So do we have association laws, or don't we?

edited February 2013 in Harpy's Head Tavern
Here's the situation.  I didn't create this character to troll.  I didn't go into this intending to SPEND TIME WITH UNDESIRABLES and CAUSE TROUBLE.  It'll be obvious to you that I've played this game before, and extensively, and I have.  But none of that is the point.

My understanding to this point is that the administration have asked organizations to NOT make what are usually termed "association laws" - laws that dictate whom members of your organization may or may not be seen with, talk with, interact with, et cetera.  The conclusion that I would draw from this - and I'm willing to be corrected on it - is that they would prefer a more fluid, open response to interorganizational contact.  They would NOT like to place a hard barrier between the Spirit and Shadow sides of the game.  And I support this.

I also support the attempts to POLICE such contact between factions.  I absolutely agree that the "Lighties" should be suspicious of communication with "Darkies" except when attempting to save or convert them.  It makes perfect sense.

However, I DON'T agree that players should attempt to circumvent the administration's ruling by effectively enforcing an association law that is not on the books.  If you're told that you don't get to make a law vowing to kick people out if they talk to the other faction... that doesn't mean that you can still kick out those people and just not make a law about it.

The question is, how far is too far?  How far can we go in policing the behavior of our own organizations, without giving new players the impression that they will be kicked out if they so much as tip their hat to anyone considered persona non grata?  So I present this to you.  Is this acceptable behavior?  Is this amount of interaction with the opposite faction acceptable?  Where should we draw the line?  If we're drawing a line, should we make a law?  Does this defy the administration's ruling against association laws, declared or undeclared?

Gentle is interrogated as to his past, being a 60ish-year-old who joined the Ascendril at level five - fairly obviously a forgotten character, to anyone with interest in suspecting his motives.  He ends up speaking with a vampire and a Syssin in a bar OWNED and RUN by an Enorian citizen, this bar being intentionally run as a NEUTRAL location, and he is then further interrogated as to his intentions in that conversation:
http://pastebin.com/nDc46de1

Later, Gentle wanders through Four Corners and dares to greet Taygeta, which is apparently a crime for which the entire assemblage of citizens and council must interrogate him.
http://pastebin.com/1p3LmW4G

I recognize that there are moments in this and the previous log when I am clearly baiting people.  I'm not as innocent as a true-newbie would be in this situation.  But the fact remains that a ruling has been made against association laws, and yet we are still apparently enforcing them without the support of law.  Personally, I don't really care what laws an organization wants to make.  I don't care if an organization wants to RP being corrupt and completely countermanding the laws they have on the books, because that's the way they roll.  Sure, that works.  But when the admin tell you that you shouldn't do a thing... you don't really get to continue doing it so long as you don't talk about it.  From what I understand, that's not really the intention of the ruling.  Correct me if I'm wrong.

 I'd have waited until my inevitable out-citizening to bring this to your attention, except that I don't actually INTEND to spend time with the opposite faction on this character, because that's not really what I made the character FOR.  I made it to play, as I imagine myriad other people will do.  I encountered an individual and was then subjected to hours' worth of browbeating as a result.  I found it horribly unpleasant, and if I were new to this game and didn't have a certain amount of cynicism built up with regard to the playerbase, I would probably have not bothered to continue playing.  This has been my perception of the treatment this character has experienced.  I'm interested in your perspective.  Let's hear it.

EzraxMastemaKiyotan

Comments

  • edited February 2013
    To be honest, I never understood RP that leads Enorian's characters to share friendly drinks with and/or flirt with random vampires without reason. Unless they are Lexen and probably busy selling the Beacon out. :D It feels like watering down the game a lot. There should be more 'rawwwr fire burn heretic' and less 'hello you so pretty miss vampire want a drink?' in Enorian.

    Like you said, you are not a new player. Anyone checking your honours will know that. I don't think all these comparisons about "if you were new" apply here.

    I don't know anything about association law rulings or whatever, but it seems simple logic that Enorian's leadership can and should act against citizens that entertain vampires. I only took a very quick glance at your log, since I am headed out in a few minutes, but I see why your character landed in trouble for that. Your character defied less than subtle suggestions to leave, sold blood to a vampire as payment and flirted pretty openly with her. Duiran might be a better fit for the character, tbh, if you want that route and still stay on the lightside. That, or make up some IC reason for talking to vampires.

