Mafia: Nineteen Eighty-Four

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  • ValenaeValenae Member Posts: 595 ✭✭✭✭
    Also: 

    Ilyon was the thought police officer's target. The words were: Propose, consider, eliminate.


    "To be awkward or unkempt, to talk or move wrongly is to be a dangerous giant, a destroyer of worlds...any accurately improper move can poke through the thin sleeve of immediate reality." - Erving Goffman



  • IlyonIlyon Member Posts: 746 ✭✭✭
    Well played, everyone!

    Periluna
  • PerilunaPeriluna Member Posts: 509 ✭✭✭✭
    I wasn't crazy about the mafia not knowing each other. Made it a bit harder. Like... we had no clue about Malak. I got lucky with finding out all the main roles and Zun pretty quickly. Malak was next on my list when we lynched him.
  • IlyonIlyon Member Posts: 746 ✭✭✭
    Huh, the mafia didn't know each other? That's quite different from how the game usually is played.

  • ValenaeValenae Member Posts: 595 ✭✭✭✭
    In hindsight I think if I could change things around I would probably have substituted the reflector and TruthSpeaker for other roles (Medic, Lawyer) and clued the brotherhood and mafia in on the identities. The original plan was to shake it up and use investigative roles instead to encourage even more competition. But as Zun pointed out last night the Truthspeaker dying really crippled the townies.


    "To be awkward or unkempt, to talk or move wrongly is to be a dangerous giant, a destroyer of worlds...any accurately improper move can poke through the thin sleeve of immediate reality." - Erving Goffman



  • PerilunaPeriluna Member Posts: 509 ✭✭✭✭
    That's why I always like a NO LYNCH for the first round only. Gave the power roles a chance to actually do something.
  • AlexinaAlexina the Haunted Soul Member Posts: 851 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No lynch only benefits the mafia.

    Not knowing what the heck was going on as part of the mafia made the game more confusing than anything else for me.

    First night round, I voted for Zun.

    Second night round, I voted for Kiyotan.

    Third night round, I voted for Ilyon (kind of obvious he was the Democrat at this point). After I placed my vote, Periluna contacted me and she and Zun were already voting for Ilyon too. What confused me was how the mafia didn't get a majority vote after I died (Zun and Periluna should have killed someone with two thirds majority). The chance of the mafia actually killing their own people was just weird.
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  • ValenaeValenae Member Posts: 595 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2013
    I'd have to look back. I'm pretty sure it was because Zun voted for Kiyotan and Periluna didn't want to be the last mafia vote. She would've been exposed as mafia. 

    And yeah, I think if there's a next time I'll be more clear about the rules as well as trade the roles around a bit like I mentioned earlier. 


    "To be awkward or unkempt, to talk or move wrongly is to be a dangerous giant, a destroyer of worlds...any accurately improper move can poke through the thin sleeve of immediate reality." - Erving Goffman



  • AldricAldric Member Posts: 790 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Zun, you're a jerk :(

    Would somebody like to volunteer to host another mafia game? I think a plain vanilla one, no special rules, etc etc would be fantastic.
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    Feelings, sensations that you thought were dead. No squealin' remember, that it's all in your head.
  • ValenaeValenae Member Posts: 595 ✭✭✭✭
    Not I. 


    "To be awkward or unkempt, to talk or move wrongly is to be a dangerous giant, a destroyer of worlds...any accurately improper move can poke through the thin sleeve of immediate reality." - Erving Goffman



  • PerilunaPeriluna Member Posts: 509 ✭✭✭✭
    Val's right - at this point we still had no idea who the TP was and so I knew Zun had already voted for Kiyo I think before I knew he was the Bleeder (because Zun is impatient) and so I knew my vote would probably get me killed before we could find the TP. We ended up lynching him the next day round before I was going to visit Malak that night. :( Oh well. Still good game even if I was confused the entire time.
  • AldricAldric Member Posts: 790 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Alright, I'll host the next one, I'll just need people to stick with me a bit since I've never done it before, I'm getting my wisdom teeth out Tuesday, and Thursday I go back to school!


    image
    Feelings, sensations that you thought were dead. No squealin' remember, that it's all in your head.
  • ValenaeValenae Member Posts: 595 ✭✭✭✭
    Wow, you guys are starting class kind of late


