Announce post #3244: The Future of Mirrors

Autoposter · October 2021

10/25/2021 at 2:39
Ictinus, the Architect
Everyone
The Future of Mirrors

Hi folks,

Now that Earthcaller and Oneiromancer have been released, I'm able to speak some more about the future of the Mirror Classes project and what you all can expect in the future.

With this release, it was my aim to provide as comprehensive a package on day 1 of availability as possible. Alongside the immense volume of code and skill writing, this includes learning messages, a detailed HELP <class> RP document, sufficiently informative help files, fully written ab files, academy tasks, artifacts and their associated items, proper defence and affliction integration, and dozens of other backend changes that go unseen from the user PoV but are nonetheless essential to a stable release product.

Barring a few errant outliers and particularly fussy mechanics, I think we've hit that standard of completion and that is the level you can expect to see in the future.

However, getting this right means that the development cycle is a lot longer than what first may seem as simple as copying code and writing a few hundred lines of text. Buffering either side of the actual class development is the concept work, the design involved in devising appropriate equivalent abilities (something that for Earthcaller we were still iterating upon even on the morning of release), the supporting lore, and the release event.

With that in mind, our plan going forward is to aim for two pairs of mirrors to be released per year for a total of four classes in a twelve month period. This allows us to spend the appropriate time and effort on getting it right without compromising development time spent on other major projects or story events.

We haven't yet decided what the next pair is going to be, but there are eight classes remaining (Archivist, Ascendril, Praenomen, Sciomancer, Sentinel, Shaman, Teradrim, and Zealot), and you are welcome to comment in the forum thread for this post with your opinions and thoughts.

Penned by my hand on Gosday, the 18th of Midsummer, in the year 498 MA.

Holbrook · October 2021

My vote for Spirit Praenomen if only because going by the depth of lore having gone into the recent two releases, I am super curious and/or excited to see how this will get handled in Aetolia!

Aeryx · October 2021

Holbrook said:
My vote for Spirit Praenomen if only because going by the depth of lore having gone into the recent two releases, I am super curious and/or excited to see how this will get handled in Aetolia!

I have said this same thing for awhile and one hundred percent agree. I think it would be very fascinating to see how it played out, and almost assuredly imagine it would have parity and probably require Duamvi subrace like Praenomen requires Vampire subrace. I think they've also mentioned on Discord though it would almost assuredly have to keep Blood as a mechanic though because of the way it currently works.

If I had a second choice though, I'd probably say Teradrim. Would be fun to do crazy sand stuff at lessers, and also have another class that uses my level 3 statboost runes.

Bulrok · October 2021

Sentinel, Praenomen, Shaman, Archivist, Ascendril, Teradrim, Zealot.

I think that is the order in which most people find the most egregious of imbalances and would ultimately lead to a better feeling in the community once everyone has access to those skills.

Iesid · October 2021

I'd like to see Shadow get Sentinel: it would open up traps to Shadow and would get more eyes on the class as a whole. The same might apply to a desire for Ascendril being mirrored instead.

I'd like to see Spirit get Archivist or Sciomancer for entirely selfish reasons.

Illikaal · October 2021

Honestly, with how creative the differences are in the classes, I'm just looking forward to whatever surprise we get for the Shamans. I'm a savant for Dendara lore, and I can't wait to see what, if anything, comes of it.

I want Teradrim and Archivist, personally.

Toz · October 2021

I want Zealot so much. Purgatory is like deliverance and banish for people who want everyone including their team to suffer, and oh boy do I.

Bulrok · October 2021

If your goal is to spread fun across the game, you should never listen to Toz. If you, on the other hand, enjoy fear, hate, anger, and loathing? Do exactly as Toz says.

Edit: I am not opposed to Toz's way of life.

Oba · October 2021

Spirit Teradrim should obviously be placed in Duiran and have massive Droems instead of Golems. Just think of the interesting customizations people would do!
For those of you who don't know what a Droem looks like:

Roots the colour of dried blood dig deep within the ground to secure this massive, dwarfing plant. The roots themselves have numerous feelers upon them that move and caress the ground about the plant. They serve to scavenge food as well as aid the droem in movement. The ochre colour of the roots migrates into a number of lithe, delicate stalks, which reach well over ten feet into the air. Each stalk is a deep emerald, bristling with yellow-tipped, barbed thorns. Wide leaves stem off of the stalks, their weight supported by elongated, thin branches. A single flower, in partial bloom, is situated at the top of the center stalk. Heavy petals coloured like the rich sunrise open slowly towards the sky, proving a soft symbol of new life, among the severity of the stalks.

Eliadon · October 2021

If either Shaman or Teradrim are up for mirroring, both should be at the same time - due to the dichotomy of room control between the two classes AND some awful design problems that you'll need to deal with related to them.

