Delete Insight

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Comments

  • @Saidenn @Brax Then I'll make an effort to remember it exits and use it more often!
    Saidenn
  • TeaniTeani Shadow Mistress Sweden
    edited May 2021
    When it comes to insight, there are many different ways of handling it, just as there are many different ways if using the Think command. Some people project compete sentences,  such as "Ooh, that dessert looks delicious! I wonder what it tastes like...", while others prefer to focus on emotions, colors or images, like "A sudden urge to stick a finger into the whipped cream flashes through Teani's mind before bein suppressed."

    While some people might always try to act on what they hear through insight, I prefer to consider it like another sense, like reading someone's body language. This means I'm less likely to respond to the exact thoughts of my rp opponent, as instead I try to interpret a sensation. If it's too difficult to do that, there would be less chance for a reaction, and I'd likely just consider it as an enriching rp experience for me, personally. It's a bit less invasive, I think. 



    Haven
  • @Rhyot You continue to display a lack of understanding regarding the actual mechanics. Sliver is not identical to insight. Sliver is strictly targeted at a single individual and only lasts a set amount of time. Sliver also shows up on bell.

    Beyond that, you're advocating for a tool that many people make use of and enjoy in their roleplay to be removed because you simply don't like that they have access to it. But as @Sibatti pointed out, how many people actually made use of think prior to the insight ability being created? Most people didn't even know that that command existed.

    No one is forcing you to use think. If you insist on using something like it and having it be completely secret, most clients have a way to create an echoing alias. But the example you come up with is so...absurd. You literally are stating that you're not willing to engage with anyone who MIGHT be using insight. In this specific scenario, it would be your loss, not hers because frankly I can't imagine interacting with someone so hung up over something like this would be enjoyable.

    Sure, this could go the way of deceit skills but I would like to point out that those rolls pretty much always go in favor of the person doing the deceit. I would expect that if they did some sort of SECRETTHINK verb detection would almost always go in favor of the person making use of insight.

  • edited May 2021
    If you don't want people to read your THINK, don't use THINK. I don't think we need anything to address what ultimately feels like a non-issue.

    I deeply resent the notion of 'DEEPTHINK' or 'THINKSECRET' because it means everyone will just transition to using that and then we'll have a 'you may hear THINKSECRET' artifact in 2 to 5 years. Taking avenues of writing or performance away - or, more specifically, avenues of audienceship (?) - seems like an overall bad idea when those that don't want their thoughts read should be the one to suffer the onus of just not using a totally optional RP command.

    We need a "hey, I'm trying to speak to our storyteller/GM/DM" button - but it should not come at the expense of Insight usage or class flavor. In a private discussion, I proposed putting a cooldown on it so it doesn't become an alternative to THINK with less avenues of spying. I still stand by that after a few hours of consideration.
    Xavin
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight School
    I think Rhyot meant more that he'd deny the use of think because his character would take the extra precautions to shield his thoughts around telepaths.

    There seems to be two main camps here regarding the think command:
    • An inclusive use where think is primarily used to tell/enhance a story for both the audience and the player. It's more of a writing tool to tell a story and showcase insights into the character that might not normally be seen via emotes.
    • An exclusive use where think is primarily used to assist the player in maintaining their character. It's more of a role-playing method to keep in character like playing music in the background. I can see the merit in wanting to keep this private.
    I don't see a problem with adding a PRIVATE command for those that want it. At the end of the day though, THINK is a writing tool and as a writer, -you- are in control of what you type and input into the game. As Sibatti's already outlined, there are clever uses and methods that can be applied to THINK's usage while still denying people information.

    Other THINK examples could include:
    THINK "Wow, Sibatti sure is crazy." vs THINK Though the mental image of Sibatti begins to form, a deeper thought occurs just beyond the surface; simply out of reach. vs THINK "Hmmm..." vs THINK Your mind churns with thoughts well guarded.

    The mileage you might get depends entirely on the effort you want to put into the writing prompts but each are valid. It's all about what -you- the writer are trying to articulate to the audience if at all.

