The "Abuse of a Factory"

CalipsoCalipso Member Posts: 615 ✭✭✭
I think I at least had the right to defend this topic presented to the public and the apparent upstart one building caused a player (who isnt even a citizen). Firstly the post in question was

[quote]
I've made this its own thread since I don't want it clogging up discussion in the Ankyrean Anguish thread.

Apparently, a player (who will remain unnamed) took it upon themselves to transform the greenhouse in Spinesreach into a... factory. A factory that manufactures what, I'm not sure, since it's been ambiguously titled "Metalworks Industry Inc." Not all the rooms are finished, but the ones that worry me are "Mechanized Constructs Facility" and "Before The Heart of Industry", the former being a rather startling assumption of the game's tech level, and the latter actually containing a description of some gigantic, pulsating machine heart.

Now, said player has shown signs, before, of presuming on the game's lore, creating things from whole cloth that happen to encroach upon the established lore of existing factions and locations. When this begins to turn into visibly altering the game itself, however, I begin to worry - should players be given as much freedom as they have to mess with the environment?

My issues, in summary:
  • The existing rooms are vastly more advanced than even the things we've seen in Albedos. Sophisticated assembly lines, automation, and the above implication of creating robots.
  • The room names do not follow building standards, being written in title case.
  • Given that the altered room was a building, the city rooms outside of it still make references to the old greenhouse, which is bound to be confusing to any newbie who can't understand what happened.

[/quote]


Firstly it is no surprise to me that once again when change is actually given to Spinesreach to give it the representation that it was meant to have, rather than the quasi shadow-nature-life-death-neutral theme it has been nurturing, that a sudden uproar would assume.

As no one can deny, Spinesreach is considered the least important and general backwater of the cities, having no  focused theme, no prospects of "goals" and no overall RP. It attempted to play the role of "Neutrality" which in all itself tends to lead to confusion, mixes of alignments, mixes of classes, and generally bad game RP. With the latest changes in Spinesreach that saw it become a Republic and Senate (thank god for trashing the Ankyrean Conclaves theme), and then later the recent advances with Albedos in research and technology, the plan was to continue further on this route.

The removal of a player's beloved self-made greenhouse (1 of 3 in spinesreach might I add) was the first step to giving Spinesreach a much more darker theme and role, that of Industry. Spinesreach was placed in the alignment of "Shadow" yet had almost nothing that endorsed this. Simply tossing classes in there does -not- make it suddenly sinister. Spinesreach has been a mess in design for years, and when finally 1 person says "okay let's clean it up" the usual lax ones that sit back and do nothing get bothered that someone is causing dust with the sweeping and ask administration to make them stop? How is that even allowed that a non-citizen that has nothing to even do with the city gets a say in its advances?

I presented the concept of Industry as a continuation with the reformations in Spinesreach to -finally- give Spinesreach some character. The metalworks factory in itself was the first step in this, also from the impact I saw it cause in those that support nature, it did exactly what was needed, to cause lifers to have a solid resentment for Spinesreach. As for my design, there was -nothing- and I repeat -nothing- that was out of the context already presented from Albedos. The entire constructs were clockwork in design, there were steam-powered devices as seen in Albedos as well, and the "heart machine" was nothing but pipes, fumes and a roaring fire in the center. The "Mechanized constructs facility" was if nothing a redescription of something that has ALREADY EXISTED IN THE GAME. Spinesreach has 3 robots that are -already in it-, and even has 2 portal machines that teleport players around...and -now- people feel that it is against game mechanics? If some had waited to see the mechanized construct facility's description, they would have seen only large broken golems showing that the Spineans have been attempting to replicate the designs but failing miserably.

For all that hard work to finally give Spinesreach some character and actual dark role to be reverted because 1 player complained that their beloved greenhouse was being removed (something that shouldnt even be in a dark Spinesreach), then I dare say I give up trying. Let's enjoy stagnancy since at least no one gets crap thrown at them that way and is left alone.