    Just my thoughts!
    MastemaCiarelleXavinNolaKiyotanAngwe
  • edited February 2013
    Certainly, that is a perfectly appropriate stance for Enorian to take.  It would even be perfectly appropriate to take that stance without feeling the need to lay it down in the laws.  And all of that would be perfectly fine.... IF the admin had not specifically prohibited organizations from establishing association laws.  That's why they don't have them.  That's the answer that nobody can give Gentle in this log - we do not have association laws because the GODS do not wish that we should have them.  But we still wish to prohibit you from interacting with certain people, so we're going to go ahead and do it and hope that the gods won't notice because we didn't write it down.

    It's easy to undercut these interactions by saying that a "new" player wouldn't behave this way or wouldn't be in this situation, because that can't actually be proved.  It's an ad hominem argument.  The fact is that someone DID approach it this way, and this was the response.  So how do you react to THIS response, under THESE conditions?
  • edited February 2013
    You sound bitter and in all honest the response you got was light compared to what other guilds/House/cities would do if you acted that way towards them.
    Carnifex failing since 2011. Fixes coming Soon ™
    ValenaeKiyotan
  • PhoeneciaPhoenecia The Merchant of Esterport Somewhere in Attica
    From my understanding of the whole association laws thing, they're allowed to exist so long as they're reasonable. What this means is that orgs can't punish you for simply talking to people on the other side or just being in the same room with them. However, it doesn't mean you can just do whatever you want. The intent is to allow interaction between the two sides without utterly destroying the RP of orgs. Most association laws I've seen, where they exist, tend to amount to 'Don't spend too much time around these kinds of people unless you absolutely have to. Don't get too familiar or friendly with them, etc.'.

    In this case, Enorian can't punish you for simply talking to a vampire, but at the same time, said interaction was more than just talking to a vampire. Letting a vampire feed from you as payment for anything as an Enorian citizen is kind of a violation of common sense, so of course they'd give you a hard time about it. And as far as I'm aware, they're within their right to do so.
  • edited February 2013
    Gentle said:
    IF the admin had not specifically prohibited organizations from establishing association laws.
    Um ... they did?

    And honestly, I see nothing wrong with what Enorian did there. If anything, they were being too lenient.

  • edited February 2013
    To be honest, I'm not really seeing where your complaint about anti-association laws is currently. I don't know anything about admin decrees on that either - someone who's played longer than me will probably get on that soon and confirm or deny it - but Gentle hasn't been outguilded. Cia gave him a "warning" after she found him defensive, not particularly contrite about any aspect of that except that he got caught, and generally pretty provocative. Disapproval and suspicion were expressed by various people but he hasn't been driven from the city with a bunch of torch-wielding zealots threatening him with immediate burning or anything.

    I'm genuinely curious as to what you think they should have done if not what they did. You've got a character that you've planted in Enorian, "a haven for all those that would protect Life and seek to end the Undead threat" and the Ascendril, a bunch of light Mages who, while admittedly probably the least extreme and strict of the Enorianite guilds, are still very much pro-Life and against the scourge of the big bad vampires. What did you think was going to happen? If you wanted a character that doesn't have to deal with that sort of thing, why have you put him where he is?

    I get wanting to explore conflicts of interest, have your character know something about the "other" side, etc. If you're going to have more than passing contact with them, though - and yes, letting a vampire drink your blood is more than passing contact - it seems pretty reasonable to think that there are going to be consequences at some point and to be prepared to play along with that accordingly.

    (Edited because I spotted a typo and wanted to fix it >> )
    Lianca
  • Consequences, certainly.  Disapproval, disapprobation, even hindrance of his progression through the ranks, certainly.  All of those things I would certainly have expected, had I created a character for the sole purpose of causing trouble.  And yet, though I specifically said I did NOT create this character for that purpose, did NOT seek out enemy-faction roleplay for that purpose, had NO specific interest in inspiring controversy or conflict... and yet, I have been being threatened with outguilding and out-citizening from the day I joined.  Is this the impression you wish to give new players?  I should point out that the first instance of overt suspicion came before I took any action at all - it came as a result of my character being older than a novice should be.

    No, Gentle certainly hasn't been removed from the city or guild... yet.  Had Taygeta remained in the guild over the past few weeks, I have a feeling that might have ended up a bit differently.  But the point is that you create an extremely hostile environment with no actual support from the laws your organization has set down - because you CAN'T.  Your organization has been BARRED from creating laws along the lines of those you wish to enforce, and yet you continue to enforce them with the defense that they "should be common sense."

    What did I think was going to happen?  Nothing, because I did not set out to troll or disrupt anyone.  I ran into a person in a bar.  I was very nearly removed from my city and guild for it.  And the general conclusion is that this is entirely fair and to be expected.  I believe I understand now.  Thank you all.
  • It's less that you"ran into a person in a bar" and more that you flirted with a vampire and sold her blood, I think. Even in Duiran that sort of thing wouldn't be looked upon kindly and Duiran's a lot more lax on its association policy.