    That aside I do like the idea of a separate command that allows players to subtly communicate with admin in the room with them. A PRIVATE command could be a two birds, one stone deal.
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
    MoxieQelresRhyot
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight School
    edited May 2021
    Iesid said:

    If you don't want people to read your THINK, don't use THINK. I don't think we need anything to address what ultimately feels like a non-issue.

    I deeply resent the notion of 'DEEPTHINK' or 'THINKSECRET' because it means everyone will just transition to using that and then we'll have a 'you may hear THINKSECRET' artifact in 2 to 5 years. Taking avenues of writing or performance away - or, more specifically, avenues of audienceship (?) - seems like an overall bad idea when those that don't want their thoughts read should be the one to suffer the onus of just not using a totally optional RP command.

    We need a "hey, I'm trying to speak to our storyteller/GM/DM" button - but it should not come at the expense of Insight usage or class flavor. In a private discussion, I proposed putting a cooldown on it so it doesn't become an alternative to THINK with less avenues of spying. I still stand by that after a few hours of consideration.

    I think your concerns are a bit misplaced. A deepthink/secret/private command would not necessarily mean the original public command gets phased out of use. Those that wish to share and broadcast their insights will still use the appropriate command as they see fit. If you're worried about missing out on juicy or interesting writing prompts, consider the difference in those prompts had the person chose to take the advice of simply not using the command. You still miss out on the content. The only actionable difference is that the player gets to express their character with a game writing tool. Sure, they can code echos to replicate this or make aliases or whatever but what's the issue in affording them a game tool that helps them remain immersive for themselves? If the concern is more about IRE potentially using malicious business practices to in turn make the command pointless for profit then I think that's an unrelated and separate issue.

    Any type of cooldown or special restriction would be a bit silly and strange for something like this in my opinion.
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
    MoxieDrystinRhyot
  • edited May 2021
    Hey @Rhyot please stop taking my comment out of context (and a very different context--I don't even know where to begin with trying to explain to you that you wanting to rp aggressive and potentially triggering things to people and encouraging consent for those veins is like, massively different stakes to you just not wanting people to read your THINK commands) and using it like it's somehow your win button for this argument.

    It really doesn't look as GOTCHA as you think.

    Also, it's kind of an argument that we mostly seem to be agreeing on? Just the method of its solution is in debate. So it's kind of weirdly passive aggressive for...no good reason.
    LinXavinRhyotIesid
  • LinLin Blackbird The Moonglade
    If anyone missed it, the Bell tattoo should now let you know if someone in the room can see your thoughts. Seems like a pretty good solution to me!
    MoxieSryaen
  • RhyotRhyot Bloodloch
    Xavin said:

    @Rhyot You continue to display a lack of understanding regarding the actual mechanics. Sliver is not identical to insight. Sliver is strictly targeted at a single individual and only lasts a set amount of time. Sliver also shows up on bell.

    Beyond that, you're advocating for a tool that many people make use of and enjoy in their roleplay to be removed because you simply don't like that they have access to it. But as @Sibatti pointed out, how many people actually made use of think prior to the insight ability being created? Most people didn't even know that that command existed.

    No one is forcing you to use think. If you insist on using something like it and having it be completely secret, most clients have a way to create an echoing alias. But the example you come up with is so...absurd. You literally are stating that you're not willing to engage with anyone who MIGHT be using insight. In this specific scenario, it would be your loss, not hers because frankly I can't imagine interacting with someone so hung up over something like this would be enjoyable.

    Sure, this could go the way of deceit skills but I would like to point out that those rolls pretty much always go in favor of the person doing the deceit. I would expect that if they did some sort of SECRETTHINK verb detection would almost always go in favor of the person making use of insight.