I would like your thoughts on why the revert when everything in the factory was actually done per already existing mechanics, @Razmael.


YusriIllidanAarbrokTeaniPerilunaSaritaAmaraKiyotanRivasValenaeAldricAngweLinArekaSarkis

Comments

  • YusriYusri Member Posts: 73 ✭✭✭
    edited May 2013
    You had a literal goddamn beating mechanical heart, and walls and floors made of cogs, and 'mechanized constructs facility'.
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    AmaraKiyotan
  • CalipsoCalipso Member Posts: 615 ✭✭✭
    Yusri said:
    You had a literal goddamn beating mechanical heart, and walls and floors made of cogs, and 'mechanized constructs facility'.
    read before posting. Thank you
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2013
    While I kinda wish this had been left to us to handle IC, I was not a fan of the changes, for several reasons:

    - There was no oversight - large changes like these usually go through the city council, with a map and the proposed room descriptions listed, so we can ensure the theme fits and catch things like typos or capitalized names. 

    - The theme was something the city itself did not decide on. A shift like this should involve a lot of people, be that on the OOC level of "wow, this change will really tweak the city's outlook" or on the IC level of "do we want a giant factory next to the crafting shops"

    - A metal factory is a huge, toxic creation, with tons of slag and runoff. I visited a copper mill when I was in Mongolia and the mile-long plain of toxic waste adjacent to it was one of the most horrific and desolate things I've seen in my life. Done well, a setting like that could be an absolutely amazing thing in a game, but I don't know if it belongs in THIS game - and especially not in the middle of a city. We'd all be...dead from the fumes and crystallized chemical waste.

    That being said, having a divine step in kinda feels a bit meh, especially since we can't change it again now. I feel like we're being scolded as a city for misbehaving - we have already been reacting to the changes and discussing how to handle them and now they just got changed for us and we're locked out from any additional tweaks.
    Calipso
  • YusriYusri Member Posts: 73 ✭✭✭
    edited May 2013
    I skimmed your post because it hurt to read.

    Nothing you wrote is valid within the setting.

    Did you read any of the machinery's descriptions? How about the construct? Did you check the messages on the Apparatus? Do you have any -conception- of the tech level in the game beyond 'hurr let's have a literal floor of cogs for no reason because that's steampunk, amirite'?

    Here's a hint. Spinesreach is not steampunk. The extent of their cogs'n'pipes technology is a giant foghorn. You've taken the liberty of putting in a bunch of poorly researched, poorly conceptualized machinery that is way outside the established tech and you didn't bother to run it past the people responsible for maintaining the game lore before putting it in.

    Take this up with Razmael if you really are convinced you're being abused. The reality is that you aren't, and given that the thread already made on the topic was closed, the forums aren't the place to sook about it.

    You also need to proofread your descriptions, they were full of nonsensical phrasing and bad typos.

    EDIT: Whoops, that was directed at Calipso, not the two posts after hers.
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    AarbrokEmelleAmaraKiyotan
  • AarbrokAarbrok Breaking things...For Science San Diego, CAMember Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2013
    You know, I am glad I was not around for this.

    This is not the kind of change one should take the liberty of just doing for unicorns :D and giggles.  This is something that should be oversaw by the City leadership as a whole, approved by the elected Secretariat and then voted upon by the citizens, because THAT is the progress and change that Spinesreach has intended to create.

    Involvement
    Enthusiasm
    Transparency of the government.

    Overall, if you are priding yourself on tearing apart something without approval, and getting confused as to why people are upset, I must really ask, what were you thinking would happen?  Citizen or not, The game is not at the whim ever of ONE person for change unless it is a building you solely control or work for, IE GUILD leader, HOUSE leader, etcetera.

    Le sigh, im glad I am out of town for this one.
    Post edited by Kiyotan on
    Moirean
  • CalipsoCalipso Member Posts: 615 ✭✭✭
    Aarbrok said:
    You know, I am glad I was not around for this.