    PhoeneciaHavenArbreLinKiyotan
  • PhoeneciaPhoenecia The Merchant of Esterport Somewhere in Attica
    In case you missed it, association laws aren't BANNED COMPLETELY as you keep insisting. Last I heard, they were allowed so long as they're reasonable and not completely barring interaction with opposing factions. Essentially, association laws boil down to 'no excessive fraternization with enemies'. It doesn't stop you from interacting with the other side of the game, but ensures that lines can be drawn somewhere for orgs where it's appropriate.

    No org can punish you for bumping into someone and having a conversation, and most don't, even in Enorian. They can, however, take action if they feel you're getting too friendly with people you really shouldn't be or doing things you shouldn't be.
  • Gentle said:
    Is this the impression you wish to give new players?
    New players generally do not have your "ain't no rule" attitude, making this a moot point.

    Mastema
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight School
    Assuming the Administration did make that decree (I vaguely remember something like this ages ago but I'm not entirely sure), I imagine the spirit/intention of the ruling was to not stifle role-play between opposing factions. However, lines can be drawn.

    In an organization where they want to exterminate Undeath, I think it is perfectly reasonable for them to act against a person within their own ranks that rejects that mission. Which is essentially what Gentle's conduct implied. "I don't care about the Undeath conflict and so I'm going to allow myself to be placed just a tiny step below joining the consanguine ranks as a means to pay off a debt/earn coin/whatever."

    As a player, I think it's perfectly fine to play a character that way. Play him/her however you want but you should also expect resistance/consequences for your actions down the road.

    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
    MastemaEdhainCiarelleLiancaArbreOrisae
  • Looks like some fun roleplay. But yeah, deal with the consequences. Those consequences are just opportunities for more fun anyway.
    CiarelleHavenLiancaLin
  • DaskalosDaskalos Credit Whore Extraordinare Rolling amongst piles of credits.

    In all my time as leadership of Enorian and\or the Luminaries, I have never once had an administrator or even an RP god tell me that association laws were illegal. For that matter, when the game was going through the polarization of Life and Undeath, I was encouraged to more strifctly enforce them to assist with the polarization. There is no rule against association laws, however, most of the player run organizations have moved away from them. In contrast to what Phoenecia said, an organization could have strict laws and enforce them heavily for bumping into someone and having a conversation. The Luminaries used to be that way, where we told our novii (hi, Kiyotan) that if you were in a room with a vampire trying to hold conversation, to leave. This was backed up by the Revelation, which was the guiding centerpiece of the guild. It wasn't until Macian became GM that we began to move away from that somewhat, and it's held true through mine and Aren's reigns as GM since.

    tl;dr There's no divine decree against Association Laws, it's something players hated being so strictly enforced so the -players- decided to move against them, but there are still standards for which you must adhere if you're going to be in a 'Light' organization.

    image

    image


    Message #17059 Sent By: Oleis           Received On: 1/03/2014/17:24
    "If it makes you feel better, just checking your artifact list threatens to crash my mudlet."

    Kiyotan
  • edited February 2013
     I know past Enorianite leadership who have mudsexed their friends on the darkie side. I'm not happy about it and the time these people were in leadership was probably the most unproductive time in Enorianite history. I think association laws depend on the city/organization to enforce and its more of an ic question than it is an ooc one, even if it takes place -in- the city and as a first time offender you probably just should've received a warning. However, letting a vampire feed from you is crossing the line and if I would have known that while considering whether or not to keep you - I probably would've suggested you be let go or at least put on probation. From a city standpoint, you probably should've been disfavored. 

    Honestly, Valenae, while a Paladin secretary, has sat in a bar and had a drink with Klonk while arguing against his life choices and commenting on how gross his teeth were. I was never questioned because I contacted a Herald and told them, 'Klonk is in the city, I'm having a debate with him. I just want you to know so you're aware.' It never became an issue. I never even got a warning because I communicated properly in character. I think secularizing the game is stupid and doesn't benefit anyone, however, you did not communicate properly and through the right channels, not only that, but you let a vampire feed from you and that, I hate to say it, makes Nola and the rest of Enorianite leadership right in this situation. I think they need to be more respectful of other players in the future. 

    EDITED: Because I didn't see the line about being fed from. 



      "To be awkward or unkempt, to talk or move wrongly is to be a dangerous giant, a destroyer of worlds...any accurately improper move can poke through the thin sleeve of immediate reality." - Erving Goffman



    1. Association Laws are not illegal. Phoenecia, and dare I say it, Daskalos are correct.

      If someone says 'Any Luminary seen speaking to a Syssin will be outguilded, uncitizened, and enemied for life" THAT sort of thing is what will get them in trouble.