    "To be awkward or unkempt, to talk or move wrongly is to be a dangerous giant, a destroyer of worlds...any accurately improper move can poke through the thin sleeve of immediate reality." - Erving Goffman



  • EzalorEzalor Emperor D'baen CanadaMember Posts: 1,307 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2013
    Just my observations as an outsider:

    I've played a lot of Mafia. To play a proper, engaged game is a much, MUCH bigger time investment than most people realize. Like...a solid 3+ hours every day time investment. For a game of this size to be played out to its full conclusion should take at minimum 50 pages of posts. A truly fun game of Mafia is almost completely decided through discussion and post analysis - from what I saw this game, most of the discussion was based around power roles and role speculation. Very few logic/reasoning posts (and those that were there were very short), lots of bandwagoning, tons of one sentence posts and random votes. A lot of people seem to flake out too, which is always the biggest headache in a game of Mafia.

    To give an example of the types of posts that should be happening in a Mafia game (WALL OF TEXT WARNING!!!):

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    Ace does not fail to disappoint.  This game should be a great example for how to play politics and how to play mafia.

    Lets look at Dreamflower's points against Ace.  First, she points out that Ace is tunneling off of very little information, and isn't looking at other people's suspicious actions.  Only a few posts into the game, Ace suddenly comes to the conclusion that I'm mafia because I'm finger pointing, and pushes that point through the thread.  Yes, I was finger pointing.  But why does this make me mafia?  Ace gives no such reason.  Instead, he continues to push this idea until it finally becomes the truth.  Between day 1 and now, Ace has successfully turned the small point about finger pointing into a mass lynch Incognito movement.  This is exactly what mafia wants to do.  They want to push bad lynches while inflating the notion that the target is "scummy".  Once the target flips town, the accuser merely points to the evidence that the "target was scummy".  And they are likely to get away with it, given the fact that they've gotten half the town to believe that "target was scummy".  So what has Ace been doing here?  He's been pushing a movement to lynch me off of shoddy evidence while hiding behind his "finger pointers are suspicious" shield.

    Let us examine the point about finger pointing.  Is finger pointing inherrently suspicious?  It is true that mafia want to lynch townies.  It is also true that it is generally bad for town when there are multiple candidates out on the field, each with shoddy reasoning.  It is also true that bandwagons formed on shoddy reasoning are anti-town.  The crux of the matter is that it is anti-town when townies are lynched on shoddy reasoning.  Ideally, the mafia want to push innocent lynches without being linked to the lynch.  Mafia want to start a bandwagon on townies without being noticed.  Why would town want to finger point?  Generally, it is a bad idea to vote without explanation.  Yet plenty of townies have done it, some to apply pressure (read: Foolishness in XXXVII for Seraph).  Inactives also tend to do this.  Is this pro-town behavior?  Generally not.  Is it an indication that said player is scum?  No, townies do this all the time.  So in general, while finger pointing isn't a very town-friendly action, it isn't a "scumtell".  It is a slightly anti-town action that may be good support for other evidence that someone is mafia, but it should certainly not be the basis for any scum accusation.

    The second piece of Dreamflower's analysis is critical.  She points out that Ace has literally ignored all my real contributions, hasn't criticized any of my actual points, and hasn't said anything definitive about anyone (except me and Radfield, who Dreamflower points out was also accused off of shoddy reasoning - Ace accused him because he started the Barundar lynch, even though we have no evidence of Barundar's town alignment).  Note how Ace also doesn’t respond to Dreamflower’s accusation, but simply points out some errors in Dreamflower’s post that aren’t crucial to her argument.

    If you go back to look at Ace's posts, Dreamflower’s accusations are accurate.  Ace ignores all my early game points about the politician/vote rigger combo, town roles, and thesis about how the game is progressing.  Now I would perfectly understand if Ace disagreed with my points (people like Radfield certainly did).  Yet he didn't do that, he merely ignored my post and throughout the whole entire game has refused to acknowledge the fact that I made some key contributions to the discussion.  In the meanwhile though, he attacks me for asking people to reread the thread without specifying anything special.  Its clear Ace is reading my posts.  Selectively reading, that is.  Ace is glad to point out where I'm scummy, yet fails to acknowledge some pretty important contributions I have made.

