Announce post #3136: Question Thread

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  • TiurTiur Producer Member, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 1,134 admin
    Lin
    I have two takes on Tiur's answer to story events, re: being unable to do fires, racial tension, etc. etc.

    1) It seems short-sighted, letting a few especially contentious examples paint the playerbase as a bunch of softies. Two spring to mind: the race riots in Enorian, while not the most exciting subject, weren't reviled because of the premise, but because they were one of the worst examples of railroading Enorian's attempt to do the right thing, producing a shitty outcome no matter what they did. Then there's Bamathis. I'm not as stridently against him as some of my peers, but I have to concede they have a point. He was several elements that, in isolation, aren't too bad (no one minds Abhorash being a straight-up Hitler Youth posterboy because he's evil in an interesting and unique way), but put all together made for a very unfortunate juxtaposition. These are two extreme examples and i think letting things like this limit your creativity is a mistake.


    Normally stories are a great way to explore topics. I just want to avoid hitting something that has too much emotion attached to it to do well. Currently, with the state of the world, a lot of story tools hit too close to home. We've got stuff, though! I'm excited.

    2) You connected contentious real world events with gothic fantasy. What's up with that? Give us some nasty Cthulhus to fight. Surely there's more in Aetolia's future than a fantasy analogue of BLM or something?


    Blaaaarg. Last year I was told that the Big Bad is too often a giant Cthulhu we all have to band together to fight! But I get you. There are more facets to Gothic Fantasy I can explore, it just requires reaching for story tools I'm not too sure of how to engage the game with. We all love Hill House, but how to sneak it in....
  • TiurTiur Producer Member, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 1,134 admin
    That's all for now! I'll reopen this and let people comment. Not 100% we should continue, but I do kinda like having a place that all these things congregate and get looked at as a group.

    I realize I skipped Elene's stuff.
    Elene
  • VharenVharen Member Posts: 252 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2020
    Tiur said:

    I realize I skipped Elene's stuff.

    Mine too


  • AzaraeAzarae Member Posts: 11
    Not really a question, but I would just like to say thank you and I appreciate the time you took to answer all of these questions.
    ValorieSaltzRebra
  • SessizlikSessizlik Muffin Mage Member Posts: 491 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tiur said:

    Teani
    A few more questions: What is the process involving player banning? As in, what steps are taken to determine if a player is going to be prevented from playing the game, whether it is short term, long term or permanently? What kind of factors play a role in this (money spent, IC actions, OOC actions, immersion breaking actions, all of the above)? What would it take to have this kind of ban lifted?
    My reasons for asking these are many, but I'll share one: at times it feels like some people are allowed to get away with far too much, making other player's time in the game miserable in may different ways, without any noticeable punishment.


    This is the question that's giving me a lot of heartache on how to answer, and I know this won't satisfy, but I'll try.

    I do my best to be as objective as possible. Some things are easy, like credit card fraud, but behavior is very difficult. Bug abuse is also easy; if you do it, and we can figure it as intentional, you're not worth it to keep around. Even abusive, mean, angry players are perfectly aware that this is a game and you report stuff like that.

    Behavior, though... first, I need to know about it. If someone is constantly nice in interactions with me, and never issued, I have no reason to go looking through things about how they act. Next, it needs to be in the game. It has to be pretty egregious for something in a chat program to make it appropriate for me to act in game, especially with how those things can be faked in reporting. Lastly, I use issues and player comment files to build a history. Someone with a history of certain behaviors that has received a warning is going to get worse and worse punishments, until they are gone entirely. Essentially "fired from being a player."