      On the other hand saying "Spending recreational time with followers of Artifice or members of the Undead will get you punished" is really not a problem at all. We call that keeping to RP.
      LiancaMastemaAldricArbreLinAzraelNolaKiyotanCiarelle
    2. ArbreArbre Arbrelina Jolie Braavos
      I maintain the policy of "I am Arbre effin' Aquila, I do what I want to," and I think more a few people have experienced this.  As a Duiran citizen, I cross the boundaries of what is acceptable regularly, even in Duiran.  I get away with a lot due to some combination of people assuming I'm talking to a vampire about the cure and people knowing they can trust me.

      That being said, I've had RL -years- in which I've built up this RP to be able to cross the line while suffering minimal effects from it, and there are still lines I can't cross without getting into trouble.  If I allowed a vampire to feed from me for ANY reason, I'd be gone, instantly removed from city, guild, and order.

      tl;dr There are lines you can't cross - it's not association laws, it's RP.
    3. Arbre said:
      tl;dr There are lines you can't cross - it's not association laws, it's RP.
      It's not that you -can't- cross them, it's that if/when you do, there -will- be negative consequences, sometimes extreme ones. If you choose to do this, then you have, in my opinion and apparently the opinions of most here, agreed and consented to the alienation and suspicion which you have experienced, and which seems to be distressing you. If you want darkside interaction, you either do so peripherally, with some sort of stealth and discretion or you go with the blatant route and get what you got.
      ValenaeLuna
    4. ArbreArbre Arbrelina Jolie Braavos
      Yes, Amara's right, I worded it badly.
      Amara
    5. LinLin Blackbird The Moonglade
      This is what I like to call I'm-Too-Smart-To-Be Trolling. You're basically diverting our attentions from the actions Gentle took, which, even to this shades-of-grey hell-with-association diversity-loving bastard, looks like a fledgling Enorian openly disrespecting his city because he thinks he can. The RP your character is pursuing is designed to push the limits and patience of your IC superiors with exaggerated claims of Admin-approved policies, all disguised beneath a smug "come, let's be intellectuals about this" act.

      Socrates was much better at trolling this way. We call it Socratic Inquiry.

      The thread was pretty much done when Veritas posted.
      KiyotanHadoryu
    6. KiyotanKiyotan spectacular vernacular Summit of the Falconmount
      Valingar said:
      Duiran might be a better fit for the character, tbh, if you want that route and still stay on the lightside. 
      image
      Some may say we've lost our way, but I believe we've not gone far enough.
      image
      LinArbre
    7. DaskalosDaskalos Credit Whore Extraordinare Rolling amongst piles of credits.

      I don't know why no one else noticed this, but for a purported new player we're running off with our dastardly association laws...

       


      Gentle
      -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      General:
      He is 67 years old.
      He was born on the 4th of Variach, year 315 of the Midnight Age.
      He is ranked 753rd in Aetolia.
      He is a Citizen in Enorian.
      He is a Vagabond in the Fellowship of Explorers.
      He is a member of the clan called 'The Ascendril Order'.
      He is considered to be approximately 0% of your might.
      -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

       

      ...67?

      image

      image


      Message #17059 Sent By: Oleis           Received On: 1/03/2014/17:24
      "If it makes you feel better, just checking your artifact list threatens to crash my mudlet."

    8. KiyotanKiyotan spectacular vernacular Summit of the Falconmount
      He said in the first paragraph of the opening post of this thread that he is admittedly not a newbie.
      Some may say we've lost our way, but I believe we've not gone far enough.
      image
    9. EzalorEzalor Emperor D'baen Canada
      Hey guys. Lay off the poor guy for being nice to Vampires. It's just in his nature to be...

      (•_•)
      ( •_•)>⌐■-■
      (⌐■_■)

      ...gentle.
      image
      IosyneDaskalosHavenLinRhoAldricGhetzArbre
    10. KiyotanKiyotan spectacular vernacular Summit of the Falconmount
      image
      You're welcome.
      Some may say we've lost our way, but I believe we've not gone far enough.
      image
      OrisaeLinGhetz
    11. LinLin Blackbird The Moonglade
      /thread
    12. There really is no need to take a stroll down troll avenue. Make a point or leave it be.


      "To be awkward or unkempt, to talk or move wrongly is to be a dangerous giant, a destroyer of worlds...any accurately improper move can poke through the thin sleeve of immediate reality." - Erving Goffman



    13. Please close thread.

      ValenaeAmaraAldric
    This discussion has been closed.