exactly the same today as it did five years ago and yet people rarely go there. I remember when there used to be at least 3-4 raids a month, most of which involved multiple people from each side. There are outlets for conflict, but these days it seems the opposition is either non-existent or overwhelming.

    Anyway. I am not really sure how many of you participated in the battle against Grumagh, but that was an event that was really exciting and awesome because it eschewed traditional boss-slaying. The participants had to keep him down with chains and had to interact with these chains with simple commands to avoid him breaking free and killing everyone. It was one of the most thrilling, adrenaline-pumping events I've enjoyed in my mudding career, and I can only hope there will be more things like this in the future.

    So. The main draw for me personally, is that Aetolia as a world is the most free and open role-playing setting I've found. Some people make time fly by. Just try roleplaying with someone like @Serrice, @Rashar, or @Ezalor. I'm still frustrated with a lot of things - in particular, I really think the admin to playerbase communication is somewhat unsatisfactory (although, I must say that @Oleis is making me more optimistic in this regard) - but most of my disillusionment comes from myself and other players, not the setting that the game has to offer. OOC webs and clans make it abdundantly clear that I'm part of a chat room and not an ongoing story. I've stopped investing energy in involving and engaging other characters with my personal doings. I often complain, but rarely contribute with solutions (anyone who listened to me talking about vampire houses and the Dominion would know). I want a lot of the same things as Toz wants. I want to be able to influence things in a meaningful way. I want to log in and be able to feel like if I invest a number of hours, I will be able to push an agenda, or strengthen my guild's/city's position, or something like that. The recent Shadow Essence event really appealed to me initially, because I was doing something that had a tangible affect on the environment (the progress bar in the essencecap). I knew I was working towards an end. I didn't mind that the outcome was not something that we had not anticipated. In fact, I personally think it made the event even more exciting (although I realize this did not appeal to everyone that participated).

    I think @Toz's post was great. It vocalized a lot of things I've been thinking about lately. Essentially, I just have a hard time immersing myself in the game. I don't know. I can't seem to take it very seriously anymore.

    I can't grammar or type so had to fix some stuff.
    Post edited by Alexina on
  • DaskalosDaskalos Credit Whore Extraordinare Rolling amongst piles of credits.Member Posts: 1,516 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2014
    I've been reading this thread, and wasn't going to comment, however, Toz's post was pretty spot on. I last logged into Aetolia 9 days ago and I don't think I'll be back anytime soon. Added together, I've been GM of the Luminaries longer than anyone since the guild was founded. I have the most terms as guildmaster as well. I've been leader of Enorian more combined years than anyone else in the history of the game.

    And none of it matters.

    Time and again I've watched as event after event follows an easy, predictable fashion - either Enorian and the life side are attacked, or we attempt to do something and it blows up in our face. The raid on Bloodloch that @Toz brought up I lead, and as players, we had to know in the back of our head they wouldn't let us drop Moghedu on top of Bloodloch, but we tried anyways. (FYI: The mobs were always going to help, they had one gate, we had the other. We were simply s'posed to be a distraction). Once the event was over, the mhun forgot about Enorian helping them and started killing our allies and basically turned on us, because hey, why not? I've mostly enjoyed my time in Aetolia, and have made some friends along the way, but I've hit a point where there is nothing left for me to do.
    City leadership? Done.
    Guild leadership? Done.
    Order Leaderhip? Done for 3 different orders.
    Minister? At some point I've held them all.
    PK? Did that years ago, and as Toz said, it's now about who's script is better and since you can buy offenses from people, it doesn't even have to be your script.
    Bashing? I'm at a ridiculously high level.

    It's now even at a point where there is nothing left for me to spend -money- on. I'd have to login to be sure (and I'm not doing that) but there is something like 4000 credits sitting on Daskalos, along with 2 pet tokens and a house deed. I already own -4- houses, why do I need a fifth?

    There's no endgame, and quite frankly, we're treading water. New shiny ornaments may distract us from time to time, but often those end as well.