    I've almost never done that. Perhaps I should, but often there are two sides of a story. It's why I love IGNORE. If you ignore this abusive person, and they go around it to be abusive, that's an obvious, glaring rules infraction. I also cannot recommend this hard enough: Distance yourself from people who are 'bad' for you. You do not have to talk to them on discord, or pay attention to them whatsoever in game. I know that's not always possible, and I'm sorry. I do try my best, and I mean it when I say that I'm keeping an eye on someone's behavior.
    I need to comment on this. For those of you who don't know, I played Martinaux. I was harassed really bad by a player both IN the game and oocly. My FRIENDS in the game were harassed for being in the same room as my character. Harassed out of rping with me. I ended up retiring Marti and started a new character, but I couldn't break that fear of reaching out to people and start rping, because I was afraid she would find out and would harass those people as well, since she's done that to another alt I had. So I retired that character as well and started a new one. THE FEAR WAS STILL THERE!
    So, now I've stopped playing alltogether, cause that person simply took all the fun out of the game for me. And I know she's been doing it to numerous other people. I'm trying hard not to be upset with all the credits that unicorn cost me through all those retirements, but I will never forgive the game being taken away from me. And I have to put some of that blame on the Admins. You all KNOW what is going on. You KNOW who I am talking about and what she's been doing to so many people and you LET her do it. WHY?! I was told to report if she did anything even after I distanced myself and created new characters. When she still harassed my friends, speculating that certain new characters were me and talking unicorn, I told you, @Tiur, and STILL NOTHING HAPPENED!
    I miss the game so, so much. I miss the tedious bashing and having fun rping with people. I miss the friends I had, because I don't dare to talk to them anymore. It hurts. It hurts cause I can't play this game anymore. Because you don't stop abuse when proof is shoved in your face.
    image
    Rebra
  • SaidennSaidenn Member Posts: 106 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2020
    Sessizlik said:

    Tiur said:

    Teani
    A few more questions: What is the process involving player banning? As in, what steps are taken to determine if a player is going to be prevented from playing the game, whether it is short term, long term or permanently? What kind of factors play a role in this (money spent, IC actions, OOC actions, immersion breaking actions, all of the above)? What would it take to have this kind of ban lifted?
    My reasons for asking these are many, but I'll share one: at times it feels like some people are allowed to get away with far too much, making other player's time in the game miserable in may different ways, without any noticeable punishment.


    This is the question that's giving me a lot of heartache on how to answer, and I know this won't satisfy, but I'll try.

    I do my best to be as objective as possible. Some things are easy, like credit card fraud, but behavior is very difficult. Bug abuse is also easy; if you do it, and we can figure it as intentional, you're not worth it to keep around. Even abusive, mean, angry players are perfectly aware that this is a game and you report stuff like that.

    Behavior, though... first, I need to know about it. If someone is constantly nice in interactions with me, and never issued, I have no reason to go looking through things about how they act. Next, it needs to be in the game. It has to be pretty egregious for something in a chat program to make it appropriate for me to act in game, especially with how those things can be faked in reporting. Lastly, I use issues and player comment files to build a history. Someone with a history of certain behaviors that has received a warning is going to get worse and worse punishments, until they are gone entirely. Essentially "fired from being a player."

    I've almost never done that. Perhaps I should, but often there are two sides of a story. It's why I love IGNORE. If you ignore this abusive person, and they go around it to be abusive, that's an obvious, glaring rules infraction. I also cannot recommend this hard enough: Distance yourself from people who are 'bad' for you. You do not have to talk to them on discord, or pay attention to them whatsoever in game. I know that's not always possible, and I'm sorry. I do try my best, and I mean it when I say that I'm keeping an eye on someone's behavior.
    I need to comment on this. For those of you who don't know, I played Martinaux. I was harassed really bad by a player both IN the game and oocly. My FRIENDS in the game were harassed for being in the same room as my character. Harassed out of rping with me. I ended up retiring Marti and started a new character, but I couldn't break that fear of reaching out to people and start rping, because I was afraid she would find out and would harass those people as well, since she's done that to another alt I had. So I retired that character as well and started a new one. THE FEAR WAS STILL THERE!
    So, now I've stopped playing alltogether, cause that person simply took all the fun out of the game for me. And I know she's been doing it to numerous other people. I'm trying hard not to be upset with all the credits that unicorn cost me through all those retirements, but I will never forgive the game being taken away from me. And I have to put some of that blame on the Admins. You all KNOW what is going on. You KNOW who I am talking about and what she's been doing to so many people and you LET her do it. WHY?! I was told to report if she did anything even after I distanced myself and created new characters. When she still harassed my friends, speculating that certain new characters were me and talking unicorn, I told you, @Tiur, and STILL NOTHING HAPPENED!
    I miss the game so, so much. I miss the tedious bashing and having fun rping with people. I miss the friends I had, because I don't dare to talk to them anymore. It hurts. It hurts cause I can't play this game anymore. Because you don't stop abuse when proof is shoved in your face.
    Having held a position in my life where I have had to mediate between two parties, I feel the need to play Devil's Advocate to this commentary. @Tiur has the unenviable position to collect evidence from all sides, listen to both parties, and make a decision, even if that decision is to do nothing. I am not attempting to diminish your experience, nor say that what happened was not disturbing, awful, or unacceptable, but I also do not know the story of, the experiences of, or what was shared by the other party or parties involved.