    This is not the kind of change one should take the liberty of just doing for shits and giggles.  This is something that should be oversaw by the City leadership as a whole, approved by the elected Secretariat and then voted upon by the citizens, because THAT is the progress and change that Spinesreach has intended to create.

    Involvement
    Enthusiasm
    Transparency of the government.

    Overall, if you are priding yourself on tearing apart something without approval, and getting confused as to why people are upset, I must really ask, what were you thinking would happen?  Citizen or not, The game is not at the whim ever of ONE person for change unless it is a building you solely control or work for, IE GUILD leader, HOUSE leader, etcetera.

    Le sigh, im glad I am out of town for this one.
    I in no way did this on a whim. For weeks I have been discussing it with several people and  the city-leader and got the approval needed. The greenhouse was a waste of space..literally giving nothing to the city. The Factory wasnt even finished before it was unveiled to the public and yes I had a project outlying the entire setup (albeit rather messy). I've understood that a different route is needed and i'll see to it that a more publicly supported and group consensus is put in it to get the job done.
  • AarbrokAarbrok Breaking things...For Science San Diego, CAMember Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You got the approval to design, NOT execute.  Just saying.
  • MoireanMoirean Chairmander PortlandMember Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If you mean project 132, that does not include individual room descriptions, and it's clearly a work in progress (the Inner Gate doesn't even connect to the Outer Gate). It was never brought before the council. Look at project 463 for an example of a fleshed-out proposal.
  • AlexinaAlexina the Haunted Soul Member Posts: 851 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2013
    I do not really feel like mechanized industry belongs in Aetolia yet. On the other hand, I think the situation would have been better handled by messaging Razmael or making an in-game issue. If someone came to the forums and went 'this and that doesn't fit into my vision of Aetolia, someone has to remove it' about something I had put into the game, I would be fairly upset. Especially if they didn't bother talking to me about it first. Just messaging Razmael or making an issue about it seems like the best way to go about things.

    Calipso:
    I think it's great that people are putting in effort in making changes that'll turn Aetolia into a better and more intriguing place. Even if this particular idea doesn't make it into the game, please don't stop trying to change things to the better.
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    Calipso
  • YusriYusri Member Posts: 73 ✭✭✭
    Razmael was messaged in-game before the forum topics appeared.

    Complaining that Razmael didn't talk to Calipso before removing it is invalid because Calipso should have been in touch with the Gods and the cityleaders prior to putting the room designs in place. If she had been, it wouldn't have gotten this far.

    Before you decide that this is a matter of people hating on Calipso for no reason, consider how many things were ignored or bypassed in the process of putting these rooms into the game.
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  • CalipsoCalipso Member Posts: 615 ✭✭✭
    edited May 2013
    Yusri said:
    Razmael was messaged in-game before the forum topics appeared.

    Complaining that Razmael didn't talk to Calipso before removing it is invalid because Calipso should have been in touch with the Gods and the cityleaders prior to putting the room designs in place. If she had been, it wouldn't have gotten this far.

    Before you decide that this is a matter of people hating on Calipso for no reason, consider how many things were ignored or bypassed in the process of putting these rooms into the game.
    Again Yusri you are kicking up dust for the sake of drama. Why on earth would the Development minister contact the Divine when they want to renovate a city owned building (please remember all that BUILDINGS are city-owned houses that can be adjusted to the development minister's ideas, and not actual terrain of the city itself)? Mechanics and commands were put in place to these positions for this exact reason, to give the Divine space and give the city flexibility in its designs. No rules were broken, no mechanics unheard of used, nothing out of the ordinary.

    If anything this all seems like the pout-fest by someone who got grumpy seeing their dream of "green spinesreach" replaced, rather than the idea of renovating a building without full consent.

    Edit: Im still surprised a player saw the need to rush to the forums, make a new thread complaining about a changed building in a city they are not even part of and were enemied to, and asked for administrative help to remove it rather than contact the  city  officials of said city. It all seems childish
    Areka
  • HadoryuHadoryu Member Posts: 173 ✭✭✭

    Calipso, you're building a strawman with the 'beloved greenhouse', 'dream of green spinesreach' and 'one player who was even enemied' BS.