    I spent literal years of my life trying to make the game as enjoyable for the other players in my guilds and cities as I could. I wasn't always successful, and sometimes I was a real unicorns, but my intentions were in the right place. I have done things due to nudgings by the divine that weren't always popular to help them accomplish goals, but I did them. (You guys really didn't think Unity in Life was my idea, did you? It worked because the Orders signed on first... as directed by their gods ;) ).

    At some point, you realize it's all pointless. Death, PK, bashing, it's all pointless. You can be the best in the game at combat and it won't matter. You can be the worst at it and it doesn't matter.

    I'm tired of treading water and feeling as if the work I have done is pointless. I'm tired of feeling as if I'll be left to clean up the next cookie cutter event when the players feel disenfranchised again because it either a) blew up in our face or b) we're playing defensive.

    I'm tired of playing a game that promotes the largest side, gives them mechanical benefits (double credits for houses\guilds), and basically defends the favoritism as 'well, they're the largest faction in the game'. You created the faction that size through your actions.

    Most of you will probably rejoice, but I'm done. I have hit a point where my frustration means I don't care anymore. Nothing I do matters, and I'm tired of the empty promises that things will change. I'm tired of trying to retain players through sheer force of will when they have felt as I do now. I'm tired of being lied to and used when it suits people and demoralized when it doesn't, by players and admin alike. Look at the bright side, there will be a Delos shop opening as soon as the taxes go unpaid and it gets closed, unless the god's player I was holding it for decides to quit playing and takes it back. Whoops.

    Post edited by Daskalos on



    Message #17059 Sent By: Oleis           Received On: 1/03/2014/17:24
    "If it makes you feel better, just checking your artifact list threatens to crash my mudlet."

  • EleanorEleanor FOR SCIENCE Member Posts: 818 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It's not so bad to just decide that's it, you know. You had fun, you don't any more, and that's totally okay!

  • RowenaRowena Member Posts: 228 ✭✭✭
    edited August 2014
    I remember how it was back in the day. Dying was a bigger deal, levelling was harder, supplies were harder to obtain and in general things were far less accessible. It was also busier but I don't think that's because it was harder. I think that's just MUDs in general. Free to play RPGs online are much different these days. In the early days, there was no WoW and graphical MMOs were rare not a dime a dozen. MUDs obviously still have their appeal next to newer games but there is a lot more competition for gamers attention.

    As an older player I spent a little while wondering if any ingredient of old Aetolia made it more appealing than the new because we weren't all diehards looking for a challenge. One reason in particular stuck out. Alignment used to be far more ambiguous. Things were less restrictive and I remember a time when you didn't know exactly who your allies were. As a result of that, conflict arose far more naturally, and not in the sterile manner Toz suggests.

    As players were not railroaded into the light or dark setting there would be an ambiguous Daru that cared solely for purity and light, not the devotion landmarks that were so important to Paladins and Luminaries. You'd have Druids who hated civilization completely and saw Enorian as a colonial power and would side against it. I remember way back when taking a harsher Haern RP and not joining Duiran because Eleusis wasn't part of the "cycle," it was artificial and preserved.

    Back in those days, Ashtan and Spinesreach both housed people that didn't quite fit the cities with more guilds. It made them an x - factor when it came to larger conflict. They were not a threat to Enorian or Bloodloch on their own but they could pick sides and alter the balance. Having those neutral cities also allowed Enorian (earlier Shallam) to go through shifts like the Sentaari and Mages leaving as they had a place to go.

    These days you're forced to co-operate along tethers but when you think about it, why should you all get along? Certain guilds will naturally ally along common lines but ultimately the organizations have different philosophies, they're not identical. They will clash over certain things. You see it in the real world with different offshoots of the same religion. These days the only internal conflict that happens is just a clashing of player personalities. You can't drive an organization in a more radical or conservative direction that clashes with your allies as it wont go anywhere. The Sciomancers can't become Liches and run off to Bloodloch as Toz stated.