    That is the difficulty with behavior. Experiences are subjective and colored by subjectivity. To use a hyperbole, we laugh and stare and shake our heads at the antics of those dubbed "Karens" in social media, but from their perspective they are fully justified in their response. Again, that is hyperbole and it is commonly accepted that, based on the actions observed by a large number of people, that their responses are incorrect to the situation.

    The Administration, I imagine, have to be extra careful how, what, and where they use their "ban hammer" on players, which is why we often see punishments that become more severe over time that eventually lead to a ban. That is the nature of mediation and governance when it comes to two parties that disagree on the behavior of one, even more when one of the two parties feels that the behavior of one should limit their access to a service. Before you can rightly justify to your company, to your boss(es), and sometimes to yourself, that a person is deserving a ban from the services provided by your company, especially for behavior, your case often has to be airtight and agreed upon by more than one party, as is the case with "Karens".

    Did the Admin drop the ball? Possibly. Did the person in question do things that deserve punishments leading up to and including a ban? Possibly. But without knowing both sides, the interactions, the behaviors from all parties, the actions of all parties, etcetera, it is difficult for me (as Devil's Advocate) to state that the Admin have a greater responsibility to ensure a ban is done when x player says it is justified. It is terrible anyone has to go through a situation that left you feeling as you did when attempting to enjoy the game @Sessizlik. I hope, in the future, you will find a way to enjoy the game, and the community, again.

    Edit: To clarify in case there is any misunderstanding: I do not defend, justify, or condone any behavior that can be classified as harassment or harmful to another player's experience. This post is, instead, an attempt to help provide insight into the position @Tiur or any other admin may be in when faced with a situation or situations that ask for or demand that a player be banned for their behavior toward another.
    Tetchta
  • TeaniTeani Shadow Mistress SwedenMember Posts: 2,204 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2020


    Wouldn't it be a good idea to actually answer all the questions? I thought that was the purpose of clearing the air before moving on. Leaving contentious questions, when asked politely, unanswered will not improve the situation. People will simply continue to wonder and question the Administration's handling of things even if you pass on the torch of customer service to someone else.

    Edited to add:
    Why are Minipets considered such a high reward as to compete with 20-30 credits rewards during promotions when they can't be traded in for that much? Not everyone is that interested in them.



    Archelaus
  • IesidIesid Member Posts: 169 ✭✭✭
    To elaborate on a previous question of mine - re: PvP systems or activity generators: are you open to the idea of a PvP objective that occurs much more often than our current ones and maybe encourages smaller groups of players? The frequency could justify that kind of slimming down of numbers - and the lower maximum roster size might increase the diversity of strategic options. The numbers don't matter too much to me for the sake of the question. I think there's a lot of untapped potential in that kind of format. You could probably place it in a contested zone or something?
  • SeurimasSeurimas Member Posts: 147 ✭✭✭
    are you open to the idea of a PvP objective that occurs much more often than our current ones and maybe encourages smaller groups of players?

    Isn't this just minor foci?

    Although, I'm kinda hoping the third production skill might be PVP focused. That could be fun. Since this is the question thread, I'll go ahead and ask: what is the third production skill? Please?


    Didi has expressed her esteem of you for the following reason: Smart organized leader.
    Experience Gained: 47720 (Special) [total: 2933660]
    Needed for LVL: 122.00775356245
    DrystinTeani
  • SibattiSibatti Mamba dur Naya Amidst vibrant flora and treesMember Posts: 359 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2020
    Why does so much of Aetolia's history conflict with itself? I'm primarily speaking about things that have been said/done in previous years (events, God/Admin directives, etc.) that are being directly contradicted now. These aren't even ancient, "oldtolia" things either - stuff as recent as 2015. There are very clear statements and plots that have taken radical 180s, or simply disappear when staff changes over.