    Ok. So you drastically misunderstand me, Xavin. I am well aware of the fact that Sliver and Monitor are completely different than Insight, due to mechanical/time limitations. However, I am putting them together because they are both abilities than be used to see what someone THINKs. Also you're right, I could make an alias to just fire off some echo in Mudlet. That's coding 101 and stupidly easy, however that steals it away from a Celani who I may or may not be RPing with to see his thoughts (which I am much more comfortable with than some random player in the room). That's not to say I don't use THINK when there are characters in the room that Rhyot trusts because they already know him and how he thinks, so it's not a shocker when he thinks something.

    You're right though, no one is forcing me to use THINK. However, the ability of Insight generally stops me from wanting to use THINK because as Haven pointed out perfectly, I prefer a more exclusive approach to THINK rather than inclusive. It's character thought process to me, not "Read my mind so you can jump on me for it" process.

    Also, I'm notadvocating for the removal of Insight or Think. I like using THINK and know many players (I've read all the RP logs) of people who use THINK and am of the firm belief that it's an absolutely wonderful tool to use for RP. What I am advocating for is a way to allow players a way to mechanically shield their thoughts from those who CAN use Insight, Sliver, Monitor, or other thought reading skills. You and Iesid are both correct in that we -don't- need a DEEPSECRET, PRIVATE, or DEEPTHINK command for privacy when you could just as easily create an artifact or enchantment. If they can make an artifact like the Bubble Wand to stop people from premote touching you, an artifact or enchantment can be made to prevent people from reading another player's THINK. You and Iesid are both saying that it's a non-issue to have THINKs invaded, but it's also a non-issue to create an actual countermethod for Insight and THINK listening abilities. Had this thread never been made, I never would have said anything and continued on my way... but since we're talking about it, let's talk.

    That's twice now. Like I told Sibatti @Iesid, do not bring in that extremist mentality of "If you don't like Y, then don't do X". It's not conducive to a proper conversation/discussion/debate, because I can bring up multiple situations where that could/should have been applied but wasn't and instead people got their minds in a bunch and things happened anyway. So let's not with that line of thinking. Thanks!

    Lastly, @Haven ABSOLUTELY NAILED IT!! While there is nothing wrong with allowing your character's thoughts to be heard, there is nothing wrong with allowing your character's thoughts to be protected as well. Not everyone wants to have their thoughts on blast, but still want to enjoy the use of THINK without resorting to the use of echos which have no mechanical implementation to the storytelling and inclusiveness of a Celani.


  • Personally, I think (heh) that insight is a really neat tool and I've been deliberately using THINK commands knowing people can overhear them (things like 'who's wearing that perfume' and 'oh gods what did I just wander into'), and I treat it more as an overt thought kind of tool. Random, subconscious thoughts which I'm sure exist somewhere for Jun don't get put into the thought command. So, for me - if STHINK existed, I would probably just use THINK instead in the same situations I have been. Jun's not exactly a pillar of telepathic fortitude.

    With that said - I'm fully sympathetic towards people who might want a separate venue to keep their character's thoughts more private, and would absolutely support the implementation of an enchantment or separate command for that case. I think it would just be something people would have to be a bit educated on the difference of, because I know a lot of people do use THINK for RP, on purpose, the way I do. It shouldn't hurt to have more options, and while some people might transition to the hypothetical STHINK anyway I think (is this even a word anymore?) otherwise those same people might just transition to not using THINK at all, which is a shame.

    I think.
    Drystin
  • edited May 2021
    I love the THINK command and I don't really see anything wrong with it. If I don't want people knowing what Sry's thinking in his head, I just basically uh.. don't use it.

    Even before bell tattoo picked up Insight (which I kind of dislike cuz it outs people as having Insight immediately), if I had a suspicion that someone had it up, I'd use the THINK command like "The shifting thoughts inside Sryaen's mind are hazy and unreadable, as thought he was consciously drawing a curtain across his mind". And even though I'd heard about Insight via OOC means on web and clans and such, Sry didn't know people could read thoughts that way so I played.him oblivious for a bit until he blew up on @Roux one day for parroting back to him exactly what he was thinking about.