From a group perspective -
Shaman overgrowth is how to counter sand. Teradrim sand is how to counter overgrowth.

Now imagine the fights for Shadow!Shaman and Teradrim both trying to do their offense.

And the same fights between Spirit!Teradrim and Shamans.

Do we want this to be a problem? Do we want this to be exacerbated by doubling the possible sources of sand and overgrowth?

--

From a 1v1 perspective -
Having a Shadow and Spirit class that fights over the same resource is going to devolve into obnoxiousness in 1v1s. If I can't use the overgrowth because Shadow!Shaman made the overgrowth, I'm going to NATURE CONSUMPTION it. If that's disabled for cross-tether overgrowth, then I'm going to leave the room and have my overgrowth instead. This already happens in Shaman mirrors, and will be exacerbated by Shadow!Shaman.

This is already a problem with Shaman vs. Teradrim, too - fights can devolve into who can spread their room crap better, with neither person making progress while they fight over it. Sand is more important for Teradrim than overgrowth is for Shaman for 1v1, but it's still a very binary fight condition. Either I have my room control, or you're allowed to make any progress with building up your sandstorm. There is no real in-between, other than spamming barrage I guess.

Escelika · October 2021

Has the concept/design of these classes been chosen or is it possible to submit an idea for them?

If it is still possible, where could one submit the idea? We had a discussion about a potentially good option for Spirit Praenomen yesterday and I thought it would fit nicely into the world while offering a significant boost to specific Spirit orgs.

Nipsy · October 2021

Id love to see Shaman/Teradrim released around the same time, I would also be keen to see SpiritVamp/Sentinel

Or the Mages....cause there is cool potentials

Elene · October 2021

I am fond, I think, of seeing Sentinels and Praemomen mirrored. Sentinels, for the sheer value of their skillsets and what they bring to the table, and Prae for the lore-dive. I am a deep, deep fan of Duamvi history.

Elene · October 2021

Bulrok said:

Sentinel, Praenomen, Shaman, Archivist, Ascendril, Teradrim, Zealot. I think that is the order in which most people find the most egregious of imbalances and would ultimately lead to a better feeling in the community once everyone has access to those skills.

I see what you did there. You didn't even include Sciomancer!

Eaku · October 2021

Sentinel is also, I have discovered recently, a very neat class to set things up for on top of having a lot of neat/unique skills, so I'd vote for Shadow to get sentinels pretty soon. I'd love to see how the animal companion aspect is handled, if it becomes something like corrupted animals or just a completely separate concept. Similar thing with Shaman, I'd be super interested in seeing how the mirror's concept would shake out because I think there's a lot of corrupted nature vibes (hello corrupted guardians of Dendara) that could be worked with if that's how the team wanted to push it.

Spirit Praenomen feel like an obvious slot in for duamvi lore and I'd love that personally (if also admittedly selfishly). That and if they are duamvi-related it'd be a clear Enorian class which I think is quite deserved as Spirit mirrors so far have been for a Duiran guild, and guildless. But admittedly I'd also love to see some sort of Teradrim mirror, if only because I think you could do some really cool things with the concept regardless of where you drop them (big elementals like the ones roaming duiran, or tie them to Ascendril and give them a focus on crystal magic in lieu of the actual earth).

Illikaal · October 2021

The more I think about it, I think Spirit Prae would go great in the Shamans. Enorian has Symbiotes for their special subrace, so I'm not sure why they'd get another. Of course, that's assuming ours is going to be tied to a subrace as yours is. Also their affliction pool being heavily mental based, particularly where phobias are concerned, fits the guild quite well. There's a ton of potential there imo.

Also @Eaku I think they've stated pretty hardcore they don't want to do like 'corrupted' or 'dark/light' versions of classes. It's why Earthcallers aren't walking around with Maces, Dark Angels, and Dark rites etc. I fully expect Shaman and Sentinel mirrors to be the same, where they don't use overgrowths or animals at all.

Church · October 2021

Dendara-themed fey vampires
Dendara-themed fey vampires
Dendara-themed fey vampires

Also for sanity's sake please be sure to give Shadow their Zealot either before or concurrently with Spirit Sciomancer to ensure they have psi hold monolith to counter labyrinth. Archivist and Sentinel should be released as a pair to make sure one side can't threaten Unravel and Spinecut simultaneously while the other cannot. Teradrim/Sentinel is going to be a bonkers comp and shouldn't exist on one side but not the other. I know it's not a comfortable thought from the workload or narrative perspectives but for team combat balance two sets of four classes (Zealot/Ascendril/Sciomancer/Praenomen, Shaman/Sentinel/Teradrim/Archivist) would be optimal...

Ehtias · October 2021

Shadow Sentinel as a Necromancer themed class that has abominations that you stitched together for the ents. Or a dragoon with a bunch of different wyvern pets.