    Ace agrees that Kavdragon is suspicious earlier in the day ("something piqued my interest), prods him for a few pages in the thread, and even agrees that Kavdragon is timid, but then turns full circle and attacks me for leading the Kavdragon lynch.  This is an excellent example of how mafia play.  Ace is really the one who starts the Kavdragon lynch.  Yet in public opinion, I am responsible for the lynch.  Here's what happened.  After Caller and Ace get the ball rolling, I fall for the bait and go on a rampant lynch Kavdragon train.  My confidence and thread influence work in the mafia's favor this time and is perfect for Ace, as he can now do a 180 and appear to be "saving" Kavdragon while assigning responsibility for the lynch to me.  When Kavdragon pops up town, Ace immediately points out the Kavdragon voters as super suspicious while making himself appear like he tried to stop a town lynch.  But what did Ace really do?  He accuses Kavdragon of BSing when Kavdragon claims he is "trying to gather information", and tells Kavdragon that he won't live til day 2.  Later in the day after I have already started on the lynch Kavdragon train, Ace comes out and agrees that Kavdragon is acting timid, thus throwing more fuel onto the fire.  Ace never votes Kavdragon, and toward the end of the day, switches his vote back to me (from Radfield) and states that "suspicious are the votes on KavDragon".  Complete 180 from his previous (vicious) attacks that Kavdragon wouldn't live to see day 2 and that he was so timid.  Once Kavdragon flips green, Ace trumpets the alarm, cries foul, and pretends like he never had a hand in the Kavdragon lynch.  This is an example of perfect execution of scum play.  Ace shows a textbook example of how to effectively finger point as mafia.  Unlike me on day 1, he actively gives reasons for Kavdragon’s scumminess (the reasons are false scumtells, but they seem convincing as reasons nonetheless).  This accusation catches fire, which leads others (Caller and myself) to take notice and agree with them.  Once we build cases of our own, Ace then backs out right in time to pin the responsibility on me, using it to add fuel to the anti-Incognito case.  As evidenced by the fact that he uses the Kavdragon lynch as a reason to paint me red, Ace clearly did not simply change his mind about the Kavdragon lynch.  He intentionally started the lynch and blamed it on someone else.  Townies have no reason to start a lynch and then turn around and accuse people on the bandwagon.  Ace is hiding the fact that he was a major contributor to the Kavdragon lynch.

    Continuing on into day 2, Ace pops up and cries foul yet again after checking Radfield.  While it is very likely that Ace is a capitalist and truly did check Radfield, his announcement does a brilliant job of adding fuel to the fire and furthering his case against "the unRadfield/Incognito duo", which is a complete fabrication.  While it is true that Radfield has defended me, it should be pretty clear that Radfield is actually trying to think things through.  In any case, Ace's cries of foul play further cast suspicion on Radfield even though Ace never reveals what Radfield's role is.  Ace accuses Radfield for not following his own plan (hardly an indication of mafia), and announces to the world that Radfield "tried to pull some slick stuff", implying that Radfield has shady play without giving details.  Ace creates a drama about Radfields role, gives out no details, and uses this to further his anti-Radfield case (at this point Radfield is inexplicably tied to me in his eyes).  This effectively furthers mafia goals and places doubt on Radfield without Ace having to lie or show any real analysis.  Could this action have been done by a townie?  A townie has no reason to make a big fuss about Radfield’s role if it is not an absolute indication of scum.  After Radfield says that anyone who knows his role should understand why he did not follow his own plan, Ace accepts this explanation, yet still “wonders” why Radfield didn’t follow his plan.  Soon after, Ace drops the issue.  From Radfield’s explanation, it seems clear that Ace should’ve already known the answer before asking the question.  Which means that the only reason Ace could have asked the question was to cause a commotion and spread doubt about Radfield.  Ace makes no conclusions and provides no further insights.  His reaction to Radfield’s “its obvious” explanation shows that he wasn’t being inquisitive or trying to figure things out, he is intentionally spreading doubt.