    Battlelines have been firmly drawn in the sand, and in order to accommodate it, the grey that naturally occurs due to different philosophies gets pushed aside. The other problem with light / dark is that you're forcing two sides to butt heads and when sides are uneven like dark is dominant, people stop caring. In a more ambiguous world, there is internal as well as external conflict and Forestals and Enorianites will squabble, but ultimately band together and a neutral city may choose it's in their best interest to help.
    Post edited by Rowena on
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 2,272 ✭✭✭✭✭
    An impression I've had is that Aetolia is currently in a mode where a lot of the effort and work being put into it are for future development and expansion/rebooting, rather than moment to moment events. Not sure how correct I am. I don't know really anything about building/builders, but I have the impression there's at least few, and a lot of work that gets done there. So there's this huge hidden Aetolia that's being ramped up to.

    If you try playing my version of Aetolia, where you sleep or work through all the events, you tend to be forced to just appreciate what you get. I'm not that worried about more events or more lore or more this or that, I find myself being pretty bad at soaking it in. I play more for the people I guess. As much as I channel boisterousness and effusiveness I tend to be shy about those sorts of things a lot of the time.

    I like the version of aetolia with slightly less concequences, plenty of stuff being dumbed down has made for a much more fun and nicer and less chore-y game. I would love more things to "do" ala leylines and things like ciem or other smaller scale combat events (hunting grounds, fracture, whichever). It would be nice for there to be more routine sorts of conflicts, I miss things like capture the flag events and such. IT does suck when one side continues to dominate, but I miss them anyways!

    I don't know. I don't feel so bad about combat or tethers or things, I sure think some things could be better, but I'm still pretty happy anyways.

    I agree combat balance and the tendency towards perfect routes and AIs is an issue, and it's definitely one that's in the liaison hivemind. The medium is so ever-evolving that it's pretty definitive to say it's not at an endpoint, or anywhere near it.

    I don't know that I have a cohesive thought here. If you're not having fun there's no reason to be playing though!
  • SessizlikSessizlik Muffin Mage Member Posts: 491 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I Think that the thing that makes me feel a Little bored with aetolia at this time is that it feels too much like real Life. You bash, (which irl could be work), do some paperwork, hang with some friends, idle (or irl Watch tv). That's about it. There's Little excitement, nothing really that shows that this is an Amazing fantasy World. Instead of being a Place where I can escape rl for a while, it's like going from one routine Life to Another routine Life. I do the same things every day.

    I also miss out on all the big events because of my time zone. I don't like it, I Think there should be at least one admin that's not american, or with a different time Schedule, who could give a Little excitement to us europeans as well, but I have come to accept that's not the case. That's something I've felt for years now. When I started playing, I didn't care much about sleep and would mess up my day, just to be around during events, but I can't do that anymore.

    I try to find enjoyment on my characters, but sometimes it's difficult and Everything feels stagnant. There are things you can do to make things more fun for yourself, like creating new alts or guildhopping, but you can only do so much. I've Heard several times that I just need to get engaged in things and talk to more people and get out there, but that's not Always so easy. I try my best and yes, I could stop playing alltogether, but I don't want to do that. Aetolia is still my hideaway, and a Place I enjoy, at least in some aspects.

    Anywho, rage at there being 20+ leylines and I can't find them! I need to figure out what areas I'm not checking. Also rage at the plantation maze. That Place is horrid!
  • AarbrokAarbrok Breaking things...For Science San Diego, CAMember Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Sessizlik‌ Leylines are super borked or something, we got a bunch of people on them...never got them below like 18....

    Pretty sure something is legit wrong

  • IlyonIlyon Member Posts: 746 ✭✭✭
    Shrug, I dunno, I'm not really seeing much being different than it used to be. I mostly play for combat (what a surprise, there!), and that's in a good shape, and generally keeps getting better. Things are in a bit of a lull now as we're in one of the "one side is dominating" stages, but that'll change eventually, as it always did. Can't comment on events and whatnot, as I usually sleep or AFK through them anyway.

This discussion has been closed.