Illikaal · October 2021

Church said:
Dendara-themed fey vampires
Dendara-themed fey vampires
Dendara-themed fey vampires

Also for sanity's sake please be sure to give Shadow their Zealot either before or concurrently with Spirit Sciomancer to ensure they have psi hold monolith to counter labyrinth. Archivist and Sentinel should be released as a pair to make sure one side can't threaten Unravel and Spinecut simultaneously while the other cannot. Teradrim/Sentinel is going to be a bonkers comp and shouldn't exist on one side but not the other. I know it's not a comfortable thought from the workload or narrative perspectives but for team combat balance two sets of four classes (Zealot/Ascendril/Sciomancer/Praenomen, Shaman/Sentinel/Teradrim/Archivist) would be optimal...

Inhibition exists where Labyrinth is concerned.

Hello @Bulrok

Nipsy · October 2021

If I get Necromancer/Sentinel with stitched abominations and undead minions.
AND get to be a Bone Boy....

My god you would strike my heart with the arrow of love.

Xavin · October 2021

I'd like to see spirit get Praenomen and either Archivist or Sciomancer. Archivist would probably be better because if you did Sciomancer, you would almost be required to mirror Ascendril for Shadow in the same round. I feel like Sentinel and maybe Zealot would be good picks for Shadow.

Also, I hope I'm not the only one that thinks that Spirit Praenomen should almost definitely be associated with the Duamvi. I know there's a lot of hype in previous comments here about a duiran flavor to that but I sort of feel like Duamvi already lends itself to being used at least in part for that class. And maybe for selfish reasons I'd like to see Enorian get at least one of the next Spirit mirrors since Duiran got the first and the second is largely associated with Duiran at least going by help files.

Naos · October 2021

Duamvi was always the Spirit equivalent to Undeath, not to Vampirism. I imagine that will be the case with the Praenomen mirror, and they’ll create another sub-race.

Eaku · October 2021

Illidan said:

Also @Eaku I think they've stated pretty hardcore they don't want to do like 'corrupted' or 'dark/light' versions of classes. It's why Earthcallers aren't walking around with Maces, Dark Angels, and Dark rites etc. I fully expect Shaman and Sentinel mirrors to be the same, where they don't use overgrowths or animals at all.

oh rip i somehow missed this. makes sense, though. would've loved to see something along the lines of a corrupted/shadowy nature class but maybe that can go to another mirror? I've no idea which it would be off the top of my head, though. I know current nature-themed classes are already quite metal (hello reclamation) but do think there's still an open approach for another way to work w/ nature, especially for a shadow-oriented class (exploitative instead of cooperative, or cooperative with more sinister (or just wholly unconcerned with the Cycle) aspects of forest spirits).

i think the only thing i'm really settled on is that I personally think the next spirit mirror should rep Enorian, i know Oneiromancer is city-independent but the help file does pretty much state that they're primarily related to duiran and therefore spirit.

Illikaal · October 2021

Naos said:
Duamvi was always the Spirit equivalent to Undeath, not to Vampirism. I imagine that will be the case with the Praenomen mirror, and they’ll create another sub-race.

Within that vein, it would certainly make sense for Duiran to get the Vamp race, and for Spines to get the Symbiote alternative.

Legyn · October 2021

A new pair of mirrors every six months or so is what I expected based on how long ago Revenants and Wardens were released, the producer changes, and all the other new features were implemented in the meantime. I look forward to it, especially if future releases are on par with the Earthcallers. I know there were some issues with the Oneiromancer release, but the Earthcaller event was extremely effective at getting the whole Shadow tether involved while maintaining the focus on the Terramancers. It should be held up as the gold standard for new class releases. The only problem I had with it is that it wasn't clear that a new class was being released when the event ended and the NPC whose name I can't remember gave their speech, but that's a really minor thing and the announce post went up a minute later, so the confusion didn't last long.

My guesses for the Shadow:

Syssin get Zealot, reskinned into a sort of Inquisitor class to better hunt the Shadowbound and other threats that require less subtle means.

Archivists get Shaman, powered by cursed items and extremely dangerous magical artifacts.

Praenomen get Sentinel. Nipsy's right, necromancers with stitched-together undead entities are too cool a concept to pass up.

Carnifex get Ascendril. They manipulate the elements by releasing raw killing intent.

Bulrok · October 2021

Legyn said:

Carnifex get Ascendril. They manipulate the elements by releasing raw killing intent.

> cast fireball
Bulrok wraps a big rock into some oil soaked cloth, before raising a tinderbox to it. In an instant the cloth is engulfed, giving off the appearance of a very large fireball. Bulrok faces Mjoll, rearing back the arm holding the rock. "Abraaaaaa," he starts, his arm lurching forward. "KADABRA!" He screams as he launches the fake fireball at her.