    The vote list also furthers his case against me.  Note however, that none of this evidence singles me out as mafia.  He trumpets the "kill people on the vote list" mantra to make people want to focus on killing me instead of trying to go for some other suspects.  He accepts the vote list at face value, and frames any attack on non-vote list suspects as irrational and anti-town.  However, as I and others have pointed out, there is no real reason why we should have utter faith in the vote list.  Ace himself even admits that he believes that the possibility of having a framer/GF is high, yet continues to pressure people to focus on the vote list.  By focusing on the vote list, Ace is attempting to get townies to conclude on their own that I am mafia, once again without providing any analysis.  Here's how the psychology works: Ace emphasizes that 2/5 on the list are mafia and that it is irrational not to lynch off the list.  This causes people to think to themselves, "2/5 are mafia, so who do I think are the most suspicious?"  Given Ace's constant pushing that I am mafia, townies are likely to subconsciously come to the conclusion that I am mafia, especially if they don't have the time or the willpower to go back through the thread and do a careful analysis.  In essence, Ace's reinforcement of the vote list guides the players to the conclusion that I am mafia without him having to provide analysis.

    Once I nuke Chezinu, Ace again picks at the weaknesses in my posts while ignoring how my actions run counter to what the mafia would want to do.  He claims that I agreed that America was an anti-town role (I did not), that I am going against my day 1 plan (I did not have a day 1 plan), that if Chezinu flips mafia then I am bussing him (no reasoning), and that I am anti-town because I did not discuss the nuking.  Yet later he declares that "Chezinu is the obvious scum for sure".  Is not discussing the nuking anti-town?  Well, by itself, not discussing the nuking can by no means be claimed to be a pro-town action, but it isn't necessarily anti-town either.  I had many reasons for not discussing the nuke, including not wanting to be bought by a potential mafia politician.  Not discussing the nuke doesn't say anything about my alignment one way or the other.  Notice how Ace goes about attacking me here.  He tries to pin me on ideas I didn't say, paints America as an anti-town role, and questions how not discussing the nuke is pro-town.  What he basically does is picks out errors I make and questions how they are pro-town.  Logically, yes, not discussing my nuke is not pro-town (although its not anti-town).  Ace uses biased questions and frames them in a way that makes me look guilty, when in fact I am not.  He emphasizes things that are easy to paint as anti-town actions, while at the same time ignoring contributions I have made that show I'm pro-town.  This is exactly what mafia want to do.  But mafia is a game where you cannot judge someone as mafia just by how many sketchy actions they make.  Proper analysis considers all of a players actions and analyzes them in the context of “what makes this action an action that only can be made by mafia”.  Ace has not considered this, and his case against me is flimsy at best.  His points consist of minor “scumtells” such as being on the wrong lynch (twice now), finger pointing, picking America, and nuking without discussion.

    In conclusion, the evidence shows that Ace is undeniably mafia.  His actions perfectly align with a mafia mindset, and he carries out actions that could not be made by a townie.  In the Kavdragon lynch, Ace is hiding from the fact that he is a major contributor to the lynch, and with the Radfield day 2 commotion, Ace was intentionally spreading doubt.

    Ace has effectively planted the "Incognito is finger pointing and thus mafia" idea into people's heads.  Once I flip town, he will get off the hook because everyone will believe the "fact" that Incognito was scummy, when in reality, Ace has merely fabricated this entire idea.  This reminds me of the movie Inception, which, ironically, features Leonardo DiCaprio.  I must applaud him for this cleverly thought out humor.
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    These are the types of analysis that should be leading to lynches happening and Mafia getting caught (Ace was indeed Mafia in this game). Obviously not every post is going to be like this but when everyone is as engaged and into the game as this it's a really wonderful experience. Basing a game off follow-the-leader and power roles leaves many Vanilla Townies feeling left out and bored and it also has the potential of completely destroying the game if something happens like a crucial power being lynched/killed early.

    I realize that this isn't a Mafia forum and that many people playing are new to the genre but I encourage everyone to try an intensely absorbed Mafia game! It really is an experience like no other.


    Post edited by Ezalor on
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    Haven
  • AldricAldric Member Posts: 790 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Feelings, sensations that you thought were dead. No squealin' remember, that it's all in your head.
    KiyotanArbrePeriluna
  • EzalorEzalor Emperor D'baen CanadaMember Posts: 1,307 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yeah it's very consuming. It does get very addicting and fun though, I had to take a step back because I was spending way, way too much time playing Mafia.
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