There have been no events and let's talk about that.

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Comments

  • KaterinkaKaterinka Member Posts: 1
    We used to have a paid part-time immortal storyteller. When she left the company, she was never replaced. Why not? That would solve a lot of problems immediately.
  • TetchtaTetchta Member Posts: 574 ✭✭✭✭
    The company line is that we never had a paid immortal storyteller, we had a paid immortal builder who kinda turned themselves into a paid immortal storyteller; given that this is something that is difficult to have metrics on (how much ROI are we getting for paying someone just for this role), Jeremy & Matt axed the position. Not a good choice in my opinion at all, but that's the tl;dr of what happened to them.

    It really stings, though, in light of Achaea right now getting not one, but three paid D&D writers for their game. They're not even the RP Story game LOL
    "We're taught Lord Acton's axiom: all power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. I believed that when I started these books, but I don't believe it's always true any more. Power doesn't always corrupt. What I believe is always true about power is that power always reveals. When you have enough power to do what you always wanted to do, then you see what the guy always wanted to do."
    -Robert Caro
    KaterinkaGhatzhjiaIesid
  • TetchtaTetchta Member Posts: 574 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 23
    edit: on second thought, what I posted originally didn't feel that productive, but yes, it's big oof and very frustrating as a player/customer
    "We're taught Lord Acton's axiom: all power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. I believed that when I started these books, but I don't believe it's always true any more. Power doesn't always corrupt. What I believe is always true about power is that power always reveals. When you have enough power to do what you always wanted to do, then you see what the guy always wanted to do."
    -Robert Caro
  • TetchtaTetchta Member Posts: 574 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 23
    Edit: honestly I've probably lost the plot a little and I'm sure my second edit wasn't helpful or productive either. I'm a little in my emotions about this thread so sorry if this was too aggressive. I'm tired and gonna walk away from this convo until I have something meaningful to contribute. Sorry @Rhyot
    Post edited by Tetchta on
    "We're taught Lord Acton's axiom: all power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. I believed that when I started these books, but I don't believe it's always true any more. Power doesn't always corrupt. What I believe is always true about power is that power always reveals. When you have enough power to do what you always wanted to do, then you see what the guy always wanted to do."
    -Robert Caro
    SaidennGhatzhjiaSeurimasIesidDrystin
  • GhatzhjiaGhatzhjia Member Posts: 1
    edited April 23
    As an Achaean player, I have seen more story there lately than I have seen in Aetolia at all.
    Consistent divine interaction, NPC's, storytelling....and if you dont Roleplay you get your credibility docked and lose the ability to talk, emote, etc.

    Seems the RP is far more enforced there than it is here.

    EDIT: Also, I am still bitter Eleusis got Toby Treacletart as an NPC from his city tours, he is the cutest gnome magi.....
    TetchtaArchelausNaosRhine
  • VharenVharen Member Posts: 253 ✭✭✭
    My roleplay scripts are broken, but I still like rp-pk events outside of foci and orrery.

    BulrokIesid
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight SchoolMember Posts: 2,419 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm a big advocate for people doing what they need to for their mental health. I totally get that. Do what you have to do. That said...

    Complaints are going to happen regardless and not every complaint has a reasonable and or satisfying solution. That's just the nature of life and dealing with the public/other people. But ultimately, unless there's like a systemic or critical failure that needs addressing or fixing that cannot be easily course corrected, the show must go on. It might seem heartless but that's how businesses survive.
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
    Callidora
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight SchoolMember Posts: 2,419 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Rasani said:

    Haven said:

    I'm a big advocate for people doing what they need to for their mental health. I totally get that. Do what you have to do. That said...

    Complaints are going to happen regardless and not every complaint has a reasonable and or satisfying solution. That's just the nature of life and dealing with the public/other people. But ultimately, unless there's like a systemic or critical failure that needs addressing or fixing that cannot be easily course corrected, the show must go on. It might seem heartless but that's how businesses survive.