    I personally don't have Insight, so any THINKs I do are purely for the benefit of others, and I use them to further add some depth to any RP I find myself in. Use the tool to your advantage and get it to work for you. That's really the best I can suggest.


    Tell me how I'm doing!
    (Web): Mileta says, "Okay... Sry is an edgelord..."

    (Web): Dreww says, "Sryaen just wants to be the best Dhar boi and slaughter everyone."
    SibattiJunSaidennTeani
  • ZeheiaZeheia Immortal
    edited May 2021
    Legyn said:

    I have the opposite problem. I learned about the Think command and forgot about it 5 seconds later because it seemed like it would only be relevant if a Monk was around and listening in, which I considered an extremely niche situation. Is it really that useful for Celani?

    Yes. It's actually just as useful to see what characters are thinking around each other, not just when they think I am/we are watching. The game would be a shallower place if the only thoughts I got from some people were just those they clearly aimed at me. How characters act in various settings has a great influence on how likely I am to interfere out of seemingly nowhere, whether you call me by name or not.

    To further that: I'm always more likely to watch you if you're in my order or interacting with me or mine. But. I have definitely popped in to comment/react on things that have nothing to do with me/mine just because someone thought something interesting. What someone thinks aimed at me is very different from the sorts of errant thoughts that many people have, that inspire whole conversations and new directions.
    She/her but also responds to they/them thanks to chilling as Somebody or other.

    If in doubt, please refer to the Forum Rules! If in more doubt, please reach out to a moderator.

    Act as you would wish to be treated.

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    SryaenLegynRhyotDrystinSibatti
  • I've never used the think command. Could someone just show me what it could look like, so I know? Would be neat to try and work that into idling at the inner gates.

     

  • <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
    <!DOCTYPE MudletPackage>
    <MudletPackage version="1.001">
    	<AliasPackage>
    		<Alias isActive="yes" isFolder="no">
    			<name>Think</name>
    			<script>echo(matches[2])</script>
    			<command></command>
    			<packageName></packageName>
    			<regex>^think (.*)$</regex>
    		</Alias>
    	</AliasPackage>
    </MudletPackage>
    copy the above and paste into the alias editor in Mudlet. yw
    LinRhyot
  • LinLin Blackbird The Moonglade
    Czcibor said:

    <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
    <!DOCTYPE MudletPackage>
    <MudletPackage version="1.001">
    	<AliasPackage>
    		<Alias isActive="yes" isFolder="no">
    			<name>Think</name>
    			<script>echo(matches[2])</script>
    			<command></command>
    			<packageName></packageName>
    			<regex>^think (.*)$</regex>
    		</Alias>
    	</AliasPackage>
    </MudletPackage>
    copy the above and paste into the alias editor in Mudlet. yw
    If you're gonna be a smartass you should do it right!

    Alias pattern: ^f(?:think|\<|\>) (.+)
    local thought = matches[2]
    
    thought = thought:sub(1, 1):upper() .. thought:sub(2, -1)
    if not thought:match("[\.\?\!\'\"\-]$") then
      thought = thought .. "."
    end
    
    cecho("<ansi_light_black>You think to yourself:\n<ansi_cyan>" .. thought)
    send("\n")
    EliadonRhyotHaven
  • Konnorn said:

    I've never used the think command. Could someone just show me what it could look like, so I know? Would be neat to try and work that into idling at the inner gates.

    If you mean what it looks like literally, you can config the text color but it basically just shows up as an echo for you. So if I typed "THINK Smelly perfume. Who wears this?" It would just return the line to me, minus THINK.

    However, from a third person view, I believe (I also don't have Insight) it would show as
    Jun just thought:
    Smelly perfume. Who wears this?

    If you meant more like examples of the sort of thing you can put in THINK, I think @Teani had some good examples at the top of this page, and there's some examples in Roleplay Logs too that I've looked at.
  • Ah, thank you @Jun, that's what I was looking for. Much appreciated! I was curious about if it said X thinks Blah blah or whatever it look like.

     

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