    I've heard the argument that "not everything should be black and white" and I get that, but we have a significant portion of the playerbase that aren't playing by those rules, and just want to be told what to do, apparently - and are willing to do things like remove people/punish people for nuance. It makes for an extremely frustrating experience.
    TetchtaPhoeneciaArchelaus
  • TetchtaTetchta Member Posts: 572 ✭✭✭✭
    Tiur said:

    Blaaaarg. Last year I was told that the Big Bad is too often a giant Cthulhu we all have to band together to fight! But I get you. There are more facets to Gothic Fantasy I can explore, it just requires reaching for story tools I'm not too sure of how to engage the game with. We all love Hill House, but how to sneak it in....

    I will say that a trite storyline or event would be much better than absolutely nothing.
    "We're taught Lord Acton's axiom: all power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. I believed that when I started these books, but I don't believe it's always true any more. Power doesn't always corrupt. What I believe is always true about power is that power always reveals. When you have enough power to do what you always wanted to do, then you see what the guy always wanted to do."
    -Robert Caro
    GalileiTeaniArdent
  • AzaraeAzarae Member Posts: 11
    edited November 2020
    I have been thinking and I wonder why do Divine not push back more against mortals? Is it simply their choice or is there some rule against it? I myself would very much enjoy it if they would be creative in this way and I think there is some missing RP potential in this department.

    Like why do they rarely ever smite, why do they not mess around with people more and be mischievous? They could easily kidnap, torture, threaten, mess with them in a multitude of ways through being creative with spells or other sort of things. I only ever see, if rarely, a divine will smite a mortal but then they can just simply revive with little consequence. I get it the mortal in question would have to go along with most of these things and it may not be for everyone, but why not? Is there too much potential for abuse? They are gods and goddess afterall and should be able to do whatever they wish, even if for their own amusement at times. They would only have to worry if a band of mortals got together to destroy their shrines which could maybe start a holy war, or if favoured enough their own patron might step in on their behalf. Or maybe not, maybe they find it amusing too. But I'm sure in most cases it would be proven acceptable unless the god/goddess themselves were the ones picking the fight without any reason.

    Just curious as to why this is. It is RP afterall.

    edit: Also that goes for people whom are in their divine order. Should they if not so desire it be able to ask them to climb to the highest mountain and yell something crazy and then jump off if it gets them favour or grants them a hearing to get a favour, quid pro quo? I mean that example is kind of absurd, but again they are a Divine. The mortal could always refuse and take the long/difficult route too. Or again does that open too much up for abuse?
  • AxiusAxius where I amMember Posts: 364 ✭✭✭
    @Azarae fun fact. There was at one point an allowance for this. I recall a time where Iosyne tossed a couple of Her followers down the Maw in the Lair. It was a fun little RP interaction from what I heard, and it resulted in it being math'd out that the fall was long than it'd take to fall from the moon to the core of earth. (They were falling for something like 5 minutes, and someone did the math on that)
  • GavramelGavramel Member Posts: 38
    You would have loved original Khepri
    SessizlikMjoll
  • LinLin Blackbird The MoongladeMember Posts: 1,825 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tends to change depending on the prevailing culture in the Pools at the time. Back in the day we were pretty punishment/mettle/troll happy

  • TetchtaTetchta Member Posts: 572 ✭✭✭✭
    Tedrunai said:


    From my viewpoint (and I need to disclaim that this is just my viewpoint, not representative of all the Pools), players don't really take this sort of thing well. Creative punishments, even ones that are mechanically harmless, have a tendency to be received very negatively on an OOC level.