    I'll be honest with you: an rp based game with a world that has little to nothing happening in it -is- a critical failure, in my eyes.
    My remark was more directed at the idea that people complaining meant that less content gets created in favor of doing other things. A job still needs to be done despite feelings. Deadlines still need to be met. Quotas filled. Customers served.
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
    RasaniNaosAlela
  • RhyotRhyot BloodlochMember Posts: 609 ✭✭✭✭
    You're all good Tetchta and I don't think your post came out aggressive at all, though granted I did not see the first edit but rather the second when the question of resources was brought up. So allow me to explain that.

    Resources come in three aspects: Manpower, Manning, and time. Each event, each orgreq, each message uses a bit of those resources to some varying degree. For example, if the mirror classes needed 300 hours of work by 5 people, that is the aspect of necessary manpower to get the job done on time. But if there are only 2 people available for that job (manning), then it's no longer 300 hours divided by 5 people, but rather 300 hours into the two. The amount of time you need to COMPLETE the event stays the same, but the time you HAVE available to you to complete is an ever changing resource based off real life activities, other issues coming in, and the inherent need to interact with the players too. So in all reality, that required 300 hours of work is ACTIVE time put into that specific event, not just general login time.

    While Aetolia might be making a profit, the paid staff aren't making any more or less than if it wasn't. At the end of the day, people are still going to pay for credits or invest their time into the game. So monetary value is actually not a real arguable resource in the aspect content being created. That argument is specifically towards manning and manpower. So the resources available to Aetolia is very limited considering the high turnover rate, the fact that not all Celani get promoted to God-status and some of them probably don't end up making the cut after a certain trial period. This makes their manning just as much of a variable as time available, while the manpower needed to complete a project grinds against them.

    If this doesn't make sense, I will do my best to explain it in better detail just let me know.


    Rasani said:

    I totally understand that some people are fine with no big events, but forgive my saying that the cursed event hardly counts as a big event.

    It was an event that didn't make a lot of sense in the context of how you rp'd with it, allowed for, from what I've been told by folks in the anonymous channel, toxic and weird environment and then, when it was all said and done it was just "lol you don't remember why you acted this way". We couldn't even -address- being cursed in character. That's not really an event, it's a minigame.


    @Rasani

    I will absolutely agree that the Curse event wouldn't count as a big event and that it would likely be more accurate to determine it as a minigame. However, in the sense of 'content', minigame perception or not, it was still an event that took time to build, resources to create, and then even more time to implement for player interaction. Yes, the Curse event was met with both animosity and intrigue but it was a unique event nonetheless. An event that ended up having communications sent up to higher HQ and was given a cease and desist order.

    Regardless of how we perceived the event/minigame, the fact that all that time was put into something that the players then immediately complained about to HQ will generally (more often than not) leave a very sour taste in the minds of those who were involved with it. Due to the nature of the cease and desist order, whether the team will admit it or not, it DOES have an effect on the mentality and motivation to create more content, events, and lore.


    Rasani said:
    I'm sure there are some people who don't like big events, just like there are some people who don't get the enjoyment out of bashing that you do. But there are plenty of us who WANT these events, and pretending that part of the game doesn't exist isn't going to help. If Rhyot shows up at a Templar event, yeah it makes no goddamn sense, but if you show up at a world wide one, people can rp being snots about it, but I would hope ooc people understand that it's a world wide event! If they don't, that sucks for them but can't relate.


    I'm really glad you mentioned this! Yes, you are right that some people don't like big events. Sometimes these small events are even more fun than big ones. However, previously in this same thread it was mentioned that even if it's a small event, people are so deprived of content and events that they'll even show up to those events even if it isn't for their org. From a Celani perspective, this is AMAZING! You're getting these people who they might not have otherwise been able to interact with and you get to interact with them! That's AWESOME!

    But let's flip the script now. If it's a small/big event for a specific org and people who would otherwise not really have any real reason to be involved show up and then are immediately killed and blacklisted from enjoying that event, you are spitting on the Celani that -made- that event. You are essentially telling the Celani that their work isn't fit for everyone to participate in and only -you- get to enjoy their hard work. This creates a vacuum where that Celani doesn't want to make anymore content for that specific org because then it will appear as favoritism. Why should they create more small org content when all you do is keep out anyone who you feel doesn't belong? Content is for everyone and so long as nobody is being a jerk about the event, let them sit there and enjoy the show. For a game that is deemed to be primarily RP-centric, eliminating anyone that feels like they don't belong at an event simply for showing up is a direct conflict of that RP-centrism.