    When vampires are having babies, it's an issue for the entire game and the forums are an appropriate place to bring it up for discussion. It's an issue that concerns the fabric of the game's internal narrative.

    When Spinesreach is suddenly building tech that's never been seen on the rest of the continent and people are finding it jarring, it is exactly as appropriate to bring it up to the entire community for comment.


    When you make RADICAL changes to a city without getting lots of important people on-board first, you'd better be one hell of a magnificent bastard, or you're going to have a bad time (such as the present).

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    LinPeriluna
  • DaskalosDaskalos Credit Whore Extraordinare Rolling amongst piles of credits.Member Posts: 1,516 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Calipso - Yea... you stepped out of line and got shot down. It happens, move on, learn from your lesson. It's taken a long time for me to be ok with the amount of tech we -do- have considering where the game came from, but a factory? Yea, no... I'm glad it got changed and wasn't allowed to stand, because it's a bit... meh

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    Message #17059 Sent By: Oleis           Received On: 1/03/2014/17:24
    "If it makes you feel better, just checking your artifact list threatens to crash my mudlet."

    TeaniPeriluna
  • EzraxEzrax Member Posts: 407 ✭✭✭
    This thread is dumb.
    SaritaAlexinaAryannePeriluna
  • PhoeneciaPhoenecia The Merchant of Esterport Somewhere in AtticaMember Posts: 796 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Being someone who likes rewriting city rooms or adding things to guildhalls or cities (I'm the one responsible for some of the rooms in the outer city, including the plaza gardens around the greenhouse), and has done so in the past, I can say right now that just because you have the ability to change stuff, it doesn't give you carte blanche to do whatever the heck you want. The Development Ministry exists so cities and guilds can expand their base of operations and add cool new things without having to rely solely on a god to help them, but there are unwritten expectations that most players and the administration have.

    Do the changes/additions fit in with the surroundings thematically? Do they fit in with the game as a whole? Does its placement make sense? How much is it going to cost? It's usually never a problem because even though there are no hardline rules, the playerbase has generally accepted that there are some things you can do and certain liberties you can take, but there are lines that are drawn, even if not explicitly stated. Players know they're there, and are usually quick to rein things in if they're out of line. That's usually why it's important to let the ruling council know EXACTLY what you're doing and how things will look - even if vaguely - so that there aren't any unwanted surprises further down the line. Is it an inconvenience? Maybe, but it's kind of important for quality control because unlike mortal builders, you don't have an admin reviewing your work before stuff gets put in.
    AmaraMoireanPeriluna
  • AmaraAmara Member Posts: 53 ✭✭✭
    Phoenecia said:
    Do the changes/additions fit in with the surroundings thematically? 

    This is pretty spot on to me - I don't think it's being mean or unfairly criticizing to point out that Spinesreach wouldn't just wake up one morning to an omgfactory without some RP leading up to it, establishing the lore of the industry and factory itself being built and becoming a part of the fabric of the city, perhaps protests or hearings on uprooting the gardens/greenhouse area and the residences surrounding it before it was built. These are issues that are important in a role-playing game, and are entirely aside from any style, grammar or mechanical issues people may be taking with the writing itself - there was no lore built for these changes and that alone is enough to render them questionable at the very least.
    EmelleLunaValenaePeriluna
  • KonnornKonnorn Member Posts: 300 ✭✭✭✭

    If you think about it, technology has been around in the game since the Dreikathi showed up. Clockwork thingies has returned to to Aetolia, and did a long time ago with the Clockwork messenger bats and the other clockwork animals you can buy in Delve. I don't know how the flying ships were flying, but I am sure there's some sort of technology involved in that as well.

     

    However, you can' just build a factory without having the backup for it. Spend fifty years in Delve, dissembling clockwork animals and putting them back together and you might be able to put up a small clockwork animal factory. But to have a big factory pop up just like that, with no real direction or story behind it, it just doesn't work. The idea of broken down golems is a good one, but there's no history or even any rumors of Spinesreach doing anything like that, so why the big factory?