    From a player perspective, to weigh in, I remember getting fairly salty about the Herolt Bounty thing for the first hour or so. I got over it, and now it's kind of a fun RP thing for me (Tet having an unspoken rivalry with Herolt). I get the hesitation tbh, and not everybody is gonna get won over over time after the shock wears off.
    "We're taught Lord Acton's axiom: all power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. I believed that when I started these books, but I don't believe it's always true any more. Power doesn't always corrupt. What I believe is always true about power is that power always reveals. When you have enough power to do what you always wanted to do, then you see what the guy always wanted to do."
    -Robert Caro
  • AzaraeAzarae Member Posts: 11
    edited November 2020
    @Tedrunai Thank you for the insight on this. I was trying to start something fun (or atleast that is what I thought) with Omei with Azarae and was kind of wondering why they were trying to just put Azarae off, but this explains it alot more. Best thing I guess would be to forget about it, is abit of a shame though but totally understandable. Maybe one day in the future if things change. Last thing I wish to do is cause tension. Thank you again and I appreciate your answer.

    edit: Out of curiousity, how can you even approach someone in the pools and see if they are okay with it and tell them you are okay with it too? I mean are they not allowed to communicate in any sort of OOC way, so how do you even establish that? Considering there is a disconnect between adventurers and above...how is that even possible? How do you go about it? It would be nice to know how I can go about this so I do not step on any toes in the future, or should I just play it super safe and air on the side of caution and just never bother with anything cause it could be taken the wrong way, or anything else for that matter?
  • TeaniTeani Shadow Mistress SwedenMember Posts: 2,204 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wouldn't it be nice with some kind of config option where you foreswear your right to complain about Divine IC punishment? If you have that one actively enabled, volunteers can just point to that if you start getting OOCly salty or refuse to accept the consequences of your character's actions. Could even be set as a firm Admin punishment with a full day as a maggot if you go against it after making your choice.



    AzaraeValorieSaltz
  • ZeheiaZeheia Member, Immortal Posts: 108 Immortal
    Speaking personally, I don't mind if a player shoots me an OOC message (very rarely). If I don't think it's appropriate to respond, I won't. Definitely don't expect special treatment because of it, but sometimes it's good to know, for example, that players might want to continue something later even if they're leaving now, and don't have a good way to bring it up IC, or myriad other things.

    Again, personally, I have zapped (or creatively zapped) players, or done some creative (and usually very brief) punishments, after watching very carefully to make sure that they would be well-received. We want you guys to have fun. Something that is funny to us but would upset you all isn't actually funny to us and would never happen to you knowingly.

    If you want divine RP - reach out! We may not know you're seeking it! We enjoy a wide variety of interactions that you may literally never know about if you don't simply start. I absolutely won't reach out to players who show no interest in the character I play without a very good reason. Our temples are usually public for a reason, and we absolutely can hear you SAY or EMOTE with our names (as long as we're online/paying attention/available) and consider whether we should be reacting.
    If in doubt, please refer to the Forum Rules! If in more doubt, please reach out to a moderator.

    Act as you would wish to be treated.

    "It costs you nothing to assume that we are acting in good faith."
    SaltzAxiusSaidennAzarae
  • TeaniTeani Shadow Mistress SwedenMember Posts: 2,204 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2020
    Tiur said:
    That's all for now! I'll reopen this and let people comment. Not 100% we should continue, but I do kinda like having a place that all these things congregate and get looked at as a group. I realize I skipped Elene's stuff.


    Vharen said:
    I realize I skipped Elene's stuff.
    Mine too
    Teani said:
    Wouldn't it be a good idea to actually answer all the questions? I thought that was the purpose of clearing the air before moving on. Leaving contentious questions, when asked politely, unanswered will not improve the situation. People will simply continue to wonder and question the Administration's handling of things even if you pass on the torch of customer service to someone else.

    I realize you wrote that you were hesitant about keeping this up, but there are still some things up in the air. There have been fewer questions this round and three and a half weeks of keeping the thread open. 

    Pardon the frankness here, but it feels like communication and transparency is still an issue because of that, and that there is a reluctance to truly resolve problems that need to be resolved in order to move on. Having been in a discussion regarding one of those unanswered questions with you, @Tiur, I am aware that it is a minefield. However, waiting it out is clearly not going to make it go away. Is this how you wish to leave it?



    ArchelausSessizlikLinNaos
  • TiurTiur Producer Member, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 1,134 admin
    Okay! I'll close the thread while I formulate answers. I'm currently extremely busy running an event and coding, obviously. My goal will be to answer questions I unintentionally missed. Those that I skipped on purpose, I will try to find a way to explain why I am not answering them without causing any trouble. Some cannot be answered in customer service voice, and I need to debate internally the pros and cons of that.
This discussion has been closed.