    You mentioned that it would make no sense for Rhyot to show up to a Templar event, and in some circumstances you would be right. However, instead of just assuming that Rhyot is there to be a nuisance... why not ask him, "Yo buddy, why you here?" This not only provides a basis of very interesting RP avenues but it ALSO provides the Celani team more notes about all these character and gives them more incentive to be passionate about being a Celani and -maybe- interacting with these other players on a more consistent basis. After all, why -would- Rhyot show up to a Templar event? The Templars don't know, the Celani don't know. Only Rhyot does. Explore that! The Celani crave that inter-character interactions as much as the players crave events and content. It's a two-way street, you need to give a little to get a little.



    Rasani said:
    Org reqs and events are two different things. Nobody expected a world shattering event every single week, but it's been nearly 500 days since one. That's a long unicorns time! I'm not saying org reqs don't factor into the work load, they totally do, but little projects don't stop you from being able to at least plan the big project. People who have jobs are expected to multi task all the time, I don't see why this is any different for the paid staff of Aetolia. Volunteers, of course, is another matter, but considering we've just learned one of IRE's games has THREE paid writers, it seems like maybe the head hanchos could stand taking a little less cash to pay for us to have one too, 'cause lemme tell you, that's a SUPER bad look.


    Yes, org reqs and events ARE two different things, but as previously mentioned... time availability is a dwindling resource. While I'm not sure how much T, Raz, and K get paid to be in their positions, I would be willing to bet that it's nowhere near viable enough that they too don't have their own RL jobs going on, but regardless.... EVERY member of the Admin/Celani team -DO- have real lives. T took time out to get married and start his family, Raz cooks chicken in a microwave, K bashes his head into a wall when he has to deal with combat stuff, Zeheia has his/her family going on AND is planning his/her own wedding, Brax is doing Brax things, Tedrunai is off doing Ted things. Everyone has a real life, with real people, with real friends, real kids, and real EVERYTHING.

    Naos mentioned 80 man-hour weeks. In the previous paragraph, I mentioned 6 members of the current Pools team, equaling out to each person putting in 13 hours each to meet that 80 man-hour weeks. However, I do imagine that there are other members in the Pools that I do not know of or hear about which turns that time lower and lower. Now this goes back to manning and manpower that I previously mentioned, but also ties into the issue of org reqs. If an org req is going to require 12 hours of work and various players are pinging the Celani team on status updates every other day, that 12 hours is going to get allocated to the org req plus whatever additional org reqs are in the queue for that organization just to get those players to get off their back. That's 12+ hours that is no longer available to the continuation of World Event #321 or Small Templar Event #600. That's 12+ hours where the Celani bend over backwards to acquiesce to players who otherwise snub their noses at them when an event doesn't meet their expectation or then sit there and complain 'Oh well, thanks for completing Orgreq #123456. Why did it take 4 months to complete when you got it done in 12 hours from start to finish?'

    Orgreqs are not a priority, they're additives. The players make the Celani -make- them a priority because of consistent complaints, check ups, and requests on status updates. Even if your only message is, "Hey, just curious if ya'll need any clarification on Orgreq #123456." that it still a ping that makes them weigh your orgreq as a higher priority than investing those 12+ hours into World Event #321 or Small Templar Event #600. An additive is something extra, but not necessary.



    Haven said:
    Complaints are going to happen regardless and not every complaint has a reasonable and or satisfying solution. That's just the nature of life and dealing with the public/other people. But ultimately, unless there's like a systemic or critical failure that needs addressing or fixing that cannot be easily course corrected, the show must go on. It might seem heartless but that's how businesses survive.


    @Haven

    I agree with you wholeheartedly that complaints are going to happen and not all complaints are resolved in a manner that the players see fitting. However, this creates animosity with the playerbase because they wanted a different outcome. However, that's a completely separate argument to motivation and involvement.