     

    This is something that -could- be done, but it would take centuries to come even a small part. Don't stop dreaming about the future though. Start the rp at small scale now and if the game happen to move in the same direction as you, it might actually work out. And that really goes for any bigger ideas people might have for the game. Just look at the Ascendrils. Does anyone even know how long it took for them to actually become a Guild of their own, after they split from the Magi?

     

    So, in short: It can be done, but you need focused ideas, be prepared to fight for it for many rl years and then maybe, just maybe, it will happen. But even if the chances are slim, don't stop hoping and don't stop working.

     

    CalipsoAngwe
  • XavinXavin Member Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Konnorn said:

    If you think about it, technology has been around in the game since the Dreikathi showed up. Clockwork thingies has returned to to Aetolia, and did a long time ago with the Clockwork messenger bats and the other clockwork animals you can buy in Delve. I don't know how the flying ships were flying, but I am sure there's some sort of technology involved in that as well.


    Just want to point out that just because you have a clockwork messenger bat or one of the minipets from delve does not mean that the species and people on sapience understand and can make clockwork devices. Further, there's not really any evidence that the people of delve would let foreigners study their technology for any extended amount of time.
    Yusri
  • KiyotanKiyotan spectacular vernacular Summit of the FalconmountMember Posts: 639 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Calipso said:
    Firstly it is no surprise to me that once again when change is actually given to Spinesreach to give it the representation that it was meant to have
    The representation that you yourself decided it was meant to have?

    Calipso said:

    As no one can deny, Spinesreach is considered the least important and general backwater of the cities, having no  focused theme, no prospects of "goals" and no overall RP. 

    Opinion, and arguably so at that.

    Calipso said:

    It attempted to play the role of "Neutrality" which in all itself tends to lead to confusion, mixes of alignments, mixes of classes, and generally bad game RP. 

    More opinion. Political conflict can be excellent RP. From the perspective of its enemy, for example, Spinesreach is not neutral but opportunistic, and that is a good and exciting dynamic. Thus far, I only see one example of bad game RP, and it's the attempt to reinvent the entire image of a city by hamfisted and underhanded force.

    Calipso said:

    With the latest changes in Spinesreach that saw it become a Republic and Senate (thank god for trashing the Ankyrean Conclaves theme), and then later the recent advances with Albedos in research and technology, the plan was to continue further on this route.


    Flawed logic. Spinesreach was the last of the cities to max out their pylon, so why should their technology suddenly be more advanced than the other cities without any other RP? 

    Calipso said:
    Simply tossing classes in there does -not- make it suddenly sinister. Spinesreach has been a mess in design for years
    More flawed logic. Simply tossing a factory in there does -not- make it suddenly sinister, either. Spinesreach has indeed been a mess, but it's not the design that's the problem. You could move the Eiffel Tower to Detroit, but it'll never be Paris.

    Calipso said:
    The metalworks factory in itself was the first step in this, also from the impact I saw it cause in those that support nature, it did exactly what was needed, to cause lifers to have a solid resentment for Spinesreach. 

    False. And probably just plain fabricated. In character, the existence of your factory hasn't even become common knowledge in Duiran, much less resented. No one knows about it yet, so how could anyone care about it?
    Calipso said:
    I presented the concept of Industry as a continuation with the reformations in Spinesreach to -finally- give Spinesreach some character. 

    False. What you did was force, not present, a concept outside of the scope of the game to change the existing character of Spinesreach. The fact of the matter is that Spinesreach has plenty of character, more than enough for a lot of substantial, shadowy RP. But you shoved your personal agenda down its throat (with poor grammar, spelling typos, and a disregard for general building standards to boot), and are somehow surprised to receive almost universal backlash.

    Calipso said:

    I give up trying.

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    Some may say we've lost our way, but I believe we've not gone far enough.
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    LinRivasPerilunaIllidan
This discussion has been closed.