    Every complaint made by players because of an event that had -hours- upon -hours- of time investment drags onto the Celani who spent that time making the event. The Celani are Celani because they have a passion, motivation, and desire to create content for the players and enjoyment of this game. If all they ever get are complaints, it effects their mental fortitude, their passion, their motivation, and their desire to create more content. Why should they invest all this time into the game for the players if all they do is receive hate for it? They're volunteers. They don't -HAVE- to be a Celani, they're a volunteer. If the players continue to berate, attack, and complain about the events that are made then eventually they'll step down. This creates a continuous loop of problems of content/events not being created that players then complain about, but then when the events/content is created the players complain anyway. It's a very unsavory double-edged sword.

    While the show must go on and events still need to be created, you do have to take into consideration the motivation to get those done. Especially when QoL completions are met with more praise than events.


    RebraLegyn
  • LegynLegyn Member Posts: 23
    edited April 24
    I bought a castle back in February so I could open it up and use it for RP, and I haven't had time to do anything with yet. Things kept coming up, both IC and IRL, so, yeah, I get that the admin has plans and that the plans aren't working out. That's been my situation at work for the last year, too. I'd like it if Aetolia had more going on, but I get why things are stalled, especially with the pandemic.

    Anyway, events are important to energize the player base and get things going, but I would be very happy with random bits of lore here and there that players could run with according to their imagination. The Curse event ended up giving me a few ideas for things I could do with Legyn.
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight SchoolMember Posts: 2,419 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Rhyot said:

    Why should they invest all this time into the game for the players if all they do is receive hate for it? They're volunteers. They don't -HAVE- to be a Celani, they're a volunteer. If the players continue to berate, attack, and complain about the events that are made then eventually they'll step down. This creates a continuous loop of problems of content/events not being created that players then complain about, but then when the events/content is created the players complain anyway. It's a very unsavory double-edged sword.

    While the show must go on and events still need to be created, you do have to take into consideration the motivation to get those done. Especially when QoL completions are met with more praise than events.

    Why should they? Because they volunteered to do the job. While I understand and can sympathize with having to endure the stress of dealing with the public, it comes with the territory of any customer facing business. There will always be people who aren't satisfied. There will always be people that aren't constructive or spit vitriol. Being angry and upset can have that effect on people. But frankly, if the complaints from your customers consistently outweigh the positive feedback, then there's a serious problem present and a course correction is in order. In my experience, these issues aren't really anything that more training and a disciplined framework of best practices can't solve or at the very least bring down to a reasonably manageable level.

    At the end of the day, employee/volunteer retention and customer service isn't a responsibility that ever belongs in the hands of the players/public. It's not that people shouldn't care about one another but Aetolia/IRE isn't in the business of making better people. Maybe some policies could be introduced to help mitigate the burnout by rotating duties or better protect their people or something. Hard to really say without data or an HR department but really that's for the people behind the curtains to decide and figure out their business needs. Not the customers.
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
    Alela
  • WjoltyrWjoltyr Member Posts: 13
    Here's my take on events. I'm sure it'll be unpopular. I might try harder if I cared. Whatever.

    I could take 'em or leave 'em. The time that they are designated to run, i.e. 1700 Eastern to 2100 Pacific, is literally the one time I can almost never play. As Brax pointed out, there are things to do. Tons of things to do. The time events usually run is the practically untouchable time. So, would I rather admin and volunteers spend time on events, or stuff I'll actually use/benefit from? I'll got 20/80. I'm not strictly selfish. Just mostly.

    Couldn't tell you a darn thing about narrative needs. I tell my own story. Or at least try to. I caught the end of the Revenant event because I logged in on my phone. I'm a Sciomancer, so I should have been really into it! It was about as fulfilling as a chalupa from Taco Bell. After the first bite, you realize you're playing with fire and you'll pay for it on the shitter tomorrow.

    Give me promos to spend money on. New classes. New skills. Mining. Air ships. Small-ish events to release them? Sure. I'm sure I'll use like 5% of whatever is released. Events? 0.05%. Orders of magnitudes.

    Like I said. Wildly unpopular. I totally acknowledge the value of big events. I could insert the "I hope to be part of one someday" meme, but that would take effort. They serve a purpose. I just... can't be bothered to care.
    BozDrystinRasaniLinIesid
  • EleneElene Member Posts: 274 ✭✭✭✭
    I prefer small events; these are the kinds that help with world building and story settings. Overarching big events that may change the perception of the world or impact several organizations are something that will likely take a lot of effort and time to put up, reserve that for when you really want a direction to push, just like when the War of Night clashed with the coming of the Baelak Shipbreaker.

    I heartily agree that volunteers owe us nothing. They're players in their own right who has decided that they want to try contributing to the story of Aetolia as a DM rather than a player. They are paid nothing, but they are spending equally valuable time to find their own fun this way. They should be held responsible for the events that they push out, I'm sure, but really, I think the larger part of the responsibility, if there is fair criticism on them, should be on the ones who approved the event and let them proceed. In these situations, it's live and learn.

    And I don't think the admin necessarily have to run events around 1700 eastern to 2100 pacific. Sure, it's the time where there can be a good mix of EU/NA/SEA people around to participate, but I think that events should also be held at timings outside of that, just so the spread of activity can be include more people who do not usually play around those timings.

    Imo, I feel there needs to be a good balance struck between having new promos/features and events. As we can tell, both would attract different amounts of player interaction and player retention. Personally, I enjoy having new things to toy with, but at the same time when the novelty of new things start to fade, there is nothing else to capture my attention with. What then? 
    Bruin
  • DrystinDrystin Member Posts: 147 ✭✭✭
    Wjoltyr said:
    Here's my take on events. I'm sure it'll be unpopular. I might try harder if I cared. Whatever. I could take 'em or leave 'em. The time that they are designated to run, i.e. 1700 Eastern to 2100 Pacific, is literally the one time I can almost never play. 
    This. There are a LOT of us who can't make the usual time that events take place. I actually enjoyed the curse event because it spanned several days and I was able to take part. But in terms of events that just happen after howling..? Whether it's a minor event or a major world story event, those still only cater to people in certain timezones with work hours that can accommodate.

    Personally, I would be happy to just have some active gods so that our orders aren't basically dead. At least that allows us to move our own personal stories ahead which is more important than the main world plot to some of us.
    SaidennJaamir
  • NonateaNonatea Member Posts: 37 ✭✭
    I can't even remember when I was part of a major even last with one of my characters. I think the Proxy wars? Before that, who knows... Because I live in the EU and most events are aimed to start at Howling, which is midnight-2am for me, depending on summer/winter time. I usually don't even bother to read the event posts, because why care about an event I can't even be a part of? And that is one of the things I see as a huge issue. I know all events can't be aimed to suit everyone, but at least try to spread things out a bit so others might have at least a chance.
    As for big vs small events, I would absolutely prefer smaller events and more often, because that would (hopefully) give more people a chance to get involved in some events and also giving room for others in other events. Big world-changing events should absolutely take place, but they don't have to be the main focus. Keep the game alive and more lively with smaller events that either cater to an order, a guild, a city or heck.. even just a random person standing around cause you are bored and wanna do something fun for someone else!
    DrystinNaos
  • NonateaNonatea Member Posts: 37 ✭✭
    I just want to pipe in one last time and say that I completely understand people having a rough time. Especially this last year. Covid sucks and it's not been kind to us, so I hope you don't think I am expecting a lot right now. I just want you all to do well and take care of yourself, cause that's the most important.
    However, as a side note, this has been an issue for a really long time, so it's not only due to Covid. I just hope that after Covid, when everyone's vaccinated and things are starting to return to normal, we could actually make the game come alive again.
    NaosDrystinMaira
  • JaamirJaamir Member Posts: 4
    Archelaus said:

    My gripe definitely isn't with the volunteers who give their time to the game for free. Ivoln's Order is awesome, my interactions with him have been some of my absolute favorite moments in Aetolia. Slyphe showed up just to RP tasting a pizza Archelaus to them, which was also super cool! I just don't get why there hasn't been any progress at all with major plot lines. To me, Aetolia feels really static and quiet.

    It feels like that pretty much any time of the day, from my observance when I log on. To that end, this resonates to my agreement of the last sentence of your statement.
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